Re: Trying Testosterone Cypionate (E2 Solution?)

[Guest guest]

Every two weeks is not frequent enough. Very unnatural. A good

pituitary stimulates production several times a day. I'm seeing more

and more men feeld best doing injections every 2-3 days. That is, take

the weekly dose and convert to an every 2 or every 3 day dose.

You are going to feel a roller coaster that is not fun. You'll feel

great around days 3 and 4, then by days 10-14 you'll be miserable. I'm

quite sure of it.

Why is your doctor afraid of dealing with E2 if it shows up? Instead

of getting rid of DHEA, manage the E2.

You're having some luck with this doctor, I suppose, but she clearly

does not know what she's doing. See if you can get her to consult for

free with Dr. Crisler (www.allthingsmale.com). He'll set her

straight.

Chris

--- james186282 <pillow@...> wrote:

> Hi everyone. My Doctor has switched me from Androgel. I'm starting

> off at an injection of 100 mg? (1/2 ml of the 200 per ml stuff - I

> think) every two weeks of Testosterone Cypionate.

>

> She plans for me to have my labs done at the end of the two weeks

> just

> before the 3rd injection. We had to do some head scratching to

> figure

> out when the proper time to have the blood drawn for testing

> Androgel.

> I wonder what is the typical scheme for testing T/C and what kind of

> levels should I expect?

>

> Also I'm curious how many of you are doing it bi weekly and if this

> works for you ok? *And while I suspect this dose is on the low end

> to

> start me off I wonder what you other guys are doing dose wise?

>

> We did away with the Oral DHEA. We found a medical report that said

> oral DHEA strongly rises male E2 (Which I had a problem with) For now

> I'm going without but I would like to know if anyone has a line on a

> transdermal DHEA that is real DHEA and not Yams or other rubbish.

> The

> same report said this rises DHEA without spiking male E2.

>

> Thanks -

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Building a website is a piece of cake. Small Business gives you all the

tools to get online.

http://smallbusiness./webhosting

[Guest guest]

I used Testim and Androgel at the start. Patches and gels were completely

ineffective as if I was doing nothing. I'm taking testosterone cypionate

injectable, 2ml monthly. I also have a specially compounded testosterone cream

from my pharmacist. It's a 10% cream where the patches and gels were 2.5% and

5%. The cream is a specially compounded bio-identical cream and I use it daily

to take the edge off of occasional headaches from treatment. It's pretty good

and yes, it's derived from Mexican yams so I wouldn't call it rubbish.

I tried your schedule, taking half as much twice as often and didn't find it

too practical. It's not a bad regimine, just not practical for me. I hope it

works well for you but as a consideration, you can also take 2ml monthly.

There are other patients here that have been critical of my therapy but that's

fine. They may be well read and experienced patients but patients nonetheless,

not doctors. Advice from patients must be taken with a grain of salt regardless

of what recent periodical they've read or what web site they've visited.

In fact, for starters, I wish I had begun on your schedule, then transition to

2ml monthly. For me, I had to get adjusted to injections. After 2 weeks

withdrawal symptoms would return and for a while I thought the cure was worse

than the illness. It was so bad for one guy at this clinic I was attending that

one day he marched through the front door, went to the nurses station and

demanded an injection. When he didn't receive one he began to throw objects at

the staff and had to be escorted out of the building.

So for some, getting adjusted to the injections can be a challenge. And as

well as for some here, injection therapy isn't perfect but it's close. Sometimes

I used to get these peculiar headaches about the same time, about a week and a

half from an injection. I haven't had my monthly headaches yet and its been a

week since my last shot. They last for two, maybe three days then all is back to

normal. I've been using the cream daily this month and haven't had my usual

complications, yet.

Most doctors I've come across are generally very conservative towards their

approach in treatment. My doctor is giving me as little drug as possible yet

restoring full cognitive and gonadal function. That's the key and it's very

important to stay on track with that in mind. Other patients may offer

suggestions that you require some exotic variety of medicines taken every other

day, this and that. I'd stay on track with a conservative approach, taking as

little as needed to relieve symptoms and get the family jewel to work just fine.

As far as gonadal function goes, some days you'll be flat, some days you'll

spike like a teenager so I wouldn't worry about that unless you have no wood at

all. The T I use is of a tremendous help and gives me a boost, more dynamic.

So good luck with your therapy. I hope this approach puts you on the right

track.

james186282 <pillow@...> wrote:

Hi everyone. My Doctor has switched me from Androgel. I'm starting

off at an injection of 100 mg? (1/2 ml of the 200 per ml stuff - I

think) every two weeks of Testosterone Cypionate.

She plans for me to have my labs done at the end of the two weeks just

before the 3rd injection. We had to do some head scratching to figure

out when the proper time to have the blood drawn for testing Androgel.

I wonder what is the typical scheme for testing T/C and what kind of

levels should I expect?

Also I'm curious how many of you are doing it bi weekly and if this

works for you ok? *And while I suspect this dose is on the low end to

start me off I wonder what you other guys are doing dose wise?

