Re: Androgel Failure, Injections -- Questions and Ideas

[Guest guest]

Trannyboy!!!

 

  I don't remember when I first loved your posts but thank you.    I love it

when you have to pipe up and get pushed over the edge.  (not that it should

happen) BUT WHEN YOU ARE YOU SPEAK VOLUMES!!!

 

You shower me with experience and insight. My first post was heal my

perspective.   That is what you do!   You cover the fulness and don't leave us

without considering all the options.

 

Thank You

Re: Androgel Failure, Injections -- Questions and Ideas

Okay I have to pipe up. First sky I am sorry about your experiences, I

know if you had asked me 2 days ago I would be agreeing with you but I

have finally been pushed over the edge. I am now self medicating with

topical hydrocortisone and it feels like my brain is on for the first

time in weeks and haven't been bedridden or stuck in the bath. F*ck

the doctors, their only use is writing scripts, labs, being an

outsider with knowledge you might not have. Even if we are opposed we

shouldn't surrender, the only way out is through it. If doctors won't

preform the only useful things then I will find another way.

In terms of your options of HRT, read on. I am on and loving pellets,

so that is my bias.

Oral- You can either cause a 17-alpha-methyl alteration to make the

liver ignore it and likewise kill your liver. Alternatively the

testosterone undecanoate rely on a very unstable route of adsorption

through the lymph system. This only works with high fat meals taken

with the drug, if not it goes to the liver and is deactivated and

possibly harms the liver. More info can be found here but suffice to

say this technology is not new and has been used in other T products

with limited success. The drug is available in Canada and Europe;

theoretically could be imported..

http://www.bodybuil ding.com/ fun/catandriol. htm

A mix of oral and topical is the mucus membrane patch or sublingual

drops. You may find good success with compounded drops but it requires

repeat dosing and care not to swallow it. I wouldn't recommend the

mucus membrane patch because it doesn't allow any dosage changes, may

be swallowed, doesn't stay on well and causes irritation in some. It

is expensive and I believe it can be found in most countries but don't

know for sure. I know little about the conversions with these methods.

Injections may be right for you but I am not comfortable making any

judgments here. You would do best with a product made with PLGA

microspheres that is being researched. It is the only chance of long

term injections currently on the horizon. The other mixed esters and

undecanoate is able to maintain levels at best for 6-8 weeks and often

less with significant highs and lows throughout. However if you can

handle the swings the current options are the esters and that might

theoretically lower your risks. If you chose injections pay attention

to what ester is used i.e. longer ones that is your guide to longer

lifetimes in the body.

Topical options would be an immediate switch to the 10% cream (not

versa gel) formulation. Androgel's makers shot themselves in the foot

with alcohol and the 1% formulation. That caused the main problems

with their product. I couldn't breath through the fumes. Then remember

the more vascular the better absorption. Same goes for thinner skin.

So neck, behind ears, armpits, elbow, wrists, groin, back of knees and

genitals. Take care with genitals may cause elevated PSA, prostate

cancer risk, BPH, urinary problems etc. It must be covered by clothing

in day to day life and you must be willing to shave the hair off the

area. The other options would be an occlusive dressing like tegaderm

over the area which would increase absorption.

Also while most formulations use pure crystallized testosterone, you

may benefit from using an esterfied testosterone to make it last

longer in your system. I would imagine propionate with its 3 day life

would make the topical levels extremely stable; just a personal

opinion because the swings killed me. I was so low by the next day on

androgel that I couldn't remember to put it on. If however you need

the cyclic nature of base testosterone then feel free to use it. So to

recap give up the androgel and switch to 10% testosterone base or

propionate cream and rub a dab on your inner and upper thigh adding

more until you feel right; then get tested after 3 days for base and a

week for propionate. Follow up consists of the doing that for as long

as it works.. If you decide to try all of these options at once you

should start with a very small amount and work up dosing no more then

every 8 hours. You are going to get some very fast absorption that

way. Phil or one of the doctors what happens if you adjust the

androgens too rapidly?

Pellets is your last option. I love pellets but they do have a risk of

infection especially if not made and implanted under strict

conditions. It isn't just infections where the pellets face problems.

If you implant more then two they rub against each and the tissue;

three or more will cause buckling, breaking and overlapping with the

same damage causing an inflammatory process that can cause a rejection

process both bad things. They also don't encapsulate like other

implants in the body and migrate. These factors are very well

understood in the modification community. They need to be located in

an area where they can be felt and is vascular fatty area. They aren't

easily adjusted and require minor surgery for implanting and removal.

