Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Bill, I agree with nco here, for what very little it's worth. If you get T into the upper portion of the normal range, and symptoms don't disappear after a reasonable time allowance to let the system get stable again, then something else is up. By nuerotransmitter/hormone/etc/etc issues, I'd guess he's just pointing out that the body is a fine balance of many systems and chemicals to work right. My T levels, on TRT, are just fine, but symptoms still exist because my E2 is not being controlled well. Others have issues with Adrenal homones and or thyroid hormones. TRT isn't the magic bullet - but it's a good one to have in the arsenal. _____ From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of williamb11 Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 5:34 AM Subject: Dr. nco Feedback Friends, Over at Meso-Rx, more and more, nco is stating the following in his posts: " TRT ideally should have a target of getting total testosterone to at least 650 ng/dl, while trying to keep the testosterone mostly within the physiologic range, i.e. max 1000 ng/dl...If problems such as decreased sex drive persist when total testosterone is over 650 ng/dl, then testosterone itself is not the problem. There are other neurotransmitter/hormone/immune system cytokine problems occurring - which need to be evaluated and treated. " He seems to be repeating this a lot. 1.) Do folks here agree with this statement?? 2.) What does he mean by " other neurotransmitter/hormone/immune system cytokine problems " ? Thanks, Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Dave, Thanks for the note! This is why this forum is so helpful - I had no idea what nco was saying and your explanation makes a ton of sense. I wasn't thinking that E2 control was one of the " other factors " , but it must be - you're right. Prior on Clomid (50mgs. 3x week), my libido didn't respond until my levels were over 1000 - but this was probably because of anti- estrogen benefits at that level, rather than just T measurement. Now that I am on 200 T-Cyp, I was anxious because now that my levels are above 650, I am still not feeling sexual benefits (no morning wood, spont. erections, sexual dreams, etc.) and worry that my doctor is out of options and will throw up her hands and say " there is nothing else I can do " . I guess I am sensitive to doctors throwing up their hands and saying " it must be something else, as your T levels are fine " . This is why I was concerned by nco's words. My fault, not his! I have struggled for too long to keep hearing the same response... Bless you, Dave. Bill > > Bill, I agree with nco here, for what very little it's worth. If you > get T into the upper portion of the normal range, and symptoms don't > disappear after a reasonable time allowance to let the system get stable > again, then something else is up. By nuerotransmitter/hormone/etc/etc > issues, I'd guess he's just pointing out that the body is a fine balance of > many systems and chemicals to work right. My T levels, on TRT, are just > fine, but symptoms still exist because my E2 is not being controlled well. > Others have issues with Adrenal homones and or thyroid hormones. > > TRT isn't the magic bullet - but it's a good one to have in the arsenal. > > > _____ > > From: [mailto: ] > On Behalf Of williamb11 > Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 5:34 AM > > Subject: Dr. nco Feedback > > > > Friends, > > Over at Meso-Rx, more and more, nco is stating the following in > his posts: > > " TRT ideally should have a target of getting total testosterone to > at least 650 ng/dl, while trying to keep the testosterone mostly > within the physiologic range, i.e. max 1000 ng/dl...If problems such > as decreased sex drive persist when total testosterone is over 650 > ng/dl, then testosterone itself is not the problem. There are other > neurotransmitter/hormone/immune system cytokine problems occurring - > which need to be evaluated and treated. " > > He seems to be repeating this a lot. > > 1.) Do folks here agree with this statement?? > 2.) What does he mean by " other neurotransmitter/hormone/immune > system cytokine problems " ? > > Thanks, > Bill > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 Phil, I wrote this while you were away, hoping that you might answer when you got back. What do you think about my original post??? Thanks, Phil - Bill > > > > Bill, I agree with nco here, for what very little it's > worth. If you > > get T into the upper portion of the normal range, and symptoms > don't > > disappear after a reasonable time allowance to let the system get > stable > > again, then something else is up. By > nuerotransmitter/hormone/etc/etc > > issues, I'd guess he's just pointing out that the body is a fine > balance of > > many systems and chemicals to work right. My T levels, on TRT, > are just > > fine, but symptoms still exist because my E2 is not being > controlled well. > > Others have issues with Adrenal homones and or thyroid hormones. > > > > TRT isn't the magic bullet - but it's a good one to have in the > arsenal. > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: > [mailto: ] > > On Behalf Of williamb11 > > Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 5:34 AM > > > > Subject: Dr. nco Feedback > > > > > > > > Friends, > > > > Over at Meso-Rx, more and