Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 Hi Philip Sorry to hear you are not feeling any benefits from Nebido. As you know, we are both at the same hospital department although under different professors. I too am on Nebido but started later during 2005. As you explore the E2 conversion I wanted to follow this closely as well. My understanding was that if T is converted to E2 then the T level decreases. If your total T is ca 25nmol/L are you saying or implying you wish an even higher T level? Again I am assuming if your E2 is lowered then your T will rise. Kind regards, _________________________________________ Randle _________________________________________ High E2 (Philip UK) >I was on Nebido injections for 12 months. Contrary to the makers > claim, my E2 has risen from a pre treatment level of 102 to 157 > (<165 scale) I'm not sure what unit of measurement was used, but I' > confident that E2 is crippling my replacement 'T' My LH & FSH are > less than 0.5 (shut down) Free 'T' has never been tested. I now > posses a pair of 'nutmegs' Last 'T' level 25.2nmol/L (8 to 29) I > know, they still insist that 8 is ok!!!! With 25.2 I should be good > but I'm not. SHGB is way low. Prior to my shutdown and increase E2 > I felt absolutely brilliant (didn't last long). > > I have this week switched to Testogel (Androgel)5mg. I need to get > my E2 down, but my endocrinologist will not precribe Arimidex (best > not to meddle says he (Professor)!! I did have some initial success > with Indolplex DIM, but the second month did nothing. Again I have > to rely on how I feel and the libido, as my endo does not believe > that Estrogen as he says, is a problem in men and that my 'estrogen > is within range (ok its at the top of range, I know that but he > doesn't seem to think itb a problem). So guys, bearing in mind this > is rocket science over here, how can I get my E2 down. You have put > me off 6_OXO. > > A quick high to Phil who will already know me as (its a long > story). > > Philip > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 High Phil and it is good to hear your on Testogel I feel this will have less of a problem with high E2 and the Indolplex/DIM will work better on the gels your are not puting a high dose of T in to your blood stream like Nebido. You will get a steady lower dose of T on the gel. I kept my E2 down on 1/4 of a tablet on 10 grams of the gel. And you may find it will take a little time before you feel the Gels working need to be tested to be sure your levels go up high enough. But do try the Indolplex/DIM on the Testogel you will find you will not go up so high so fast on the E2. Phil phlpbiggs <philip.biggs@...> wrote: I was on Nebido injections for 12 months. Contrary to the makers claim, my E2 has risen from a pre treatment level of 102 to 157 (<165 scale) I'm not sure what unit of measurement was used, but I' confident that E2 is crippling my replacement 'T' My LH & FSH are less than 0.5 (shut down) Free 'T' has never been tested. I now posses a pair of 'nutmegs' Last 'T' level 25.2nmol/L (8 to 29) I know, they still insist that 8 is ok!!!! With 25.2 I should be good but I'm not. SHGB is way low. Prior to my shutdown and increase E2 I felt absolutely brilliant (didn't last long). I have this week switched to Testogel (Androgel)5mg. I need to get my E2 down, but my endocrinologist will not precribe Arimidex (best not to meddle says he (Professor)!! I did have some initial success with Indolplex DIM, but the second month did nothing. Again I have to rely on how I feel and the libido, as my endo does not believe that Estrogen as he says, is a problem in men and that my 'estrogen is within range (ok its at the top of range, I know that but he doesn't seem to think itb a problem). So guys, bearing in mind this is rocket science over here, how can I get my E2 down. You have put me off 6_OXO. A quick high to Phil who will already know me as (its a long story). Philip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 I have had very high Total T numbers and never felt very good here my Dr. can and does test Free T and my Free T was always low with a high Total T of 1000. Getting my E2 tested 3 yrs ago and getting it down drove my Free T up to the high end of the range for a young man and that is went I felt much better. I am not saying this is what Phil is saying but sounds like it. If one is not on TRT and gets his T levels with E2 tested and finds the E2 to be on the high side with low T and he is over 40 getting the E2 down first can being up the T levels 200 to 300 points. But on TRT with High E2 is undoes the good the T meds are doing like being between a rock and a hard place. We need all hormones in balance to feel better. Being on TRT shuts down LH and FSH so adding HCG activates the testis and cells all over the body to go back to work. Just one more thing working to keep the balance. Phil Randle <peter_randle@...