fertility

[Guest guest]

>

> I know some of you are interested in fertility. A friend of mine with

> a low sperm count received a recommendation for the following product

> from his doctor.

>

> http://www.proxeed.com/

>

> It doesn't appear to require a prescription. I leave it to you to

> evaluate their evidence. The product isn't cheap either but that

> seems to be a common denominator of fertility treatments.

>

> Brad

>

It may interest some of you to know that this is a carnitine product.

Brad

[Guest guest]

It may interest some of you to know that this is a carnitine product.

---

Thanks Brad, this interests me greatly.

I didn't pay much attention to fertlity when researching the benefits

of carnitine. But it makes sense that it could help.

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/101/106475.htm

I'm not sure what is in this product, but I would recommend a high

dose of the cheapest ALC/ALA instead. It would be more cost

effective, more treatment effective, and perhaps much safer if the

fertlity product you refer to lacks the anti-oxident, alpha lipoic

acid (ALA).

[Guest guest]

I found it interesting too and I think you're right, alc/ala would

be a better choice than this. Who knew it could make your more

fertile too? Though, I'm wondering now if I need to be taking L-

carnitine also. Here's the link to the ingredients. -Dan

http://www.proxeed.com/consumer/proxeed/ingred.asp

And, a cut and paste of the same:

" Ingredients exclusively focused on sperm health

The active Ingredients in ProXeed™ include: L-carnitine fumarate,

fructose, acetyl-L-carnitine HCl, and citric acid.

L-carnitine fumarate—is a carrier molecule for medium- and long-

chain fatty acids and is essential in the transportation of these

fatty acids into the mitochondria where they can be utilized for ß-

oxidation. L-carnitine fumarate is a component of both seminal

plasma and sperm cells, and it plays a critical role in sperm

maturation and potential sperm motility

Fructose—is one of the major energy-yielding substances present in

seminal fluid

Acetyl-L-carnitine HCl—is the acetyl ester of L-carnitine and occurs

naturally in the body. This short-chain fatty acid is sufficiently

water soluble to pass freely across the mitochondrial membrane

without a further energy expenditure, and when transesterified to

CoA, it can directly enter the Krebs cycle to liberate energy,

thereby serving as a readily available energy source for sperm

Additionally, acetyl-L-carnitine HCl is important for membrane

stabilization, is the most prominent form of carnitine in sperm,

plays an important role in sperm maturation and metabolism and

provides the primary fuel for sperm motility.

Citric acid—is a key intermediate in the Krebs cycle

The inactive ingredients in ProXeed™ include: mannitol, polyethylene

glycol, artificial flavorings, povidone, and silicone dioxide.

ProXeed™ is designed for long-term administration. Initial results

may be seen in as few as three months; however, ProXeed™ should be

taken for at least six months for optimal results. ProXeed™ should

be taken as long as attempting to conceive.* "

> It may interest some of you to know that this is a carnitine

product.

> ---

>

> Thanks Brad, this interests me greatly.

>

> I didn't pay much attention to fertlity when researching the

benefits

> of carnitine. But it makes sense that it could help.

> http://www.webmd.com/content/article/101/106475.htm

>

> I'm not sure what is in this product, but I would recommend a high

> dose of the cheapest ALC/ALA instead. It would be more cost

> effective, more treatment effective, and perhaps much safer if the

> fertlity product you refer to lacks the anti-oxident, alpha lipoic

> acid (ALA).

>

[Guest guest]

Though, I'm wondering now if I need to be taking L-carnitine also. --

No, it would be a waste of money. Acetyl-l-carnitine (ALC) is the

esther and working form of L-carnitine. (Propionyl-l-carnitine is

another carnitine esther but is not readily available in this

country.) According to the research (and I've sorted through pages of

clinical studies) anything l-carnitine can do, its estherized

versions can do better.

Thank you for sending the labelling info. I was curious as to the

ingredients, but hadn't taken the time to dig around for it.

If you sift the facts from the hype here:

---- L-carnitine fumarate—is a carrier molecule for medium- and long-

chain fatty acids and is essential in the transportation of these

fatty acids into the mitochondria where they can be utilized for ß-

oxidation. -----

This describes the mitochondrial activity of ALL forms of l-

carnitine, including its esther ALC, but they would like you to

believe that this is a unique effect of plain l-carnitine.

The paragraph below describes why ALC is better able to access the

mitochondria than plain l-carnitine.

-----Acetyl-L-carnitine HCl—is the acetyl ester of L-carnitine and

occurs naturally in the body. This short-chain fatty acid is

sufficiently water soluble to pass freely across the mitochondrial

membrane without a further energy expenditure.----

I'm not saying this product wouldn't work. (If enough of it were

taken) Just that it contains products that are either ineffective

(like fructose, a sugar), less effective ( " plain " l-carnitine), and

it is lacking alpha lipoic acid (ALA) which is an important safety

add-on (as well as the fact ALC will improve efficacy).