more, nco is stating the following > in > > his posts: > > > > " TRT ideally should have a target of getting total testosterone to > > at least 650 ng/dl, while trying to keep the testosterone mostly > > within the physiologic range, i.e. max 1000 ng/dl...If problems > such > > as decreased sex drive persist when total testosterone is over 650 > > ng/dl, then testosterone itself is not the problem. There are > other > > neurotransmitter/hormone/immune system cytokine problems > occurring - > > which need to be evaluated and treated. " > > > > He seems to be repeating this a lot. > > > > 1.) Do folks here agree with this statement?? > > 2.) What does he mean by " other neurotransmitter/hormone/immune > > system cytokine problems " ? > > > > Thanks, > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2006 Report Share Posted November 8, 2006 That is a hard one there are so many things that can go wrong. Take my case been on TRT for over 23 yrs always told I am Primary. Never felt 100% on TRT last yr. I tried HCG and my levels doubled. My Testis were the size of small grapes and they came back to what they were in size when I was in my 20's. Last yr. I felt so dam good doing T shots 150mgs a week and HCG 500 IU's 3 times a week. I am 63 befrore doing the shots my joints and muscles were so sore I was house bound and had a hard time walking. On shots and HCG I was out walking and started going to the gym and working out on machines 3 days a week. I lost over 65lbs. and my life was dam good. Then winter came and I get sick every winter with Bronchitis last winter was the wost ever. I was set back on my ass and still today not back to what I was last yr. As it turns out I am not primary but Seconday do to a bad head injury some 23 yrs. ago. If I was seeing a Dr. like nco this would have been cought right away. Turns out my labs were screaming this problem and every dam Dr. I seen missed it. Now I am treating low DHEA, Cortosol, Thyroid, IGF-1 and Glucose. I have just started 3 months ago and it is slow getting them levels up. I have to say that when I had my T levels up in the upper 1/3 of my labs range for a young man and my E2 down between 10 to 30 my sex life was dam good and still is. You need to start some where and T and E2 are a good start but if you have a Thyroid and Adrenal problem the changes in T and E2 have a big effect on there levels. I have to go when most everything Dr. nco says after all it was him that got me on the right track. You have to understand that I have read every post he ever did I was a member when he started posting. The best thing anyone can do is to read all of his posts. Just click on his nick and then click on all of his posts then they will all come up. Phil williamb11 <no_reply > wrote: Phil, I wrote this while you were away, hoping that you might answer when you got back. What do you think about my original post??? Thanks, Phil - Bill > > > > Bill, I agree with nco here, for what very little it's > worth. If you > > get T into the upper portion of the normal range, and symptoms > don't > > disappear after a reasonable time allowance to let the system get > stable > > again, then something else is up. By > nuerotransmitter/hormone/etc/etc > > issues, I'd guess he's just pointing out that the body is a fine > balance of > > many systems and chemicals to work right. My T levels, on TRT, > are just > > fine, but symptoms still exist because my E2 is not being > controlled well. > > Others have issues with Adrenal homones and or thyroid hormones. > > > > TRT isn't the magic bullet - but it's a good one to have in the > arsenal. > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: > [mailto: ] > > On Behalf Of williamb11 > > Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 5:34 AM > > > > Subject: Dr. nco Feedback > > > > > > > > Friends, > > > > Over at Meso-Rx, more and more, nco is stating the following > in > > his posts: > > > > " TRT ideally should have a target of getting total testosterone to > > at least 650 ng/dl, while trying to keep the testosterone mostly > > within the physiologic range, i.e. max 1000 ng/dl...If problems > such > > as decreased sex drive persist when total testosterone is over 650 > > ng/dl, then testosterone itself is not the problem. There are > other > > neurotransmitter/hormone/immune system cytokine problems > occurring - > > which need to be evaluated and treated. " > > > > He seems to be repeating this a lot. > > > > 1.) Do folks here agree with this statement?? > > 2.) What does he mean by " other neurotransmitter/hormone/immune > > system cytokine problems " ? > > > > Thanks, > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Phil, Are you saying that your joint pain went away when you started to inject HCG? Just want to be clear. I too have joint pain. I have recently worked with my doctor to allow more frequent injections. The next item is the E2 control. I may be interested in the HCG if joints still continue to be tender. My next milestone is to get level above 650 for Total T on weekly shots of ..5 ml of 200 strength T-enanthate. Say six weeks of this and test for T and E2. I am 40, primary, been on 150 mg of T-enanthate for the last 5 months (two week injections). The first month I was on 200mg of T every two weeks. I felt not bad for this timeframe. Then the dose was reduce to 100 for a week then brought back up to 