We did away with the Oral DHEA. We found a medical report that said

oral DHEA strongly rises male E2 (Which I had a problem with) For now

I'm going without but I would like to know if anyone has a line on a

transdermal DHEA that is real DHEA and not Yams or other rubbish. The

same report said this rises DHEA without spiking male E2.

Thanks -

---------------------------------

The fish are biting.

Get more visitors on your site using Search Marketing.

[Guest guest]

I talked to Dr Crislers office assistant. He does NOT do free

consultations. *Not that I expect him to. While much of what he says

makes sense to me I've found that my local Docs don't agree and seem

to have good reason. One example. Using Clomid for long periods.

From what I read he has no problem with it. *I might be wrong? Out

of three Doctors (One who is a Prof who teaches Urology at the state

Univ) they all said the same thing. Clomid should not be used in men

for more then 6 months. Its not been tested for long periods of use

and there are serious indications that using it for long periods can

damage the part of the brain that signals hormone production.

Anyway I discussed this consultation with my MD. She opted out saying

that she would be much happier if I consulted with a local expert that

was someone she knew. That some voice on the phone could be any " nut "

from the internet. So... I am refered to the local University

teaching hospital.

Look, I know this will probably not make me any friends but I've

looked all over the web for information on using Arimidex in men with

high E2. If there are any group studies of this? I can't find them.

If I'm wrong PLEASE steer me right. I would love to pop a tablet and

fix this problem. If not? well.... Off label use of a drug is not

the best science (My opinion) I guess what I'm saying is that

pioneering a new drug is like doing the high wire act without a net.

I suspect the guy she would send me to would be saying pretty much

what she is. If going off DHEA and using injectables doesn't solve my

problem I'll probably give that endo at the U a try.

>

> > Hi everyone. My Doctor has switched me from Androgel. I'm starting

> > off at an injection of 100 mg? (1/2 ml of the 200 per ml stuff - I

> > think) every two weeks of Testosterone Cypionate.

> >

> > She plans for me to have my labs done at the end of the two weeks

> > just

> > before the 3rd injection. We had to do some head scratching to

> > figure

> > out when the proper time to have the blood drawn for testing

> > Androgel.

> > I wonder what is the typical scheme for testing T/C and what kind of

> > levels should I expect?

> >

> > Also I'm curious how many of you are doing it bi weekly and if this

> > works for you ok? *And while I suspect this dose is on the low end

> > to

> > start me off I wonder what you other guys are doing dose wise?

> >

> > We did away with the Oral DHEA. We found a medical report that said

> > oral DHEA strongly rises male E2 (Which I had a problem with) For now

> > I'm going without but I would like to know if anyone has a line on a

> > transdermal DHEA that is real DHEA and not Yams or other rubbish.

> > The

> > same report said this rises DHEA without spiking male E2.

> >

> > Thanks -

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

> Building a website is a piece of cake. Small Business gives

you all the tools to get online.

> http://smallbusiness./webhosting

>

[Guest guest]

Go to anabolicminds.com and check at the Male Anti-aging Forum. You

can read about men using aromatase inhibitors there.

You can also read about it in the literature at Dr. Crisler's website.

Chris

--- james186282 <pillow@...> wrote:

> I talked to Dr Crislers office assistant. He does NOT do free

> consultations. *Not that I expect him to. While much of what he

> says

> makes sense to me I've found that my local Docs don't agree and seem

> to have good reason. One example. Using Clomid for long periods.

> From what I read he has no problem with it. *I might be wrong? Out

> of three Doctors (One who is a Prof who teaches Urology at the state

> Univ) they all said the same thing. Clomid should not be used in men

> for more then 6 months. Its not been tested for long periods of use

> and there are serious indications that using it for long periods can

> damage the part of the brain that signals hormone production.

>

> Anyway I discussed this consultation with my MD. She opted out

> saying

> that she would be much happier if I consulted with a local expert

> that

> was someone she knew. That some voice on the phone could be any

> " nut "

> from the internet. So... I am refered to the local University

> teaching hospital.

>

> Look, I know this will probably not make me any friends but I've

> looked all over the web for information on using Arimidex in men with

> high E2. If there are any group studies of this? I can't find them.

>

> If I'm wrong PLEASE steer me right. I would love to pop a tablet and

> fix this problem. If not? well.... Off label use of a drug is not

> the best science (My opinion) I guess what I'm saying is that

> pioneering a new drug is like doing the high wire act without a net.

>

> I suspect the guy she would send me to would be saying pretty much

> what she is. If going off DHEA and using injectables doesn't solve

> my

> problem I'll probably give that endo at the U a try.

>

>

> >

> > > Hi everyone. My Doctor has switched me from Androgel. I'm

> starting

> > > off at an injection of 100 mg? (1/2 ml of the 200 per ml stuff -

> I

> > > think) every two weeks of Testosterone Cypionate.

