Re: Blood results and where I am- thoughts appreciated

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 15:30:59 -0000, you wrote:

>I have been off treatment for some weeks. Having been ill non stop

>for years on all varieties of TRT and ancillary meds irrespective of

>blood levels I am trying to come off treatment for six or seven

>months to see what happens and to see if I can get back to how I was

>pre TRT, whci was ill but much better than I have been on TRT.

>

>Here are my bloods and comments by the lab (I have converted the

>reference range and result for serum testosterone);

>

>

>LH 2.8IU/L lab range 0.8-7.6

>

>Serum Testosterone 219ng/dl lab range 245-836

>The above was described as slightly low, but steady

>

>SHBG 10nmol/l lab range 13-71

>The above described as acceptable

>

>Estradiol 69pmol/l lab range 0-150

>

>Prolactin 254miu lab range 0-350

>

>The gp and secretary stated the results were normal.

>

>I obviously know they are not but would like opinions anyway.

>

>

>I am completely exhausted all the time and suffering much in the way

>of bone pain, low mood and very poor concentration.

>

>Given that no treatment has worked I will probably put up with this

>for six months or so to see if the hpta and testosterone can improve

>enough for me to get back to how I felt pre TRT.

Sorry to hear that. How long ago did you stop before the tests were

done?

By most labs your E2 looks quite high. Have you done any E2

management to get your levels down?

Ranges for my lab are :

FEMALE: PREMENOPAUSAL ...... 13 - 498 PG/ML

POSTMENOPAUSAL ..... 0 - 55 PG/ML

MALES: .................... 8 - 43 PG/ML

I know when my levels were in the 40s I felt like pre-TRT. No energy,

brain fog, weepy, I had to work like hell to get exercise and no

matter how hard I worked out it did nothing for me. I even got bouts

of free floating anxiety where I was sure something terrible was going

to happen. This all came on about 6 weeks after starting shots. A bit

of arimidex and all that went away, almost instantly. I was clear and

energized, like after those first shots of T.

Have you had an MRI?

Your prolactin levels look high also by my labs. But I may be having

trouble with the units.

My lab says:

Nonpregnant women

Less than 25 nanograms per milliliter (ng/mL) or 25 mcg/L (SI units)

Men

Less than 20 ng/mL or 20 mcg/L (SI units)

Pregnant women

20 to 400 ng/mL or 20 to 400 mcg/L (SI units)

High values

* High levels of prolactin (usually higher than 200 ng/mL) may

mean a pituitary gland tumor (prolactinoma) is present. The higher the

prolactin level, the more likely a pituitary gland tumor is present.

If a prolactin level is over 200 ng/mL, a magnetic resonance imaging

(MRI) test may be done to confirm a pituitary tumor is present. A

normal or low prolactin level does not always mean there is no

pituitary tumor. An MRI test may be done if a pituitary tumor is

suspected.

* High levels of prolactin may mean that the pituitary gland is

making excess prolactin for unknown reasons (idiopathic

hyperprolactinemia).

* Other conditions that can cause high prolactin levels include

pregnancy, liver disease (cirrhosis), kidney disease, and

hypothyroidism.

It may be too that with E2 levels that high, blocking them would boost

your T levels - maybe even without TRT (though I'd suspect your high

E2 is a result of conversion from TRT.)

What was your TRT regimen? SHots or creams? How much? How long?

[Guest guest]

You didn't mention in your self appraisal whether or not you

naturally produce any Testosterone. I assume you probably do not

product anything from the testes. Possibly 80 or so from the

Adrenals. I am not a doctor but have had some of the same symptoms

you indicated at the end of your post. First, your Testosterone

level is low by most standards. For good health it should be

maintained in the 500-800 range. Depending on the type of HRT (gel

v/s injections) it may swing between 500 and 1100 during any given

cycle. Your E2 (Estraidol) is about three times higher than it

should be. It should be maintained in a range of 5 to 25. More

importantly, your E2 to Testosterone ratio is way too high. A ratio

between 1:20 to 1:30 would be much healthier. It is likely that the

estrogen is binding the Testosterone receptors and keeping the FSH

and LH levels normal to low. Your body thinks it has plenty of

Testosterone but is not able to utilize the free " T " available. This

will cause the mood swings, unexplained anger, lack of concentration,

a " could care less " attitude, etc.

