Re: Got back from the Endo

October 23, 2006

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 19:36:22 -0000, you wrote:

>Well after 2 months since my blood work I finally got my follow up

>with my Endo. He is going to have me give myself injections at home

>of 200mg once every two weeks. I hope this will get my numbers out of

>low 100's and get me somewhere in the 500-600 range. Plus today is my

>38 birthday.

The preferred practice is 100 mg every week. The two weeks was a

balance of convenience vs. efficacy when the patient had to go to the

doctors office to get the shot. If you're doing them yourself I don't

see any reason not to do them weekly.

You can read about it in the treatment guidelines by the AACE:

http://www.aace.com/pub/pdf/guidelines/hypogonadism.pdf

Share them with your doctor.

________________

" You never need an argument against the use of violence, you need an

argument for it. " Noam Chomsky

October 23, 2006

HAPPY BIRTHDAY - Consider 100 mg every 7 days - it is proven to be a much better

regiment.

Arkansas

ogarchamplin <gripperm@...> wrote:

Well after 2 months since my blood work I finally got my follow up

with my Endo. He is going to have me give myself injections at home

of 200mg once every two weeks. I hope this will get my numbers out of

low 100's and get me somewhere in the 500-600 range. Plus today is my

38 birthday.

---------------------------------

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October 23, 2006

Hi,

Yes more frequent than every 2 weeks is important. I heard Dr. Shippen

is now promoting 2 shots per week of about 50 mg each.

One of the benefits of more frequent injections is to avoid the body

seeing a sudden surge of T. When the hormone regulation system in the

body sees more T that it thinks is safe or normal, it reacts by

converting some T to E2. This increase in E2 can be significant enough

to off set the benefits expected from TRT.

Some men already suffer from high E2 and we are hearing more about

that being a problem not related to TRT injections.

Not an expert on sources of E2.

ernestnolan

>

> Well after 2 months since my blood work I finally got my follow up

> with my Endo. He is going to have me give myself injections at home

> of 200mg once every two weeks. I hope this will get my numbers out of

> low 100's and get me somewhere in the 500-600 range. Plus today is my

> 38 birthday.

>

October 23, 2006

I agree as well that a dose of 100mg T/week is better. You might try

the 200mg/2wk dose if only to satify your Dr., but you said in an

earlier post that with a monthly injection, you felt good the first

week but lousy the other three weeks. The lower dose of 100mg/week

helps smooth that out.

There's also the issue of blood tests, which I'm sure your Dr. will

want to run. If you're on the 200mg/two week regimen, when do you

have the blood drawn for the tests? If you wait until the two weeks

are up, your T levels (based on your prior history) are probably

going to be too low. That may give the false impression that you're

not injecting enough. On the other hand, the T levels usually peak

after a day or two so a dose of 200mg will probably show a high

level, maybe too high. But if you do a blood test then, it will only

tell you how high it can get and may give the impression that you

don't need a dose of 200mg but something less - if you get my drift.

I suppose testing after the first week would be a little more

meaningful as far as numbers go. At any rate, -anythings- got to be

better than those monthly injections, as you found out (and same

here.)

Rich

>

> Well after 2 months since my blood work I finally got my follow up

> with my Endo. He is going to have me give myself injections at home

> of 200mg once every two weeks. I hope this will get my numbers out

of

> low 100's and get me somewhere in the 500-600 range. Plus today is

my

> 38 birthday.

>

October 23, 2006

I go for my first set of blood work in 90 days. He wants me to go on

the day that I should be taking a shot, so it will be 14 days since my

last shot when I get my blood work. I go this Friday to the Endo so

he can show my wife how to give me the shot. All I know is the script

said 21 gauge needle extra long.

> >

> > Well after 2 months since my blood work I finally got my follow up

> > with my Endo. He is going to have me give myself injections at home

> > of 200mg once every two weeks. I hope this will get my numbers out

> of

> > low 100's and get me somewhere in the 500-600 range. Plus today is

> my

> > 38 birthday.

> >

>

October 24, 2006

That schedule sounds familiar. I had some arguments once about dosing

with a woman MD who kept saying over and over " It's standard

protocol, established protocol... " ) " It " , being 200mg T.cyp every two

weeks over a period of three months with testing after the second

month on the day before injecting - and, not 100mg/week. You may as

well give it a try. At least this way you'd have something to compare

later results with (which is better than having -no- proof if

200mg/2wk would have ever worked or not, if you jumped straight to

100mg/week.)

