Re: New And Trying to make sense of it all - Low T or Not??

[Guest guest]

Hi Alan and welcome,

Yes your levels are on the low side how to get go the bottom of why is what

you need to do. Going on T meds is for life. A lot of things can make a mans T

levels go down. Stress, low cortisol levels, bad Thyroid, Liver problems a

fatty liver is one the list goes on you need more testing. And if nothing is

wrong you should be treated by how you feel not your labs.

Go to www.allthingsmale.com and read TRT: A Recipe for Success and in this are

tests you need and why. If your Dr. is not up on this Dr. will work with

your Dr. to test and treat you. Ask your Dr. if he will do this. The big

problem we have is finding a Dr. that is up on low T some of use see many Dr.'s

till we find a good one.

At the home page on the left side is a list click on the links section and

read the links in there it's full of info.

Here is a link that shows levels by age and your is normal if you were 75 yrs.

old.

http://www.natural-hrt.com/andropause04.html

Phil

doberman1066 <doberman1066@...> wrote: Hey Guys,

Found this group recently during a search of informationand articles

on the Internet on low testosterone. Trying to understand it all

especially want " counts " as low T.

Some background, began feeling very run down to the point of not being

motivated to do anything even though I needed too. For example need to

be looking for a new job opportunity but do not feel the " drive " to do

so even though three kids and a spouse counting on me. Thought maybe

it was vitamins? poor eating habits and lack of exercise so could be

right? Got somewaht better but not great, made appointment with my

doctor. He suggested testing Testosterone, came back at 410 within the

normal range his message said. My research on the web suggests 300-400

is the cutoff for hypogonadism.

Took the ADAM questionaire on teh androgel site and felt the results

really pegged my problems, loss of libidio, no spontaneous erections,

the " brain fog " , lack of concentration, erections less firm, no

motivation. Have changed my diet and began exercising so I feel

somewhat better physically but still not altoghter right. I am going

back to my doctor this week and want to discuss the possiblity of

trying TRT to see if it helps clear up any on my symptoms. But unsure

the best approach to take without sounding like a fool? Any

suggestions? Is 410 really low for total T? What avenues should I ask

my Doc to explore next? Any help and advice would be geat, cant go on

living like this acting to tired for sex with my wife she is

eventually going to figure at something is wrong.

Thanks,

Alan

[Guest guest]

There is evidence that for the different parameters of sexual

function there are different testosterone serum threshold

levels. The parameters are nighttime erections, being able

to have sexual intercourse, and sexual desire.

Nighttime erections are the last to go and the first to return.

Threshold is greater than or equal to 400 ng/dl

Sexual Intercourse

Threshold is greater than or equal to 500 ng/dl

Sexual Desire

Threshold is greater than or equal to 600 ng/dl

Reference

Journal of Andrology Vol 25, No. 6

Nov/Dec 2004

" Restorative Increases in Serum Testosterone Levels

are Significantly Correlated to Improvements In

Sexual Functioning. "

D Stefel, Randall J. Mack, R. Secrest

and Ted M.

--------------------------------------------------

Those who say you are OK if your morning serum of

measured total testosterone is 250 or 300 ng/dl

are wrong, IMO.

-----------------------------------------------

And also consider this comment from a recent editorial article

in The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism Vol 89,

No. 12, 5916-5919 copyright 2004

" 3) The performance and reporting of total T assays are particularly

vexing. The late Dr. Longcope was a leader in hormone assays, and it

is clear that great care was taken in the Araujo et al. study to

control for issues such as circadian rhythm, repeat sampling, pooling

and storage of samples, the use of a well-validated RIA with

excellent performance characteristics, and assessment for loss of

immunoactivity during storage. Unfortunately, most clinicians are at

the mercy of commercial kit manufacturers and laboratories using high-

throughput automated analysers with an emphasis on short turn-around

times and cost reduction rather than accuracy. The performance of

commercial assay platforms has recently been evaluated against a

quantitative mass spectroscopy method and all showed substantial

biases that varied between platforms and across the working range,

especially at the lower end of greatest importance

to diagnosis of AD (15, 16). "

then it comments the following

" Platform-specific ranges are a potential quick fix, but kit

manufacturers must address the need for methods calibrated against

quantitative standards. All clinical algorithms include threshold

values, but one's confidence in their veracity is severely eroded by

knowledge of their current poor performance, putting the clinician in

an invidious situation. "

My comment......

