RE: Aromasin & Arimidex Total E and E2

[Guest guest]

I don't know but in my search

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en & q=Aromasin%2BMen & sa=N & tab=wg read the

first link on Andorgel in it they say Dr. Shippen uses Aromasin.

Phil

swrtw2001 <no_reply > wrote:

Hi Guys,

I need some advice, I have high E2 and Total E levels. From my

understanding Arimidex does a great job at lowering E2 but doesn't

lower Total E as much. I've been reading the body building sites, and

many have reported low total E levels while using Aromasin, but most

I've asked didn't respond with their initial Total E levels prior to

the use of Aromasin.

I am wondering for those on this group who have used Aromasin and have

had their total E levels and E2 levels tested before and after

Aromasin, can you tell me what your results were?

Thanks Guys, your help is very much appreciated.

S

[Guest guest]

Thanks as always Phil,

I wonder why Shippen now prefers Aromasin over Arimidex?

Also, I would be very interested to see Aromasin affects total E's, I

know in your situation arimidex only affected E2 and didn't change

your total E results, I wonder if that's true for everyone who's used

arimidex.

Thanks!

> Hi Guys,

>

> I need some advice, I have high E2 and Total E levels. From my

> understanding Arimidex does a great job at lowering E2 but doesn't

> lower Total E as much. I've been reading the body building sites,

and

> many have reported low total E levels while using Aromasin, but most

> I've asked didn't respond with their initial Total E levels prior to

> the use of Aromasin.

>

> I am wondering for those on this group who have used Aromasin and

have

> had their total E levels and E2 levels tested before and after

> Aromasin, can you tell me what your results were?

>

> Thanks Guys, your help is very much appreciated.

> S

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I wonder why Shippen now prefers Aromasin over Arimidex?---

I'd be really careful with this. Aromasin (trade name Exemestane) is

one of the " suicide " aromatase inhibitors that is perported to

eliminate aromatase receptors rather than merely blocking them.

[Guest guest]

I feel I miss lead you it is Indolplex/DIM that made my Total E's high if I

told your Arimidex did this I was in error. To keep my Total E down I take TMG

with my Indolplex/DIM. When I would get my tests back on just Arimidex my E2

would say <20 my Dr. would feel I could be to low because my Total E would be

low normal 60 range 29 to 127 pg/mL. I put a post on MESO for Dr. on

Aromasin and here is what he said a cut & paste.

I do not favor the suicide inhibitor \r\n

\r\nAG-Guys.com " , " style=\ " background: #FFFFCC;padding: 2px;font-size:

10px;\ " " );' onmouseout=GAL_hidepopup();

href= " http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/autolink.php?id=5 & script=showthread & forumid\

=9 " target=_blank>Aromasin over \r\n

\r\nAG-Guys.com " , " style=\ " background: #FFFFCC;padding: 2px;font-size:

10px;\ " " );' onmouseout=GAL_hidepopup();

href= " http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/autolink.php?id=2 & script=showthread & forumid\

=9 " target=_blank>Arimidex at this time.

Has anyone heard why Dr. Shippen feels this way?

The notion that one is " more powerful " has no real meaning here, where there is

a clear dose-dependen response. In either case, you titrate dose to effect.

__________________

www.allthingsmale.com

ANY ADVICE I MAY GIVE DOES NOT SUBSTITUTE FOR A PROPER MEDICAL EVALUATION FROM A

QUALIFIED MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL, NOR DOES IT CONSTITUTE DOCTOR/PATIENT

RELATIONSHIP, OR LIABILITY, IN ANY WAY.

Today doing T shots 64mgs every 3 days and 100 IU's of HCG everyday my E2 is

better then doing the shot once a week on T. Yet I still need to do both

Indolplex/DIM and Arimidex. My Dr. is going to try a new E2 med a shot you do

once a month. They are testing on men now.

http://www.astrazeneca-us.com/modules/PRMS/display.asp?id=284

Dr. wants to know all I can get on this.

Phil

swrtw2001 <no_reply > wrote:

Thanks as always Phil,

I wonder why Shippen now prefers Aromasin over Arimidex?

Also, I would be very interested to see Aromasin affects total E's, I

know in your situation arimidex only affected E2 and didn't change

your total E results, I wonder if that's true for everyone who's used

arimidex.