I guess the 3 month period is for the system to stabilize, although I

would'nt think it would take that long but what do I know. Take a

look in the " Files " section of this board for an article titled " the

androgen-deficient male.pdf " (its a ways down the list.) It has some

nice graphs for T, DHT, bio-T and Estradiol over a two week (14day)

period. If you're dragging after 2 weeks, its not your imagination.

Someone did a study on it.

Rich

(BTW, a 21G seems a bit on the large side. Besides making a bigger

hole, the temptation is to shoot in the T oil too fast. Please tell

your wife to take her time injecting the oil. Personally I would opt

more for the thinner 23G, 1.5inch needle for the glutes. Its also

possible to use a 25G although its much slower due to the fineness of

the needle.)

> > >

> > > Well after 2 months since my blood work I finally got my follow

up

> > > with my Endo. He is going to have me give myself injections at

home

> > > of 200mg once every two weeks. I hope this will get my numbers

out

> > of

> > > low 100's and get me somewhere in the 500-600 range. Plus

today is

> > my

> > > 38 birthday.

> > >

> >

>

October 24, 2006

Sorry I'm a bit late on the happy birthday!

I use a 23 needle, not bad. I'm no professional and I feel the difference, but a

shot is a good way to go if you take more than 200 MG.

I realized, I must take between 3 and half, and 4 MG to feel no side effects

especially the depression side effects.

I tried 200MG, just so I wouldn't have to come in every month and it didn't work

out that well.

I didn't know you would test for DHT. I think I will test mine and find what's

normal and abnormal. I don't feel any difference taking DIM. It blows a bit.

Rich <caliconine@...> wrote: That schedule sounds familiar. I had some

arguments once about dosing

with a woman MD who kept saying over and over " It's standard

protocol, established protocol... " ) " It " , being 200mg T.cyp every two

weeks over a period of three months with testing after the second

month on the day before injecting - and, not 100mg/week. You may as

well give it a try. At least this way you'd have something to compare

later results with (which is better than having -no- proof if

200mg/2wk would have ever worked or not, if you jumped straight to

100mg/week.)

I guess the 3 month period is for the system to stabilize, although I

would'nt think it would take that long but what do I know. Take a

look in the " Files " section of this board for an article titled " the

androgen-deficient male.pdf " (its a ways down the list.) It has some

nice graphs for T, DHT, bio-T and Estradiol over a two week (14day)

period. If you're dragging after 2 weeks, its not your imagination.

Someone did a study on it.

Rich

(BTW, a 21G seems a bit on the large side. Besides making a bigger

hole, the temptation is to shoot in the T oil too fast. Please tell

your wife to take her time injecting the oil. Personally I would opt

more for the thinner 23G, 1.5inch needle for the glutes. Its also

possible to use a 25G although its much slower due to the fineness of

the needle.)

> > >

> > > Well after 2 months since my blood work I finally got my follow

up

> > > with my Endo. He is going to have me give myself injections at

home

> > > of 200mg once every two weeks. I hope this will get my numbers

out

> > of

> > > low 100's and get me somewhere in the 500-600 range. Plus

today is

> > my

> > > 38 birthday.

> > >

> >

>

October 24, 2006

When we go in on Friday we are going to ask " wouldn't it make more

sense to do 100 mg a week to be more stable than 200mg every two

weeks? " I figure it cant hurt to ask. Just got back from Walgreens

and my insurance does not cover it. They covered the Gel and the

Patch but a big no to the injections. So its going to cost me about

$120.00 a month. But to keep from feeling like hell it is well worth it.

> > > >

> > > > Well after 2 months since my blood work I finally got my follow

> up

> > > > with my Endo. He is going to have me give myself injections at

> home

> > > > of 200mg once every two weeks. I hope this will get my numbers

> out

> > > of

> > > > low 100's and get me somewhere in the 500-600 range. Plus

> today is

> > > my

> > > > 38 birthday.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

October 25, 2006

>

> When we go in on Friday we are going to ask " wouldn't it make more

> sense to do 100 mg a week to be more stable than 200mg every two

> weeks? " I figure it cant hurt to ask. Just got back from Walgreens

> and my insurance does not cover it. They covered the Gel and the

> Patch but a big no to the injections. So its going to cost me about

> $120.00 a month. But to keep from feeling like hell it is well

worth it.