I know because I just came down off an E2 level of 101 and know those

feelings result from an imbalance of E2 to " T " . It will also make

weight loss difficult and cause loss of libido. I suggest you find a

doctor that is more informed on male hormones and treatments.

Good Luck,

Jerry

>

> I have been off treatment for some weeks. Having been ill non stop

> for years on all varieties of TRT and ancillary meds irrespective

of

> blood levels I am trying to come off treatment for six or seven

> months to see what happens and to see if I can get back to how I

was

> pre TRT, whci was ill but much better than I have been on TRT.

>

> Here are my bloods and comments by the lab (I have converted the

> reference range and result for serum testosterone);

>

>

> LH 2.8IU/L lab range 0.8-7.6

>

> Serum Testosterone 219ng/dl lab range 245-836

> The above was described as slightly low, but steady

>

> SHBG 10nmol/l lab range 13-71

> The above described as acceptable

>

> Estradiol 69pmol/l lab range 0-150

>

> Prolactin 254miu lab range 0-350

>

> The gp and secretary stated the results were normal.

>

> I obviously know they are not but would like opinions anyway.

>

>

> I am completely exhausted all the time and suffering much in the

way

> of bone pain, low mood and very poor concentration.

>

> Given that no treatment has worked I will probably put up with this

> for six months or so to see if the hpta and testosterone can

improve

> enough for me to get back to how I felt pre TRT.

>

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

I was previouly on testogel.

I have been off testogel for over a month but I was on very small

amounts of DHT and arimidex to prevent gynecomastia returning for a

couple of weeks. I have been off all meds for a couple of weeks.

The estradiol level is not high because the reference range is in

pmol/l and not pg/ml.

The problem looks to be at least low testosterone and normal LH in

that setting.

I have previously had dynamic tests that showed boarderline GnRH

deficiency so the nature of the problems would seem to be of a

hypothalamic/pituitary origin.

I would also expect estradiol to increase as it has often been as

high as 250pmol/l off of all meds. That is equivalent to around

70pg/ml.

I have previously had liver cancer and had two thirds of my liver

removed so I suspect that the liver is not working properly despite

basic liver fuction tests suggesting otherwise.

Prolactin doesn't appear to be a problem according to the reference

range, I would have thought it was ok given the level.

Since I went on TRT libido disappeared (it was lowish but ok before),

all the hair fell out of my arm pits and I have not needed to shave

more than once every three weeks for the last three to four years.

Prior to TRT I could grow a beard in the space of about two three

days.

My bone density has also rapidy decresed on TRT form -1.5 to -2.8.

I have been on short acting frequent testosterone proprionate

injections, I have been on differing levels of Testogel, Testim and I

have tried low and high dose arimidex in combination with TRT at all

permutated levels. I have always been ill no matter what my

testosterone or estradiol levels- high, low or in-between.

On TRT I have had pain in my liver- pains that have stopped off TRT.

Every time I have gone back on TRT I ahve been very well for about a

week and then been ill again and the pains in the side returned.

With very good levels of testosterone and medium/to low normal levels

of estradiol I have had zero libido, zero morning erections, no need

to shave, no underarm hair, increaseing gynecomastia and female

weight distribution.

I can't benefit from arimidex alone as a treatment as it does not

increase my testosterone level because its effect ont the HPTA is

irrelevant due to poor GnRH. But I have produced very good

testosterone levels on HCG which bypasses the HPTA.