Labs shouldn't be seen as have more than one significant figures, it

would seem. That is to say 270 pr 300 or 325 ng/dl as measurements go

may not mean too much; whereas, 300, 400, 500, 600 ng/dl may mean

something. Plus people vary in there response in

their response to testosterone levels.

>

> Hey Guys,

>

> Found this group recently during a search of informationand

articles

> on the Internet on low testosterone. Trying to understand it all

> especially want " counts " as low T.

>

> Some background, began feeling very run down to the point of not

being

> motivated to do anything even though I needed too. For example need

to

> be looking for a new job opportunity but do not feel the " drive " to

do

> so even though three kids and a spouse counting on me. Thought

maybe

> it was vitamins? poor eating habits and lack of exercise so could

be

> right? Got somewaht better but not great, made appointment with my

> doctor. He suggested testing Testosterone, came back at 410 within

the

> normal range his message said. My research on the web suggests 300-

400

> is the cutoff for hypogonadism.

>

> Took the ADAM questionaire on teh androgel site and felt the

results

> really pegged my problems, loss of libidio, no spontaneous

erections,

> the " brain fog " , lack of concentration, erections less firm, no

> motivation. Have changed my diet and began exercising so I feel

> somewhat better physically but still not altoghter right. I am

going

> back to my doctor this week and want to discuss the possiblity of

> trying TRT to see if it helps clear up any on my symptoms. But

unsure

> the best approach to take without sounding like a fool? Any

> suggestions? Is 410 really low for total T? What avenues should I

ask

> my Doc to explore next? Any help and advice would be geat, cant go

on

> living like this acting to tired for sex with my wife she is

> eventually going to figure at something is wrong.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Alan

>

[Guest guest]

I have been having problems with low energy, fatigue, and various

aches and pains. I have been to 9 doctors that with the various tests

has cost medicare about $15,000. My testosterone level is between 125

and 260, averages about the lower limit. 4 of the doctors offered

TRT. I tried it and it made no difference in the way I felt. About

half way through the various doctor process I started some research of

my own trying to match the symptoms up with probable cause. I decided

it might be thyroid. My TSH tests comes in the middle of the so

called normal range. I finally convinced the last doctor to do more

extensive thyroid testing. Blood test showed antibodies, and

ultrasound showed cysts which indicates Hashimoto's. A trail of

thyroid medication made a very substantial increase in energy level.

Now I just have to convince him to up the dose to get rid of the

neurological problems. Problem solved (hopefully) with a $4 a month

drug that has no adverse side effects.

The moral to the story is do research to find what matches your

symptoms, most doctors seem to ignore symptoms and look at numbers. I

function fine a testosterone level half of what yours is, so it may or

may not be a problem. More important does it match you symptoms the

best? TRT does have some negative effects and normally becomes a

lifetime treatment. Many have benefited from TRT but be sure it is

what you need before you do it permanently. I did a 6 week trail. It

had negative impact on my blood chemistry, with no positive effects.

Since stopping everything returned to normal.

>

> Hey Guys,

>

> Found this group recently during a search of informationand articles

> on the Internet on low testosterone. Trying to understand it all

> especially want " counts " as low T.

>

> Some background, began feeling very run down to the point of not being

> motivated to do anything even though I needed too. For example need to

> be looking for a new job opportunity but do not feel the " drive " to do

> so even though three kids and a spouse counting on me. Thought maybe

> it was vitamins? poor eating habits and lack of exercise so could be

> right? Got somewaht better but not great, made appointment with my

> doctor. He suggested testing Testosterone, came back at 410 within the

> normal range his message said. My research on the web suggests 300-400

> is the cutoff for hypogonadism.

