Re: Experience with Androgel

[Guest guest]

Hey Tomas,

Have you considered trying another form of T like shots? While you say your T

is in range, maybe it still is not high enough. You might consider talking to

your Doc about a trial with shots. This will allow you to get your T in 1000-800

range. For me, things improved when I went that high in the libido and erection

range. When I combined that with 2 low doses of cialis a week (Thanks Phil) it

made a big difference. Running that high did require me to use arimidex for E2

control but yours seems in good condition.

Arkansas

Tomas D Bertmark <tomas.bertmark@...> wrote:

I have been on androgel for about 13 months and have a mixed bag of

results to report for anyone interested. My experience is my own, and

as we know (I guess) T is not the only factor in the equation. At the

end of this post you can see my various testresults from just before

Androgel until last month.

The first month or so the results were as reported by many others -

increased sense of well being, more stamina, somewhat improved

erectile function.

What remains after a year is the sense of well being. Depressive

tendencies gone or supressed. More alert, and " sluggishness/mental

fog " show up rather infrequently. Erectile function however is just

as bad as before and ejaculatory problems persist. Libido has not

improved, sometimes it is there in force but with the ED and Ejac

problems, who really cares. Even with Viagra, Cialis, Levitra the

results are less than stellar.

Started with one bag of 25 mg, upped to 2 x 25 after a month.

Increased to 2 x 50 after 4 months and have stayed there, since T

values are well in range, which they were not at the lower dose. Have

done twice a day and felt OK, but is now applying one dose of 10 mg

in the morning.

Still looking for the magic bullet. Androgel it is not, but maybe a

mix with something else - but what. Have done Tongkat Ali, Maca,

Progesterone, high Zinc intake, low Zinc intake, Dostinex and L-

Carnitine as well as L-Arginine.

Date_________T____E2____SHBG__PRL__DHEAS__PSA

14-09-2005__182___N/A___N/A__N/A___N/A___7,38

29-09-2005__280___N/A___21___9,0__167,2__6,38

31-10-2005__386__13,90__29___9,0__129,2__5,43

06-12-2005__501__24,00__17__12,0__178,6__5,12

06-02-2006__406__22,00__20__12,0__171,0__4,93

06-04-2006__492__24,75__17___8,0__186,2__5,39

25-09-2006__697__19,04__17___3,0__155,8__6,89

Just sharing. All comments appreciated.

---------------------------------

Sponsored Link

Get an Online or Campus degree - Associate's, Bachelor's, or Master's -in less

than one year.

[Guest guest]

Thank you Arkansas for your input. My Urologist suggested shots to

begin with (Nebido - one shot every 3 mos), but I declined due to

unease over PSA values. Wanted to control my T input while I

monitored the PSA. But I guess now that I know my PSA will not

skyrocket shots could be tried. Have anyone here experience from

Nebido ?

> I have been on androgel for about 13 months and have a

mixed bag of

> results to report for anyone interested. My experience is my own,

and

> as we know (I guess) T is not the only factor in the equation. At

the

> end of this post you can see my various testresults from just

before

> Androgel until last month.

>

> The first month or so the results were as reported by many others -

> increased sense of well being, more stamina, somewhat improved

> erectile function.

>

> What remains after a year is the sense of well being. Depressive

> tendencies gone or supressed. More alert, and " sluggishness/mental

> fog " show up rather infrequently. Erectile function however is just

> as bad as before and ejaculatory problems persist. Libido has not

> improved, sometimes it is there in force but with the ED and Ejac

> problems, who really cares. Even with Viagra, Cialis, Levitra the

> results are less than stellar.

>

> Started with one bag of 25 mg, upped to 2 x 25 after a month.

> Increased to 2 x 50 after 4 months and have stayed there, since T

> values are well in range, which they were not at the lower dose.

Have

> done twice a day and felt OK, but is now applying one dose of 10 mg

> in the morning.

>

> Still looking for the magic bullet. Androgel it is not, but maybe a

> mix with something else - but what. Have done Tongkat Ali, Maca,

> Progesterone, high Zinc intake, low Zinc intake, Dostinex and L-

> Carnitine as well as L-Arginine.

