Re: Hello new to the group...

[Guest guest]

> What is the usual dose people are using; I’m 6’2 300lb 37 years

old.

I'm 220 lbs., 49 years old on 10g Androgel and it is not enough for

me. I only got my total T level to 331.

> My Endo refuses to test me for E2/DHT she just tells me “we

don’t do

Your endo is right - you must be tested for at least E2. Time to get

a new doc if she won't learn.

[Guest guest]

Hi Pat and Welcome,

If you have a Thyroid problem this can make your skin to thick and the gel has

a hard time getting into your blood stream. Your post is a bit hard to read the

type is set funny.

And way yes do try 10 grams of Androgel rub on packet on you upper arms and

shoulders and down you back as far as you can reach. Do the same on the other

side after a morning shower I would shave first to be sure i was dry. Spread it

over the areas good but do not rub it in let is dry from wet. When your tests

come back for Total and Free T they should be up in the upper 1/3 of your labs

range for a young man and you do need your Estradiol " E2 " Tested this can make

you treatment not work if high keep this between 10 to 30 best at 20 high E2

will kill your sex life make you feel panic and give you brain fog. I would do

the HCG 250 IU's every 3 days on gels go to www.allthingsmale.com and read TRT:

A Recipe for Success and the HCG Update. A lot of us are on this in one form or

the other.

You need to be extreme about this learn as much as you can go to the home page

and on the left are links and files read them learn so when you do see a Dr. and

this Dr. comes off the wall you will know it.

If you secondary did you have an MRI on your Pituitary Gland if not get this

done need to know what is wrong.

What do you take for your Thyroid this is a dam good site.

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

Have your moning cortisol levels checked we are finding a lot of men with

Thyroid problems and Low T have Adrenal Fatiuge.

Your weight has nothing to do with your dose of T you need to be on TRT for a

time get leveled then your body will start to undo the damage done by low T it

takes time and is a slow process. You should feel better a little at a time

over the next 4 to 8 months it just keeps getting better as long as your levels

are up and your E2 is down.

Phil

ozzpat <cfhozz@...> wrote:

Hello everyone,

I’m fairly new to this group, I have been doing allot of reading at

this site and it’s been very informative.

I’ve been recently diagnosed with secondary hypogonadism in the last

few months but I think I have been suffering with this for many years

now. Ten years ago I was diagnosed with Hypothyroidism after

consulting a GP regarding many of the same symptoms I’m finding out

that also results with hypogonadism. I was treated for my thyroid but

when I wasn’t feeling any better we started on the psychotropic band

wagon. After going to three different psychiatrists and many different

meds that I would quit because they did nothing for me I finally gave

up and resigned my self to having to feel this way.

At 38 and after being married for eight years and no kids my wife and

I decided to look into the problem so I requested my doctor to give me

a script for a sperm analysis he said before that lets look at your T

levels so he checked my TTL T’s I believe they where around 120 so on

to the Endo.. I went. She took some tests and found my Free T’s to be

“way below normal†I’m still waiting for my copies I’ll post when I

have them all.

Problem was she wanted us to go to a fertility clinic to be treated

being we where talking about having kids so I went and they did there

tests and the only thing they would do for my wife and I was IVF and

possibly give me “clomed†to increase my T’s so they could get a

viable sample. Needless to say we don’t have the money to pay for this

and our insurance will only cover 5k of the procedures so we have

decided to adopt instead.

So back to the Endo and after arguing for some time she agreed to put

me on T therapy. 5g of Androderm. I tried this for 3 weeks and was

feeling about 60% better but couldn’t deal with the skin issues even

using hydrocordisol cream so I had her switch me to Androgel 5g but

this doesn’t seem to be having the same affect. I tried using 1 ½

packs one day to see what happened and felt much better so I’m going

to have to call her and have my dose increased.

Ok that’s my history so now some questions:

What is the usual dose people are using; I’m 6’2 300lb 37 years old.

My Endo (after much arguing) has agreed to put me on 500iu HCG once a

week to relive the atrophy issue and from what I have been reading I

should see some other benefits also. I am waiting on MEDCO’s approval

is there anything else I should know about doing this, any input would

be appreciated.

My Endo refuses to test me for E2/DHT she just tells me “we don’t do

that†I hate to sound disingenuous but I’m having a consultation with

a Urologist next week who’s office says they do these tests and treat

many patients with my conditions. From my talks with the Endo she

doesn’t seem to have much experience in treating Low T’s.