Currently it is hard to get true custom pellets however maybe you have

a good compounder. We would also do well to consider enclosing the

implants in a soft silicone shell to eliminate the edges. Testicle

implants have been forwarded as a good option allowing a lengthly

lifetime of 5 years in some cases. Since the surface area is

controlled the dosage is also controlled so you would do best to

determine your correct dosage prior to going to advanced options. It

would eliminate the swings in serum levels that even pellets despite

their lifetime have at the beginning and end.

They respond to temperature so if you do anything to change your

temperature that will effect how much you get. This means a lot

because it mimics the natural swings of the testicles. Through the

overall swings are quite small. I like them and I this is by far the

best method though I haven't tried the oral, sublingual or mucus

membrane patch.

The final point I would like to make is there are very good body

modification artists who have been doing implants only for years with

much better success then many of the studied implanters. They aren't

nearly as expensive as doctors with a lot more knowledge to boot. They

also might be found while a doctor with experience can't be. Be very

careful who you pick. If you don't know what is right then you might

be very wrong. I am a medic and can identify poor surgical technique

and sterile environment, you make your own call.

trannyboy

[Guest guest]

I forgot to mention that the skin must be cleaned properly prior to

all topical measures because toxins can be absorbed with the

testosterone and the product leaves a residue that interferes with

absorption. Rinse all soap residue off as this can cause increases and

decreases in dosage. Occlusive dressing may increase potential for

irritation with androgel. Saran wrap and tape can be a cheap occlusive

dressing but may leach chemicals or make noise. If you find the

occlusive dressing isn't sticking let the area air dry a bit before

applying and use larger dressings. You must have a border of

non-affected skin at least 3/4 of an inch around or it won't stick.

For the gentleman who proposed the question of which method, I would

recommend the following in order of likely success if my previous post

is too long. Topical with changes, sublingual drops, pellets, mixed

esters or nebido.

the feet might be a good spot but I am not certain of that. I

would consider a trial to see if it offers you benefits. Stay away

from the sole of your feet and you should be fine. Thank you for your

complements.

trannyboy

[Guest guest]

I feel the need to say this don't rub in Androgel spread it around I did my

upper arms and shoulders and down my back as far as I could reach then let it

dry from wet.

Now doing Testim you spread it around the same as above but you rub it in well.

I used a hair trimmer on my upper arms and shoulders to keep the hair down. I

get this trimmer at Wall Greens it cost about $10.00 in the as seen on TV

section it is very small like the size of a long lip stick this cuts the hair

not you and short. I had no problems putting the gels on my upper arms and

shoulders. I did this so my wife would not get any on her when we sleep I wore

a T shirt to bed.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Verily Light <verilylight@...>

> Subject: Re: Re: Androgel Failure, Injections -- Questions

and Ideas

>

> Date: Tuesday, October 14, 2008, 9:13 PM

> ,

>  

>   Tests for me put me in the upper 1/3.  I  doubled my

> labs.   I will test again in  2 weeks to see if this

> truly consistent with my body.  Phil taught me to have 3-4

> consistent months of testing..     I do not apply to the

> shoulders at all.    Hairy parts are gone.   Since I

> have hypo and am bald.   I deleted hair elsewhere.  

> This could be a positive factor in absorption.    The

> other thing I do is slow down with rubbing in the gel.   I

> apply less pressure and use a wider strokes.  I also am

> very conscious to make sure that I get as much wet in at one

> place before it dries.   And I continue to lightly rub

> even after it appears to dry.   

>

>

>

> Re: Androgel Failure, Injections --

> Questions and Ideas

>

>

> I'm on AndroGel 7.5 daily and am open to any ideas to

> make it more

> effective, that is, yield higher levels (I seem to test at

> 350-400

> total T at this dosage). Have you been tested since

> starting to apply

> to the calf and behind the knee? If so, how much of an

> increase did

> you see by doing this? Does this mean you do not apply any

> gel at all

> to the shoulders? Finally, how do you deal with leg hair?

> My endo had

> warned me off applying to any hairy parts as the hair would

> pick up

> too much of the gel. Thanks!

>

>

>

>

> >

> > ,

> > �

> > Using my lower leg is the best for me.� It is

> night and day for me.�

> I would never go back to arms or shoulders.� Lower

> legs and underside

> of the knee and ankle make feel like I have 2 times the T

> in my

> system.�� I don't get muscle pain after a

> long day nor do I get that

> 'I forgot my wallet feeling' either. And especially

> I don't myself

> withering.