I haven't checked the price, but willing to bet this product is not

as cost effective as ALC/ALA.

Still it is interesting to watch the " discovery " of carnitine. It is

increasingly showing up with as an ingredient in foods and vitamins

for older humans and pets. (Appropriate I guess since animals tested

it first.)

[Guest guest]

If you poke around the site, you may find a few of the other pages

mildly interesting.

Previously, searching for plc mostly brought up suppliers of the

regular l-carnitine. I think Sigma Tau has recently introduced it

into the US. If earlier shopping efforts failed, you may be able to

find it now. I don't recall where I saw but I believe I saw it at

more than one place.

Brad

> Though, I'm wondering now if I need to be taking L-carnitine also. --

>

> No, it would be a waste of money. Acetyl-l-carnitine (ALC) is the

> esther and working form of L-carnitine. (Propionyl-l-carnitine is

> another carnitine esther but is not readily available in this

> country.) According to the research (and I've sorted through pages of

> clinical studies) anything l-carnitine can do, its estherized

> versions can do better.

>

> Thank you for sending the labelling info. I was curious as to the

> ingredients, but hadn't taken the time to dig around for it.

>

> If you sift the facts from the hype here:

>

> ---- L-carnitine fumarate—is a carrier molecule for medium- and long-

> chain fatty acids and is essential in the transportation of these

> fatty acids into the mitochondria where they can be utilized for ß-

> oxidation. -----

>

> This describes the mitochondrial activity of ALL forms of l-

> carnitine, including its esther ALC, but they would like you to

> believe that this is a unique effect of plain l-carnitine.

>

> The paragraph below describes why ALC is better able to access the

> mitochondria than plain l-carnitine.

>

> -----Acetyl-L-carnitine HCl—is the acetyl ester of L-carnitine and

> occurs naturally in the body. This short-chain fatty acid is

> sufficiently water soluble to pass freely across the mitochondrial

> membrane without a further energy expenditure.----

>

> I'm not saying this product wouldn't work. (If enough of it were

> taken) Just that it contains products that are either ineffective

> (like fructose, a sugar), less effective ( " plain " l-carnitine), and

> it is lacking alpha lipoic acid (ALA) which is an important safety

> add-on (as well as the fact ALC will improve efficacy).

> I haven't checked the price, but willing to bet this product is not

> as cost effective as ALC/ALA.

>

> Still it is interesting to watch the " discovery " of carnitine. It is

> increasingly showing up with as an ingredient in foods and vitamins

> for older humans and pets. (Appropriate I guess since animals tested

> it first.)

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the info, I won't worry about taking any L-carnitine. I

have recently noticed many of the health food people are pushing

pills with ALC/ALA as their secret ingredient, kinda like all the

stuff that has L-arginine. Interesting to watch this happen. -Dan

> Though, I'm wondering now if I need to be taking L-carnitine

also. --

>

> No, it would be a waste of money. Acetyl-l-carnitine (ALC) is the

> esther and working form of L-carnitine. (Propionyl-l-carnitine is

> another carnitine esther but is not readily available in this

> country.) According to the research (and I've sorted through pages

of

> clinical studies) anything l-carnitine can do, its estherized

> versions can do better.

>

> Thank you for sending the labelling info. I was curious as to the

> ingredients, but hadn't taken the time to dig around for it.

>

> If you sift the facts from the hype here:

>

> ---- L-carnitine fumarate—is a carrier molecule for medium- and

long-

> chain fatty acids and is essential in the transportation of these

> fatty acids into the mitochondria where they can be utilized for ß-

> oxidation. -----

>

> This describes the mitochondrial activity of ALL forms of l-

> carnitine, including its esther ALC, but they would like you to

> believe that this is a unique effect of plain l-carnitine.

>

> The paragraph below describes why ALC is better able to access the

> mitochondria than plain l-carnitine.

>

> -----Acetyl-L-carnitine HCl—is the acetyl ester of L-carnitine and

> occurs naturally in the body. This short-chain fatty acid is

> sufficiently water soluble to pass freely across the mitochondrial

> membrane without a further energy expenditure.----

>

> I'm not saying this product wouldn't work. (If enough of it were

> taken) Just that it contains products that are either ineffective

> (like fructose, a sugar), less effective ( " plain " l-carnitine),

and

> it is lacking alpha lipoic acid (ALA) which is an important safety

> add-on (as well as the fact ALC will improve efficacy).

> I haven't checked the price, but willing to bet this product is

not

> as cost effective as ALC/ALA.