>

> Took the ADAM questionaire on teh androgel site and felt the results

> really pegged my problems, loss of libidio, no spontaneous erections,

> the " brain fog " , lack of concentration, erections less firm, no

> motivation. Have changed my diet and began exercising so I feel

> somewhat better physically but still not altoghter right. I am going

> back to my doctor this week and want to discuss the possiblity of

> trying TRT to see if it helps clear up any on my symptoms. But unsure

> the best approach to take without sounding like a fool? Any

> suggestions? Is 410 really low for total T? What avenues should I ask

> my Doc to explore next? Any help and advice would be geat, cant go on

> living like this acting to tired for sex with my wife she is

> eventually going to figure at something is wrong.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Alan

>

[Guest guest]

I am betting you T levels will come up once you get leveled off on your thyroid.

Check out this site.

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

With your problem you need to check out your cortisol levels most have low my

wife has Hashimoto's and they had her on synthroid for 15 yr. she never felt

good on it and I finely got her to stop seeing Endo's and now she has a good Dr.

treating her Adrenal Fatigue and Thyroid with Armour. Now she is feeling good.

Phil

rayr_us <rayr_us@...> wrote:

I have been having problems with low energy, fatigue, and various

aches and pains. I have been to 9 doctors that with the various tests

has cost medicare about $15,000. My testosterone level is between 125

and 260, averages about the lower limit. 4 of the doctors offered

TRT. I tried it and it made no difference in the way I felt. About

half way through the various doctor process I started some research of

my own trying to match the symptoms up with probable cause. I decided

it might be thyroid. My TSH tests comes in the middle of the so

called normal range. I finally convinced the last doctor to do more

extensive thyroid testing. Blood test showed antibodies, and

ultrasound showed cysts which indicates Hashimoto's. A trail of

thyroid medication made a very substantial increase in energy level.

Now I just have to convince him to up the dose to get rid of the

neurological problems. Problem solved (hopefully) with a $4 a month

drug that has no adverse side effects.

The moral to the story is do research to find what matches your

symptoms, most doctors seem to ignore symptoms and look at numbers. I

function fine a testosterone level half of what yours is, so it may or

may not be a problem. More important does it match you symptoms the

best? TRT does have some negative effects and normally becomes a

lifetime treatment. Many have benefited from TRT but be sure it is

what you need before you do it permanently. I did a 6 week trail. It

had negative impact on my blood chemistry, with no positive effects.

Since stopping everything returned to normal.

>

> Hey Guys,

>

> Found this group recently during a search of informationand articles

> on the Internet on low testosterone. Trying to understand it all

> especially want " counts " as low T.

>

> Some background, began feeling very run down to the point of not being

> motivated to do anything even though I needed too. For example need to

> be looking for a new job opportunity but do not feel the " drive " to do

> so even though three kids and a spouse counting on me. Thought maybe

> it was vitamins? poor eating habits and lack of exercise so could be

> right? Got somewaht better but not great, made appointment with my

> doctor. He suggested testing Testosterone, came back at 410 within the

> normal range his message said. My research on the web suggests 300-400

> is the cutoff for hypogonadism.

>

> Took the ADAM questionaire on teh androgel site and felt the results

> really pegged my problems, loss of libidio, no spontaneous erections,

> the " brain fog " , lack of concentration, erections less firm, no

> motivation. Have changed my diet and began exercising so I feel

> somewhat better physically but still not altoghter right. I am going

> back to my doctor this week and want to discuss the possiblity of

> trying TRT to see if it helps clear up any on my symptoms. But unsure

> the best approach to take without sounding like a fool? Any

> suggestions? Is 410 really low for total T? What avenues should I ask

> my Doc to explore next? Any help and advice would be geat, cant go on

> living like this acting to tired for sex with my wife she is

> eventually going to figure at something is wrong.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Alan

>

[Guest guest]

DOn't forget to check thyroid function:

TSH (new range is .3 - 3.0, forget what the lab says)

Free t3 should be over mid range, but top 1/4 of range is best

Free t4 should be over mid range, but top 1/4 of range is best

thyroid antibodies (to rule out autoimmune thyroid disease)

> Hey Guys,

>

> Found this group recently during a search of informationand articles

> on the Internet on low testosterone. Trying to understand it all

> especially want " counts " as low T.