Anyway no treatment has ever worked and it would seem as though my

situation is a result of chemotherapy and/or poor liver function.

Prior to cancer at 17 I had a totally normal drive and normal

development.

Anyway- perhaps some that gives a context to where I am and the

bloods.

>

> >I have been off treatment for some weeks. Having been ill non

stop

> >for years on all varieties of TRT and ancillary meds irrespective

of

> >blood levels I am trying to come off treatment for six or seven

> >months to see what happens and to see if I can get back to how I

was

> >pre TRT, whci was ill but much better than I have been on TRT.

> >

> >Here are my bloods and comments by the lab (I have converted the

> >reference range and result for serum testosterone);

> >

> >

> >LH 2.8IU/L lab range 0.8-7.6

> >

> >Serum Testosterone 219ng/dl lab range 245-836

> >The above was described as slightly low, but steady

> >

> >SHBG 10nmol/l lab range 13-71

> >The above described as acceptable

> >

> >Estradiol 69pmol/l lab range 0-150

> >

> >Prolactin 254miu lab range 0-350

> >

> >The gp and secretary stated the results were normal.

> >

> >I obviously know they are not but would like opinions anyway.

> >

> >

> >I am completely exhausted all the time and suffering much in the

way

> >of bone pain, low mood and very poor concentration.

> >

> >Given that no treatment has worked I will probably put up with

this

> >for six months or so to see if the hpta and testosterone can

improve

> >enough for me to get back to how I felt pre TRT.

>

>

> Sorry to hear that. How long ago did you stop before the tests were

> done?

>

> By most labs your E2 looks quite high. Have you done any E2

> management to get your levels down?

>

> Ranges for my lab are :

> FEMALE: PREMENOPAUSAL ...... 13 - 498 PG/ML

> POSTMENOPAUSAL ..... 0 - 55 PG/ML

> MALES: .................... 8 - 43 PG/ML

>

>

> I know when my levels were in the 40s I felt like pre-TRT. No

energy,

> brain fog, weepy, I had to work like hell to get exercise and no

> matter how hard I worked out it did nothing for me. I even got bouts

> of free floating anxiety where I was sure something terrible was

going

> to happen. This all came on about 6 weeks after starting shots. A

bit

> of arimidex and all that went away, almost instantly. I was clear

and

> energized, like after those first shots of T.

>

>

>

> Have you had an MRI?

> Your prolactin levels look high also by my labs. But I may be having

> trouble with the units.

> My lab says:

>

> Nonpregnant women

> Less than 25 nanograms per milliliter (ng/mL) or 25 mcg/L (SI units)

>

> Men

> Less than 20 ng/mL or 20 mcg/L (SI units)

> Pregnant women

>

> 20 to 400 ng/mL or 20 to 400 mcg/L (SI units)

> High values

>

> * High levels of prolactin (usually higher than 200 ng/mL) may

> mean a pituitary gland tumor (prolactinoma) is present. The higher

the

> prolactin level, the more likely a pituitary gland tumor is present.

> If a prolactin level is over 200 ng/mL, a magnetic resonance imaging

> (MRI) test may be done to confirm a pituitary tumor is present. A

> normal or low prolactin level does not always mean there is no

> pituitary tumor. An MRI test may be done if a pituitary tumor is

> suspected.

> * High levels of prolactin may mean that the pituitary gland is

> making excess prolactin for unknown reasons (idiopathic

> hyperprolactinemia).

> * Other conditions that can cause high prolactin levels include

> pregnancy, liver disease (cirrhosis), kidney disease, and

> hypothyroidism.

>

>

> It may be too that with E2 levels that high, blocking them would

boost

> your T levels - maybe even without TRT (though I'd suspect your high

> E2 is a result of conversion from TRT.)

>

> What was your TRT regimen? SHots or creams? How much? How long?

>

[Guest guest]

I know how you feel, man. I have been completely ill for the past 2

years myself. My dominant symptoms are:

Completely exhausted, severe depression, apathy, poor concentration,

low sex drive, poor erections, insomnia.