>

> Still it is interesting to watch the " discovery " of carnitine. It

is

> increasingly showing up with as an ingredient in foods and

vitamins

> for older humans and pets. (Appropriate I guess since animals

tested

> it first.)

>

[Guest guest]

are all men who are diagnosed Primary Hypogonadal infertile?

My LH levels vary from 4-5 while my T is varies from 350-450 in AM..no taking

anything. FSH is usually around 6..sometimes 7. sperm count is good...but

motility is questionable (a secondary hypoG characteristic).

just curious if im primary or secondary. mri shows nothing. haven't done a

stim test. family dr is not familiar with doing...endo is an idiot.

ur thoughts

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> just curious if im primary or secondary. mri shows nothing. haven't done a

stim test.

family dr is not familiar with doing...endo is an idiot.

>

> ur thoughts

>

Hi Jack

My first thought is for you to get referred to a Teaching Hospital where they

specialise in

Endocrinology of Pituitary and related glands. If, like some guys on this forum,

you wish to

have children then you need a specialist in fertility as well. Rarely will the

fertility specialist

be able to properly treat a patient who is medically ill from endocrine illness

even if they

have enough knowledge and experience to diagnose these are 2 different albeit

related

aspects of endocrinology in a teaching hospital where medics are taught. Which

part of the

USA are you based?

You need a full battery of blood tests and other tests to diagnose what is wrong

especially if

an MRi has not shown a tumour. Those tests then need to be routinely checked to

ensure

your condition stays under control.

Hope this helps?

Kind regards,

On 7 Jun 2006 at 16:15, Jack wrote:

> are all men who are diagnosed Primary Hypogonadal infertile?

>

> My LH levels vary from 4-5 while my T is varies from 350-450 in AM..no

taking anything.

FSH is usually around 6..sometimes 7. sperm count is good...but motility is

questionable (a

secondary hypoG characteristic).

>

> just curious if im primary or secondary. mri shows nothing. haven't done a

stim test.

family dr is not familiar with doing...endo is an idiot.

>

> ur thoughts

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jack this is jack david you know well good to see you back here

and hope things will work for you. next I told you this before we

have similar findings I have been following and comparing your

findings and all so I feel like what peter said depending where you

live I think you should check with some those teaching hospital

where they have many heads working on one problem if you need

referal just ask me I can get you a damn good doc/proffesor/repro

specialist/urologist/male fertilty doc that is one too many before

his name trust me he is good doctor.

>

> > just curious if im primary or secondary. mri shows nothing.

haven't done a stim test.

> family dr is not familiar with doing...endo is an idiot.

> >

> > ur thoughts

> >

>

> Hi Jack

>

> My first thought is for you to get referred to a Teaching Hospital

where they specialise in

> Endocrinology of Pituitary and related glands. If, like some guys

on this forum, you wish to

> have children then you need a specialist in fertility as well.

Rarely will the fertility specialist

> be able to properly treat a patient who is medically ill from

endocrine illness even if they

> have enough knowledge and experience to diagnose these are 2

different albeit related

> aspects of endocrinology in a teaching hospital where medics are

taught. Which part of the

> USA are you based?

>

> You need a full battery of blood tests and other tests to diagnose

what is wrong especially if

> an MRi has not shown a tumour. Those tests then need to be

routinely checked to ensure

> your condition stays under control.

>

> Hope this helps?

>

> Kind regards,

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> On 7 Jun 2006 at 16:15, Jack wrote:

>

> > are all men who are diagnosed Primary Hypogonadal infertile?

> >

> > My LH levels vary from 4-5 while my T is varies from 350-450

in AM..no taking anything.

> FSH is usually around 6..sometimes 7. sperm count is good...but

motility is questionable (a

> secondary hypoG characteristic).

> >

> > just curious if im primary or secondary. mri shows nothing.

haven't done a stim test.

> family dr is not familiar with doing...endo is an idiot.

> >

> > ur thoughts

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

38 yr old w/secondary hypogonadism, currently treated w/topical t-gel

twice daily, i have been on the gel for approx 10 yrs...any chance

with treatment change to increase chance of fertility?

[Guest guest]

Welcome - same age as me and for the most part, same situation.

You'll want to post some numbers for us to see across the boards (T,

Free T, SBGH, LH, FSH, Semen Analysis, etc.) for more help.

How do you feel?? Do you feel as though your second. hypogon. symptoms

are much improved?? Who is caring for you - repoductive endo, GP,

urologist, etc.???

Most endos. that you speak with will explore HCG with you first and

then perhaps Clomid, as both increase fertility capabilities in men.

Have you tried either of these?

Blessings,

Bill

>

> 38 yr old w/secondary hypogonadism, currently treated w/topical t-

gel

> twice daily, i have been on the gel for approx 10 yrs...any chance

> with treatment change to increase chance of fertility?

>

[Guest guest]

It is possable I was on TRT for 23 yrs and told I am primary my testis got dam

small like the size of small grapes. I got my Dr. to let me try HCG and get off

the gels I started on 100mgs of Depo T shots every week and did 500 IU's of HCG

3 x's a week. After the 15th shot of HCG my test levels doubled so I am not

primary but secondary. Now 9 months later I do my T shots every 3 days 50mgs

and 250 IU's of HCG the 2 days each in between the T. shots. My Testis are back

to what they were when I was in my 20's. I keep my E2 down better doing shots

every 3 days. Have you ever had your Estradiol E2 checked need to keep this

down if you want a good libido. I am 63 so don't feel any need to do just HCG

but in your case yes get off the gels and try HCG. Start at 100 IU's everyday

don't let a Dr. give you more then 500 IU's in any one day doing more can bury

out your testis and make you primary. So if you keep your E2 down between 10 to

30 best at 20 and do HCG get a test

and see what happens. Try to find a Dr. that is up on the new cutting edge

ways of TRT.

Phil

kyhillbillylilly <kyhillbillylilly@...> wrote:

38 yr old w/secondary hypogonadism, currently treated w/topical t-gel

twice daily, i have been on the gel for approx 10 yrs...any chance

with treatment change to increase chance of fertility?

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 02:55:29 -0000, you wrote:

>38 yr old w/secondary hypogonadism, currently treated w/topical t-gel

>twice daily, i have been on the gel for approx 10 yrs...any chance

>with treatment change to increase chance of fertility?

Yes. You may need to quit TRT. They should try a Clomid stimulation

test and/or HCG to see if the balls will kick into gear.

HCG can work with TRT .

-----

" Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the

power to make you commit atrocities. " - Voltaire

[Guest guest]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I know you all know the implications of

this shit hand dealt. Following will be some numbers from 9/17/92 the first

initial analysis prior to treatment. That's right twenty three years old before

diagnosis, I guess divorced parents were self involved? T-4..9.9 mcg/dl

(total) T-3 uptake 31.0% Thyroid stimulating hormone 0.6 Cortisol total 15.0

T Total <20L Human Growth Hormone <1.5 ng/ml FSH 0.17L u/l

Luteinizing Hormone (s) 0.20 U/L And even Chromosome analysis 46,XY I have

never had a semen analysis being as I have been married twice with no children.

I see no need. My libido is as much as often as I can. I am 38 yrs old 5'11

and 195 lbs. The last and only endo I seen said I was obese, had a supple

neck..sorry really pissed me off. I never went to my follow up. My Urologist

treats the end result. The first Urologist seemed genuinely compassionate to

the problem, He treatd me w/Profasi, or Prolactin?? 3

times a wk. I can't remember which. Employment situations forced a premature

end to our relationship. I'm sorry for the length of this and I am truly

grateful for all of the responses.

williamb11 <no_reply > wrote:

Welcome - same age as me and for the most part, same situation.

You'll want to post some numbers for us to see across the boards (T,

Free T, SBGH, LH, FSH, Semen Analysis, etc.) for more help.

How do you feel?? Do you feel as though your second. hypogon. symptoms

are much improved?? Who is caring for you - repoductive endo, GP,

urologist, etc.???

Most endos. that you speak with will explore HCG with you first and

then perhaps Clomid, as both increase fertility capabilities in men.

Have you tried either of these?

Blessings,

Bill

>

> 38 yr old w/secondary hypogonadism, currently treated w/topical t-

gel

> twice daily, i have been on the gel for approx 10 yrs...any chance

> with treatment change to increase chance of fertility?

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

this is great info but I want to say that I sure wish I knew about Armour and

especially especially REALLY iodine/iodide thirty years ago. I was infertile

from the age of 24 on due to partial thyroidectomy and no meds b/c of TSH test.

and ya know, this is not rocket science, it is old information.

Gracia

The best thing you can do to avoid fertility problems is avoid taking birth

control pills or

that birth control that gets inserted under the skin. They can stop ovulation

for up to 2

years. If you have to use something use condoms.

People here can help you sort out your thyroid stuff.

You can buy lutenizing hormone strips (urine test) on -line to check for when

you are

starting to ovulate. As soon as you see you are starting to ovulate-have sex.

Some women

ovulate on day 5 or 6 ! some day 14. The strips can tell you if you are

ovulating at all.

I just took a course on infertility that is being treated homeopathically. Out

of 200 cases,

175 got pregnant! And these were hard core previous IVF cases (with no

mechanical

issues-like tubes being scarred shut). The cases were looked at from the angle

of " never

been well since suppression of ovulation by the Pill. "

Good luck!

---

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