So am I being to extreme about this?

Thank you in advance for any input you could provide me,

Pat

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Wow kincaiddave if you levels are only 331 on 10 grams you need to try shots. I

do 40mgs. of Depo T every 3 days = 100mgs a week I do this to stay leveled and

keep Estradiol down. I use a smal 27g 1ml x 1/2 " lg. needle to do this the T

comes out slow so I pull the plunger all the way down and hold it until I get my

does. I also do HCG the 2 days in between 400 IU's if you try this do 250 IU's.

Your gel is not working and this happens I was on gels for a time and the longer

I was on them the lower my levels went.

Phil

kincaiddave <no_reply > wrote:

> What is the usual dose people are using; I’m 6’2 300lb 37 years

old.

I'm 220 lbs., 49 years old on 10g Androgel and it is not enough for

me. I only got my total T level to 331.

> My Endo refuses to test me for E2/DHT she just tells me “we

don’t do

Your endo is right - you must be tested for at least E2. Time to get

a new doc if she won't learn.

---------------------------------

Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+

countries) for 2¢/min or less.

[Guest guest]

<pmgamer18@...> wrote:

>

> Wow kincaiddave if you levels are only 331 on 10 grams you need to

try shots.

You're exactly right! I finally had my appointment today and he is

putting me on 100mg/week. I don't want to hi-jack this thread and

will make my own to tell about the appointment.

[Guest guest]

High everyone I thought I would tell you about my progress or lack

there of in some areas.

I suffer from secondary hypogonadism my Pit scan stated: Asymmetry of

the Pituitary Gland on the Left, Cannot Exclude Adenoma†so I have to

have another MRI done in a few months. I have also been diagnosed and

am treated for Hypothyroidism (no idea if it’s primary or secondary)

Hear are my test results thus far:

Ref.. Range Results

CONDITION SPECIFIC

TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL (241-827 ng/dl) 145

FREE TESTOSTERONE (50-210pg/ml) 20.8

FSH (1. 6-8.0 mIU/mL) 2.6

LH (1.5-9.3 mIU/mL) 3.2

GH (</5 ng/mL) 0.1

SEX HORMONE BIND GLOB (5-49 nmol/L) 13

VITAMIN B12,SERUM (200-1100 pg/mL) 400

PSA (<4.0 ng/mL) 1.01

Iron (40-190 ug/dl) 47

TSH (.40-5.50 mIU/L) 4.24

T4, FREE (.8-1.8 ng/dl) 1.4

TSH W/FREE T4 RFX (0.40-5.50 mIU/L) 1.44

FERRITIN (18-250 ng/mL (Male) 84

PROLACTIN (0-14 ng/mL) 10.6

CORTISOL, TOTAL SERUM (5-21 ug/dl) 18.9

TRANSFERRIN, SERUM (160 to 370 mg/dl) 214

FOLATE,SERUM (> 5.4 ng/mL) 9.4

This is before I started on my treatment I’m taking 5g Androgel and

250mcg Ovidrel(HCG) 2x week.

After two weeks of starting Androderm I switched to Androgel, I felt a

definite decrease in how I was feeling a week later I started on the

HCG and I started to feel allot better but not 100%. When my Endo

prescribed me my meds she told me to get my blood test in three months

and we will see where we are but I felt that was to long so she wrote

me out a script and told me to get one two weeks after I started the

HCG so here I am two weeks later I open the script to check it before

I go and it has no tests for T’s or E2 just CBC’s Lipids and Thyroid…

I was a little upset to say the least so I called her up and she said

to just write it in and I said good because I want the E2 tests done,

so we argued on the phone for about two minutes as she told me I don’t

need that test and I should stop reading about all of this, she did

the same thing with me regarding the HCG and when she gave me the

script for Ovidrel I had no idea it was the most expensive medicine

she could have prescribed (but my co-pay is the same so I didn’t care)

but the battle she gave me over it was ridiculous. I don’t understand

how they can say “your shrinking testicles are just a side affect and

don’t worry about it†and you just need to deal with it. What a bunch

of bull.

I have to say after starting the HCG I have witnessed a welcomed turn

around in testicle size. I didn’t think it was going to affect me that

much to see them start to shrink but it did and I’m VERY VERY happy I

do read and started taking this with my TRT.