Thanks!

> Hi Guys,

>

> I need some advice, I have high E2 and Total E levels. From my

> understanding Arimidex does a great job at lowering E2 but doesn't

> lower Total E as much. I've been reading the body building sites,

and

> many have reported low total E levels while using Aromasin, but most

> I've asked didn't respond with their initial Total E levels prior to

> the use of Aromasin.

>

> I am wondering for those on this group who have used Aromasin and

have

> had their total E levels and E2 levels tested before and after

> Aromasin, can you tell me what your results were?

>

> Thanks Guys, your help is very much appreciated.

> S

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

True this is the same thing Dr. just told me. My Dr. is looking to try

this on me next month.

http://www.astrazeneca-us.com/modules/PRMS/display.asp?id=284

One shot a month.

Phil

Summers <rsummers@...> wrote:

I wonder why Shippen now prefers Aromasin over Arimidex?---

I'd be really careful with this. Aromasin (trade name Exemestane) is

one of the " suicide " aromatase inhibitors that is perported to

eliminate aromatase receptors rather than merely blocking them.

[Guest guest]

My Dr. is looking to try this on me next month.

http://www.astrazeneca-us.com/modules/PRMS/display.asp?id=284

One shot a month.----

FASLODEX (Fulvestrant) is another suicide inhibitor, or did you

already know this?

[Guest guest]

It may be because Aromasin does not alter your lipid profile (make

your LDL cholesterol go up) the way Arimidex and Femara can. Other

differences:

Aromasin is a steroid, and an irreversible aromatase inhibitor which

binds permanently to aromatase making it ineffective. The effects of

the drug wear off only by the body producing new aromatase.

Arimidex and Femara are non-steroidal, reversible aromatase

inhibitors.

I guess Aromasin is " stronger " but, you know, that depends on how

much you take.

It may be the cholesterol thing.

>

> Thanks as always Phil,

>

> I wonder why Shippen now prefers Aromasin over Arimidex?

>

[Guest guest]

No I did not but did ask my Dr. what if I did try this and it took my E's to low

he said not going to happen they are testing the dose in men in Cleveland where

in Cleveland I don't know. I do know this to stay at the levels I am at and

feel as good as I do I need to do both Arimidex 1mg a day and Indolplex/DIM. I

am now trying shots every 3 days of T and my HCG everyday. My lab only goes

down to 20 I don't feel like I am to low sex is good and no brain fog. I guess

I will need to do my next test with a lab that goes down to zero for E2. I

would bet I do well down at 10. I know you don't trust labs but my Dr. needs to

know I am not going to low.

Phil

Summers <rsummers@...> wrote:

My Dr. is looking to try this on me next month.

http://www.astrazeneca-us.com/modules/PRMS/display.asp?id=284

One shot a month.----

FASLODEX (Fulvestrant) is another suicide inhibitor, or did you

already know this?

[Guest guest]

I did read that and my cholestero is dam good. We will have to see how it all

works out. I am still over weight and feel this is why the big problem keeping

T levels up this high making my body up my E2.

Phil

wayback44 <no_reply > wrote:

It may be because Aromasin does not alter your lipid profile (make

your LDL cholesterol go up) the way Arimidex and Femara can. Other

differences:

Aromasin is a steroid, and an irreversible aromatase inhibitor which

binds permanently to aromatase making it ineffective. The effects of

the drug wear off only by the body producing new aromatase.

Arimidex and Femara are non-steroidal, reversible aromatase

inhibitors.

I guess Aromasin is " stronger " but, you know, that depends on how

much you take.

It may be the cholesterol thing.

>

> Thanks as always Phil,

>

> I wonder why Shippen now prefers Aromasin over Arimidex?

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks . I did not know FASLODEX is a suicide inhibitor. IMO,

it's best to stay away from anything that makes irreversible changes.

My Dr. is looking to try this on me next month.

> http://www.astrazeneca-us.com/modules/PRMS/display.asp?id=284

> One shot a month.----

>

> FASLODEX (Fulvestrant) is another suicide inhibitor, or did you

> already know this?

>

[Guest guest]

What is the " aromatase receptor " ?