> > >

> > > She plans for me to have my labs done at the end of the two weeks

> > > just

> > > before the 3rd injection. We had to do some head scratching to

> > > figure

> > > out when the proper time to have the blood drawn for testing

> > > Androgel.

> > > I wonder what is the typical scheme for testing T/C and what

> kind of

> > > levels should I expect?

> > >

> > > Also I'm curious how many of you are doing it bi weekly and if

> this

> > > works for you ok? *And while I suspect this dose is on the low

> end

> > > to

> > > start me off I wonder what you other guys are doing dose wise?

> > >

> > > We did away with the Oral DHEA. We found a medical report that

> said

> > > oral DHEA strongly rises male E2 (Which I had a problem with) For

> now

> > > I'm going without but I would like to know if anyone has a line

> on a

> > > transdermal DHEA that is real DHEA and not Yams or other rubbish.

>

> > > The

> > > same report said this rises DHEA without spiking male E2.

> > >

> > > Thanks -

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

> > Building a website is a piece of cake. Small Business gives

> you all the tools to get online.

> > http://smallbusiness./webhosting

> >

>

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Bored stiff? Loosen up...

Download and play hundreds of games for free on Games.

http://games./games/front

[Guest guest]

Ok, please don't offense but I've done that and its not what I'm

looking for. What I would like to see is a group study on using

Armidex in men with high E2. There have been a few very tiny tests

but nothing like a clinical trial. I am not willing to be a pioneer

for Armidex.

> > >

> > > > Hi everyone. My Doctor has switched me from Androgel. I'm

> > starting

> > > > off at an injection of 100 mg? (1/2 ml of the 200 per ml stuff -

> > I

> > > > think) every two weeks of Testosterone Cypionate.

> > > >

> > > > She plans for me to have my labs done at the end of the two weeks

> > > > just

> > > > before the 3rd injection. We had to do some head scratching to

> > > > figure

> > > > out when the proper time to have the blood drawn for testing

> > > > Androgel.

> > > > I wonder what is the typical scheme for testing T/C and what

> > kind of

> > > > levels should I expect?

> > > >

> > > > Also I'm curious how many of you are doing it bi weekly and if

> > this

> > > > works for you ok? *And while I suspect this dose is on the low

> > end

> > > > to

> > > > start me off I wonder what you other guys are doing dose wise?

> > > >

> > > > We did away with the Oral DHEA. We found a medical report that

> > said

> > > > oral DHEA strongly rises male E2 (Which I had a problem with) For

> > now

> > > > I'm going without but I would like to know if anyone has a line

> > on a

> > > > transdermal DHEA that is real DHEA and not Yams or other rubbish.

> >

> > > > The

> > > > same report said this rises DHEA without spiking male E2.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks -

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

> > > Building a website is a piece of cake. Small Business gives

> > you all the tools to get online.

> > > http://smallbusiness./webhosting

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

> Bored stiff? Loosen up...

> Download and play hundreds of games for free on Games.

> http://games./games/front

>

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 06:26:25 -0000, you wrote:

>Ok, please don't offense but I've done that and its not what I'm

>looking for. What I would like to see is a group study on using

>Armidex in men with high E2. There have been a few very tiny tests

>but nothing like a clinical trial. I am not willing to be a pioneer

>for Armidex.

That's your right. There are however a few 100 of us on this group who

have found it essential to feeling well on TRT. (And who have read the

available science - something few of the doctors seem to have done.)

[Guest guest]

there are a lot of men on arimidex I asked my Drugest to do a search on

how much is sold off lable to men he told me more to men then women.

But you don't need to do arimidx to get E2 down just get some Indolplex/DIM

it's OTC and works.

http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html

If you try this only take one tablet at dinner time get back to me if your

going to try this and I can tell you how not to go to low on the E2.

============================================================

How DIM Works

The dietary use of micronutrients found in plants, which are also known as

phytochemicals, encompasses what we now know as Phytonutrition. The

phytochemical DIM (diindolylmethane) that naturally occurs in broccoli,

cauliflower, cabbage, and Brussels sprouts has been shown to increase the

regulation of hormone metabolism. The plant indoles in these cruciferous

vegetables promote health and scientists have discovered that adding these

plants to the diets of animals could prevent certain forms of cancer. DIM is

more biologically active than other indoles found in the cruciferous vegetable

family.

Supplementing with Dim can help overcome the need to eat 3 pounds of broccoli

per day and can effectively shift the balance of sex hormones. “An optimal

estrogen balance has implications for cancer prevention and successful aging in

both women and men,” according to Dr. Zeligs, M.D., co-author of the

“All About DIM” book.

DIM can help increase the specific aerobic metabolism for estrogen,

multiplying the chance for estrogen to be broken down into its beneficial or

" good " estrogen metabolites. Many of the benefits that are attributed to

estrogen, which includes its ability to protect the heart and brain with its

antioxidant activity, are now known to come from these " good " metabolites.