> wrote: Hi Philip Sorry to hear you are not feeling any benefits from Nebido. As you know, we are both at the same hospital department although under different professors. I too am on Nebido but started later during 2005. As you explore the E2 conversion I wanted to follow this closely as well. My understanding was that if T is converted to E2 then the T level decreases. If your total T is ca 25nmol/L are you saying or implying you wish an even higher T level? Again I am assuming if your E2 is lowered then your T will rise. Kind regards, _________________________________________ Randle _________________________________________ High E2 (Philip UK) >I was on Nebido injections for 12 months. Contrary to the makers > claim, my E2 has risen from a pre treatment level of 102 to 157 > (<165 scale) I'm not sure what unit of measurement was used, but I' > confident that E2 is crippling my replacement 'T' My LH & FSH are > less than 0.5 (shut down) Free 'T' has never been tested. I now > posses a pair of 'nutmegs' Last 'T' level 25.2nmol/L (8 to 29) I > know, they still insist that 8 is ok!!!! With 25.2 I should be good > but I'm not. SHGB is way low. Prior to my shutdown and increase E2 > I felt absolutely brilliant (didn't last long). > > I have this week switched to Testogel (Androgel)5mg. I need to get > my E2 down, but my endocrinologist will not precribe Arimidex (best > not to meddle says he (Professor)!! I did have some initial success > with Indolplex DIM, but the second month did nothing. Again I have > to rely on how I feel and the libido, as my endo does not believe > that Estrogen as he says, is a problem in men and that my 'estrogen > is within range (ok its at the top of range, I know that but he > doesn't seem to think itb a problem). So guys, bearing in mind this > is rocket science over here, how can I get my E2 down. You have put > me off 6_OXO. > > A quick high to Phil who will already know me as (its a long > story). > > Philip > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Hi Philip, it does seem as if you and I have (maybe had) different problems, two sides of the same coin. After I started with androgel my T level did not move much until I went on 7.5 mg per day. Also, my E2 did not go up (until quite recently). I thought the reason could be my intake of Chrysin and I3C (Indole-3-Carbinol - a DIM precursor). My E2 was at the very low end of the scale despite claims that my T supplementation would result in E2 conversion. I subsequently stopped with Chrysin and I3C - and ergo - my E2 went up. Thus in my case Chrysin and I3C lowered my E2 (that's my theory anyway), and the same supplements could possibly lower them for your as well. I bought mine at http://www.lef.org .There has been quite an extensive discussion on this board about both Chrysin and I3C and it might benefit you to go through those posts. If you want too view my history it is in the files section. > > I was on Nebido injections for 12 months. Contrary to the makers > claim, my E2 has risen from a pre treatment level of 102 to 157 > (<165 scale) I'm not sure what unit of measurement was used, but I' > confident that E2 is crippling my replacement 'T' My LH & FSH are > less than 0.5 (shut down) Free 'T' has never been tested. I now > posses a pair of 'nutmegs' Last 'T' level 25.2nmol/L (8 to 29) I > know, they still insist that 8 is ok!!!! With 25.2 I should be good > but I'm not. SHGB is way low. Prior to my shutdown and increase E2 > I felt absolutely brilliant (didn't last long). > > I have this week switched to Testogel (Androgel)5mg. I need to get > my E2 down, but my endocrinologist will not precribe Arimidex (best > not to meddle says he (Professor)!! I did have some initial success > with Indolplex DIM, but the second month did nothing. Again I have > to rely on how I feel and the libido, as my endo does not believe > that Estrogen as he says, is a problem in men and that my 'estrogen > is within range (ok its at the top of range, I know that but he > doesn't seem to think itb a problem). So guys, bearing in mind this > is rocket science over here, how can I get my E2 down. You have put > me off 6_OXO. > > A quick high to Phil who will already know me as (its a long > story). > > Philip > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Hi Tomas I have been down that road and tried LEF's products for me it did nothing. I do find there is a lot of debate with LEF and the DR. that came out with the Indolplex/DIM. The way I hear it LEF and the Dr. were going to team up and it did not work out so now LEF has done an all out campaign to make the Dr. and his DIM look bad. http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2002/jan2002_report_i3c_01.html http://www.dimfaq.com/index.htm http://qualitycounts.com/fpdim.html The only thing that works for me is Indolplex/DIM and Arimidex I use both lately. You need to go with what works best for you. Phil Tomas D Bertmark <tomas.bertmark@...> wrote: Hi Philip, it does seem as if you and I have (maybe had) different problems, two sides of the same coin. After I started with androgel my T level did not move much until I went on 7.5 mg per day. Also, my E2 did not go up (until quite recently). I thought the reason could be my intake of Chrysin and I3C (Indole-3-Carbinol - a DIM precursor). My E2 was at the very low end of the scale despite claims that my T supplementation would result in E2 conversion. I subsequently stopped with Chrysin and I3C - and ergo - my E2 went up. Thus in my case Chrysin and I3C lowered my E2 (that's my theory anyway), and the same supplements could possibly lower them for your as well. I bought mine at http://www.lef.org .There has been quite an extensive discussion on this board about both Chrysin and I3C and it might benefit you to go through those posts. If you want too view my history it is in the files section. > > I was on Nebido injections for 12 months. Contrary to the makers > claim, my E2 has risen from a pre treatment level of 