> > �

> > I feel whole!�I feel complete.� I feel fully

> stable.� Not just

> mentally but physically.��

> > �

> > Justus

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Like most of us all you can do is try it don't put it on your chest. Do labs in

4 to 6 weeks and see how your levels come back.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: a_hohmann <a_hohmann@...>

> Subject: Re: Androgel Failure, Injections -- Questions and

Ideas

>

> Date: Tuesday, October 14, 2008, 6:57 PM

> I actually feel rather good - certainly better than I've

> felt in a very long time. Morning

> erections every day, good energy, E2 at 26, etc. So

> I've been reluctant to switch to

> injectables as the gel seems to be working and is very

> convenient and keeps me feeling

> very consistent from day to day. My original question,

> however, remains one of wanting to

> know if applying gel to areas such as the poster mentioned

> - behind the knees and on the

> calves - makes a material difference.

>

>

> > > >

> > > > ,

> > > > �

> > > > Using my lower leg is the best for me.�

> It is

> > > night and day for me.�

> > > I would never go back to arms or shoulders.�

> Lower

> > > legs and underside

> > > of the knee and ankle make feel like I have 2

> times the T

> > > in my

> > > system.�� I don't get muscle pain

> after a

> > > long day nor do I get that

> > > 'I forgot my wallet feeling' either. And

> especially

> > > I don't myself

> > > withering.

> > > > �

> > > > I feel whole!�I feel complete.� I

> feel fully

> > > stable.� Not just

> > > mentally but physically.��

> > > > �

> > > > Justus

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Get some Isocort work your way up slow to 8 pills a day much better then HC

cream.

http://vitaminmd.com/inc/sdetail/637

Here is how you start on Isocort or HC pills.

Read number 20.

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info/faq/

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: trannyboy84 <trannyboy@...>

> Subject: Re: Androgel Failure, Injections -- Questions and

Ideas

>

> Date: Tuesday, October 14, 2008, 11:36 PM

> Okay I have to pipe up. First sky I am sorry about your

> experiences, I

> know if you had asked me 2 days ago I would be agreeing

> with you but I

> have finally been pushed over the edge. I am now self

> medicating with

> topical hydrocortisone and it feels like my brain is on for

> the first

> time in weeks and haven't been bedridden or stuck in

> the bath. F*ck

> the doctors, their only use is writing scripts, labs, being

> an

> outsider with knowledge you might not have. Even if we are

> opposed we

> shouldn't surrender, the only way out is through it. If

> doctors won't

> preform the only useful things then I will find another

> way.

>

> In terms of your options of HRT, read on. I am on and

> loving pellets,

> so that is my bias.

>

> Oral- You can either cause a 17-alpha-methyl alteration to

> make the

> liver ignore it and likewise kill your liver. Alternatively

> the

> testosterone undecanoate rely on a very unstable route of

> adsorption

> through the lymph system. This only works with high fat

> meals taken

> with the drug, if not it goes to the liver and is

> deactivated and

> possibly harms the liver. More info can be found here but

> suffice to

> say this technology is not new and has been used in other T

> products

> with limited success. The drug is available in Canada and

> Europe;

> theoretically could be imported.

> http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catandriol.htm

>

> A mix of oral and topical is the mucus membrane patch or

> sublingual

> drops. You may find good success with compounded drops but

> it requires

> repeat dosing and care not to swallow it. I wouldn't

> recommend the

> mucus membrane patch because it doesn't allow any

> dosage changes, may

> be swallowed, doesn't stay on well and causes

> irritation in some. It

> is expensive and I believe it can be found in most

> countries but don't

> know for sure. I know little about the conversions with

> these methods.

>

> Injections may be right for you but I am not comfortable

> making any

> judgments here. You would do best with a product made with

> PLGA

> microspheres that is being researched. It is the only

> chance of long

> term injections currently on the horizon. The other mixed

> esters and

> undecanoate is able to maintain levels at best for 6-8

> weeks and often

> less with significant highs and lows throughout. However if

> you can

> handle the swings the current options are the esters and

> that might

> theoretically lower your risks. If you chose injections pay

> attention

> to what ester is used i.e. longer ones that is your guide

> to longer

> lifetimes in the body.

>

> Topical options would be an immediate switch to the 10%

> cream (not

> versa gel) formulation. Androgel's makers shot

> themselves in the foot

> with alcohol and the 1% formulation. That caused the main

> problems

> with their product. I couldn't breath through the

> fumes. Then remember

> the more vascular the better absorption. Same goes for

> thinner skin.

> So neck, behind ears, armpits, elbow, wrists, groin, back

> of knees and

> genitals. Take care with genitals may cause elevated PSA,

> prostate

> cancer risk, BPH, urinary problems etc. It must be covered

> by clothing

> in day to day life and you must be willing to shave the

> hair off the

> area. The other options would be an occlusive dressing like

> tegaderm

> over the area which would increase absorption.