A slow metabolism of estrogen can result in too much active estrogen known as

estradiol in the body; this can be problematic for both sexes. In women,

elevated estradiol levels have been shown to cause weight gain (waist, thighs,

hips), moodiness, and breast pain. Men tend to suffer from weight gain, loss of

sex drive, prostate enlargement, and male patterned baldness, to name a few.

When supplemental DIM increases the ‘good’ estrogen metabolites that are known

to be antioxidants, there is a simultaneous reduction in the levels of

undesirable or ‘bad’ estrogen metabolites which are not antioxidants and can

actually cause cancer.

Taking DIM not only promotes healthy estrogen metabolism, it can also promote

a more desirable action from testosterone. “Testosterone supports energy and

mood and helps sustain interest in sex for both men and women”, according to Dr.

Zeligs.

james186282 <pillow@...> wrote:

Ok, please don't offense but I've done that and its not what I'm

looking for. What I would like to see is a group study on using

Armidex in men with high E2. There have been a few very tiny tests

but nothing like a clinical trial. I am not willing to be a pioneer

for Armidex.

> > >

> > > > Hi everyone. My Doctor has switched me from Androgel. I'm

> > starting

> > > > off at an injection of 100 mg? (1/2 ml of the 200 per ml stuff -

> > I

> > > > think) every two weeks of Testosterone Cypionate.

> > > >

> > > > She plans for me to have my labs done at the end of the two weeks

> > > > just

> > > > before the 3rd injection. We had to do some head scratching to

> > > > figure

> > > > out when the proper time to have the blood drawn for testing

> > > > Androgel.

> > > > I wonder what is the typical scheme for testing T/C and what

> > kind of

> > > > levels should I expect?

> > > >

> > > > Also I'm curious how many of you are doing it bi weekly and if

> > this

> > > > works for you ok? *And while I suspect this dose is on the low

> > end

> > > > to

> > > > start me off I wonder what you other guys are doing dose wise?

> > > >

> > > > We did away with the Oral DHEA. We found a medical report that

> > said

> > > > oral DHEA strongly rises male E2 (Which I had a problem with) For

> > now

> > > > I'm going without but I would like to know if anyone has a line

> > on a

> > > > transdermal DHEA that is real DHEA and not Yams or other rubbish.

> >

> > > > The

> > > > same report said this rises DHEA without spiking male E2.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks -

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

__________________________________________________________

> > > Building a website is a piece of cake. Small Business gives

> > you all the tools to get online.

> > > http://smallbusiness./webhosting

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________________

> Bored stiff? Loosen up...

> Download and play hundreds of games for free on Games.

> http://games./games/front

>

Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. "

Phil

---------------------------------

Shape in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

[Guest guest]

Then do some searching of your own. Start with highwire.stanford.edu

(for searching many medical journals), pubmed.com and google.com

Chris

--- james186282 <pillow@...> wrote:

> Ok, please don't offense but I've done that and its not what I'm

> looking for. What I would like to see is a group study on using

> Armidex in men with high E2. There have been a few very tiny tests

> but nothing like a clinical trial. I am not willing to be a pioneer

> for Armidex.

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Need a vacation? Get great deals

to amazing places on Travel.

http://travel./

[Guest guest]

I guess I'm more concervative and want to keep my treatment to less

leading edge stuff. Glad its working for you however!

>

> >Ok, please don't offense but I've done that and its not what I'm

> >looking for. What I would like to see is a group study on using

> >Armidex in men with high E2. There have been a few very tiny tests

> >but nothing like a clinical trial. I am not willing to be a pioneer

> >for Armidex.

>

>

> That's your right. There are however a few 100 of us on this group who

> have found it essential to feeling well on TRT. (And who have read the

> available science - something few of the doctors seem to have done.)

>

[Guest guest]

Again let me say that I say this and do NOT intend and offense. Nor,

am I trying to tell others how to deal with their health problems.

For what its worth this is my logic.

A couple of problems I have with herbals (like Dim) In the USA the

regulation and control of this stuff is nearly zero. So, a guy might

expect his pills or tablets to have variable amount of the herb he is

taking. And no matter what the herb does its not often studied well

enough to pass my sniff test for safety. I can think of some male

impotence " herbs " that are fair at causing erection but GREAT at

raising blood pressure to insane levels. And interaction with other

drugs or health issues? Who knows. And this DIM is not for me.

*If I lived in Europe " herbals " are made and checked like any other

drug and this would not be an issue.

My second problem is that companies that sell this can't claim

anything and thus you often get what you paid for. I've heard several

times that DIM use doesn't decrease lab values of E2 and if it

doesn't? What would be the point assuming I ignored my primary issue.

And last my Doctor will grudgingly let me take " some " things as long

as she knows what they are and has a good idea of what its really does

and what its supposed to be. A placebo? I dunno. DIM is not on her

list.

[Guest guest]

Hi thank you for the suggestions. Unfortunatly I've done that before

I saw my Doctor and there is nothing that I can find that promotes

Arimidex as a proper treatment for men with high E2.