There is the aromatase *enzyme*, which is one of the P450 liver

enzymes, and there is the *estrogen* receptor (ER) which is a ligand-

activated transcription factor, but I've never heard of

an " aromatase receptor " . Strictly speaking an " aromatase receptor "

if such a thing exists, would be a receptor that binds the enzyme

aromatase. AFAIK there is no such thing.

Also, a suicide inhibitor only inhibits the particular molecule to

which it binds. You should not have a permanent loss of aromatase

or ER since these molecules are continuously being encoded and

synthesized from their respective genes. But if the gene for

aromatase (or indirectly, by some other mechanism, the ER) is

downregulated at the gene expression level by the inhibitor, then I

suppose in theory you could have permanent loss of either aromatase

or ER, but off the top of my head I've not heard of such studies

being performed.

Vornan

In , " Summers " <rsummers@e...>

wrote:

>

>

> I wonder why Shippen now prefers Aromasin over Arimidex?---

>

> I'd be really careful with this. Aromasin (trade name Exemestane)

is

> one of the " suicide " aromatase inhibitors that is perported to

> eliminate aromatase receptors rather than merely blocking them.

>

[Guest guest]

What is the " aromatase receptor " ?----

I'm not a biologist but here is a medical dictionary's definition

of 'receptor':

" In biochemistry, a receptor is a protein on the cell membrane or

within the cytoplasm or cell nucleus that binds to a specific

molecule (a ligand), such as a neurotransmitter, hormone, or other

substance, and initiates the cellular response to the ligand. Ligand-

induced changes in the behavior of receptor proteins result in

physiological changes that constitute the biological actions of the

ligands. "

Aromatase is an enzyme. Enzymes are proteins. Connect the dots.

----I've never heard of an " aromatase receptor " . AFAIK there is no

such thing.----

You can take up the issue with these researchers:

" The recent discovery of a mutation in the AROMATASE RECEPTOR in an

osteoporotic man has led to advances in understanding the role of

oestrogen in skeletal growth.36,37 "

http://www.osteoporosis.org.au/files/diamond1.pdf

" The research team hypothesizes that Femara's success hinges on its

ability to reintegrate itself into a cancer-fighting organism. After

five years of Tamoxifen, cancer cells can become resistant to the

treatment and can often effectively ward off treatments without

cancer cell elimination. But changing the treatment method to Femara

drastically alters the AROMATASE RECEPTORS, allowing for suppression

of tumor cells that are responsible for breast cancer recurrence. "

http://www.mydna.com/health/breast_cancer/news/resources/news/200509/n

ews_20050909_fem.html

[Guest guest]

Thanks . I did not know FASLODEX is a suicide inhibitor.

IMO, it's best to stay away from anything that makes irreversible

changes.----

I do not understand a lot about receptors. Possibly receptors

regenerate or new receptors form. I am not certain of how permanent

these " suicide inhibitors " actually are, but unless one knows for

certain, I'm saying it's probably good to use caution.

This is describes the action of one such drug:

" Fulvestrant (Faslodex) is a newly approved drug that also acts via

the estrogen receptor, but instead of blocking it, this drug

eliminates it. "

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/content/CRI_2_4_4X_Hormone_Therapy_5.

asp?sitearea=

[Guest guest]

Phil,

If your current regime is working great for you, why change it? I

don't think you should mess with a good thing, just my opinion.

My Dr. is looking to try this on me next month.

> http://www.astrazeneca-us.com/modules/PRMS/display.asp?id=284

> One shot a month.----

>

> FASLODEX (Fulvestrant) is another suicide inhibitor, or did you

> already know this?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Just thinking outloud here.

Wouldn't a suicide inhibitor be a good thing, if it could permanently

disable the aromatese enzyme if we already have high Estrogen

production. If this was the case, and estrogen modulation was done

carefully, wouldn't we be able to lower E2 and Total estrogens' to the

point where we would no longer require any aromatese inhibitors in the

future.

Thanks!

[Guest guest]

Very interesting Vornan,

So the enzymes are constantly being produced by our livers. How does

the liver malfunction to create extra aromatization? In my case it

was caused by finasteride. My liver enzymes tested values are all

pretty good, but what would be the best way to tackle a high estrogen

problem? Liver meds to improve the P450 system or aromatese meds.