I digress so I filled out my own blood test sheet and put down

(Estradiol E2 extraction method/sensitive essay for males) is this

correct. I also have Testosterone Total and Free Testosterone. Is

there anything else I should add?

After I get these numbers back and get my levels adjusted once again

with the Endo I have now I’m getting a new one. I also have problems

with my GH and she doesn’t want to do anything with it. I think its

best to get this sorted out then move on to that with another doctor.

Any thoughts on Adult growth hormone deficiency? Is there anyone

being treated for this? Anyone know a good doctor in North Jersey?

I have to say besides the problems with the doctors this has been the

best thing I have done in my life. I’m feeling much better, my memory

is starting to come back, I’m able to get up and move I actually

started back at the gym 30 minutes a day something I haven’t done in

over ten years. I feel like I’m starting to get my life back and it is

great.

This has been a great place to get information on this disease; I just

want to thank you all for being so supportive.

Pat

[Guest guest]

Hi Pat-

Ha! Wish I had the guts to write in my own tests, lol. 'Course I'd

probably have one P.O.'d doctor when it got back.

I'd say its worth it to get the E2 value. I think 90% of Dr.s refuse

to run it. And, yeah " Estradiol E2 extraction method/sensitive essay

for males " , that's the one.

On some of my lab results, the lab will sometime

recommend " Bioavailable T " over " Free T " but I don't know how much

difference there is. Nice to have either one.

Your TSH may be a little higher than some Dr.s would like (mine,

anyway) but you're still in range. Testosterone needs some help,

though. Be interesting to see how the newer tests come back.

I think Ovidrel is the synthetic HCG so, yeah, your Dr. has expensive

taste.

Rich

>

> High everyone I thought I would tell you about my progress or lack

> there of in some areas.

>

> I suffer from secondary hypogonadism my Pit scan stated: Asymmetry

of

> the Pituitary Gland on the Left, Cannot Exclude Adenoma†so I

have to

> have another MRI done in a few months. I have also been diagnosed

and

> am treated for Hypothyroidism (no idea if it’s primary or

secondary)

>

> Hear are my test results thus far:

>

> Ref.. Range Results

> CONDITION SPECIFIC

> TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL (241-827 ng/dl) 145

> FREE TESTOSTERONE (50-210pg/ml) 20.8

> FSH (1. 6-8.0 mIU/mL) 2.6

> LH (1.5-9.3 mIU/mL) 3.2

> GH (</5 ng/mL) 0.1

> SEX HORMONE BIND GLOB (5-49 nmol/L) 13

> VITAMIN B12,SERUM (200-1100 pg/mL) 400

> PSA (<4.0 ng/mL) 1.01

> Iron (40-190 ug/dl) 47

> TSH (.40-5.50 mIU/L) 4.24

> T4, FREE (.8-1.8 ng/dl) 1.4

> TSH W/FREE T4 RFX (0.40-5.50 mIU/L) 1.44

> FERRITIN (18-250 ng/mL (Male) 84

> PROLACTIN (0-14 ng/mL) 10.6

> CORTISOL, TOTAL SERUM (5-21 ug/dl) 18.9

> TRANSFERRIN, SERUM (160 to 370 mg/dl) 214

> FOLATE,SERUM (> 5.4 ng/mL) 9.4

>

> This is before I started on my treatment I’m taking 5g Androgel

and

> 250mcg Ovidrel(HCG) 2x week.

>

> After two weeks of starting Androderm I switched to Androgel, I

felt a

> definite decrease in how I was feeling a week later I started on the

> HCG and I started to feel allot better but not 100%. When my Endo

> prescribed me my meds she told me to get my blood test in three

months

> and we will see where we are but I felt that was to long so she

wrote

> me out a script and told me to get one two weeks after I started the

> HCG so here I am two weeks later I open the script to check it

before

> I go and it has no tests for T’s or E2 just CBC’s Lipids and

Thyroid…

>

> I was a little upset to say the least so I called her up and she

said

> to just write it in and I said good because I want the E2 tests

done,

> so we argued on the phone for about two minutes as she told me I

don’t

> need that test and I should stop reading about all of this, she did

> the same thing with me regarding the HCG and when she gave me the

> script for Ovidrel I had no idea it was the most expensive medicine

> she could have prescribed (but my co-pay is the same so I didn’t

care)

> but the battle she gave me over it was ridiculous. I don’t

understand

> how they can say “your shrinking testicles are just a side affect

and

> don’t worry about it†and you just need to deal with it. What a

bunch

> of bull.