>

The ~$120 is probably for a vial. A vial should last more than one

month. A compounding pharmacy sells me a 10ml vial of injectible

testosterone for approx $35.

Brad

October 25, 2006

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 23:37:13 -0000, you wrote:

>When we go in on Friday we are going to ask " wouldn't it make more

>sense to do 100 mg a week to be more stable than 200mg every two

>weeks? " I figure it cant hurt to ask. Just got back from Walgreens

>and my insurance does not cover it. They covered the Gel and the

>Patch but a big no to the injections. So its going to cost me about

>$120.00 a month. But to keep from feeling like hell it is well worth it.

If I were you I would challenge this. If they accept the Gel they

accept its medically necessary. If the gel is not working for you they

owe it to you to find a therapy that does. Also $120 a month seems

high that's enough to buy a vial that should cover about 10 shots.

When you talk to your insurance company you might tell them that shots

cost about 10 to 15% of what gel costs. Androgel ran me about $1,800 a

year, while vials for shots are about $100 for over two months.

Weren't you talking about self administering? Then it's a simple

pharmacy issue the same as gel. You need to fight this. Not just for

yourself but for others who need shots and can't afford to pay when

the company lies to them.

My suggestion would be that you challenge the coverage issue. That you

also write your insurance commissioner (assuming you are in the

states). And complain. Document the medical necessity of the treatment

with a note from the Doc, document costs, and insist on coverage.

It's best when dealing with insurance companies to put everything in

writing. And insist that all replies be in writing. They work very

hard to do as much as they can with no paper trail. In my experience

they routinely and intentionally and knowingly cheat people to keep

profits up. A relative of mine worked with a former coverage expert

who said in her company they were instructed to throw out every third

claim letter without even opening it. They pretended they never

received them.

For this reason I always put everything I do with insurance companies

in writing and send it certified mail with return receipt requested.

They then have to sign for it and I get a card back with their

signature that I staple to the file copy of the letter that I keep. It

focuses their attention marvelously. My letters always demand that any

response be in writing. They still try to duck that and do as much by

phone as they can. I insist for it in writing when they call though.

It also creates the fear you are dealing with a lawyer or at least

have a file that a lawyer could use. They generally fly right after

these letters.

My insurance company has evidently put a note in my file and they have

stopped their abuses when dealing with me. Every year I used to get

three or four random charges that had no explanation. When I called

they would offer three or four possible explanations, but could never

definitively tell me what I was being charged for. They dropped the

charge altogether. And the excuses were transparent on the spot

creations. When I went to the insurance commissioner they instantly

dropped all of these, corrected a number of over billings and have

stopped most of their bad practices with me. I also got massive over

billings. One item they charged me $250 for. I sent them a page from

the net where I could buy this directly for less than $50 and I asked

them to justify the charge. They dropped it altogether.

Personally I think in the US we owe it to the larger community to call

them on their actions and correct as much of the system as we can.

________________

" You never need an argument against the use of violence, you need an

argument for it. " Noam Chomsky

October 25, 2006

> >

>

> The ~$120 is probably for a vial. A vial should last more than one

> month. A compounding pharmacy sells me a 10ml vial of injectible

> testosterone for approx $35.

>

> Brad

>

OK we got it figured out. I called the pharmacist and he said it is

$93.50 for the vial which is 5mls and I will use 1ml a shot so I get 5

doses for $93.50. The needles are $9.99. so in the end since I am

taking a shot once every two weeks I will get 2.5 months out of each

script so that comes to about $10.35 a shot or $21.00 a month which is

alot les then what the AndrolGel was costing me so now I am happy.

Now if I can just convince him to switch me to 100mg every week I will

be happy. Question would the Endo know if I took .5ml shot once a

week instead of 1.0ml once every two weeks? I would not be using any

more T then he perscribced just spread out more?

October 25, 2006

> OK we got it figured out. I called the pharmacist and he said it is

> $93.50 for the vial which is 5mls and I will use 1ml a shot so I get 5

> doses for $93.50. The needles are $9.99. so in the end since I am

> taking a shot once every two weeks I will get 2.5 months out of each

> script so that comes to about $10.35 a shot or $21.00 a month which is

> alot les then what the AndrolGel was costing me so now I am happy.