Thanks!

> > I wonder why Shippen now prefers Aromasin over Arimidex?---

> >

> > I'd be really careful with this. Aromasin (trade name

Exemestane)

> is

> > one of the " suicide " aromatase inhibitors that is perported to

> > eliminate aromatase receptors rather than merely blocking them.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Wouldn't a suicide inhibitor be a good thing, if it could permanently

disable the aromatese enzyme if we already have high Estrogen

production.------

Aromatization of testosterone into estrogen is the only means of

estrogen production that men (and post-menopausal women) have. If you

disabled this process completely and permanently you would soon have

NO estrogen.

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 06:04:41 -0000, you wrote:

>Just thinking outloud here.

>

>Wouldn't a suicide inhibitor be a good thing, if it could permanently

>disable the aromatese enzyme if we already have high Estrogen

>production. If this was the case, and estrogen modulation was done

>carefully, wouldn't we be able to lower E2 and Total estrogens' to the

>point where we would no longer require any aromatese inhibitors in the

>future.

>

>Thanks!

Except that some of the receptor sites take both estrogen or T. That's

the issue with E2 it out competes testosterone for some sites.

Filling those with a receptor filler wouldn't help I suspect.

- - - -

Just another albino black sheep

[Guest guest]

What is the " aromatase receptor " ?----

>

> I'm not a biologist

Obviously not.

but here is a medical dictionary's definition

> of 'receptor':

>

> " In biochemistry, a receptor is a protein on the cell membrane or

> within the cytoplasm or cell nucleus that binds to a specific

> molecule (a ligand), such as a neurotransmitter, hormone, or other

> substance, and initiates the cellular response to the ligand.

Ligand-

> induced changes in the behavior of receptor proteins result in

> physiological changes that constitute the biological actions of

the

> ligands. "

>

> Aromatase is an enzyme. Enzymes are proteins. Connect the dots.

Yes, I just told you that aromatase is an enzyme. And I know that

enzymes are proteins. But what do you mean by " connect the dots " ?

Are you trying to construct some kind of syllogistic fallacy (even

accidentally) to prove that aromatase is a receptor, LOL? It won't

work with me. And I didn't ask for a dictionary definition of a

receptor. I asked you what the " aromatase receptor " is. FYI I have

a Ph.D. in cell and molecular biology and I'm an assistant professor

at a medical university. I have 15 years experience in life science

research and am well published. Connect the dots. I don't need

dictionary definitions, but you obviously do.

> You can take up the issue with these researchers:

I might do that. Because like you they are deeply misinformed.

Maybe you should send them a link to your online medical

dictionary. As I explained in my previous message, there is the

aromatase enzyme, and there is the estrogen receptor, but there is

no such thing as the " aromatase receptor " . Interesting that

this " research " cannot be found in PubMed. LOL.

Here are links to the Online Mendelian Inheritance in Man (OMIM)

database entries for " Aromatase " and the " Estrogen Receptor " . As

you can see they are quite different proteins encoded by different

genes. This database is maintained by the National Center for

Biotechnology Information at the National Institute of Health. It

is probbably the largest such protein and gene database in the

world. You will not find an entry for " aromatase receptor " because

there is no such thing. Connect the dots.

Aromatase

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/dispomim.cgi?id=107910

Estrogen Receptor

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/dispomim.cgi?id=133430

Vornan

>

> " The recent discovery of a mutation in the AROMATASE RECEPTOR in

an

> osteoporotic man has led to advances in understanding the role of

> oestrogen in skeletal growth.36,37 "

> http://www.osteoporosis.org.au/files/diamond1.pdf

>

> " The research team hypothesizes that Femara's success hinges on

its

> ability to reintegrate itself into a cancer-fighting organism.

After

> five years of Tamoxifen, cancer cells can become resistant to the

> treatment and can often effectively ward off treatments without

> cancer cell elimination. But changing the treatment method to

Femara

> drastically alters the AROMATASE RECEPTORS, allowing for

suppression

> of tumor cells that are responsible for breast cancer recurrence. "

>

http://www.mydna.com/health/breast_cancer/news/resources/news/200509/

n

> ews_20050909_fem.html

>

[Guest guest]

With my E2 I am on a roller coaster ride up take something down hell I am up at

night and down in the morning. Dr. feels this will work slower but steady.