I recently visited Dr. Crisler and am awaiting the 24 hour urinalysis

test he ordered.

I'll pray for you in my prayers.

God Bless,

Chris

[Guest guest]

could you tell me what that " 24 hour urinalysis " is ?

thanks

>

>

>

>

> I know how you feel, man. I have been completely ill for the past 2

> years myself. My dominant symptoms are:

>

> Completely exhausted, severe depression, apathy, poor concentration,

> low sex drive, poor erections, insomnia.

>

> I recently visited Dr. Crisler and am awaiting the 24 hour

urinalysis

> test he ordered.

>

> I'll pray for you in my prayers.

>

> God Bless,

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

> I have previously had dynamic tests that showed boarderline GnRH

> deficiency so the nature of the problems would seem to be of a

> hypothalamic/pituitary origin.

Did you undertake MRI after that ??

When there is a deficiency of pituitary origin you can easily have

other insufficient releases. What about GH ? A severe lack of GH

makes any TRT unuseful, for instance.

" In many forms of hypopituitarism.... a characteristic evolution of

pituitary failure is apparent. Secretion of GH fails first, followed

by luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle stimulating hormone, and

finally by failure of ACTH "

Page 4 here:

http://www.endocrinology.org/education/resource/EndocrineNurseCourse/e

nt06/Shalet%20S.pdf

It appears GH could be dangerous for tumor growth only when it is

given in excess, not when used for replacement of a severe deficiency

bringing it to a normal value.

> My bone density has also rapidy decresed on TRT form -1.5 to -2.8.

GH, GH !! I'm not a physician and really less knowlegeable than many

guys here, but read at the link aforementioned, pag. 5, left column.

Chis, in my very humble opinion you need to find a good pituitary

center performing, after MRI, a thoroughly hormonal check-up. Not

basal tests only.

> all the hair fell out of my arm pits and I have not needed to shave

> more than once every three weeks for the last three to four years.

> Prior to TRT I could grow a beard in the space of about two three

> days.

Strange. Lack of beard growth could be for DHT deficiency. And DHT is

important for libido and sexual function as well. Did you test for

DHT ? As I previously said you need a thoroughly checking of all

hormones, chiz.

good luck

Paolo

[Guest guest]

Hey - I know that must be frustrating going on this long. The thing that

separates you form us average Joe's is your liver. I think I would investigate

more into how the liver functions relative to elimination of the various

hormones and by products. Sounds like you been through all the so called normal

treatments and they just didn't work. Your T level is definitely too low (as you

know) but when you attempt to raise it, something causes you to fell bad. Sounds

like the additional chemistry in your system is overloading your liver. This is

just an un-educated guess on my part. May be you should look into how to improve

liver efficency and then try the shots again doing low levels more frequently so

you don't spike your system (like 20-30 mg every 3 days). Wish I had a smoking

gun for you but you are a special case. Good Luck - Arkansas

chis_az <chis_az@...> wrote: I have been off treatment for some

weeks. Having been ill non stop

for years on all varieties of TRT and ancillary meds irrespective of

blood levels I am trying to come off treatment for six or seven

months to see what happens and to see if I can get back to how I was

pre TRT, whci was ill but much better than I have been on TRT.

Here are my bloods and comments by the lab (I have converted the

reference range and result for serum testosterone);

LH 2.8IU/L lab range 0.8-7.6

Serum Testosterone 219ng/dl lab range 245-836

The above was described as slightly low, but steady

SHBG 10nmol/l lab range 13-71

The above described as acceptable

Estradiol 69pmol/l lab range 0-150

Prolactin 254miu lab range 0-350

The gp and secretary stated the results were normal.

I obviously know they are not but would like opinions anyway.

I am completely exhausted all the time and suffering much in the way

of bone pain, low mood and very poor concentration.