>

> I have to say after starting the HCG I have witnessed a welcomed

turn

> around in testicle size. I didn’t think it was going to affect me

that

> much to see them start to shrink but it did and I’m VERY VERY

happy I

> do read and started taking this with my TRT.

>

> I digress so I filled out my own blood test sheet and put down

> (Estradiol E2 extraction method/sensitive essay for males) is this

> correct. I also have Testosterone Total and Free Testosterone. Is

> there anything else I should add?

>

> After I get these numbers back and get my levels adjusted once again

> with the Endo I have now I’m getting a new one. I also have

problems

> with my GH and she doesn’t want to do anything with it. I think

its

> best to get this sorted out then move on to that with another

doctor.

> Any thoughts on Adult growth hormone deficiency? Is there anyone

> being treated for this? Anyone know a good doctor in North Jersey?

>

> I have to say besides the problems with the doctors this has been

the

> best thing I have done in my life. I’m feeling much better, my

memory

> is starting to come back, I’m able to get up and move I actually

> started back at the gym 30 minutes a day something I haven’t done

in

> over ten years. I feel like I’m starting to get my life back and

it is

> great.

>

> This has been a great place to get information on this disease; I

just

> want to thank you all for being so supportive.

>

> Pat

>

[Guest guest]

I went in today to have my blood sucked so I should have my results in the

next few days and I'll post them. I only put in my own tests because she

forgot to do it. I find that really sad when they are supposed to be

treating you for something and they fail to put down the correct tests. She

told me to fill it in I just insisted on the E2 tests. I'm going to switch

doctors I don't think she has any real experience treating this. On top of

all of this my PCP wanted his tests done so I went to his office and had one

big sheet filled out to cover it all.

As far as the TSH goes I have had many tests done and this was the first to

show that high it is usually in the middle to low range it is being re-run

on the blood work I'm having done so we will see.

Thanks again ,

Pat

On 10/26/06, Rich <caliconine@...> wrote:

>

> Hi Pat-

> Ha! Wish I had the guts to write in my own tests, lol. 'Course I'd

> probably have one P.O.'d doctor when it got back.

> I'd say its worth it to get the E2 value. I think 90% of Dr.s refuse

> to run it. And, yeah " Estradiol E2 extraction method/sensitive essay

> for males " , that's the one.

> On some of my lab results, the lab will sometime

> recommend " Bioavailable T " over " Free T " but I don't know how much

> difference there is. Nice to have either one.

> Your TSH may be a little higher than some Dr.s would like (mine,

> anyway) but you're still in range. Testosterone needs some help,

> though. Be interesting to see how the newer tests come back.

>

> I think Ovidrel is the synthetic HCG so, yeah, your Dr. has expensive

> taste.

> Rich

>

>

> >

> > High everyone I thought I would tell you about my progress or lack

> > there of in some areas.

> >

> > I suffer from secondary hypogonadism my Pit scan stated: Asymmetry

> of

> > the Pituitary Gland on the Left, Cannot Exclude Adenoma " so I

> have to

> > have another MRI done in a few months. I have also been diagnosed

> and

> > am treated for Hypothyroidism (no idea if it's primary or

> secondary)

> >

> > Hear are my test results thus far:

> >

> > Ref.. Range Results

>

> > CONDITION SPECIFIC

> > TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL (241-827 ng/dl) 145

> > FREE TESTOSTERONE (50-210pg/ml) 20.8

> > FSH (1. 6-8.0 mIU/mL) 2.6

> > LH (1.5-9.3 mIU/mL) 3.2

> > GH (</5 ng/mL) 0.1

> > SEX HORMONE BIND GLOB (5-49 nmol/L) 13

> > VITAMIN B12,SERUM (200-1100 pg/mL) 400

> > PSA (<4.0 ng/mL) 1.01

> > Iron (40-190 ug/dl) 47

> > TSH (.40-5.50 mIU/L) 4.24

> > T4, FREE (.8-1.8 ng/dl) 1.4

> > TSH W/FREE T4 RFX (0.40-5.50 mIU/L) 1.44

> > FERRITIN (18-250 ng/mL (Male) 84

> > PROLACTIN (0-14 ng/mL) 10.6

> > CORTISOL, TOTAL SERUM (5-21 ug/dl) 18.9

> > TRANSFERRIN, SERUM (160 to 370 mg/dl) 214

> > FOLATE,SERUM (> 5.4 ng/mL) 9.4

> >

> > This is before I started on my treatment I'm taking 5g Androgel

> and

> > 250mcg Ovidrel(HCG) 2x week.

> >

> > After two weeks of starting Androderm I switched to Androgel, I

> felt a

> > definite decrease in how I was feeling a week later I started on the

> > HCG and I started to feel allot better but not 100%. When my Endo

> > prescribed me my meds she told me to get my blood test in three

> months

> > and we will see where we are but I felt that was to long so she

> wrote

> > me out a script and told me to get one two weeks after I started the

> > HCG so here I am two weeks later I open the script to check it

> before

> > I go and it has no tests for T's or E2 just CBC's Lipids and

> Thyroid…

> >

> > I was a little upset to say the least so I called her up and she

> said

> > to just write it in and I said good because I want the E2 tests

> done,

> > so we argued on the phone for about two minutes as she told me I

> don't

> > need that test and I should stop reading about all of this, she did

> > the same thing with me regarding the HCG and when she gave me the

> > script for Ovidrel I had no idea it was the most expensive medicine

> > she could have prescribed (but my co-pay is the same so I didn't

> care)

> > but the battle she gave me over it was ridiculous. I don't

> understand

> > how they can say " your shrinking testicles are just a side affect

> and

> > don't worry about it " and you just need to deal with it. What a

> bunch

> > of bull.

> >

> > I have to say after starting the HCG I have witnessed a welcomed

> turn

> > around in testicle size. I didn't think it was going to affect me

> that

> > much to see them start to shrink but it did and I'm VERY VERY

> happy I

> > do read and started taking this with my TRT.

> >

> > I digress so I filled out my own blood test sheet and put down

> > (Estradiol E2 extraction method/sensitive essay for males) is this

> > correct. I also have Testosterone Total and Free Testosterone. Is

> > there anything else I should add?

> >

> > After I get these numbers back and get my levels adjusted once again

> > with the Endo I have now I'm getting a new one. I also have

> problems

> > with my GH and she doesn't want to do anything with it. I think

> its

> > best to get this sorted out then move on to that with another

> doctor.

> > Any thoughts on Adult growth hormone deficiency? Is there anyone

> > being treated for this? Anyone know a good doctor in North Jersey?

> >

> > I have to say besides the problems with the doctors this has been

> the

> > best thing I have done in my life. I'm feeling much better, my

> memory

> > is starting to come back, I'm able to get up and move I actually

> > started back at the gym 30 minutes a day something I haven't done

> in

> > over ten years. I feel like I'm starting to get my life back and

> it is

> > great.

> >

> > This has been a great place to get information on this disease; I

> just

> > want to thank you all for being so supportive.

> >

> > Pat

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ok I got some new test results.

TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL (241-827 ng/dl) 145>>>>>>new 722

FREE TESTOSTERONE (50-210pg/ml) 20.8>>>>>>new 158.9

PSA (<4.0 ng/mL) 1.01>>>>>>new 1.37

TSH (.40-5.50 mIU/L) 4.24>>>>>>new 3.73

T4, FREE (.8-1.8 ng/dl) 1.4>>>>>>new 1.2

Meds:

5grams androgel

250ug Ovidrel

150ug Levoxl

I did some research into Ovidrel and found out that 250ug is = 5000+

IU of HCG I’m taking that 2x a week so that’s 10,000 IU per week. It

was very difficult to find the conversion; they don’t publish it on

their website so I found it in a clinical trial for the use of the

medication on 60+ with hypogonadism. This was very interesting but I

only wanted to supplement the T’s with HCG not the inverse!

So I took this data to my Urologist (who’s staff said he uses HCG

augmentation) and he told me he would only change the medication to

Novarel and only for its suggested use for fertility at high dose

levels IM.

In desperation I decided to give my Endocrinologist a second chance

and brought to her the data about Ovidrel and we sat down and talked

about Novarel and she agreed that the dose was off and was happy to

move me to Novarel at a much lower dose of 250 IU she didn’t even give

me an argument about writing the script for the insulin syringes so I

can take it SQ.

I have only been taking the Ovidrel for approx…. one month, I don’t

think this should cause any real issues, does anyone have any

experience in this area?

She also changed my dose of levoxl to 175ug something my GP/Urologist

didn’t even comment on.

I’m a little concerned on where my numbers are going to go now that

I’m changing the HCG, I like the numbers I’m at and have been feeling

much better. I’m happy that my doctor is starting to respect what I

have to say and is working with me on this instead of fighting every

little thing. I can’t believe how hard it is to find a good doctor in

this area.

Thank you all for sharing your information, it has been very, very

helpful to me and my family in trying to take care of this issue.

[Guest guest]

So that's one time an endo was more receptive than a uro, huh? Hey, I

guess it happens. I hope she stays consistent; I've known MDs of

either sex to change their minds on the next visit.

The solid dose of Ovidrel that you found is very interesting to me as

a chemist. If you're sure that they're talking about 250ug

(micrograms) of Ovidrel being equal to 5000 iu's, then if I do my

math right that would make it about 260 times as strong as Novarel

(which I've measured out - 10,000 iu of Novarel weighs about 130 -mg-

and 1mg = 1000ug)

Your T numbers sure came up. This is on Androgel/HCG, right? I think

some body-builders might use 10,000iu HCG/wk but only for a short

time when they cycle. The testes will only put out as much T as

the're capable of. I think there's also a higher than maintainence

dose of HCG if you want to increase fertility, but I don't remember

the numbers off-hand. Personally, I think 10,000iu/wk is a bit of

overkill. I've done probably half that amount and it was just to get

started. I would then settle down to 500iu/da, or 3,500iu/wk. 250iu

is certainly more of a maintainance dose although I don't think you

want to go much lower than that.

My thyroid levels also liked to bounce around the middle range

although when my endo increased my Levoxyl to 175ug, my TSH level

dropped below scale (0.07, same range.) I have to talk to him this

Fri. I think he went a little too far on that one.

Rich

>

> Ok I got some new test results.

>

> TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL (241-827 ng/dl) 145>>>>>>new 722

> FREE TESTOSTERONE (50-210pg/ml) 20.8>>>>>>new 158.9

> PSA (<4.0 ng/mL) 1.01>>>>>>new 1.37

> TSH (.40-5.50 mIU/L) 4.24>>>>>>new 3.73

> T4, FREE (.8-1.8 ng/dl) 1.4>>>>>>new 1.2

>

> Meds:

> 5grams androgel

> 250ug Ovidrel

> 150ug Levoxl

>

> I did some research into Ovidrel and found out that 250ug is = 5000+

> IU of HCG I’m taking that 2x a week so that’s 10,000 IU per

week. It

> was very difficult to find the conversion; they don’t publish it

on

> their website so I found it in a clinical trial for the use of the

> medication on 60+ with hypogonadism. This was very interesting but I

> only wanted to supplement the T’s with HCG not the inverse!

>

> So I took this data to my Urologist (who’s staff said he uses HCG

> augmentation) and he told me he would only change the medication to

> Novarel and only for its suggested use for fertility at high dose

> levels IM.

>

> In desperation I decided to give my Endocrinologist a second chance

> and brought to her the data about Ovidrel and we sat down and talked

> about Novarel and she agreed that the dose was off and was happy to

> move me to Novarel at a much lower dose of 250 IU she didn’t even

give

> me an argument about writing the script for the insulin syringes so

I

> can take it SQ.

>

> I have only been taking the Ovidrel for approx…. one month, I

don’t

> think this should cause any real issues, does anyone have any

> experience in this area?

>

> She also changed my dose of levoxl to 175ug something my

GP/Urologist

> didn’t even comment on.

>

> I’m a little concerned on where my numbers are going to go now

that

> I’m changing the HCG, I like the numbers I’m at and have been

feeling

> much better. I’m happy that my doctor is starting to respect what

I

> have to say and is working with me on this instead of fighting every

> little thing. I can’t believe how hard it is to find a good

doctor in

> this area.

>

> Thank you all for sharing your information, it has been very, very

> helpful to me and my family in trying to take care of this issue.

>

[Guest guest]

Some information for you Rich.

