Re: LH and FSH Stimluation

December 17, 2006

Sofry you need to understand HCG will not make your LH and FSH levels go up. If

anything they will come down using HCG because your brain see more T levels in

the blood if your Testis are making more T do to the HCG. Also if your on T

meds shots or gels your LH and FSH will come way down for the some reasion. How

do you know from these tests that they did not work all you showed us were the

wrong tests. I am sorry you did not understand this but if you did more test

and did not post them do so. If not go back on the HCG after about 15 shots do

a blood test not doing any T meds or HCG the morning of the test do Total and

Free Testosterone and Estradiol. If you have health coverage then go back to

Dr. 's site and do all the tests in his TRT: A Recipe for Success.

Using Clomid tries to get your pituitary to put out more LH but is not a good

way to do long term TRT has some bad sides.

Phil

Softy <modestman3@...> wrote:

I read that Doctor includes HCG in TRT to keep the natural

production going. I like that concept as native is always better than

synethic. So, I tried HCG on my own without success. I switched to

Clomid and achieved limited results.

Here are my numbers:

Med FSH LH

Normal Range 0.7-11.1 0.8-7.6

HCG 0.2 <0.1

Clomid 0.5 0.3

I am still below the normal range but achieved a slight improvement

with Clomid.

I am left wondering if it is worth it for the little boost as the

Clomid is $0.75 per pill X 3 per week = 2.10 per week. Conversely, my

glands are producing a little bit and are not totally shutdown.

__________________________________________________

December 23, 2006

Hi, I understand that TRT suppresses FSH and LH. That is why I was

supplementing with Human Conronic Gonadatropin (HCG, sorry about the

spelling). Dr. recommends supplementing with HCG to reverse the

effect of TRT on LH and FSH secretions. The HCG did not work for me.

Prior to TRT I had normal levels of LH and FSH. This was one of the

tests my doctor had done in order to determine the cause of my low

test initially back in 2002. My initial test level was 218 and that

got the whole TRT thing rolling.

I tried Clomid and my LH as well as FSH improved but not very much.

My LH went from under .1 to .3. My FSH secretion went from .2 to .5.

Also, I was a little surprised at my Ttl Test level. It was 800 on

..5ml of 200mg Test Cypionate per week. My Free T was good too.

I am still wondering if it is worth it to take the Clomid and push my

system into producing natural hormones.

Finally, I am not sure what results I have not supplied. What are you

looking for specifically?

> I read that Doctor includes HCG in TRT to keep the

natural

> production going. I like that concept as native is always better than

> synethic. So, I tried HCG on my own without success. I switched to

> Clomid and achieved limited results.

>

> Here are my numbers:

>

> Med FSH LH

> Normal Range 0.7-11.1 0.8-7.6

> HCG 0.2 <0.1

> Clomid 0.5 0.3

>

> I am still below the normal range but achieved a slight improvement

> with Clomid.

>

> I am left wondering if it is worth it for the little boost as the

> Clomid is $0.75 per pill X 3 per week = 2.10 per week. Conversely, my

> glands are producing a little bit and are not totally shutdown.

>

> __________________________________________________

>

December 23, 2006

Softy I feel from what you saying high LH and FSH on first test and low T this

is why HCG did not bring up your T levels your Primary this means your testis

can't make enough T.

Phil

Softy <modestman3@...> wrote:

Hi, I understand that TRT suppresses FSH and LH. That is why I was

supplementing with Human Conronic Gonadatropin (HCG, sorry about the

spelling). Dr. recommends supplementing with HCG to reverse the

effect of TRT on LH and FSH secretions. The HCG did not work for me.

Prior to TRT I had normal levels of LH and FSH. This was one of the

tests my doctor had done in order to determine the cause of my low

test initially back in 2002. My initial test level was 218 and that

got the whole TRT thing rolling.

I tried Clomid and my LH as well as FSH improved but not very much.

My LH went from under .1 to .3. My FSH secretion went from .2 to .5.

Also, I was a little surprised at my Ttl Test level. It was 800 on

..5ml of 200mg Test Cypionate per week. My Free T was good too.

I am still wondering if it is worth it to take the Clomid and push my

system into producing natural hormones.

Finally, I am not sure what results I have not supplied. What are you

looking for specifically?

> I read that Doctor includes HCG in TRT to keep the

natural

> production going. I like that concept as native is always better than

> synethic. So, I tried HCG on my own without success. I switched to

> Clomid and achieved limited results.

>

> Here are my numbers:

>

> Med FSH LH

> Normal Range 0.7-11.1 0.8-7.6

> HCG 0.2 <0.1

> Clomid 0.5 0.3

>

> I am still below the normal range but achieved a slight improvement

> with Clomid.