>

> Also while most formulations use pure crystallized

> testosterone, you

> may benefit from using an esterfied testosterone to make it

> last

> longer in your system. I would imagine propionate with its

> 3 day life

> would make the topical levels extremely stable; just a

> personal

> opinion because the swings killed me. I was so low by the

> next day on

> androgel that I couldn't remember to put it on. If

> however you need

> the cyclic nature of base testosterone then feel free to

> use it. So to

> recap give up the androgel and switch to 10% testosterone

> base or

> propionate cream and rub a dab on your inner and upper

> thigh adding

> more until you feel right; then get tested after 3 days for

> base and a

> week for propionate. Follow up consists of the doing that

> for as long

> as it works. If you decide to try all of these options at

> once you

> should start with a very small amount and work up dosing no

> more then

> every 8 hours. You are going to get some very fast

> absorption that

> way. Phil or one of the doctors what happens if you adjust

> the

> androgens too rapidly?

>

> Pellets is your last option. I love pellets but they do

> have a risk of

> infection especially if not made and implanted under strict

> conditions. It isn't just infections where the pellets

> face problems.

> If you implant more then two they rub against each and the

> tissue;

> three or more will cause buckling, breaking and overlapping

> with the

> same damage causing an inflammatory process that can cause

> a rejection

> process both bad things. They also don't encapsulate

> like other

> implants in the body and migrate. These factors are very

> well

> understood in the modification community. They need to be

> located in

> an area where they can be felt and is vascular fatty area.

> They aren't

> easily adjusted and require minor surgery for implanting

> and removal.

>

> Currently it is hard to get true custom pellets however

> maybe you have

> a good compounder. We would also do well to consider

> enclosing the

> implants in a soft silicone shell to eliminate the edges.

> Testicle

> implants have been forwarded as a good option allowing a

> lengthly

> lifetime of 5 years in some cases. Since the surface area

> is

> controlled the dosage is also controlled so you would do

> best to

> determine your correct dosage prior to going to advanced

> options. It

> would eliminate the swings in serum levels that even

> pellets despite

> their lifetime have at the beginning and end.

>

> They respond to temperature so if you do anything to change

> your

> temperature that will effect how much you get. This means a

> lot

> because it mimics the natural swings of the testicles.

> Through the

> overall swings are quite small. I like them and I this is

> by far the

> best method though I haven't tried the oral, sublingual

> or mucus

> membrane patch.

>

> The final point I would like to make is there are very good

> body

> modification artists who have been doing implants only for

> years with

> much better success then many of the studied implanters.

> They aren't

> nearly as expensive as doctors with a lot more knowledge to

> boot. They

> also might be found while a doctor with experience

> can't be. Be very

> careful who you pick. If you don't know what is right

> then you might

> be very wrong. I am a medic and can identify poor surgical

> technique

> and sterile environment, you make your own call.

>

> trannyboy

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

This does bring up one question I've been wondering about since I began on

AndroGel: Why

exactly should the chest be avoided? The AndroGel literature doesn't recommend

using the

chest yet two endocrinologists I discussed this with raised no objections to the

chest. Now I

don't put much stock in what endos say since, as everyone here seems to have

experienced,

they are as a group terribly uninformed and inexperienced in matters of male

TRT. But I

remain interested in knowing what about the chest makes that area off limits for

gel

applications. Thanks. This group is, needless to say, a valuable resource.

>

> Like most of us all you can do is try it don't put it on your chest. Do labs

in 4 to 6 weeks

and see how your levels come back.

>

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

[Guest guest]

I think it is to keep gyno down.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: a_hohmann <a_hohmann@...>

> Subject: Re: Androgel Failure, Injections -- Questions and

Ideas

>

> Date: Wednesday, October 15, 2008, 7:42 PM

> This does bring up one question I've been wondering

> about since I began on AndroGel: Why

> exactly should the chest be avoided? The AndroGel

> literature doesn't recommend using the

> chest yet two endocrinologists I discussed this with raised

> no objections to the chest. Now I

> don't put much stock in what endos say since, as

> everyone here seems to have experienced,

> they are as a group terribly uninformed and inexperienced

> in matters of male TRT. But I

> remain interested in knowing what about the chest makes

> that area off limits for gel

> applications. Thanks. This group is, needless to say, a

> valuable resource.

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Like most of us all you can do is try it don't put

> it on your chest. Do labs in 4 to 6 weeks

> and see how your levels come back.

> >

> > Co-Moderator

> > Phil

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>