Given that no treatment has worked I will probably put up with this

for six months or so to see if the hpta and testosterone can improve

enough for me to get back to how I felt pre TRT.

Chris

---------------------------------

Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Guest guest]

I had an MRI and it came back ok. I also had GH tested via an

Insulin Tollerance Test and my response was fairly good.

>

> > I have previously had dynamic tests that showed boarderline GnRH

> > deficiency so the nature of the problems would seem to be of a

> > hypothalamic/pituitary origin.

>

> Did you undertake MRI after that ??

>

> When there is a deficiency of pituitary origin you can easily have

> other insufficient releases. What about GH ? A severe lack of GH

> makes any TRT unuseful, for instance.

>

> " In many forms of hypopituitarism.... a characteristic evolution of

> pituitary failure is apparent. Secretion of GH fails first,

followed

> by luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle stimulating hormone, and

> finally by failure of ACTH "

> Page 4 here:

>

http://www.endocrinology.org/education/resource/EndocrineNurseCourse/e

> nt06/Shalet%20S.pdf

>

>

> It appears GH could be dangerous for tumor growth only when it is

> given in excess, not when used for replacement of a severe

deficiency

> bringing it to a normal value.

>

>

> > My bone density has also rapidy decresed on TRT form -1.5 to -2.8.

>

> GH, GH !! I'm not a physician and really less knowlegeable than

many

> guys here, but read at the link aforementioned, pag. 5, left column.

>

> Chis, in my very humble opinion you need to find a good pituitary

> center performing, after MRI, a thoroughly hormonal check-up. Not

> basal tests only.

>

>

>

> > all the hair fell out of my arm pits and I have not needed to

shave

> > more than once every three weeks for the last three to four

years.

> > Prior to TRT I could grow a beard in the space of about two three

> > days.

>

>

>

> Strange. Lack of beard growth could be for DHT deficiency. And DHT

is

> important for libido and sexual function as well. Did you test for

> DHT ? As I previously said you need a thoroughly checking of all

> hormones, chiz.

>

>

> good luck

> Paolo

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dan,

I have seen liver specilaists and they have just written off the

possibility of any liver interaction because the basic liver function

tests come back normal.

A radiographer perfoming an ultrasound of my liver said that my liver

was very small....but again according to the liver specilaists this

is not a problem.

Another issue here is that the endocrinologists do not understand any

possible interaction of problem that could be caused by the liver and

the liver specilaist have little to no knowledge of endocrinology and

how it could maybe effect the liver...

If and it is a big iF that this is the cause of my problems, the

issue falls between too stools, between two specilaities with each

uninterested.

Whenever I have ever gone onto TRT after coming off TRT the pains in

my side where my liver is stop. Whenever I have gone back on TRT I

have always felt very good irrespective of expectation. Even when

expectation of being well was very low. Then after as little as a

couple of days to a week I start feeling awful again and the pains in

the side return.

I can't go with a anti estrogen or aromatase inhibitor treatment with

the idea being that the liver might not get rid of excess estrogen

because the GnRH deficency means that such treatments do not prime my

hypothalamus into producing enough testosterone- no significant rise

in GnRH...

I have good levels of testosterone on HCG, but the same problems and

in fact even on very low levels of HCG, as in 100IU every other day I

get significant gynecomastia.

Every which way there has been no answer to my problems...

Symptomatically it has been like incurable hypogonadism....but of

course it could be something else being left untreated and the

hypogonadism could be coincidental.

Four years, a wealth of laymans knowledge streched to the limit and

simply no answers.

I have been off treatment for

some weeks. Having been ill non stop

> for years on all varieties of TRT and ancillary meds irrespective

of

> blood levels I am trying to come off treatment for six or seven

> months to see what happens and to see if I can get back to how I

was

> pre TRT, whci was ill but much better than I have been on TRT.