>

> Some background, began feeling very run down to the point of not being

> motivated to do anything even though I needed too. For example need to

> be looking for a new job opportunity but do not feel the " drive " to do

> so even though three kids and a spouse counting on me. Thought maybe

> it was vitamins? poor eating habits and lack of exercise so could be

> right? Got somewaht better but not great, made appointment with my

> doctor. He suggested testing Testosterone, came back at 410 within the

> normal range his message said. My research on the web suggests 300-400

> is the cutoff for hypogonadism.

>

> Took the ADAM questionaire on teh androgel site and felt the results

> really pegged my problems, loss of libidio, no spontaneous erections,

> the " brain fog " , lack of concentration, erections less firm, no

> motivation. Have changed my diet and began exercising so I feel

> somewhat better physically but still not altoghter right. I am going

> back to my doctor this week and want to discuss the possiblity of

> trying TRT to see if it helps clear up any on my symptoms. But unsure

> the best approach to take without sounding like a fool? Any

> suggestions? Is 410 really low for total T? What avenues should I ask

> my Doc to explore next? Any help and advice would be geat, cant go on

> living like this acting to tired for sex with my wife she is

> eventually going to figure at something is wrong.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Alan

>

[Guest guest]

>

> He suggested testing Testosterone, came back at 410 within the

> normal range his message said. My research on the web suggests 300-400

> is the cutoff for hypogonadism.

There is no magic number cutoff for hypogonadism. Having said that,

there are many doctors who will treat the lower limit of the reference

range as a cutoff or have some other cutoff in mind.

>

> Took the ADAM questionaire on teh androgel site and felt the results

> really pegged my problems, loss of libidio, no spontaneous erections,

> the " brain fog " , lack of concentration, erections less firm, no

> motivation. Have changed my diet and began exercising so I feel

> somewhat better physically but still not altoghter right. I am going

> back to my doctor this week and want to discuss the possiblity of

> trying TRT to see if it helps clear up any on my symptoms. But unsure

> the best approach to take without sounding like a fool? Any

> suggestions? Is 410 really low for total T?

My total t level when diagnosed was about the same as yours is now. I

turned out to have primary hypogonadism. I responded rather quickly

to Androgel.

> What avenues should I ask

> my Doc to explore next?

If you haven't already done so, you should read " Reference Ranges and

What They Mean " ;

http://www.labtestsonline.org/understanding/features/ref_ranges.html

Also the AACE Clinical Guidelines:

http://www.aace.com/pub/pdf/guidelines/hypogonadism.pdf

I would suggest screening for hemochromatosis and elevated prolactin

(see the AACE document). While you're at it, get your LH and FSH

levels and repeat total t. Depending on your LH,FSH, and total t, I

would next consider the clomiphene stimulation test or hcg stimulation

test (see the AACE document). Next, I would do a clinical trial of

testosterone (or hcg, if appropriate).

> Any help and advice would be geat, cant go on

> living like this acting to tired for sex with my wife she is

> eventually going to figure at something is wrong.

>

I suggest being honest with your wife. If you don't tell her

something is wrong with you, she'll think there's something wrong with

her.

Brad

[Guest guest]

I could not agree more with everything Brad has said

below. More importantly..be honest with your wife!

The fix isn't quick...and you'll need her support

while fixing the problem. Also, like Brad said, you

don't want her to think its her.

Brad..when you say u were diagnosed primary is cuz you

didn't respond well to the stim test? what were your

LH/FSH values? also, did u ever have a sperm analysis

done?

Thanks

Jack

--- brad999us <no_reply > wrote:

>

> >

> > He suggested testing Testosterone, came back at

> 410 within the

> > normal range his message said. My research on the

> web suggests 300-400

> > is the cutoff for hypogonadism.

>

> There is no magic number cutoff for hypogonadism.

> Having said that,

> there are many doctors who will treat the lower

> limit of the reference

> range as a cutoff or have some other cutoff in mind.