>

> I am left wondering if it is worth it for the little boost as the

> Clomid is $0.75 per pill X 3 per week = 2.10 per week. Conversely, my

> glands are producing a little bit and are not totally shutdown.

>

> __________________________________________________

>

December 23, 2006

> > I read that Doctor includes HCG in TRT to keep the

> natural

> > production going. I like that concept as native is always better than

> > synethic. So, I tried HCG on my own without success. I switched to

> > Clomid and achieved limited results.

> >

> > Here are my numbers:

> >

> > Med FSH LH

> > Normal Range 0.7-11.1 0.8-7.6

> > HCG 0.2 <0.1

> > Clomid 0.5 0.3

> >

> > I am still below the normal range but achieved a slight improvement

> > with Clomid.

> >

> > I am left wondering if it is worth it for the little boost as the

> > Clomid is $0.75 per pill X 3 per week = 2.10 per week. Conversely, my

> > glands are producing a little bit and are not totally shutdown.

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

December 23, 2006

I agree that on my best day my natural production is very inadequate.

Still I believe that natural is always better than synethic. I think I

read somewhere that it takes 150% of synethic to come close natural.

Anything I can get naturally is a big bonus.

>

> Softy I feel from what you saying high LH and FSH on first test and

low T this is why HCG did not bring up your T levels your Primary this

means your testis can't make enough T.

> Phil

December 24, 2006

I don't agree with you if you have low T and need to supplement it do so don't

get into the mind set natural is better it does not work if you have low levels.

Testosterone that you get from your Dr. in a sense is not synethic it is

bioidentical here read this cut & paste.

You can do a lot of damage to your body and brain if your low and need TRT and

don't get it.

Phil

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------------------------

What are " bioidentical hormones? "

A " bioidentical hormone " refers to a substance that has the exact same chemical

structure as a hormone that is naturally produced in the body. For example, the

testosterone that is naturally produced in the human body has the chemical

formula C19H28O2 and the following chemical structure:

testosterone molecule

In order for prescription testosterone to be considered " bioidentical, " its

chemical structure should match the above structure identically. (Bear in mind

that even though the illustration shown above looks flat, molecules in real life

are three dimensional. Even minor changes in a chemical structure can change the

overall shape of a molecule, and thus can affect its ability to bond with other

molecules and perform certain tasks in the body.)

What are " natural " versus " synthetic " hormones?

When reading the latest buzzwords about hormone therapy, the use of the terms

" natural " and " synthetic " can be very confusing. This is because the word

" bioidentical " is often equated to " natural, " while being contrasted with

" synthetic " and " man-made. " These generalizations can be a bit misleading; we'll

examine them more closely in order to better understand the differences between

different testosterone treatments.

First, the term " natural " is often used to mean something that is found in

nature, or something that is not man-made. In the case of testosterone, the

" natural " form of the hormone is produced in the glands of the body; its

chemical structure is shown above in Figure 1.

Next, let's recall that " bioidentical " testosterone is defined as having the

exact same chemical structure as the " natural " testosterone that is created by

the body. In this sense, " bioidentical " testosterone matches " natural "

testosterone on the molecular level.

If there is any chemical modification to the testosterone molecule (such as

adding a side chain or functional group), it no longer fits under the definition

of " bioidentical. " This is what is often referred to as a " synthetic " hormone--

a substance that has been modified in chemical structure from the hormone as it

would occur naturally. An example of a " synthetic " hormone would be

methyltestosterone , which is the testosterone hormone with an added methyl

group (CH3) at the c-17 alpha position of the molecule

Softy <modestman3@...> wrote:

I agree that on my best day my natural production is very inadequate.

Still I believe that natural is always better than synethic. I think I

read somewhere that it takes 150% of synethic to come close natural.

Anything I can get naturally is a big bonus.

>

> Softy I feel from what you saying high LH and FSH on first test and

low T this is why HCG did not bring up your T levels your Primary this

means your testis can't make enough T.

> Phil

__________________________________________________

December 26, 2006

So you (Phil) are in the " it isn't worth it " camp. The expenses and

risk to my health are great.

I ask back - what are the risks of taking Clomid? The sides listed in

the literature are pretty benign.

December 26, 2006

Softy,

I am taking Clomid now and have taken it before (I stopped to try

other means of T which didn't work due to E2 conversion and my doc.

doesn't do Arimidex, etc.). 50mgs. 3x week. I have yet to notice any

side effects - all my doctor cautioned was eye problems, but said you

would only notice in first few weeks and if not, it would not be an

issue - I have had no problems. Much of the research you will read on

men is limited, because it is a generic and of no interest to Big

Pharma. A lot of anecdotal, but think about it, how much research do

they have about some of the new ADepressants - 8 or 12 weeks of

clincal trials????