>

> Here are my bloods and comments by the lab (I have converted the

> reference range and result for serum testosterone);

>

> LH 2.8IU/L lab range 0.8-7.6

>

> Serum Testosterone 219ng/dl lab range 245-836

> The above was described as slightly low, but steady

>

> SHBG 10nmol/l lab range 13-71

> The above described as acceptable

>

> Estradiol 69pmol/l lab range 0-150

>

> Prolactin 254miu lab range 0-350

>

> The gp and secretary stated the results were normal.

>

> I obviously know they are not but would like opinions anyway.

>

> I am completely exhausted all the time and suffering much in the

way

> of bone pain, low mood and very poor concentration.

>

> Given that no treatment has worked I will probably put up with this

> for six months or so to see if the hpta and testosterone can

improve

> enough for me to get back to how I felt pre TRT.

>

> Chris

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 18:52:49 -0000, you wrote:

>The estradiol level is not high because the reference range is in

>pmol/l and not pg/ml.

AH, thanks!. I run the conversion and it comes in at 18 to 19.

It's actually quite possible you are too low instead. I can tell you I

had a reading of 14 and at that level I had crashed. ED issues,

lethargy, brain fog. I felt awful. By the time it hit 8, I was much

worse off than preTRT.

And at risk of re-entering our previous " discussion " it might explain

a bit of your bone density issues?

I'd suggest trying to boost T via shots and letting E2 climb a bit and

see how you feel.

I understand your urge to go back to when you felt better pre-TRT, but

for most of us that has profound health impacts. Your low bone density

in your spine could get worse and that could prove debilitating in the

long run. Myself I was cracking ribs right and left with low T and I

assume low E2 (they didn't test me till I demanded it much later after

T lost it's " kick " ).

It does sound like you've run the gamut though. I feel your

frustration. Did TRT ever have you feeling better- even briefly? In

the beginning before an E2 climb perhaps?

I may be possible you have a rarer malady perhaps. Klinefelters, or a

genetic receptor issue. There are several odd and rare genetic

disorders where selected T receptors are not produced, and despite

adequate T some effects are not generated. There are also several rare

disorders where DHT, E2 or assorted enzymes are not produced or don't

work correctly.

Several of them are discussed in " The Neurological Origins of

Individuality " by the teaching company.

http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursedesclong2.aspx?cid=1597 & id=1597

http://cgi.ebay.com/The-Teaching-Company-Biology-and-Human-Behavior-CDs_W0QQitem\

Z180135774811QQihZ008QQcategoryZ29792QQcmdZViewItem

Cheaper copies can be found. Or your library may have it. Failing

that, if money's an issue I can send you my copy.

(Personally I like the first edition better than this the second

edition, it has more discussion on sex hormones. You may find the

first for sale via e-bay or such).(Hey I just found a VHS version for

$10 ! I hope this is the whole set. 8 hrs in edition 1.)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0009RCHBO/ref=dp_olp_0/002-9547703-05336\

54?ie=UTF8 & condition=all

)

I highly recommend this to you. You clearly have the science

background to get a lot out of this. It's helped me understand the

issues far better for myself.

[Guest guest]

***The estradiol level is not high because the reference range is in

pmol/l and not pg/ml.****

Quote

AH, thanks!. I run the conversion and it comes in at 18 to 19.

It's actually quite possible you are too low instead. I can tell you I

had a reading of 14 and at that level I had crashed. ED issues,

lethargy, brain fog. I felt awful. By the time it hit 8, I was much

worse off than preTRT.

And at risk of re-entering our previous " discussion " it might explain

a bit of your bone density issues?

I'd suggest trying to boost T via shots and letting E2 climb a bit and

see how you feel.

Unquote

***I have previously had very high E2 on TRT and I have also had

perfect numbers of E2 an dgreat numbers of testosterone- neither has

had me feeling remotely right.***

I understand your urge to go back to when you felt better pre-TRT, but

for most of us that has profound health impacts. Your low bone density

in your spine could get worse and that could prove debilitating in the

long run. Myself I was cracking ribs right and left with low T and I

assume low E2 (they didn't test me till I demanded it much later after

T lost it's " kick " ).