>

> >

> > Took the ADAM questionaire on teh androgel site

> and felt the results

> > really pegged my problems, loss of libidio, no

> spontaneous erections,

> > the " brain fog " , lack of concentration, erections

> less firm, no

> > motivation. Have changed my diet and began

> exercising so I feel

> > somewhat better physically but still not altoghter

> right. I am going

> > back to my doctor this week and want to discuss

> the possiblity of

> > trying TRT to see if it helps clear up any on my

> symptoms. But unsure

> > the best approach to take without sounding like a

> fool? Any

> > suggestions? Is 410 really low for total T?

>

> My total t level when diagnosed was about the same

> as yours is now. I

> turned out to have primary hypogonadism. I

> responded rather quickly

> to Androgel.

>

> > What avenues should I ask

> > my Doc to explore next?

>

> If you haven't already done so, you should read

> " Reference Ranges and

> What They Mean " ;

>

>

http://www.labtestsonline.org/understanding/features/ref_ranges.html

>

> Also the AACE Clinical Guidelines:

>

>

http://www.aace.com/pub/pdf/guidelines/hypogonadism.pdf

>

> I would suggest screening for hemochromatosis and

> elevated prolactin

> (see the AACE document). While you're at it, get

> your LH and FSH

> levels and repeat total t. Depending on your

> LH,FSH, and total t, I

> would next consider the clomiphene stimulation test

> or hcg stimulation

> test (see the AACE document). Next, I would do a

> clinical trial of

> testosterone (or hcg, if appropriate).

>

> > Any help and advice would be geat, cant go on

> > living like this acting to tired for sex with my

> wife she is

> > eventually going to figure at something is wrong.

> >

>

> I suggest being honest with your wife. If you don't

> tell her

> something is wrong with you, she'll think there's

> something wrong with

> her.

>

> Brad

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Brad..when you say u were diagnosed primary is cuz you

> didn't respond well to the stim test? what were your

> LH/FSH values? also, did u ever have a sperm analysis

> done?

> Thanks

> Jack

>

I had the clomiphene stim test. My lh & fsh went from about the

mid-point of the range before clomid to the top of the range after

clomid. Testosterone did not change.

Fertility wasn't a concern for me so I didn't have a semen analysis.

Brad

[Guest guest]

Hi is there any study saying this about FT 3 & 4 that I could show my Dr.

My last test was.

TSH is 2.939 range 0.4 to 4.7 uIU/mL

Free T3 is 2.32 range 1.5 to 3.5 pg/mL

Free T4 is 0.91 range 0.71 to 2.23 ng/dl

And my Dr. says it is ok yet my morning temp is 97 before getting out of bed.

I am on Isocort for Adrenal Fatigue yet I still feel bad in the morning.

I will be seeing my Dr. in a week and we did new tests checking Antibodies. I

don't feel the Isocort is going to bring my thyroid levels up like my Dr. says.

So I need something to show him when I see him.

Thanks Phil

<d_timmsjosey@...> wrote:

DOn't forget to check thyroid function:

TSH (new range is .3 - 3.0, forget what the lab says)

Free t3 should be over mid range, but top 1/4 of range is best

Free t4 should be over mid range, but top 1/4 of range is best

thyroid antibodies (to rule out autoimmune thyroid disease)

> Hey Guys,

>

> Found this group recently during a search of informationand articles

> on the Internet on low testosterone. Trying to understand it all

> especially want " counts " as low T.

>

> Some background, began feeling very run down to the point of not being

> motivated to do anything even though I needed too. For example need to

> be looking for a new job opportunity but do not feel the " drive " to do

> so even though three kids and a spouse counting on me. Thought maybe

> it was vitamins? poor eating habits and lack of exercise so could be

> right? Got somewaht better but not great, made appointment with my

> doctor. He suggested testing Testosterone, came back at 410 within the

> normal range his message said. My research on the web suggests 300-400

> is the cutoff for hypogonadism.