150 until now. I felt very bad at 100 and marginally better at 150. Now I am at 100mg per week. Louis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 Maybe I am not dealing with the question asked! I am using androgel and I noticed with surprize taht when I use a bit of my daily gel on the joints of my hand and on my chronically sore left ankle (sequel of a car accident 50 years ago) the pain disapears for a few days! Hervé > > Phil, > > Are you saying that your joint pain went away when you started to inject > HCG? Just want to be clear. > > I too have joint pain. I have recently worked with my doctor to allow more > frequent injections. The next item is the E2 control. I may be interested in > the HCG if joints still continue to be tender. > > My next milestone is to get level above 650 for Total T on weekly shots of > .5 ml of 200 strength T-enanthate. Say six weeks of this and test for T and > E2. > > I am 40, primary, been on 150 mg of T-enanthate for the last 5 months (two > week injections). The first month I was on 200mg of T every two weeks. I felt > not bad for this timeframe. Then the dose was reduce to 100 for a week then > brought back up to 150 until now. I felt very bad at 100 and marginally better > at 150. Now I am at 100mg per week. > > Louis > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 Maybe I am of topic, but when I massage part of my dailly androgel on my chronically sore ankle, the pain dispears for about a week! Hervé > > Phil, > > Are you saying that your joint pain went away when you started to inject > HCG? Just want to be clear. > > I too have joint pain. I have recently worked with my doctor to allow more > frequent injections. The next item is the E2 control. I may be interested in > the HCG if joints still continue to be tender. > > My next milestone is to get level above 650 for Total T on weekly shots of > .5 ml of 200 strength T-enanthate. Say six weeks of this and test for T and > E2. > > I am 40, primary, been on 150 mg of T-enanthate for the last 5 months (two > week injections). The first month I was on 200mg of T every two weeks. I felt > not bad for this timeframe. Then the dose was reduce to 100 for a week then > brought back up to 150 until now. I felt very bad at 100 and marginally better > at 150. Now I am at 100mg per week. > > Louis > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 Hi Louis, I was on Gels Androgel then Testim doing this for yrs. I started getting sore joints and muscles. My back got so bad we did an MRI on it it showed some small problems but they should not have caused this much pain. When I switched to Shots of Depo T starting at 100mgs. a week I started to get better I was so bad I could hardly walk. I have been told I am Primary for 22 yrs. And my Dr. felt the pain was do to my age 63 and arthritis. When we did a test in 4 weeks my levels for Total were 600 but my labs range is 262 to 1593 so this is to dam low and I was feeling it. So he upped the dose to 150mgs a week my pain go so good I started walking for exercise. But in 4 weeks my levels we only 650 this is when I got him to try HCG. I started at 500 IU's 3 times a week and after my 15th. shot we tested and my levels doubled I was up over 1200 and had no joint or muscle pain. My weight from being house bound was up to 300 lbs. Last yr. I lost over 65 lbs. and was going to the guy at the senor center working out on 15 diff. machines I felt on top of the world. But is was short lived when winter came I got sick with Bronchitis I get this every winter for the last 23 yrs and felt it was due to low T. I am still trying to get back to were I was last yr. We now know I am not primary but Seconday do to Hypopituitary problems for a bad head injury some 23 yrs. ago. This is why I get so sick every winter and have low T. I also have been tested for yrs. with low normal Cortisol, Thyroid, IGF-1, DHEA-S, Pregnenolone and Glucose. I don't understand how the dam Dr.'s I have seen over the yrs. missed this my labs have been screaming this. Anyway Yes I feel doing shots and HCG help with my pain my Dr. feels it was the T not getting to them and they were breaking down. There are others here that had the same problem on gels doing them the T dose not get to the joints and muscles. I feel HCG is good for everyone on TRT because doing TRT shuts down your LH and FSH adding HCG stimulates the LH recptor cells in our body and brain. So even if your Testis can only make T to a level of say 250 at least they are working and the other cells in your body. I feel it's better to add low does's of HCG then to go though life shut down. Phil louislarocque@... wrote: Phil, Are you saying that your joint pain went away when you started to inject HCG? Just want to be clear. I too have joint pain. I have recently worked with my doctor to allow more frequent injections. The next item is the E2 control. I may be interested in the HCG if joints still continue to be tender. My next milestone is to get level above 650 for Total T on weekly shots of ..5 ml of 200 strength T-enanthate. Say six weeks of this and test for T and E2. I am 40, primary, been on 150 mg of T-enanthate for the last 5 months (two week injections). The first month I was on 200mg of T every two weeks. I felt not bad for this timeframe. Then the dose was reduce to 100 for a week then brought back up to 150 until now. I felt very