In my opinion group studies are screaming to be made. I am not

" against " Armidex in anyway. Other then for myself because I don't

feel its been given a group study for treating men like us.

[Guest guest]

Well in my case I can't use erections to chart the success of my

treatment. I've got drug induced impotence from another problem.

I've got a couple days to go for my second injection. So far? I

guess I'm doing ok. A little more tired then usual and I'm not quite

as interested in sex as usual but... If its different its not 100%

change or anything. More of a subtle shift.

My MD tends to start low and dial up. The labs should tell us where

this is taking me. If I went on my impressions alone I would " guess "

I'm lower then when I was on Androgel.

Anyway thanks for the reply. I feel like the odd duck in how I'm

dealing with my treatment! ;-) But thats ok. I'm glad this forum

lets you express an opinion and not get flamed tooo bad... ;-)

> Hi everyone. My Doctor has switched me from Androgel. I'm

starting

> off at an injection of 100 mg? (1/2 ml of the 200 per ml stuff - I

> think) every two weeks of Testosterone Cypionate.

>

> She plans for me to have my labs done at the end of the two weeks just

> before the 3rd injection. We had to do some head scratching to figure

> out when the proper time to have the blood drawn for testing Androgel.

> I wonder what is the typical scheme for testing T/C and what kind of

> levels should I expect?

>

> Also I'm curious how many of you are doing it bi weekly and if this

> works for you ok? *And while I suspect this dose is on the low end to

> start me off I wonder what you other guys are doing dose wise?

>

> We did away with the Oral DHEA. We found a medical report that said

> oral DHEA strongly rises male E2 (Which I had a problem with) For now

> I'm going without but I would like to know if anyone has a line on a

> transdermal DHEA that is real DHEA and not Yams or other rubbish. The

> same report said this rises DHEA without spiking male E2.

>

> Thanks -

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> The fish are biting.

> Get more visitors on your site using Search Marketing.

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 19:56:21 -0000, you wrote:

>Again let me say that I say this and do NOT intend and offense. Nor,

>am I trying to tell others how to deal with their health problems.

>For what its worth this is my logic.

>

>A couple of problems I have with herbals (like Dim) In the USA the

>regulation and control of this stuff is nearly zero. So, a guy might

>expect his pills or tablets to have variable amount of the herb he is

>taking. And no matter what the herb does its not often studied well

>enough to pass my sniff test for safety. I can think of some male

>impotence " herbs " that are fair at causing erection but GREAT at

>raising blood pressure to insane levels. And interaction with other

>drugs or health issues? Who knows. And this DIM is not for me.

>

>*If I lived in Europe " herbals " are made and checked like any other

>drug and this would not be an issue.

>

>My second problem is that companies that sell this can't claim

>anything and thus you often get what you paid for. I've heard several

>times that DIM use doesn't decrease lab values of E2 and if it

>doesn't? What would be the point assuming I ignored my primary issue.

>

>And last my Doctor will grudgingly let me take " some " things as long

>as she knows what they are and has a good idea of what its really does

>and what its supposed to be. A placebo? I dunno. DIM is not on her

>list.

I understand your conservative nature, and in may ways I respect it. I

have personal issues with the way some in the group will try four or

five things at once, and follow what ever " new " theory comes in.

That said, you will need, in my humble opinion of course, to keep an

eye on your E2 and manage your T therapy to keep it in check. There's

no doubt at all in those who've dealt with it here, that once E2 pass

40, it's robbing you of a significant portion of the benefit of your

TRT. E2 out competes T in many receptor sites.

Most of the old school docs will be reluctant to prescribe arimidex,

but only too happy to do repeated gynecomastia removals.

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 20:07:49 -0000, you wrote:

>Thank you.

>

>You do excellent work! Some of these are new to me. I found most of

>these using Google, and some of the MED papers sources.

>

>An honest question if I may? From my Doctors viewpoint which one

>makes prescribing Armidex to men at all " mainstream? " The closest

>that I've seen is the " Emerging new Drugs " paper but even that doesn't

>suggest it (I think) now.

For me it's this one:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/3/1174?maxtoshow= & HITS=10 & hits=\

10 & RESULTFORMAT=1 & andorexacttitle=and & andorexacttitleabs=and & fulltext=estrogen+m\

ale+muscle+metabolism & andorexactfulltext=and & searchid=1 & FIRSTINDEX=500 & sortspec=\

relevance & resourcetype=HWCIT#R49

[Guest guest]

> *If I lived in Europe " herbals " are made and checked like any other

> drug and this would not be an issue.

In EU there isn't DIM. In our forum you see they purchase herbals in US

via internet. The " checking " of herbals by our state isn't a dependable

measure. No one believes in it here.

What's more if you lived here you could not find a doc knowing what TRT

is. I had LH at 1 , S-T 300 e F-T 14 with ED and depression and

everyone told me to go to a shrink. I insisted and obliged my family

doctor /general physician to do a MRI scan, discovering I have a

pituitary tumor. I know even in US many endos know nothing but at least

you find doctors specialized in TRT. Here there aren't.

BTW, to have a free " State sponsored " MRI scan you had to wait 100 days.

To be scanned immediately 400 euro (537 USD).

Eventually, here in the heaven of free medical care, nobody signs a

private health insurance. Then you discover that your statal system

doesn't give rat's ass about the fact you are without testosterone.

They pay you the surgical removal of the tumor (with a surgeon of THEIR

choice, easily one who is learning, meanwhile rich people goes to

private ones, paying everything) but State doesn't give you anything

for hormonal replacement, neither injections or gels. Nothing. The same

goes for anti-ED drugs. You've to pay them. Period.

BTW, even for other illness rich european guys use private clinics.

Really reach people goes in US. Agnelli (Fiat and Ferrari owners) went

at the sHopkins in the US.

In spite of all this our governments will support the airing of 's

last movie, Sicko, assuring that everyone could see how evil the

American way of life is and how we have to thanks our wise burocrats

(soon we'll be compelled to thank them shouting Allah akbar from the

free hospital room where 10 patients are crammed without air

conditioning).

[Guest guest]

The guys in the UK order it from this link and it takes about 4 weeks to get it

but they get it.

http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html

paoloila <paoloila@...> wrote:

> *If I lived in Europe " herbals " are made and checked like any other

> drug and this would not be an issue.

In EU there isn't DIM. In our forum you see they purchase herbals in US

via internet. The " checking " of herbals by our state isn't a dependable

measure. No one believes in it here.

What's more if you lived here you could not find a doc knowing what TRT

is. I had LH at 1 , S-T 300 e F-T 14 with ED and depression and

everyone told me to go to a shrink. I insisted and obliged my family

doctor /general physician to do a MRI scan, discovering I have a

pituitary tumor. I know even in US many endos know nothing but at least

you find doctors specialized in TRT. Here there aren't.

BTW, to have a free " State sponsored " MRI scan you had to wait 100 days.

To be scanned immediately 400 euro (537 USD).

Eventually, here in the heaven of free medical care, nobody signs a

private health insurance. Then you discover that your statal system

doesn't give rat's ass about the fact you are without testosterone.

They pay you the surgical removal of the tumor (with a surgeon of THEIR

choice, easily one who is learning, meanwhile rich people goes to

private ones, paying everything) but State doesn't give you anything

for hormonal replacement, neither injections or gels. Nothing. The same

goes for anti-ED drugs. You've to pay them. Period.

BTW, even for other illness rich european guys use private clinics.

Really reach people goes in US. Agnelli (Fiat and Ferrari owners) went

at the sHopkins in the US.

In spite of all this our governments will support the airing of 's

last movie, Sicko, assuring that everyone could see how evil the

American way of life is and how we have to thanks our wise burocrats

(soon we'll be compelled to thank them shouting Allah akbar from the

free hospital room where 10 patients are crammed without air

conditioning).

Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. "

Phil

---------------------------------

Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.

Answers - Check it out.

[Guest guest]

Arimidex can have negative effects on heart function. Believe it or not

Tamoxifen is a much better alternative..even the old nolvedex is better for

estrogen control/reduction. I will post this week an article from muscular

development magazine by Tuesday of this week.

**Arimidex may be most effecient but it is NOT the safest.**

Most bodybuilders only use it precontest as its so effective in doses as low as

a tablet 1mg/day. Keep in mind that some of these guys are on up 3GRAMS of

Steriods[tesosterone,nandrolone,etc,etc] PER WEEK and yet 1tablet of Arimidex

keeps the aromatising of estrogen away. Thats some powerfull sh!t. Sorry for the

expletives

I guess this should be intuitive seeing as how very few premenopausal women ever

get heart attacks yet their heart atack rate goes up dramatically to the same as

men after menopause.

Article with medical ref/sources will be posted later.

Regards

Jay

P.S. I recommend Muscular development magazine highly to guys on TRT as these

guys are muscle-heads with brains and are always trying to mitigate he risks of

their heavy steroid usage with he newest in scientific data on most of the drugs

we talk about. Though most of us dont go higher that 200mg of test/2wks we can

sill learn alot from these live test monkeys and their interest in staying alive

after bodybuilding.

Re: Trying Testosterone Cypionate (E2 Solution?)

Hi thank you for the suggestions. Unfortunatly I've done that before

I saw my Doctor and there is nothing that I can find that promotes

Arimidex as a proper treatment for men with high E2.

In my opinion group studies are screaming to be made. I am not

" against " Armidex in anyway. Other then for myself because I don't

feel its been given a group study for treating men like us.

[Guest guest]

>

> Arimidex can have negative effects on heart function. Believe it or

not Tamoxifen is a much better alternative..even the old nolvedex is

better for estrogen control/reduction. I will post this week an article

from muscular development magazine by Tuesday of this week.

>

> **Arimidex may be most effecient but it is NOT the safest.**

>

> Most bodybuilders only use it precontest as its so effective in doses

as low as a tablet 1mg/day. Keep in mind that some of these guys are on

up 3GRAMS of Steriods[tesosterone,nandrolone,etc,etc] PER WEEK and yet

1tablet of Arimidex keeps the aromatising of estrogen away. Thats some

powerfull sh!t. Sorry for the expletives

>

> I guess this should be intuitive seeing as how very few premenopausal

women ever get heart attacks yet their heart atack rate goes up

dramatically to the same as men after menopause.

>

> Article with medical ref/sources will be posted later.

>

> Regards

>

> Jay

>

> P.S. I recommend Muscular development magazine highly to guys on TRT

as these guys are muscle-heads with brains and are always trying to

mitigate he risks of their heavy steroid usage with he newest in

scientific data on most of the drugs we talk about. Though most of us

dont go higher that 200mg of test/2wks we can sill learn alot from these

live test monkeys and their interest in staying alive after

bodybuilding.

>

> Re: Trying Testosterone Cypionate (E2

Solution?)

>

>

> Hi thank you for the suggestions. Unfortunatly I've done that before

> I saw my Doctor and there is nothing that I can find that promotes

> Arimidex as a proper treatment for men with high E2.

>

> In my opinion group studies are screaming to be made. I am not

> " against " Armidex in anyway. Other then for myself because I don't

> feel its been given a group study for treating men like us.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Philip. I had already saved that link from a previous message of

yours.

I will probably start soon with T gel + HCG, I'll await the first lab

test results before starting DIM.

>

> The guys in the UK order it from this link and it takes about 4 weeks

to get it but they get it.

> http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html

[Guest guest]

If your doctor says that Arimidex does not lower E2 then you need

another doctor. I use it & it works. I have not noticed any side

effects.

>

> Again let me say that I say this and do NOT intend and offense. Nor,

> am I trying to tell others how to deal with their health problems.

> For what its worth this is my logic.

>

> A couple of problems I have with herbals (like Dim) In the USA the

> regulation and control of this stuff is nearly zero. So, a guy

might

> expect his pills or tablets to have variable amount of the herb he

is

> taking. And no matter what the herb does its not often studied well

> enough to pass my sniff test for safety. I can think of some male

> impotence " herbs " that are fair at causing erection but GREAT at

> raising blood pressure to insane levels. And interaction with other

> drugs or health issues? Who knows. And this DIM is not for me.

>

> *If I lived in Europe " herbals " are made and checked like any other

> drug and this would not be an issue.

>

> My second problem is that companies that sell this can't claim

> anything and thus you often get what you paid for. I've heard

several

> times that DIM use doesn't decrease lab values of E2 and if it

> doesn't? What would be the point assuming I ignored my primary

issue.

>

> And last my Doctor will grudgingly let me take " some " things as long

> as she knows what they are and has a good idea of what its really

does

> and what its supposed to be. A placebo? I dunno. DIM is not on

her

> list.

>

[Guest guest]

On Sun, 1 Jul 2007 09:23:21 +1000, you wrote:

>

>Arimidex can have negative effects on heart function.

DO you have any links on this?

[Guest guest]

On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 12:16:29 -0000, you wrote:

>> And last my Doctor will grudgingly let me take " some " things as long

>> as she knows what they are and has a good idea of what its really

>does

>> and what its supposed to be. A placebo? I dunno. DIM is not on

>her

>> list.

There's actually a lot of studies on DIM in pubmed, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3%2C3%27-Diindolylmethane

[Guest guest]

It is written that Arimidex is rather hard on your good cholesterol...your

HDL. Have you seen that your HDL has gone down much?

I also see that Dr. Chrisler in his med section at allthingsmale.com has

Arimidex, Clomid, and Tamoxifen for E2 problems. How is it determined

which drug is the best match for an individual patient?

Still learning,

Neil

________________________________

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of gin2c

Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 5:16 AM

Subject: Re: Trying Testosterone Cypionate (E2 Solution?)

If your doctor says that Arimidex does not lower E2 then you need

another doctor. I use it & it works. I have not noticed any side

effects.

>

> Again let me say that I say this and do NOT intend and offense. Nor,

> am I trying to tell others how to deal with their health problems.

> For what its worth this is my logic.

>

> A couple of problems I have with herbals (like Dim) In the USA the

> regulation and control of this stuff is nearly zero. So, a guy

might

> expect his pills or tablets to have variable amount of the herb he

is

> taking. And no matter what the herb does its not often studied well

> enough to pass my sniff test for safety. I can think of some male

> impotence " herbs " that are fair at causing erection but GREAT at

> raising blood pressure to insane levels. And interaction with other

> drugs or health issues? Who knows. And this DIM is not for me.

>

> *If I lived in Europe " herbals " are made and checked like any other

> drug and this would not be an issue.

>

> My second problem is that companies that sell this can't claim

> anything and thus you often get what you paid for. I've heard

several

> times that DIM use doesn't decrease lab values of E2 and if it

> doesn't? What would be the point assuming I ignored my primary

issue.

>

> And last my Doctor will grudgingly let me take " some " things as long

> as she knows what they are and has a good idea of what its really

does

> and what its supposed to be. A placebo? I dunno. DIM is not on

her

> list.

>

No virus found in this incoming message.

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11:54 PM

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.

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11:54 PM

[Guest guest]

I don't think you can use this info for use men the women do much higher dose's

then we do to keep E2 down. I have been on avg. .5 mgs of Arimidex every other

day and my HDL is fine I do my blood work every 6 weeks. And if it was bad for

your heart I am fine.

neil <neilneil@...> wrote: It is written that Arimidex is

rather hard on your good cholesterol...your

HDL. Have you seen that your HDL has gone down much?

I also see that Dr. Chrisler in his med section at allthingsmale.com has

Arimidex, Clomid, and Tamoxifen for E2 problems. How is it determined

which drug is the best match for an individual patient?

Still learning,

Neil

________________________________

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of gin2c

Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 5:16 AM

Subject: Re: Trying Testosterone Cypionate (E2 Solution?)

If your doctor says that Arimidex does not lower E2 then you need

another doctor. I use it & it works. I have not noticed any side

effects.

>

> Again let me say that I say this and do NOT intend and offense. Nor,

> am I trying to tell others how to deal with their health problems.

> For what its worth this is my logic.

>

> A couple of problems I have with herbals (like Dim) In the USA the

> regulation and control of this stuff is nearly zero. So, a guy

might

> expect his pills or tablets to have variable amount of the herb he

is

> taking. And no matter what the herb does its not often studied well

> enough to pass my sniff test for safety. I can think of some male

> impotence " herbs " that are fair at causing erection but GREAT at

> raising blood pressure to insane levels. And interaction with other

> drugs or health issues? Who knows. And this DIM is not for me.

>

> *If I lived in Europe " herbals " are made and checked like any other

> drug and this would not be an issue.

>

> My second problem is that companies that sell this can't claim

> anything and thus you often get what you paid for. I've heard

several

> times that DIM use doesn't decrease lab values of E2 and if it

> doesn't? What would be the point assuming I ignored my primary

issue.

>

> And last my Doctor will grudgingly let me take " some " things as long

> as she knows what they are and has a good idea of what its really

does

> and what its supposed to be. A placebo? I dunno. DIM is not on

her

> list.

>

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.10/873 - Release Date: 6/26/2007

11:54 PM

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.10/873 - Release Date: 6/26/2007

11:54 PM

Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. "

Phil

---------------------------------

Get the free toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware

protection.

[Guest guest]

That maybe why my Doctor is not keen on my using Arimidex. I've had

some serious heart issues in the past and she has her " eye " on me.

Well anyway I do thank you guys for all the info.

The Steroid injecting muscle " monkeys? " I would not say that to their

faces! ;-) One of the Doctors I was going to try to get to consult

with my MD was Dr Crisler but he is (from what I read) very into that

stuff so, as she said - she wants to consult with experts she is

familiar with and is " cool " with. He would probably fail her sniff

test.

>

> Arimidex can have negative effects on heart function. Believe it or

not Tamoxifen is a much better alternative..even the old nolvedex is

better for estrogen control/reduction. I will post this week an

article from muscular development magazine by Tuesday of this week.

>

> **Arimidex may be most effecient but it is NOT the safest.**

>

> Most bodybuilders only use it precontest as its so effective in

doses as low as a tablet 1mg/day. Keep in mind that some of these guys

are on up 3GRAMS of Steriods[tesosterone,nandrolone,etc,etc] PER WEEK

and yet 1tablet of Arimidex keeps the aromatising of estrogen away.

Thats some powerfull sh!t. Sorry for the expletives

>

> I guess this should be intuitive seeing as how very few

premenopausal women ever get heart attacks yet their heart atack rate

goes up dramatically to the same as men after menopause.

>

> Article with medical ref/sources will be posted later.

>

> Regards

>

> Jay

>

> P.S. I recommend Muscular development magazine highly to guys on TRT

as these guys are muscle-heads with brains and are always trying to

mitigate he risks of their heavy steroid usage with he newest in

scientific data on most of the drugs we talk about. Though most of us

dont go higher that 200mg of test/2wks we can sill learn alot from

these live test monkeys and their interest in staying alive after

bodybuilding.

>

> Re: Trying Testosterone Cypionate (E2

Solution?)

>

>

> Hi thank you for the suggestions. Unfortunatly I've done that before

> I saw my Doctor and there is nothing that I can find that promotes

> Arimidex as a proper treatment for men with high E2.

>

> In my opinion group studies are screaming to be made. I am not

> " against " Armidex in anyway. Other then for myself because I don't

> feel its been given a group study for treating men like us.

>

>

>

>

>

>