>

> Took the ADAM questionaire on teh androgel site and felt the results

> really pegged my problems, loss of libidio, no spontaneous erections,

> the " brain fog " , lack of concentration, erections less firm, no

> motivation. Have changed my diet and began exercising so I feel

> somewhat better physically but still not altoghter right. I am going

> back to my doctor this week and want to discuss the possiblity of

> trying TRT to see if it helps clear up any on my symptoms. But unsure

> the best approach to take without sounding like a fool? Any

> suggestions? Is 410 really low for total T? What avenues should I ask

> my Doc to explore next? Any help and advice would be geat, cant go on

> living like this acting to tired for sex with my wife she is

> eventually going to figure at something is wrong.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Alan

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil,

I passed the Adrenal stimulation test with my Cortisol being low

normal. His solution to low Cortisol was Prednisone. I was

unreceptive to a lifetime of that drug. I expect the testosterone

level will increase, but my symptoms are more in line with thyroid

rather than testosterone. So far the T4 medication seems to work

wonders for me. I can understand how Armour will work better than T4

only, but I haven't heard of people switching from a combination of T3

& T4 to Armour. Did your wife every try to supplement with synthetic

T3? I think I would have lost patience long before 15 years of

feeling bad.

> I have been having problems with low energy, fatigue, and various

> aches and pains. I have been to 9 doctors that with the various tests

> has cost medicare about $15,000. My testosterone level is between 125

> and 260, averages about the lower limit. 4 of the doctors offered

> TRT. I tried it and it made no difference in the way I felt. About

> half way through the various doctor process I started some research of

> my own trying to match the symptoms up with probable cause. I decided

> it might be thyroid. My TSH tests comes in the middle of the so

> called normal range. I finally convinced the last doctor to do more

> extensive thyroid testing. Blood test showed antibodies, and

> ultrasound showed cysts which indicates Hashimoto's. A trail of

> thyroid medication made a very substantial increase in energy level.

> Now I just have to convince him to up the dose to get rid of the

> neurological problems. Problem solved (hopefully) with a $4 a month

> drug that has no adverse side effects.

>

> The moral to the story is do research to find what matches your

> symptoms, most doctors seem to ignore symptoms and look at numbers. I

> function fine a testosterone level half of what yours is, so it may or

> may not be a problem. More important does it match you symptoms the

> best? TRT does have some negative effects and normally becomes a

> lifetime treatment. Many have benefited from TRT but be sure it is

> what you need before you do it permanently. I did a 6 week trail. It

> had negative impact on my blood chemistry, with no positive effects.

> Since stopping everything returned to normal.

>

[Guest guest]

I think if you go to the link you will find the answers all the answers you

need. Yes my wife did try synthetic T3 problem was they did not know to test

her for Adrenal Fatigue you can take all the T4 and T3 in the world but if your

Adrenals are low the cortisol is not there to put the meds form you blood to the

cells.

Phil

rayr_us <rayr_us@...> wrote:

Hi Phil,

I passed the Adrenal stimulation test with my Cortisol being low

normal. His solution to low Cortisol was Prednisone. I was

unreceptive to a lifetime of that drug. I expect the testosterone

level will increase, but my symptoms are more in line with thyroid

rather than testosterone. So far the T4 medication seems to work

wonders for me. I can understand how Armour will work better than T4

only, but I haven't heard of people switching from a combination of T3

& T4 to Armour. Did your wife every try to supplement with synthetic

T3? I think I would have lost patience long before 15 years of

feeling bad.

> I have been having problems with low energy, fatigue, and various

> aches and pains. I have been to 9 doctors that with the various tests

> has cost medicare about $15,000. My testosterone level is between 125

> and 260, averages about the lower limit. 4 of the doctors offered

> TRT. I tried it and it made no difference in the way I felt. About

> half way through the various doctor process I started some research of

> my own trying to match the symptoms up with probable cause. I decided

> it might be thyroid. My TSH tests comes in the middle of the so

> called normal range. I finally convinced the last doctor to do more

> extensive thyroid testing. Blood test showed antibodies, and

> ultrasound showed cysts which indicates Hashimoto's. A trail of

> thyroid medication made a very substantial increase in energy level.