bad at 100 and marginally better at 150. Now I am at 100mg per week. Louis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 Phil, You say`my lab rang`` is 262 to 1593 for testosterone. Is not the lab range the same for everyone? I am curious. The lab range that I see on my tests (different units) converts to much lower values than this. I think the top end is 700 in your numbers. This is confusing. I would have thought that this is some statistical number for the age of the test-ee. I will ask this of my doctor when I see him. Louis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 Herein lies the confusion when I am talking to my family doctor. I have given him the two articles from " all things male " site. The only thing about the articles from this site is that there are no numbers. Thus, it is who says that I am too low on T and too high on E2. He has no reference. Is there a document somewhere that has a bit more numeric reference to it? That would be very useful to all I would think. By the way, feeling better today after a tough weekend and the first weekly shot of 100mg/ml. This is to be my new regime. Louis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 It only reinforces how I feel about doing gels the T from gels in some men does not keep the joints and muscles healthy. Your adding the gel to the site of your pain tells me your not getting enough T to your joints and muscles. Your getting some relief putting the gel on the spot that is sore. If you did shots your pain would not be there if you have an old injury and your T levels are not up good enough to keep that injury healthy you going to have pain. This is what I found out. Phil Hervé <hfuyet@...> wrote: Maybe I am not dealing with the question asked! I am using androgel and I noticed with surprize taht when I use a bit of my daily gel on the joints of my hand and on my chronically sore left ankle (sequel of a car accident 50 years ago) the pain disapears for a few days! Hervé > > Phil, > > Are you saying that your joint pain went away when you started to inject > HCG? Just want to be clear. > > I too have joint pain. I have recently worked with my doctor to allow more > frequent injections. The next item is the E2 control. I may be interested in > the HCG if joints still continue to be tender. > > My next milestone is to get level above 650 for Total T on weekly shots of > .5 ml of 200 strength T-enanthate. Say six weeks of this and test for T and > E2. > > I am 40, primary, been on 150 mg of T-enanthate for the last 5 months (two > week injections). The first month I was on 200mg of T every two weeks. I felt > not bad for this timeframe. Then the dose was reduce to 100 for a week then > brought back up to 150 until now. I felt very bad at 100 and marginally better > at 150. Now I am at 100mg per week. > > Louis > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 No when you go from one lab to the other the ranges are different what they do is crunch the numbers for all the men they have tested. Quest is different then LabCorp and my lab BioTech. Quest goes up to 800 I think LabCorp goes to 1000 and my lab goes to 1593. Then some of the go by age. The best way to get around this is to get your Total and Free T levels up into the upper 1/3 of your labs range for a young man. And to keep your Estradiol down to 10 to 30 best at 20. Phil louislarocque@... wrote: Phil, You say`my lab rang`` is 262 to 1593 for testosterone. Is not the lab range the same for everyone? I am curious. The lab range that I see on my tests (different units) converts to much lower values than this. I think the top end is 700 in your numbers. This is confusing. I would have thought that this is some statistical number for the age of the test-ee. I will ask this of my doctor when I see him. Louis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 Get the book by Dr. Shippen called " The Testosterone Syndrome " and show him these links. http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/3/1174 http://www.smart-drugs.com/ias-estrogen.htm http://www.medibolics.com/ArimidexBoostsTestosterone.htm http://www.lef.org/protocols/male_reproductive/male_hormone_restoration_01.htm Lef had a report on Estradiol saying to keep it down between 10 to 30 but the site is gone. Phil louislarocque@... wrote: Herein lies the confusion when I am talking to my family doctor. I have given him the two articles from " all things male " site. The only thing about the articles from this site is that there are no numbers. Thus, it is who says that I am too low on T and too high on E2. He has no reference. Is there a document somewhere that has a bit more numeric reference to it? That would be very useful to all I would think. By the way, feeling better today after a tough weekend and the first weekly shot of 100mg/ml. This is to be my new regime. Louis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 Thanks Phil for the links. I had a discussion with my doc today and we are going to progress in the directions of frequent shots slowly and then take care of the E2. I am a lucky man to have such a good gamily doctor. I will have more info on progress in 7 weeks or so when I get bloodwork on the latest injection schedule. These links will no doubt help. Louis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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