***I am aware of this and it is a worry like many things. But when

no treatment or ancillary med works regardless of permutation works

and believe me I have tried them all……then you are left in a very

difficult position. And the question of how I via TRT reached a

point of no return, and can I get back to how I was pre TRT (ill but

better) can only be answered by trial and error.

I have had two careers one as a computer software producer running

multi million pound budgets and multiple departments and the

other/latter as a tennis coach. I got out of the rat race on health

and lifestyle grounds. AS a pro coach I was doing well until the

cartilage cracked and fell out of my arm (osteochondritis) something

linked to the osteoporosis So not only do I have osteoporosis of

the lumber spine and the pain of that day in day out, but I also lost

a career because of the effects. I know the potential problems only

too well.***

Quote

It does sound like you've run the gamut though. I feel your

frustration. Did TRT ever have you feeling better- even briefly? In

the beginning before an E2 climb perhaps?

Unquote

****I appreciate the post and the fact that you are trying to apply

good honest logic and facts too it. Unfortunately because you have

not been privy to all that has gone on, all that I have tried and

where I have been, these things have already been covered. Your post

and comments and correct and welcome though.

TRT did have me feeling better initially. But like I said I have had

perfect numbers for E2 and testosterone without success. I have also

had every permutation of level and dosage of both TRT and or

ancillary med. And nothing has ever worked. In fact the first time

I was ever on TRT I felt brilliant for about three days and then my

nuts shrank and I felt terrible. I was tested and within three days

my LH had gone to 0.1 and was described as undetectable on only one

packet on testogel….Every time I come of TRT my pain in my liver

disappears, everytime I go back on TRT I feel great for a day or so

and then I start getting pains in my side and feel terrible again.****

Quote

I may be possible you have a rarer malady perhaps. Klinefelters, or a

genetic receptor issue. There are several odd and rare genetic

disorders where selected T receptors are not produced, and despite

adequate T some effects are not generated. There are also several rare

disorders where DHT, E2 or assorted enzymes are not produced or don't

work correctly.

Unquote

**I do not wish to sound arrogant but I am one of the most educated

people in the world in laymans terms on these matters.

Not only did I point the doctors to a testosterone deficiency on the

initial basis of my symptoms when they didn't have a clue, I also

diagnosed the fact that I was hypogonadotropic before the medical

profession did by getting myself on HCG privately and obtaining my

own pathology tests. Furthermore I saw a geneticist who questioned

whether it could be possible for something like Klinefelteres or

Kallmans (despite my skeletal and genital development suggesting

normality)…….I had already gone off and obtained the chromosomal

tests independently and ascertained the reality…..that I do not have

such an issue. I have also read both Shippens book, both Carruthers

endocrine books and every white paper and study on the subject of

note from the last 15 years.****

I DO appreciate your post and logical/reasoned comments. You could

not have possibly known the extent of where I have been in all this.

The way I see it I can only try and see how I do off treatment, see

if the HPTA can recover and see if I can get back to the more

acceptable level of illness I had pre TRT.

As it stands the last four years have been the worst of my life and

far worse than having liver cancer or bladder cancer. And that is

saying a lot because I had an 11 hour operation for the liver

cancer/chemotherapy and only had a 12% chance of living 10 years….my

odds of surviving the original cancer op were virtually non existent

as I had several aggressive malignant tumors.

But like I say the last four years of my life have been the worst by

far.

I am far worse/more ill than anything that I ever hear being talked

about in terms of hypogonadism- apart from maybe how people feel with

zero testosterone pre treatment might feel post testicular cancer and

removal of both……I feel probably on that level…but there is no end to

the experience, pain and difficulty.

I feel like a prisoner in my own body, I feel incarcerated in the

worst way imaginable by my own mind and body…given all the symptoms.

I'm trying to see if I can get back to how I felt pre treatment, I

fthat doesn't work...then who knows?

[Guest guest]

>

> So do you just drop off a big gallon jug at LabCorp or something? wow

>

> Neil

You take a specific amount from the 24 hour collection, freeze it, and

send it with a frozen refrigerant gel to the lab, as I understand it.

[Guest guest]

I'm surprised much is coming across at all at the moment

retrogrouch. I have started to struggle to articulate myself in

recent days, concentration, memory and general cognitive abilities

are suffering quite badly.

Trying to get through each day so I can put x number of weeks/months

behind me so I can know for sure whether or not coming off treatment

works or not. I have to put myself through the mill to know for sure

one way or the other, so it very much be a case of hanging in there.

I have read quite a bit that points to the importance of the

cytochrome p450 and liver function, Dr Shippen details its importance

in the Testosterone Syndrome. Unfortunately no one in the UK has

been able to help in any way whatsoever when it comes to considering

liver function in the context of hypognadism; if indeed that is my

problem.

Anyway I am where I am, I'll post how it goes at a later date.

I appreciate your post and comments and those of others.

Thanks

Chris

>

> >Not only did I point the doctors to a testosterone deficiency on

the

> >initial basis of my symptoms when they didn't have a clue, I also

> >diagnosed the fact that I was hypogonadotropic before the medical

> >profession did by getting myself on HCG privately and obtaining my

> >own pathology tests. Furthermore I saw a geneticist who

questioned

> >whether it could be possible for something like Klinefelteres or

> >Kallmans (despite my skeletal and genital development suggesting

> >normality)…….I had already gone off and obtained the chromosomal

> >tests independently and ascertained the reality…..that I do not

have

> >such an issue. I have also read both Shippens book, both

Carruthers

> >endocrine books and every white paper and study on the subject of

> >note from the last 15 years.****

>

>

> This comes through in lots of your posts. I appreciate the knowledge

> you share and the scientific base for your positions. I've read

quite

> a bit too and have a sceientifc/biological background. I like and

need

> to understand the science and why of these things for myself.

>

> . . .

>

> >But like I say the last four years of my life have been the worst

by

> >far.

> >

> >I am far worse/more ill than anything that I ever hear being

talked

> >about in terms of hypogonadism- apart from maybe how people feel

with

> >zero testosterone pre treatment might feel post testicular cancer

and

> >removal of both……I feel probably on that level…but there is no end

to

> >the experience, pain and difficulty.

> >

> >I feel like a prisoner in my own body, I feel incarcerated in the

> >worst way imaginable by my own mind and body…given all the

symptoms.

> >

> >I'm trying to see if I can get back to how I felt pre treatment, I

> >fthat doesn't work...then who knows?

>

> All I can say is it sucks. And I hope you find something that works

> for you.

>

> On the liver tumors, we are seeing an expanding use of what's called

> gamma knife treatment over chemo in the states that is providing a

lot

> of hope. It sounds like your not there yet, And like you probably

know

> a good bit about it. If not check it out. A friend of mine is

dealing

> with liver tumors from melanoma.

>

> Hang in there. Let us know how things progress in your experiment.

>

> I've read some stuff on liver function and T that's frankly over my

> head that I haven't felt a need to plow through to understanding.

Has

> to do with the role of cytochrome p450 and enzymes in the liver in

> Testosterone chemistry in the body. May be of interest to you?

>

> Stuff like this:

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=9328296 & dopt=Abstract

> http://dmd.aspetjournals.org/cgi/reprint/33/6/714.pdf

>

[Guest guest]

Are you able to sleep well?

Push through man...eventually you and I will hit upon what is

happening with us. My situation isn't obvious to doctors either, but I

hope Dr Crisler can see something everyone has missed after my urine

sample.

God Bless,

Chris