> Now I just have to convince him to up the dose to get rid of the

> neurological problems. Problem solved (hopefully) with a $4 a month

> drug that has no adverse side effects.

>

> The moral to the story is do research to find what matches your

> symptoms, most doctors seem to ignore symptoms and look at numbers. I

> function fine a testosterone level half of what yours is, so it may or

> may not be a problem. More important does it match you symptoms the

> best? TRT does have some negative effects and normally becomes a

> lifetime treatment. Many have benefited from TRT but be sure it is

> what you need before you do it permanently. I did a 6 week trail. It

> had negative impact on my blood chemistry, with no positive effects.

> Since stopping everything returned to normal.

>

[Guest guest]

Ray,

Armour Thyroid is a combo of T4 and T3. Cytomel is a T3 drug used a

lot when thyroid cancer patients have to go off their T4 in

preperation for thyroid scans and radiation. I see quite a few

hypothyroid folks on a Synthroid plus Cytomel because each can be

seperately dosed. T3 can have some wicked cardiac side effects if

the body doesn't need it or the dose is too high. Some people just

don't convert T4 to T3 well however, and need the T3. Glad to hear

you're doing better on the T4. Hope it does the trick for you!

Armour can be compounded to any T3/T4 dose a Physician orders though

so spending extra on both a T4 and a T3 seems like an expensive way

to go to me. I take 120mg of Armour myself. I began with 60mg when I

came off synthroid and slowly worked up to the 120. Had to switch

brands to the name brand because the one labled as Thyroid-1 just

didn't work well. Fillers and binders will sometimes alter how a

body uses certain drugs. You guys learned that can happen with the

testosterone gels and creams. The only draw back...T3 has such a

short half-life that Armour has to be split and taken twice a day

instead of just once.

Phil, I can relate to your wife! 10 years of dinking around with

T4's and all I got was worse over time. Armour made all the

difference in the world. Vickie

In , " rayr_us " <rayr_us@...> wrote:

>

> Hi Phil,

>

> I passed the Adrenal stimulation test with my Cortisol being low

> normal. His solution to low Cortisol was Prednisone. I was

> unreceptive to a lifetime of that drug. I expect the testosterone

> level will increase, but my symptoms are more in line with thyroid

> rather than testosterone. So far the T4 medication seems to work

> wonders for me. I can understand how Armour will work better than

T4

> only, but I haven't heard of people switching from a combination

of T3

> & T4 to Armour. Did your wife every try to supplement with

synthetic

> T3? I think I would have lost patience long before 15 years of

> feeling bad.

>

>

>

>

> > I have been having problems with low energy, fatigue, and

various

> > aches and pains. I have been to 9 doctors that with the various

tests

> > has cost medicare about $15,000. My testosterone level is

between 125

> > and 260, averages about the lower limit. 4 of the doctors offered

> > TRT. I tried it and it made no difference in the way I felt.

About

> > half way through the various doctor process I started some

research of

> > my own trying to match the symptoms up with probable cause. I

decided

> > it might be thyroid. My TSH tests comes in the middle of the so

> > called normal range. I finally convinced the last doctor to do

more

> > extensive thyroid testing. Blood test showed antibodies, and

> > ultrasound showed cysts which indicates Hashimoto's. A trail of

> > thyroid medication made a very substantial increase in energy

level.

> > Now I just have to convince him to up the dose to get rid of the

> > neurological problems. Problem solved (hopefully) with a $4 a

month

> > drug that has no adverse side effects.

> >

> > The moral to the story is do research to find what matches your

> > symptoms, most doctors seem to ignore symptoms and look at

numbers. I

> > function fine a testosterone level half of what yours is, so it

may or

> > may not be a problem. More important does it match you symptoms

the

> > best? TRT does have some negative effects and normally becomes a

> > lifetime treatment. Many have benefited from TRT but be sure it

is

> > what you need before you do it permanently. I did a 6 week

trail. It

> > had negative impact on my blood chemistry, with no positive

effects.