OVIDREL is a preparation of chorionic gonadotrophin hormone produced by

genetically engineered

Chinese hamster ovary (CHO) cells. The physicochemical, immunological, and

biological activities

of recombinant hCG are comparable to those of placental and human pregnancy

urine-derived hCG. Choriogonadotropin alfa stimulates late follicular

maturation and resumption of oocytes meiosis, and initiates rupture of the

pre-ovulatory ovarian follicle.

http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/14/7/1703

A dose of 250 µg (~5000 IU) of recombinant HCG (Ovidrel®; Ares Serono)

http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/profs/datasheet/o/Ovidrelinj.htm

In comparative clinical trials, administration of a dose of 250 micrograms

of Ovidrel was as

effective as 5000 IU or 10,000 IU of urinary-derived hCG for the Assisted

Reproductive Technique (ART) endpoint of number of oocytes retrieved per

patient treated. In

an Ovulation Induction (OI) study, 250 micrograms of Ovidrel was as

effective as 5000 IU of urinary

hCG in inducing final follicular maturation and ovulation. Consequently, the

following dosing regimen

should be applied:

Ovidrel 250ug is equivalent to approximately 6500IU of Profasi and

adjustment to dosage should be in

accord with clinical and biochemical monitoring.

I was taking this 2x a week, I only wanted a supplementation dose of HCG to

keep the boys happy. In my reading I was under the impression that 250IU HCG

would be good for this purpose. Is this weight based? I'm around 330lb and I

don't want to take to much but to little probably wont help either. Does

anyone else use HCG and what is your dose?

On 11/6/06, Rich <caliconine@...> wrote:

>

> So that's one time an endo was more receptive than a uro, huh? Hey, I

> guess it happens. I hope she stays consistent; I've known MDs of

> either sex to change their minds on the next visit.

>

> The solid dose of Ovidrel that you found is very interesting to me as

> a chemist. If you're sure that they're talking about 250ug

> (micrograms) of Ovidrel being equal to 5000 iu's, then if I do my

> math right that would make it about 260 times as strong as Novarel

> (which I've measured out - 10,000 iu of Novarel weighs about 130 -mg-

> and 1mg = 1000ug)

>

> Your T numbers sure came up. This is on Androgel/HCG, right? I think

> some body-builders might use 10,000iu HCG/wk but only for a short

> time when they cycle. The testes will only put out as much T as

> the're capable of. I think there's also a higher than maintainence

> dose of HCG if you want to increase fertility, but I don't remember

> the numbers off-hand. Personally, I think 10,000iu/wk is a bit of

> overkill. I've done probably half that amount and it was just to get

> started. I would then settle down to 500iu/da, or 3,500iu/wk. 250iu

> is certainly more of a maintainance dose although I don't think you

> want to go much lower than that.

>

> My thyroid levels also liked to bounce around the middle range

> although when my endo increased my Levoxyl to 175ug, my TSH level

> dropped below scale (0.07, same range.) I have to talk to him this

> Fri. I think he went a little too far on that one.

> Rich

>

>

> >

> > Ok I got some new test results.

> >

> > TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL (241-827 ng/dl) 145>>>>>>new 722

> > FREE TESTOSTERONE (50-210pg/ml) 20.8>>>>>>new 158.9

> > PSA (<4.0 ng/mL) 1.01>>>>>>new 1.37

> > TSH (.40-5.50 mIU/L) 4.24>>>>>>new 3.73

> > T4, FREE (.8-1.8 ng/dl) 1.4>>>>>>new 1.2

> >

> > Meds:

> > 5grams androgel

> > 250ug Ovidrel

> > 150ug Levoxl

> >

> > I did some research into Ovidrel and found out that 250ug is = 5000+

> > IU of HCG I'm taking that 2x a week so that's 10,000 IU per

> week. It

> > was very difficult to find the conversion; they don't publish it

> on

> > their website so I found it in a clinical trial for the use of the

> > medication on 60+ with hypogonadism. This was very interesting but I

> > only wanted to supplement the T's with HCG not the inverse!

> >

> > So I took this data to my Urologist (who's staff said he uses HCG

> > augmentation) and he told me he would only change the medication to

> > Novarel and only for its suggested use for fertility at high dose

> > levels IM.

> >

> > In desperation I decided to give my Endocrinologist a second chance

> > and brought to her the data about Ovidrel and we sat down and talked

> > about Novarel and she agreed that the dose was off and was happy to

> > move me to Novarel at a much lower dose of 250 IU she didn't even

> give

> > me an argument about writing the script for the insulin syringes so

> I

> > can take it SQ.