Blessings,

Bill

>

> So you (Phil) are in the " it isn't worth it " camp. The expenses and

> risk to my health are great.

>

> I ask back - what are the risks of taking Clomid? The sides listed in

> the literature are pretty benign.

>

December 26, 2006

The guys are not here that had problems with Clomid one at Meso has permanent

floaters in his Eye. Here is a link to the site do a search on it and read

about it. Dr. at www.allthingsmale.com feels this is not good for long

term TRT.

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/search.php?searchid=212583

Phil

Softy <modestman3@...> wrote:

So you (Phil) are in the " it isn't worth it " camp. The expenses and

risk to my health are great.

I ask back - what are the risks of taking Clomid? The sides listed in

the literature are pretty benign.

__________________________________________________

December 27, 2006

> >

> > So you (Phil) are in the " it isn't worth it " camp. The expenses and

> > risk to my health are great.

> >

> > I ask back - what are the risks of taking Clomid? The sides listed in

> > the literature are pretty benign.

> >

>

What are the eye floaters?

December 27, 2006

I would imagine them to be manifestations in your eyesight that

effect your ability to see clearly. They probably look

like " floating " saucers in your vision, that move around. Like

blotches, I imagine.

I have never had this experience on Clomid and it is far from a

conclusive warning, given the lack of research. The FDA has

approved the use of Clomid for men, so it could not be that large of

a risk, right??

Blessings,

Bill

> > >

> > > So you (Phil) are in the " it isn't worth it " camp. The

expenses and

> > > risk to my health are great.

> > >

> > > I ask back - what are the risks of taking Clomid? The sides

listed in

> > > the literature are pretty benign.

> > >

> >

> What are the eye floaters?

>

December 27, 2006

You see something floating in your eye that your not see its in your eye.

Phil

vaiisking1026 <vaiisking@...> wrote:

> >

> > So you (Phil) are in the " it isn't worth it " camp. The expenses and

> > risk to my health are great.

> >

> > I ask back - what are the risks of taking Clomid? The sides listed in

> > the literature are pretty benign.

> >

>

What are the eye floaters?

__________________________________________________

December 28, 2006

Thanks guys. I have not had any problems with spots in my vision.

> > >

> > > So you (Phil) are in the " it isn't worth it " camp. The expenses and

> > > risk to my health are great.

> > >

> > > I ask back - what are the risks of taking Clomid? The sides

listed in

> > > the literature are pretty benign.

> > >

> >

> What are the eye floaters?

>

> __________________________________________________

>

December 28, 2006

I went to Dr 's site - Allthings Male.com. I have been tested for

the things on his initial list. That was roughly 2 yrs ago. Ruled out

tumor and determined I am secondary as LH and FSH levels were normal

Separately, my IGF-1 was just a couple of points above the minimum.

The one glaring omission is cortisol testing - haven't had one.

Per Dr. , HCG is an analog of LH. I would ve expected sky high

reading of LH following HCG administratio. I see that the good doc

does not test LH on a followup basis but does test FSH. And I got much

better FSH results from Clomid. Also, I have not experienced any spots

in my vision.

Moreover, my ttl test was sky high at 800 considering I inject 0.5ml

of 200mg/ml Test Cyp per week. The only thing I can attribute to the

high test reading is Clomid.

I can try HCG once again. I think it may have bumped up my natural

Test about 100 points.

>

> Sofry,... If you have health coverage then go back to Dr. 's

site and do all the tests in his TRT: A Recipe for Success.

>

> Using Clomid tries to get your pituitary to put out more LH but is

not a good way to do long term TRT has some bad sides.

> Phil

December 28, 2006

HCG is not going to make your LH go way up if anything lower yet it is analog

what this means is it stimulates everything LH dose. You can try HCG do 100

IU's everyday to start test in 6 weeks and see what your levels are if you can

get your T levels up using HCG to stimulate your testis to make Testosterone

your better off for it. What is hard is finding the dose that keeps your testis

putting out the max anymore HCG then this turns into Estradiol and we don't need

this. One of the guys doing HCG only gets by on 60 IU's a day.

As for feelling hot if you have a high or even low thyroid this can make you

feel hot. If your low you sould feel cold all the time but for some the body

makes more Adrenaline because of low thyroid and this makes you feel hot with a

lower body temp.

Best way to tell is to take your body temp before getting out of bed put the

gauge under your arm for 10 min's. before getting out of bed do this for 4 days

and the do an avg. if your avg. is less then 97.8 your thyroid is low.

Not everyone getts sides from Clomid but we do have guys that did it and have

floaters in there eyes that don't go away. Some feel very moody on it and cry

with the women at a sad movie.