>

> Date_________T____E2____SHBG__PRL__DHEAS__PSA

>

> 14-09-2005__182___N/A___N/A__N/A___N/A___7,38

> 29-09-2005__280___N/A___21___9,0__167,2__6,38

> 31-10-2005__386__13,90__29___9,0__129,2__5,43

> 06-12-2005__501__24,00__17__12,0__178,6__5,12

> 06-02-2006__406__22,00__20__12,0__171,0__4,93

> 06-04-2006__492__24,75__17___8,0__186,2__5,39

> 25-09-2006__697__19,04__17___3,0__155,8__6,89

>

> Just sharing. All comments appreciated.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Sponsored Link

>

> Get an Online or Campus degree - Associate's, Bachelor's, or

Master's -in less than one year.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dan - Forgot to ask you a further question. What shots do you take,

and does not the serum T level vary a lot between the first days

after the shot the the last days before the next shot ? Do you

supplement with gel at the end of the shotcycle or does the shot

really give you a sufficient level the whole time ?

Tomas

> I have been on androgel for about 13 months and have a

mixed bag of

> results to report for anyone interested. My experience is my own,

and

> as we know (I guess) T is not the only factor in the equation. At

the

> end of this post you can see my various testresults from just

before

> Androgel until last month.

>

> The first month or so the results were as reported by many others -

> increased sense of well being, more stamina, somewhat improved

> erectile function.

>

> What remains after a year is the sense of well being. Depressive

> tendencies gone or supressed. More alert, and " sluggishness/mental

> fog " show up rather infrequently. Erectile function however is just

> as bad as before and ejaculatory problems persist. Libido has not

> improved, sometimes it is there in force but with the ED and Ejac

> problems, who really cares. Even with Viagra, Cialis, Levitra the

> results are less than stellar.

>

> Started with one bag of 25 mg, upped to 2 x 25 after a month.

> Increased to 2 x 50 after 4 months and have stayed there, since T

> values are well in range, which they were not at the lower dose.

Have

> done twice a day and felt OK, but is now applying one dose of 10 mg

> in the morning.

>

> Still looking for the magic bullet. Androgel it is not, but maybe a

> mix with something else - but what. Have done Tongkat Ali, Maca,

> Progesterone, high Zinc intake, low Zinc intake, Dostinex and L-

> Carnitine as well as L-Arginine.

>

> Date_________T____E2____SHBG__PRL__DHEAS__PSA

>

> 14-09-2005__182___N/A___N/A__N/A___N/A___7,38

> 29-09-2005__280___N/A___21___9,0__167,2__6,38

> 31-10-2005__386__13,90__29___9,0__129,2__5,43

> 06-12-2005__501__24,00__17__12,0__178,6__5,12

> 06-02-2006__406__22,00__20__12,0__171,0__4,93

> 06-04-2006__492__24,75__17___8,0__186,2__5,39

> 25-09-2006__697__19,04__17___3,0__155,8__6,89

>

> Just sharing. All comments appreciated.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Sponsored Link

>

> Get an Online or Campus degree - Associate's, Bachelor's, or

Master's -in less than one year.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I can not express how important frequent shots are. First you don't get extreme

ups and downs and I believe E2 is controlled better. See what options they will

offer for 7 day cycles. Nebido is relatively new so there is not a lot of

experience. Here in the states, we primarily use Testosterone Cypionate (DEPO)

or Testosterone Enanthate. Both act in a similar fashion. My PSA did increase

slightly when I went on shots. 0.5 to 1.9. PSA is really subjective to a certain

extent. It is really better for trending not necesarrily that a specific value

means anything.

Arkansas

teedeebeey <no_reply > wrote:

Thank you Arkansas for your input. My Urologist suggested shots to

begin with (Nebido - one shot every 3 mos), but I declined due to

unease over PSA values. Wanted to control my T input while I

monitored the PSA. But I guess now that I know my PSA will not

skyrocket shots could be tried. Have anyone here experience from

Nebido ?

> I have been on androgel for about 13 months and have a

mixed bag of

> results to report for anyone interested. My experience is my own,

and

> as we know (I guess) T is not the only factor in the equation. At

the

> end of this post you can see my various testresults from just

before

> Androgel until last month.

>

> The first month or so the results were as reported by many others -

> increased sense of well being, more stamina, somewhat improved

> erectile function.

>

> What remains after a year is the sense of well being. Depressive

> tendencies gone or supressed. More alert, and " sluggishness/mental

> fog " show up rather infrequently. Erectile function however is just

> as bad as before and ejaculatory problems persist. Libido has not

> improved, sometimes it is there in force but with the ED and Ejac

> problems, who really cares. Even with Viagra, Cialis, Levitra the

> results are less than stellar.

>

> Started with one bag of 25 mg, upped to 2 x 25 after a month.

> Increased to 2 x 50 after 4 months and have stayed there, since T

> values are well in range, which they were not at the lower dose.

Have

> done twice a day and felt OK, but is now applying one dose of 10 mg

> in the morning.

>

> Still looking for the magic bullet. Androgel it is not, but maybe a

> mix with something else - but what. Have done Tongkat Ali, Maca,

> Progesterone, high Zinc intake, low Zinc intake, Dostinex and L-

> Carnitine as well as L-Arginine.

>

> Date_________T____E2____SHBG__PRL__DHEAS__PSA

>

> 14-09-2005__182___N/A___N/A__N/A___N/A___7,38

> 29-09-2005__280___N/A___21___9,0__167,2__6,38

> 31-10-2005__386__13,90__29___9,0__129,2__5,43

> 06-12-2005__501__24,00__17__12,0__178,6__5,12

> 06-02-2006__406__22,00__20__12,0__171,0__4,93

> 06-04-2006__492__24,75__17___8,0__186,2__5,39

> 25-09-2006__697__19,04__17___3,0__155,8__6,89

>

> Just sharing. All comments appreciated.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Sponsored Link

>

> Get an Online or Campus degree - Associate's, Bachelor's, or

Master's -in less than one year.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Try Ginkoba- 1 to 2 tabs in the AM. You can purchase it at any drug

store and most large grocery stores. It's medically known to increase

" blood flow " throughout the entire body, including the penis. Your

vital organs will also benefit. You'd be surprised how well it works

for ED. It also positively effects my libido.

Good luck.

Bill

On Nov 22, 2006, at 6:58 AM, Tomas D Bertmark wrote:

> I have been on androgel for about 13 months and have a mixed bag of

> results to report for anyone interested. My experience is my own, and

> as we know (I guess) T is not the only factor in the equation. At the

> end of this post you can see my various testresults from just before

> Androgel until last month.

>

> The first month or so the results were as reported by many others -

> increased sense of well being, more stamina, somewhat improved

> erectile function.

>

> What remains after a year is the sense of well being. Depressive

> tendencies gone or supressed. More alert, and " sluggishness/mental

> fog " show up rather infrequently. Erectile function however is just

> as bad as before and ejaculatory problems persist. Libido has not

> improved, sometimes it is there in force but with the ED and Ejac

> problems, who really cares. Even with Viagra, Cialis, Levitra the

> results are less than stellar.

>

> Started with one bag of 25 mg, upped to 2 x 25 after a month.

> Increased to 2 x 50 after 4 months and have stayed there, since T

> values are well in range, which they were not at the lower dose. Have

> done twice a day and felt OK, but is now applying one dose of 10 mg

> in the morning.

>

> Still looking for the magic bullet. Androgel it is not, but maybe a

> mix with something else - but what. Have done Tongkat Ali, Maca,

> Progesterone, high Zinc intake, low Zinc intake, Dostinex and L-

> Carnitine as well as L-Arginine.

>

> Date_________T____E2____SHBG__PRL__DHEAS__PSA

>

> 14-09-2005__182___N/A___N/A__N/A___N/A___7,38

> 29-09-2005__280___N/A___21___9,0__167,2__6,38

> 31-10-2005__386__13,90__29___9,0__129,2__5,43

> 06-12-2005__501__24,00__17__12,0__178,6__5,12

> 06-02-2006__406__22,00__20__12,0__171,0__4,93

> 06-04-2006__492__24,75__17___8,0__186,2__5,39

> 25-09-2006__697__19,04__17___3,0__155,8__6,89

>

> Just sharing. All comments appreciated.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Tomas I feel you need your Estradiol checked with a test like this.

http://www.labcorp.com/datasets/labcorp/html/chapter/mono/sr012000.htm

Your tests you posted don't have the units or the ranges but I had this

problem for yrs on TRT and it was high Estradiol when I got it down my ED got

80% better and I could have an orgasm for the first time in 10 yrs. I now do

Cialis 20 mgs. every 72hrs. and can have sex anytime I am 63. If my Estradiol

goes to high or to low taking Cialis does not help I can 't get it up. I take

arimidex to keep my E2 down and use my morning wood as a gauge to not go to low.

Phil

Tomas D Bertmark <tomas.bertmark@...> wrote:

I have been on androgel for about 13 months and have a mixed bag of

results to report for anyone interested. My experience is my own, and

as we know (I guess) T is not the only factor in the equation. At the

end of this post you can see my various testresults from just before

Androgel until last month.

The first month or so the results were as reported by many others -

increased sense of well being, more stamina, somewhat improved

erectile function.

What remains after a year is the sense of well being. Depressive

tendencies gone or supressed. More alert, and " sluggishness/mental

fog " show up rather infrequently. Erectile function however is just

as bad as before and ejaculatory problems persist. Libido has not

improved, sometimes it is there in force but with the ED and Ejac

problems, who really cares. Even with Viagra, Cialis, Levitra the

results are less than stellar.

Started with one bag of 25 mg, upped to 2 x 25 after a month.

Increased to 2 x 50 after 4 months and have stayed there, since T

values are well in range, which they were not at the lower dose. Have

done twice a day and felt OK, but is now applying one dose of 10 mg

in the morning.

Still looking for the magic bullet. Androgel it is not, but maybe a

mix with something else - but what. Have done Tongkat Ali, Maca,

Progesterone, high Zinc intake, low Zinc intake, Dostinex and L-

Carnitine as well as L-Arginine.

Date_________T____E2____SHBG__PRL__DHEAS__PSA

14-09-2005__182___N/A___N/A__N/A___N/A___7,38

29-09-2005__280___N/A___21___9,0__167,2__6,38

31-10-2005__386__13,90__29___9,0__129,2__5,43

06-12-2005__501__24,00__17__12,0__178,6__5,12

06-02-2006__406__22,00__20__12,0__171,0__4,93

06-04-2006__492__24,75__17___8,0__186,2__5,39

25-09-2006__697__19,04__17___3,0__155,8__6,89

Just sharing. All comments appreciated.

---------------------------------

Sponsored Link

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[Guest guest]

No you don't want Nebido a lot of guys on it in the UK and don't like it try the

Testogel aka Andorgle.

Phil

teedeebeey <no_reply > wrote:

Thank you Arkansas for your input. My Urologist suggested shots to

begin with (Nebido - one shot every 3 mos), but I declined due to

unease over PSA values. Wanted to control my T input while I

monitored the PSA. But I guess now that I know my PSA will not

skyrocket shots could be tried. Have anyone here experience from

Nebido ?

> I have been on androgel for about 13 months and have a

mixed bag of

> results to report for anyone interested. My experience is my own,

and

> as we know (I guess) T is not the only factor in the equation. At

the

> end of this post you can see my various testresults from just

before

> Androgel until last month.

>

> The first month or so the results were as reported by many others -

> increased sense of well being, more stamina, somewhat improved

> erectile function.

>

> What remains after a year is the sense of well being. Depressive

> tendencies gone or supressed. More alert, and " sluggishness/mental

> fog " show up rather infrequently. Erectile function however is just

> as bad as before and ejaculatory problems persist. Libido has not

> improved, sometimes it is there in force but with the ED and Ejac

> problems, who really cares. Even with Viagra, Cialis, Levitra the

> results are less than stellar.

>

> Started with one bag of 25 mg, upped to 2 x 25 after a month.

> Increased to 2 x 50 after 4 months and have stayed there, since T

> values are well in range, which they were not at the lower dose.

Have

> done twice a day and felt OK, but is now applying one dose of 10 mg

> in the morning.

>

> Still looking for the magic bullet. Androgel it is not, but maybe a

> mix with something else - but what. Have done Tongkat Ali, Maca,

> Progesterone, high Zinc intake, low Zinc intake, Dostinex and L-

> Carnitine as well as L-Arginine.

>

> Date_________T____E2____SHBG__PRL__DHEAS__PSA

>

> 14-09-2005__182___N/A___N/A__N/A___N/A___7,38

> 29-09-2005__280___N/A___21___9,0__167,2__6,38

> 31-10-2005__386__13,90__29___9,0__129,2__5,43

> 06-12-2005__501__24,00__17__12,0__178,6__5,12

> 06-02-2006__406__22,00__20__12,0__171,0__4,93

> 06-04-2006__492__24,75__17___8,0__186,2__5,39

> 25-09-2006__697__19,04__17___3,0__155,8__6,89

>

> Just sharing. All comments appreciated.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Sponsored Link

>

> Get an Online or Campus degree - Associate's, Bachelor's, or

Master's -in less than one year.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Tom; do you find that you have erections after you have gone to sleep?

I'm having a 'formulating pharmacy' make up a .75% cream which I apply

one G daily and find that I have an erection much of the time I'm

asleep that wilts whenever I awaken.

I also find that unlike when I was young, I need to find something that

is erotically stimulating before I gain an erection--might that be your

problem?

cheers;

[Guest guest]

Thank you Bill. I am taking Gingko; at present 1-2 per day. Was on 2-

3 for awhile, but it thinned my blood a bit too much. When I cut

myself while shaving it just would not stop. But with 1-2 per day it

seems to be OK. No noticeable effect on my libido or ED though.

>

> > I have been on androgel for about 13 months and have a mixed bag

of

> > results to report for anyone interested. My experience is my

own, and

> > as we know (I guess) T is not the only factor in the equation.

At the

> > end of this post you can see my various testresults from just

before

> > Androgel until last month.

> >

> > The first month or so the results were as reported by many

others -

> > increased sense of well being, more stamina, somewhat improved

> > erectile function.

> >

> > What remains after a year is the sense of well being. Depressive

> > tendencies gone or supressed. More alert,

and " sluggishness/mental

> > fog " show up rather infrequently. Erectile function however is

just

> > as bad as before and ejaculatory problems persist. Libido has not

> > improved, sometimes it is there in force but with the ED and Ejac

> > problems, who really cares. Even with Viagra, Cialis, Levitra the

> > results are less than stellar.

> >

> > Started with one bag of 25 mg, upped to 2 x 25 after a month.

> > Increased to 2 x 50 after 4 months and have stayed there, since T

> > values are well in range, which they were not at the lower dose.

Have

> > done twice a day and felt OK, but is now applying one dose of 10

mg

> > in the morning.

> >

> > Still looking for the magic bullet. Androgel it is not, but

maybe a

> > mix with something else - but what. Have done Tongkat Ali, Maca,

> > Progesterone, high Zinc intake, low Zinc intake, Dostinex and L-

> > Carnitine as well as L-Arginine.

> >

> > Date_________T____E2____SHBG__PRL__DHEAS__PSA

> >

> > 14-09-2005__182___N/A___N/A__N/A___N/A___7,38

> > 29-09-2005__280___N/A___21___9,0__167,2__6,38

> > 31-10-2005__386__13,90__29___9,0__129,2__5,43

> > 06-12-2005__501__24,00__17__12,0__178,6__5,12

> > 06-02-2006__406__22,00__20__12,0__171,0__4,93

> > 06-04-2006__492__24,75__17___8,0__186,2__5,39

> > 25-09-2006__697__19,04__17___3,0__155,8__6,89

> >

> > Just sharing. All comments appreciated.

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I take 80-90 mg shot of testosterone cypionate every 7 days. This puts my peak T

~ 1200-11300 and my end day ~ 500-600. I really do not get a peak and valley

feeling. I am considering HCG also.

Arkansas

teedeebeey <no_reply > wrote:

Dan - Forgot to ask you a further question. What shots do you take,

and does not the serum T level vary a lot between the first days

after the shot the the last days before the next shot ? Do you

supplement with gel at the end of the shotcycle or does the shot

really give you a sufficient level the whole time ?

Tomas

> I have been on androgel for about 13 months and have a

mixed bag of

> results to report for anyone interested. My experience is my own,

and

> as we know (I guess) T is not the only factor in the equation. At

the

> end of this post you can see my various testresults from just

before

> Androgel until last month.

>

> The first month or so the results were as reported by many others -

> increased sense of well being, more stamina, somewhat improved

> erectile function.

>

> What remains after a year is the sense of well being. Depressive

> tendencies gone or supressed. More alert, and " sluggishness/mental

> fog " show up rather infrequently. Erectile function however is just

> as bad as before and ejaculatory problems persist. Libido has not

> improved, sometimes it is there in force but with the ED and Ejac

> problems, who really cares. Even with Viagra, Cialis, Levitra the

> results are less than stellar.

>

> Started with one bag of 25 mg, upped to 2 x 25 after a month.

> Increased to 2 x 50 after 4 months and have stayed there, since T

> values are well in range, which they were not at the lower dose.

Have

> done twice a day and felt OK, but is now applying one dose of 10 mg

> in the morning.

>

> Still looking for the magic bullet. Androgel it is not, but maybe a

> mix with something else - but what. Have done Tongkat Ali, Maca,

> Progesterone, high Zinc intake, low Zinc intake, Dostinex and L-

> Carnitine as well as L-Arginine.

>

> Date_________T____E2____SHBG__PRL__DHEAS__PSA

>

> 14-09-2005__182___N/A___N/A__N/A___N/A___7,38

> 29-09-2005__280___N/A___21___9,0__167,2__6,38

> 31-10-2005__386__13,90__29___9,0__129,2__5,43

> 06-12-2005__501__24,00__17__12,0__178,6__5,12

> 06-02-2006__406__22,00__20__12,0__171,0__4,93

> 06-04-2006__492__24,75__17___8,0__186,2__5,39

> 25-09-2006__697__19,04__17___3,0__155,8__6,89

>

> Just sharing. All comments appreciated.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Sponsored Link

>

> Get an Online or Campus degree - Associate's, Bachelor's, or

Master's -in less than one year.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi there is a reasion for this when one is doing gels the area that the

gel goes on is very big so one on this gets a lot of conversion into Estradiol

and DHT. Doing Creams your putting the cream on a smaller area and this is

keeping your Estradiol lower. Still have it checked if on the high side over 35

pg/ml getting it down you will have to wait for it to go down when you get up so

you can Pee.

Phil

<mikedalerogers@...> wrote:

Tom; do you find that you have erections after you have gone to sleep?

I'm having a 'formulating pharmacy' make up a .75% cream which I apply

one G daily and find that I have an erection much of the time I'm

asleep that wilts whenever I awaken.

I also find that unlike when I was young, I need to find something that

is erotically stimulating before I gain an erection--might that be your

problem?

cheers;

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Phil--that confuses me. I find that I have to spread the cream over my

stomach and sides with a bit left over on my arms. If that's a smaller

area, how much jell do you need to use?

Is the estradiol the reason that we get Gyno?

cheers

> Hi there is a reasion for this when one is doing gels the

area that the gel goes on is very big so one on this gets a lot of

conversion into Estradiol and DHT. Doing Creams your putting the cream

on a smaller area and this is keeping your Estradiol lower. Still have

it checked if on the high side over 35 pg/ml getting it down you will

have to wait for it to go down when you get up so you can Pee.

> Phil

>

>>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wow with conpounds you don't do more area you get it mixed stronger. I was

putting on 10mgs. to each fore arm of a total of 20mgs. The bottle said 50mgs

DHEA/150 testosterone. This is about 2x's stronger the 10 grams of Androgel. I

got it for this link.

http://www.collegepharmacy.com/menshealth/andropause.asp

Phil

<mikedalerogers@...> wrote:

Phil--that confuses me. I find that I have to spread the cream over my

stomach and sides with a bit left over on my arms. If that's a smaller

area, how much jell do you need to use?

Is the estradiol the reason that we get Gyno?

cheers

> Hi there is a reasion for this when one is doing gels the

area that the gel goes on is very big so one on this gets a lot of

conversion into Estradiol and DHT. Doing Creams your putting the cream

on a smaller area and this is keeping your Estradiol lower. Still have

it checked if on the high side over 35 pg/ml getting it down you will

have to wait for it to go down when you get up so you can Pee.

> Phil

>

>>

>

>

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