102 to 157 > (<165 scale) I'm not sure what unit of measurement was used, but I' > confident that E2 is crippling my replacement 'T' My LH & FSH are > less than 0.5 (shut down) Free 'T' has never been tested. I now > posses a pair of 'nutmegs' Last 'T' level 25.2nmol/L (8 to 29) I > know, they still insist that 8 is ok!!!! With 25.2 I should be good > but I'm not. SHGB is way low. Prior to my shutdown and increase E2 > I felt absolutely brilliant (didn't last long). > > I have this week switched to Testogel (Androgel)5mg. I need to get > my E2 down, but my endocrinologist will not precribe Arimidex (best > not to meddle says he (Professor)!! I did have some initial success > with Indolplex DIM, but the second month did nothing. Again I have > to rely on how I feel and the libido, as my endo does not believe > that Estrogen as he says, is a problem in men and that my 'estrogen > is within range (ok its at the top of range, I know that but he > doesn't seem to think itb a problem). So guys, bearing in mind this > is rocket science over here, how can I get my E2 down. You have put > me off 6_OXO. > > A quick high to Phil who will already know me as (its a long > story). > > Philip > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 , With a reading of 25nmol/L things should be very good. In the very early stages following my first injection of Nebido, I was still producing my own 'T' averaging around 9.5nmol/L. Now at this time my E2 was 102(<165) not too high but not low. Let's assume that in the first week or two I had a rocket ship load of nebido PLUS my own 9.5 AND reasonable E2, and I felt really fantastic. Then it all went down hill. Why? well my theory is this. First of all my LH & FSH both measured at less than 0.5(shut down) so I'm no longer producing my 9.5. In addition to this my E2 went from 102 to a high of 157 (<165) so it can be seen that my E2 is now at the top end. So now all I have to rely on is my 'replacement therapy' from Nebido. Add into this equation the fact that some of this 'T' is being converted to E2 by aromatase enzyme action. My understanding is that both E2 and SHBG if they are high enough will sit in the 'T' receptors in your cells and prevent uptake of 'T'. This is why I think it is so important to know what the free 'T' is, that which is not bound to SHBG or E2. Yes I have a good serum reading, but because of the high E2 my cells are unable to make use of it. Until I can lower my E2, it is preventing me from getting the benefit of 'T'. I asked my consultant for Arimidex, the answer was 'NO, best not to meddle' In NHS speak Arimidex is bloody expensive!! Have you found that your E2 has risen on Nebido, if so you don;t want too much, the lower third of scale is best. I've just had a dose of Atrial Fibrillation (upper heart chambers out of sync) requiring 300jules to correct it (I have the burn marks to prove). I would be intersted to know if your consultant thinks differently about E2 (I doubt it my consultant is lead clinician of the team)!! My post here was to try and further educate myself in the balance of E2. It would be interesting to know if any other user has experienced Atrial Fibrillation (Tony Blair syndrome). If I can be of help give me a shout. Oh yes another aspect of shut down...'NUTMEGS' Philip (UK) > > Hi Philip > > Sorry to hear you are not feeling any benefits from Nebido. As you know, we > are both at the same hospital department although under different > professors. I too am on Nebido but started later during 2005. > > As you explore the E2 conversion I wanted to follow this closely as well. My > understanding was that if T is converted to E2 then the T level decreases. > If your total T is ca 25nmol/L are you saying or implying you wish an even > higher T level? Again I am assuming if your E2 is lowered then your T will > rise. > > Kind regards, > > > > _________________________________________ > Randle > _________________________________________ > High E2 (Philip UK) > > > >I was on Nebido injections for 12 months. Contrary to the makers > > claim, my E2 has risen from a pre treatment level of 102 to 157 > > (<165 scale) I'm not sure what unit of measurement was used, but I' > > confident that E2 is crippling my replacement 'T' My LH & FSH are > > less than 0.5 (shut down) Free 'T' has never been tested. I now > > posses a pair of 'nutmegs' Last 'T' level 25.2nmol/L (8 to 29) I > > know, they still insist that 8 is ok!!!! With 25.2 I should be good > > but I'm not. SHGB is way low. Prior to my shutdown and increase E2 > > I felt absolutely brilliant (didn't last long). > > > > I have this week switched to Testogel (Androgel)5mg. I need to get > > my E2 down, but my endocrinologist will not precribe Arimidex (best > > not to meddle says he (Professor)!! I did have some initial success > > with Indolplex DIM, but the second month did nothing. Again I have > > to rely on how I feel and the libido, as my endo does not believe > > that Estrogen as he says, is a problem in men and that my 'estrogen > > is within range (ok its at the top of range, I know that but he > > doesn't seem to think itb a problem). So guys, bearing in mind this > > is rocket science over here, how can I get my E2 down. You have put > > me off 6_OXO. > > > > A quick high to Phil who will already know me as (its a long > > story). > > > > Philip > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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