> >

> > I have only been taking the Ovidrel for approx…. one month, I

> don't

> > think this should cause any real issues, does anyone have any

> > experience in this area?

> >

> > She also changed my dose of levoxl to 175ug something my

> GP/Urologist

> > didn't even comment on.

> >

> > I'm a little concerned on where my numbers are going to go now

> that

> > I'm changing the HCG, I like the numbers I'm at and have been

> feeling

> > much better. I'm happy that my doctor is starting to respect what

> I

> > have to say and is working with me on this instead of fighting every

> > little thing. I can't believe how hard it is to find a good

> doctor in

> > this area.

> >

> > Thank you all for sharing your information, it has been very, very

> > helpful to me and my family in trying to take care of this issue.

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Pat-

Thanks for the links! The synthetic Ovidrel may be more expensive now

but maybe it will come down in price eventually. They use to get

insulin from horses and other animals but now just about all is

produced by recombinant DNA.

The 2nd reference was especially interesting. It gave half-lives

between IM and sub-q, and the peaks were at 12 to 24hrs.

I was looking at my last post on this and thinking about the

discrepancy between the potency of Ovidrel versus Novarel based on

weight. Although it sounded to me like the Ovidrel was a more

purified form and more potent, I'd like to retract my erroneous

statement that its anything like 260 times more potent. I was going

by weight, which was dumb on my part. A quarter of a milligram of

most anything in reality is hardly more than a very large speck. The

10,000iu Novarel powder in the vial, according to the leaflet in the

box, also contains along with the HCG, 100mg of mannitol and sodium

phosphate for buffering to make it more stable. The 5000iu of Ovidrel

has 30mg sucrose and is also buffered although I'm not sure if the

sodium phosphate buffer in either case is in the solid or the water.

The actual HCG in either case makes up only a small part of the solid.

Rich

> > >

> > > Ok I got some new test results.

> > >

> > > TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL (241-827 ng/dl) 145>>>>>>new 722

> > > FREE TESTOSTERONE (50-210pg/ml) 20.8>>>>>>new 158.9

> > > PSA (<4.0 ng/mL) 1.01>>>>>>new 1.37

> > > TSH (.40-5.50 mIU/L) 4.24>>>>>>new 3.73

> > > T4, FREE (.8-1.8 ng/dl) 1.4>>>>>>new 1.2

> > >

> > > Meds:

> > > 5grams androgel

> > > 250ug Ovidrel

> > > 150ug Levoxl

> > >

> > > I did some research into Ovidrel and found out that 250ug is =

5000+

> > > IU of HCG I'm taking that 2x a week so that's 10,000 IU per

> > week. It

> > > was very difficult to find the conversion; they don't publish it

> > on

> > > their website so I found it in a clinical trial for the use of

the

> > > medication on 60+ with hypogonadism. This was very interesting

but I

> > > only wanted to supplement the T's with HCG not the inverse!

> > >

> > > So I took this data to my Urologist (who's staff said he uses

HCG

> > > augmentation) and he told me he would only change the

medication to

> > > Novarel and only for its suggested use for fertility at high

dose

> > > levels IM.

> > >

> > > In desperation I decided to give my Endocrinologist a second

chance

> > > and brought to her the data about Ovidrel and we sat down and

talked

> > > about Novarel and she agreed that the dose was off and was

happy to

> > > move me to Novarel at a much lower dose of 250 IU she didn't

even

> > give

> > > me an argument about writing the script for the insulin

syringes so

> > I

> > > can take it SQ.

> > >

> > > I have only been taking the Ovidrel for approx…. one month, I

> > don't

> > > think this should cause any real issues, does anyone have any

> > > experience in this area?

> > >

> > > She also changed my dose of levoxl to 175ug something my

> > GP/Urologist

> > > didn't even comment on.

> > >

> > > I'm a little concerned on where my numbers are going to go now

> > that

> > > I'm changing the HCG, I like the numbers I'm at and have been

> > feeling

> > > much better. I'm happy that my doctor is starting to respect

what

> > I

> > > have to say and is working with me on this instead of fighting

every

> > > little thing. I can't believe how hard it is to find a good

> > doctor in

> > > this area.

> > >

> > > Thank you all for sharing your information, it has been very,

very

> > > helpful to me and my family in trying to take care of this

issue.

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>