> Now if I can just convince him to switch me to 100mg every week I will

> be happy.

I'm not sure if $93.50 for a 5 ml vial is that much of a bargain. I

checked Walgreen Online and they sell a -10-ml vial for $131.99.

Probably not a bad price for the needles, depending on how many you get

in a pack. I usually get needles and syringes on line.

> Question would the Endo know if I took .5ml shot once a

> week instead of 1.0ml once every two weeks? I would not be using any

> more T then he perscribced just spread out more?

Ha! Yeah, your levels would be too stable (just kidding.) The tricky

part will be the blood tests, they might give you away. You might

strike a bargain with him and say you'll try the 200mg/2wk but if you

start dragging after 2 weeks you'll switch to 100mg/wk. I dunno, I've

always(well, usually)tried to be forthright with a Dr. unless some med

was killing me with its side effects and I'd quit them myself, but at

least I'd try them once. Maybe you're worried about nothing and he will

be amenable to a different dose.

Rich

October 25, 2006

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 02:30:58 -0000, you wrote:

>

>Subject: Re: Got back from the Endo

>From: " ogarchamplin " <gripperm@...>

>Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 02:30:58 -0000

>

>> >

>>

>> The ~$120 is probably for a vial. A vial should last more than one

>> month. A compounding pharmacy sells me a 10ml vial of injectible

>> testosterone for approx $35.

>>

>> Brad

>>

>

>OK we got it figured out. I called the pharmacist and he said it is

>$93.50 for the vial which is 5mls and I will use 1ml a shot so I get 5

>doses for $93.50. The needles are $9.99. so in the end since I am

>taking a shot once every two weeks I will get 2.5 months out of each

>script so that comes to about $10.35 a shot or $21.00 a month which is

> alot les then what the AndrolGel was costing me so now I am happy.

>Now if I can just convince him to switch me to 100mg every week I will

>be happy. Question would the Endo know if I took .5ml shot once a

>week instead of 1.0ml once every two weeks? I would not be using any

>more T then he perscribced just spread out more?

Share the AACE guidelines with him. They make clear the preferred dose

is once ever 7 to 10 days . 14 was a convenience measure for people

who have to come to see the Dr. for the shot.

________________

" You never need an argument against the use of violence, you need an

argument for it. " Noam Chomsky

October 25, 2006

-Well I go to a Pharmacy called Happy Harrys that was just bought by

Walgreens so I just went to Walgreens online and you are right. Plus

they also have this

TESTOSTERONE CYP 200MG/ML 10ML

Brand Name Equivalent:

DEPO-TESTOSTERONE 200MG/ML 10ML

10 ML 30 ML

TESTOSTERONE CYP 200MG/ML 10ML $106.99 $320.89

Which I assume is a Generic? But to get a 10ML for $106.99 would be

great. My pharmacist said I am getting something called ethanate???

I am sorry for being so stupid and asking so many questions. How do

you order online?

>

> I'm not sure if $93.50 for a 5 ml vial is that much of a bargain. I

> checked Walgreen Online and they sell a -10-ml vial for $131.99.

> Probably not a bad price for the needles, depending on how many you get

> in a pack. I usually get needles and syringes on line.

>

> > Question would the Endo know if I took .5ml shot once a

> > week instead of 1.0ml once every two weeks? I would not be using any

> > more T then he perscribced just spread out more?

>

> Ha! Yeah, your levels would be too stable (just kidding.) The tricky

> part will be the blood tests, they might give you away. You might

> strike a bargain with him and say you'll try the 200mg/2wk but if you

> start dragging after 2 weeks you'll switch to 100mg/wk. I dunno, I've

> always(well, usually)tried to be forthright with a Dr. unless some med

> was killing me with its side effects and I'd quit them myself, but at

> least I'd try them once. Maybe you're worried about nothing and he will

> be amenable to a different dose.

> Rich

>

October 25, 2006

I buy a 100 unit count of needles (22 guage) for about $15.00 on line at

Drugstore.com. Which is owned by RiteAid Corporation.

Rich <caliconine@...> wrote:

> OK we got it figured out. I called the pharmacist and he said it is

> $93.50 for the vial which is 5mls and I will use 1ml a shot so I get 5

> doses for $93.50. The needles are $9.99. so in the end since I am

> taking a shot once every two weeks I will get 2.5 months out of each

> script so that comes to about $10.35 a shot or $21.00 a month which is

> alot les then what the AndrolGel was costing me so now I am happy.

> Now if I can just convince him to switch me to 100mg every week I will

> be happy.

I'm not sure if $93.50 for a 5 ml vial is that much of a bargain. I

checked Walgreen Online and they sell a -10-ml vial for $131.99.

Probably not a bad price for the needles, depending on how many you get

in a pack. I usually get needles and syringes on line.

> Question would the Endo know if I took .5ml shot once a

> week instead of 1.0ml once every two weeks? I would not be using any

> more T then he perscribced just spread out more?

Ha! Yeah, your levels would be too stable (just kidding.) The tricky

part will be the blood tests, they might give you away. You might

strike a bargain with him and say you'll try the 200mg/2wk but if you

start dragging after 2 weeks you'll switch to 100mg/wk. I dunno, I've

always(well, usually)tried to be forthright with a Dr. unless some med

was killing me with its side effects and I'd quit them myself, but at

least I'd try them once. Maybe you're worried about nothing and he will

be amenable to a different dose.

Rich

October 26, 2006

I checked my vial and its the one that says " Testosterone Cyp " which

is the cypionate ester. Mfg by . I don't know which one he was

referring to as the ethanate,I'd guess the one that simply says " Depo

Testosterone. " I assume mine is the last one with the prices. Funny,

I never really looked before, I assume they were all named " -Depo-

Testosterone " I wonder if my insurance set it up that way. Anyway, I

haven't actually ordered from Walgreens online, I just use their

website as a price guide. I wouldn't think its too hard to set up an

account there. Are you saying that Happy Harrys/Walgreen " brick and

mortar " store charges a lot more than the on-line Walgreens?

(One place I did order on line a few years ago was from a website in

the US named " Women's International Pharmacy " . I think they're based

in Wisconsin. They were a source recomended in the Alt-Support-

Impotence group. They are legit, have fast service and you need a

script, but I can't remember how to find their price lists. Maybe you

have to call them these days to find out. I believe they also do some

compounding pharmacy for special orders. Just an option.)

Rich

>

> -Well I go to a Pharmacy called Happy Harrys that was just bought by

> Walgreens so I just went to Walgreens online and you are right.

Plus

> they also have this

>

> TESTOSTERONE CYP 200MG/ML 10ML

>

> Brand Name Equivalent:

> DEPO-TESTOSTERONE 200MG/ML 10ML

>

> 10 ML 30 ML

> TESTOSTERONE CYP 200MG/ML 10ML $106.99 $320.89

>

> Which I assume is a Generic? But to get a 10ML for $106.99 would be

> great. My pharmacist said I am getting something called

ethanate???

> I am sorry for being so stupid and asking so many questions. How do

> you order online?

> >

> > I'm not sure if $93.50 for a 5 ml vial is that much of a bargain.

I

> > checked Walgreen Online and they sell a -10-ml vial for $131.99.

> > Probably not a bad price for the needles, depending on how many

you get

> > in a pack. I usually get needles and syringes on line.

> >

> > > Question would the Endo know if I took .5ml shot once a

> > > week instead of 1.0ml once every two weeks? I would not be

using any

> > > more T then he perscribced just spread out more?

> >

> > Ha! Yeah, your levels would be too stable (just kidding.) The

tricky

> > part will be the blood tests, they might give you away. You might

> > strike a bargain with him and say you'll try the 200mg/2wk but if

you

> > start dragging after 2 weeks you'll switch to 100mg/wk. I dunno,

I've

> > always(well, usually)tried to be forthright with a Dr. unless

some med

> > was killing me with its side effects and I'd quit them myself,

but at

> > least I'd try them once. Maybe you're worried about nothing and

he will

> > be amenable to a different dose.

> > Rich

> >

>

October 26, 2006

I also take that brand of T. I'm confused a bit. I understand your insurance not

wanting to pay for this kind of T, but if you can get a script, why are you

ordering online? If you are willing to pay about 120 per month, wouldn't it be

easier to have some where local were you would normally go to get a script

filled, to just order the T and you just pay out of pocket, which should be

about the same amount online? I would rather do business with a safe place to

order from locally, than some company online.

Rich <caliconine@...> wrote: I checked my vial and its the one that says

" Testosterone Cyp " which