> > Since stopping everything returned to normal.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Vickie I understand from this site that the avg. dose of Armour is 3 grains when

my wife got up to 120mgs. she ended up in the ER we though she was having a

heart attack turns out the Armour was not leaving her blood stream and going

into her cells because her cortisol and ferritin levels were so low. So she

went hyper.

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

When we told her Dr. we read this at this site he said her levels are good on

her blood test. Yet she did not feel good at all so we went to Armour's site

and found a Dr. there in are city and now he tested and is treating her he said

it may take a good yr. treating her Adrenal Fatiuge before he can up her dose of

Armour. So he found her also very low on DHEA. His treating the low DHEA and

giving her supplements for the Adrenal Fatigue she now feels her best in over 15

yrs. Her new Dr. told us being on Synthroid for so long and not gettting the

T3 she needed did this to her adrenal's.

Phil

Vickie <plp40@...> wrote:

Ray,

Armour Thyroid is a combo of T4 and T3. Cytomel is a T3 drug used a

lot when thyroid cancer patients have to go off their T4 in

preperation for thyroid scans and radiation. I see quite a few

hypothyroid folks on a Synthroid plus Cytomel because each can be

seperately dosed. T3 can have some wicked cardiac side effects if

the body doesn't need it or the dose is too high. Some people just

don't convert T4 to T3 well however, and need the T3. Glad to hear

you're doing better on the T4. Hope it does the trick for you!

Armour can be compounded to any T3/T4 dose a Physician orders though

so spending extra on both a T4 and a T3 seems like an expensive way

to go to me. I take 120mg of Armour myself. I began with 60mg when I

came off synthroid and slowly worked up to the 120. Had to switch

brands to the name brand because the one labled as Thyroid-1 just

didn't work well. Fillers and binders will sometimes alter how a

body uses certain drugs. You guys learned that can happen with the

testosterone gels and creams. The only draw back...T3 has such a

short half-life that Armour has to be split and taken twice a day

instead of just once.

Phil, I can relate to your wife! 10 years of dinking around with

T4's and all I got was worse over time. Armour made all the

difference in the world. Vickie

In , " rayr_us " wrote:

>

> Hi Phil,

>

> I passed the Adrenal stimulation test with my Cortisol being low

> normal. His solution to low Cortisol was Prednisone. I was

> unreceptive to a lifetime of that drug. I expect the testosterone

> level will increase, but my symptoms are more in line with thyroid

> rather than testosterone. So far the T4 medication seems to work

> wonders for me. I can understand how Armour will work better than

T4

> only, but I haven't heard of people switching from a combination

of T3

> & T4 to Armour. Did your wife every try to supplement with

synthetic

> T3? I think I would have lost patience long before 15 years of

> feeling bad.

>

>

>

>

> > I have been having problems with low energy, fatigue, and

various

> > aches and pains. I have been to 9 doctors that with the various

tests

> > has cost medicare about $15,000. My testosterone level is

between 125

> > and 260, averages about the lower limit. 4 of the doctors offered

> > TRT. I tried it and it made no difference in the way I felt.

About

> > half way through the various doctor process I started some

research of

> > my own trying to match the symptoms up with probable cause. I

decided

> > it might be thyroid. My TSH tests comes in the middle of the so

> > called normal range. I finally convinced the last doctor to do

more

> > extensive thyroid testing. Blood test showed antibodies, and

> > ultrasound showed cysts which indicates Hashimoto's. A trail of

> > thyroid medication made a very substantial increase in energy

level.

> > Now I just have to convince him to up the dose to get rid of the

> > neurological problems. Problem solved (hopefully) with a $4 a

month

> > drug that has no adverse side effects.

> >

> > The moral to the story is do research to find what matches your

> > symptoms, most doctors seem to ignore symptoms and look at

numbers. I

> > function fine a testosterone level half of what yours is, so it

may or

> > may not be a problem. More important does it match you symptoms

the

> > best? TRT does have some negative effects and normally becomes a

> > lifetime treatment. Many have benefited from TRT but be sure it

is

> > what you need before you do it permanently. I did a 6 week

trail. It

> > had negative impact on my blood chemistry, with no positive

effects.

> > Since stopping everything returned to normal.

> >

>