Phil

swrtw2001 <no_reply > wrote:

Phil,

If your current regime is working great for you, why change it? I

don't think you should mess with a good thing, just my opinion.

My Dr. is looking to try this on me next month.

> http://www.astrazeneca-us.com/modules/PRMS/display.asp?id=284

> One shot a month.----

>

> FASLODEX (Fulvestrant) is another suicide inhibitor, or did you

> already know this?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Not quite it will kill the aromatese enxyme so to speck but the body is

always makeing them. So how it would work better is there would not be all of

this work by the liver getting rid of all of them E's. I am blocking E2's with

Arimidex and converting E2 to E's with Indolplex/DIM also makeing the bad 4-OHE

using DIM so need to take TMG to wash this out. So using this new drug that is

a shot once a month I can drop all the other stuff. A link.

http://www.astrazeneca-us.com/modules/PRMS/display.asp?id=284

I am going to try it I feel what will happen is the shot will need to be

increased month to month until we find the right dose.

Phil

swrtw2001 <no_reply > wrote:

Just thinking outloud here.

Wouldn't a suicide inhibitor be a good thing, if it could permanently

disable the aromatese enzyme if we already have high Estrogen

production. If this was the case, and estrogen modulation was done

carefully, wouldn't we be able to lower E2 and Total estrogens' to the

point where we would no longer require any aromatese inhibitors in the

future.

Thanks!

[Guest guest]

This makes me wonder about 6-OXO, which claims to be a suicide inhibitor,

but I thought it supposedly works by binding with the estrogen and making it

flush out the system, nothing to do with the receptors.

Apples and oranges?

> Re: Aromasin & Arimidex Total E and E2

>

> My Dr. is looking to try this on me next month.

>http://www.astrazeneca-us.com/modules/PRMS/display.asp?id=284

>One shot a month.----

>

>FASLODEX (Fulvestrant) is another suicide inhibitor, or did

>you already know this?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

My experience with 6-OXO it didn't work for me. I have a study which

shows it blocks the conversion from E1 to E2, it only marginally

reduces E2 levels while substantially increasing E1 and total E

levels. It made things worse for me after a week of use.

My Dr. is looking to try this on me next month.

> >http://www.astrazeneca-us.com/modules/PRMS/display.asp?id=284

> >One shot a month.----

> >

> >FASLODEX (Fulvestrant) is another suicide inhibitor, or did

> >you already know this?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Phil,

Im curious have you ever had your liver enzymes checked?

I wonder why some people's livers are more prone to producing

estrogen enzymes, while others aren't?

I hope the new med works for you, keep us updated.

> Just thinking outloud here.

>

> Wouldn't a suicide inhibitor be a good thing, if it could

permanently

> disable the aromatese enzyme if we already have high Estrogen

> production. If this was the case, and estrogen modulation was done

> carefully, wouldn't we be able to lower E2 and Total estrogens' to

the

> point where we would no longer require any aromatese inhibitors in

the

> future.

>

> Thanks!

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'd like to see that study.

I used the stuff for a month or two a couple of years ago and did notice

increases in erection firmness, libido, etc. I was very unknowledgeable

about TRT at the time and the only blood tests my doctor at the time was

running were Total and Free T, so I don't have any idea how it actually

affected E/E2 levels. My results, while subjective, were real, not

imagined.

I stopped the stuff only because it was so expensive at the time. It seems

to be cheaper these days, by about 60%, if you look hard enough on the web.

> Re: Aromasin & Arimidex Total E and E2

>

>My experience with 6-OXO it didn't work for me. I have a study

>which shows it blocks the conversion from E1 to E2, it only

>marginally reduces E2 levels while substantially increasing E1

>and total E levels. It made things worse for me after a week of use.

>

> My Dr. is looking to try this on me next month.

>> >http://www.astrazeneca-us.com/modules/PRMS/display.asp?id=284

>> >One shot a month.----

>> >

>> >FASLODEX (Fulvestrant) is another suicide inhibitor, or did you

>> >already know this?

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >