Re: Trying Testosterone Cypionate (E2 Solution?)

July 1, 2007

Thanks for the reply. I am (honest) not finding fault with anyone.

Hell I only admit I don't know. Maybe Dim and Arimidex ARE the answer

and in a few years who knows? Maybe there will be a combo tablet with

both that is mainstream treatment for men with Hypogonadism. I guess

I'll just have to wait.

Yes, gynocomastia and other feminization issues concern me greatly.

My MD started doing " breast " exams which is a first for me. I suppose

part of it is that there is more to exam but of course the main reason

is being on HRT.

The biggest problem is that I was just not feeling the usual benifit

from Androgel. I thought maybe I wasn't getting enough but it seems

that my E2 is clogging up all my receptors. Well in another 2 weeks I

get my first labs whilst using only injectables and if my E2 is still

high I'm off to see the Endo...

>

> >Again let me say that I say this and do NOT intend and offense. Nor,

> >am I trying to tell others how to deal with their health problems.

> >For what its worth this is my logic.

> >

> >A couple of problems I have with herbals (like Dim) In the USA the

> >regulation and control of this stuff is nearly zero. So, a guy might

> >expect his pills or tablets to have variable amount of the herb he is

> >taking. And no matter what the herb does its not often studied well

> >enough to pass my sniff test for safety. I can think of some male

> >impotence " herbs " that are fair at causing erection but GREAT at

> >raising blood pressure to insane levels. And interaction with other

> >drugs or health issues? Who knows. And this DIM is not for me.

> >

> >*If I lived in Europe " herbals " are made and checked like any other

> >drug and this would not be an issue.

> >

> >My second problem is that companies that sell this can't claim

> >anything and thus you often get what you paid for. I've heard several

> >times that DIM use doesn't decrease lab values of E2 and if it

> >doesn't? What would be the point assuming I ignored my primary

issue.

> >

> >And last my Doctor will grudgingly let me take " some " things as long

> >as she knows what they are and has a good idea of what its really does

> >and what its supposed to be. A placebo? I dunno. DIM is not on her

> >list.

>

> I understand your conservative nature, and in may ways I respect it. I

> have personal issues with the way some in the group will try four or

> five things at once, and follow what ever " new " theory comes in.

>

> That said, you will need, in my humble opinion of course, to keep an

> eye on your E2 and manage your T therapy to keep it in check. There's

> no doubt at all in those who've dealt with it here, that once E2 pass

> 40, it's robbing you of a significant portion of the benefit of your

> TRT. E2 out competes T in many receptor sites.

>

> Most of the old school docs will be reluctant to prescribe arimidex,

> but only too happy to do repeated gynecomastia removals.

>

July 1, 2007

Mr is (at best) an idiot. At worst a really vile creature. I

have understood the whole " Cheap prescription " thing as being " Since

you will pay for everything in cash we will make you a better

discount " If I had to live overseas and pay for Androgel for example?

It just would not happen. Also the Lipitor and Zetia. INSANE!

So, when people ask me I say the US system is the biggest mess in the

world except for all the other systems.

Its rather insane... And I feel really bad for the state of your

medical art.

>

> > *If I lived in Europe " herbals " are made and checked like any other

> > drug and this would not be an issue.

>

> In EU there isn't DIM. In our forum you see they purchase herbals in US

> via internet. The " checking " of herbals by our state isn't a dependable

> measure. No one believes in it here.

>

> What's more if you lived here you could not find a doc knowing what TRT

> is. I had LH at 1 , S-T 300 e F-T 14 with ED and depression and

> everyone told me to go to a shrink. I insisted and obliged my family

> doctor /general physician to do a MRI scan, discovering I have a

> pituitary tumor. I know even in US many endos know nothing but at least

> you find doctors specialized in TRT. Here there aren't.

> BTW, to have a free " State sponsored " MRI scan you had to wait 100 days.

> To be scanned immediately 400 euro (537 USD).

>

> Eventually, here in the heaven of free medical care, nobody signs a

> private health insurance. Then you discover that your statal system

> doesn't give rat's ass about the fact you are without testosterone.

> They pay you the surgical removal of the tumor (with a surgeon of THEIR

> choice, easily one who is learning, meanwhile rich people goes to

> private ones, paying everything) but State doesn't give you anything

> for hormonal replacement, neither injections or gels. Nothing. The same

> goes for anti-ED drugs. You've to pay them. Period.

> BTW, even for other illness rich european guys use private clinics.

> Really reach people goes in US. Agnelli (Fiat and Ferrari owners) went

> at the sHopkins in the US.

>

> In spite of all this our governments will support the airing of 's

> last movie, Sicko, assuring that everyone could see how evil the

> American way of life is and how we have to thanks our wise burocrats

> (soon we'll be compelled to thank them shouting Allah akbar from the

> free hospital room where 10 patients are crammed without air

> conditioning).

>

July 1, 2007

You misunderstand my comment. Its not that my Doctor says it doesn't

work. What she says is this...

Arimidex is not intended for use in men. The makers say so. This

raises a red flag.

If its not been tested for men = its not safe for men...

I looked at the insert and it clearly indicates its not intended for

men. And while you are having good luck with it I don't want to

pioneer a drug.

>

> If your doctor says that Arimidex does not lower E2 then you need

> another doctor. I use it & it works. I have not noticed any side

> effects.

July 1, 2007

Someone else said that Armindex was not good for folks with heart

issues. I suspect the two are intertwined? And my good HDL is

already low so another good reason for my MD to say " nope "

Clomid was brought up once. She said this...

Clomid is not tested for long term use. There are studies that

suggest long runs of Clomid can damage the gland that signals hormone

production. (It atrophies? she wasn't clear) When another doctor

suggested it I repeated what she said saying " She told me it might fry

my brain if I used it for more then say 6 months " This guy AGREED!

And then had the nerve to ask me if I wanted it anyway?

NONE FOR ME THANKS!

> >

> > Again let me say that I say this and do NOT intend and offense. Nor,

> > am I trying to tell others how to deal with their health problems.

> > For what its worth this is my logic.

> >

> > A couple of problems I have with herbals (like Dim) In the USA the

> > regulation and control of this stuff is nearly zero. So, a guy

> might

> > expect his pills or tablets to have variable amount of the herb he

> is

> > taking. And no matter what the herb does its not often studied well

> > enough to pass my sniff test for safety. I can think of some male

> > impotence " herbs " that are fair at causing erection but GREAT at

> > raising blood pressure to insane levels. And interaction with other

> > drugs or health issues? Who knows. And this DIM is not for me.

> >

> > *If I lived in Europe " herbals " are made and checked like any other

> > drug and this would not be an issue.

> >

> > My second problem is that companies that sell this can't claim

> > anything and thus you often get what you paid for. I've heard

> several

> > times that DIM use doesn't decrease lab values of E2 and if it

> > doesn't? What would be the point assuming I ignored my primary

> issue.

> >

> > And last my Doctor will grudgingly let me take " some " things as long

> > as she knows what they are and has a good idea of what its really

> does

> > and what its supposed to be. A placebo? I dunno. DIM is not on

> her

> > list.

> >

>

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> 11:54 PM

>

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>

July 1, 2007

Thanks.

I tried the first reference it was dead.

The second reference was a pure " chemistry " discription and had

nothing that I could see about lowering e2? Or? I may have missed it.

The last reference was about cancer treatment.

Again, I'm not trying to be a pill but where is the study that shows

it lowers E2 (Preferably in men with Hypogonadism) and by how much?

>

> >> And last my Doctor will grudgingly let me take " some " things as long

> >> as she knows what they are and has a good idea of what its really

> >does

> >> and what its supposed to be. A placebo? I dunno. DIM is not on

> >her

> >> list.

>

> There's actually a lot of studies on DIM in pubmed, etc.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3%2C3%27-Diindolylmethane

>

July 1, 2007

On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 19:38:58 -0000, you wrote:

>

>Mr is (at best) an idiot. At worst a really vile creature. I

>have understood the whole " Cheap prescription " thing as being " Since

>you will pay for everything in cash we will make you a better

>discount " If I had to live overseas and pay for Androgel for example?

> It just would not happen. Also the Lipitor and Zetia. INSANE!

>

>So, when people ask me I say the US system is the biggest mess in the

>world except for all the other systems.

Except of course that most of western Europe and developed Asia

deliver better longevity, infant mortality and over all health for 1/2

to 1/3 of what Americans pay per capita - and they do it while

insuring everyone. We pay twice as much per capita and still leave 43

million uninsured.

Our " system " is in collapse. Anyone actively in it will tell you that.

>Its rather insane... And I feel really bad for the state of your

>medical art.

July 1, 2007

On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 19:45:17 -0000, you wrote:

>Someone else said that Armindex was not good for folks with heart

>issues.

The issue seems largely unimportant I suspect.

" Slightly more women on anastrozole developed heart problems, compared

to those on tamoxifen — 2.5% compared to 1.9%. "

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/content/NWS_1_1x_Anastrozole_Shown_Slightly_Be\

tter_Than_Tamoxifen.asp

And this is in women on doses associated with breast cancer treatment.

July 2, 2007

There are many med that are used off intended use. That does not

make them dangerous.

Males take Arimidex in low dose, 1/2 tablet 2 or 3 times a week.

Women take much higher doses. 1 tablet each day.

My doctor uses Arimidex. He does 1/2 tablet twice a week.

My E2 lowered from the 80s to the teens.

> >

> > If your doctor says that Arimidex does not lower E2 then you need

> > another doctor. I use it & it works. I have not noticed any

side

> > effects.

>

July 2, 2007

Yeah, they don't make much money writing a script versus doing a

surgery.

--- retrogrouch@... wrote:

>

> I understand your conservative nature, and in may ways I respect it.

> I

> have personal issues with the way some in the group will try four or

> five things at once, and follow what ever " new " theory comes in.

>

> That said, you will need, in my humble opinion of course, to keep an

> eye on your E2 and manage your T therapy to keep it in check.

> There's

> no doubt at all in those who've dealt with it here, that once E2 pass

> 40, it's robbing you of a significant portion of the benefit of your

> TRT. E2 out competes T in many receptor sites.

>

> Most of the old school docs will be reluctant to prescribe arimidex,

> but only too happy to do repeated gynecomastia removals.

>

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July 2, 2007

This is all part of the conspiracy to emasculate men.

If you have more estrogen, some will say you will be less likely to beat and

kill your wife. Of course you and drink all you want, take other

prescription drugs and beat your wife but anything that improves

testosterone is bad.

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of gin2c

Sent: July 02, 2007 5:38 AM

Subject: Re: Trying Testosterone Cypionate (E2 Solution?)

There are many med that are used off intended use. That does not

make them dangerous.

Males take Arimidex in low dose, 1/2 tablet 2 or 3 times a week.

Women take much higher doses. 1 tablet each day.

My doctor uses Arimidex. He does 1/2 tablet twice a week.

My E2 lowered from the 80s to the teens.

> >

> > If your doctor says that Arimidex does not lower E2 then you need

> > another doctor. I use it & it works. I have not noticed any

side

> > effects.

>

July 2, 2007

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 11:37:52 -0000, you wrote:

>There are many med that are used off intended use. That does not

>make them dangerous.

>

>Males take Arimidex in low dose, 1/2 tablet 2 or 3 times a week.

>Women take much higher doses. 1 tablet each day.

I get by these days after some weight loss with a quarter tablet about

twice a week.

>

>My doctor uses Arimidex. He does 1/2 tablet twice a week.

>

>My E2 lowered from the 80s to the teens.

For me the teens is too low and led to loss of labido and mild ED - at

8 things were dead. I shoot for 25 to 35 personally.

July 3, 2007

gels and patches never worked for me. I inject T cyp and use a 10% cream

occasionally. good luck

james186282 <pillow@...> wrote: Thanks for the reply. I am

(honest) not finding fault with anyone.