Re: Shrinking (Atrophy) Question.

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I've been away for several months but can help.

I have been receiving TRT since 1991 and yes the testicles which are

not doing me any good have reduced to grape size. They are still there

and I don't count them important enough to get falsies dropped in or

taking the grapes out.

I'm now 74 and plan to keep receiving TRT until I die. My capabilities

with mental gymnastics and feeling of well being are essentials I do

not want to live without.

ernestnolan

>

> I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my testicular atrophy.

> He agreed that I was having a problem with this but suggested it

> might not continue or that it would be so slow as to not be noticable.

> Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is for this? Phil (I

> think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20 years. Is that pretty

> standard?

>

> BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs and they say no

> way for me. <sigh>

>

[Guest guest]

I lost some volume initially but I have been stable for several years.

Brad

>

> I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my testicular atrophy.

> He agreed that I was having a problem with this but suggested it

> might not continue or that it would be so slow as to not be noticable.

> Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is for this? Phil (I

> think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20 years. Is that pretty

> standard?

>

> BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs and they say no

> way for me. <sigh>

>

[Guest guest]

Phil can chime in on this one too.

,

According to the AACE guidelines there is no treatment

for atrophy except to discontinue HRT. HCG and clomid

are not a treatment method but more of a testing

regimen to determine primary or secondary

hypogonadism. Does this sound stupid?? Indeed!! HcG

and clomid have been used for years without side

effect on probably several million men seeking

fertility. The sport of body building has been using

them for over 30 or so years to recover from steriod

cycles with 0% side effects. Personally, after 2 years

of HRT I've seen a 50% reduction in size. That's

noticable and I'm sure it will continue!

Sorry to be the wet blanket.

LD

--- james186282 <pillow@...> wrote:

> I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my

> testicular atrophy.

> He agreed that I was having a problem with this but

> suggested it

> might not continue or that it would be so slow as to

> not be noticable.

> Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is

> for this? Phil (I

> think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20

> years. Is that pretty

> standard?

>

> BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs

> and they say no

> way for me. <sigh>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

As long as your on TRT your Testis will not work and if you don't do HCG in a

low dose to keep them working they will get small how small no one knows. We

all are not the same but My Test were not working for 22 yrs and going on HCG

got them back. All I can say is try show you Dr. Dr. s site

www.allthingsmale.com Read TRT: A Recipe for success and his HCG update. Also

this link.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/5/2595

Phil

james186282 <pillow@...> wrote:

I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my testicular atrophy.

He agreed that I was having a problem with this but suggested it

might not continue or that it would be so slow as to not be noticable.

Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is for this? Phil (I

think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20 years. Is that pretty

standard?

BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs and they say no

way for me.

[Guest guest]

Can I chime in on this hell I could go on for hrs. The AACE Guildlines have not

been updated for yrs. Some of it is dam good but other things are way off the

mark. When we go on TRT we shut down the HPTA this means are brain will not

send the LH and FSH messages to the Testis to make T also all the other cells in

are body and brain will not get these messages so we rob are selfs of working

Testis and all the other cells in the body and brain. This is why we get that

feeling of well being after a shot of HCG and this feeling is not coming from

the Testis.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/5/2595

Phil

Liam <patrolbase19@...> wrote:

Phil can chime in on this one too.

,

According to the AACE guidelines there is no treatment

for atrophy except to discontinue HRT. HCG and clomid

are not a treatment method but more of a testing

regimen to determine primary or secondary

hypogonadism. Does this sound stupid?? Indeed!! HcG

and clomid have been used for years without side

effect on probably several million men seeking

fertility. The sport of body building has been using

them for over 30 or so years to recover from steriod

cycles with 0% side effects. Personally, after 2 years

of HRT I've seen a 50% reduction in size. That's

noticable and I'm sure it will continue!

Sorry to be the wet blanket.

LD

--- james186282

wrote:

> I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my

> testicular atrophy.

> He agreed that I was having a problem with this but

> suggested it

> might not continue or that it would be so slow as to

> not be noticable.

> Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is

> for this? Phil (I

> think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20

> years. Is that pretty

> standard?

>

> BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs

> and they say no

> way for me.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hey ALL! Heck! I'm going to be 51 in a month. I had a vasectomy

after my 4th in 1981. So my testicles and Christmas Tree bulbs have

had one thing in common since then...they are only

for " decoration " !!! LOLOLOLOLOL! I could care less if I didn't have

ANY testicles in 10-20 years! I can't wait for them to vanish but my

wife of several decades loves to " play " . So I may be forced to have

phonies put in. Plus, I'll have the surgeon put the largest size in

so I have a " great package " when I'm 61 and older. Love it!

Aloha for now,

Hawaiian Wayne

>

> > I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my

> > testicular atrophy.

> > He agreed that I was having a problem with this but

> > suggested it

> > might not continue or that it would be so slow as to

> > not be noticable.

> > Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is

> > for this? Phil (I

> > think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20

> > years. Is that pretty

> > standard?

> >

> > BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs

> > and they say no

> > way for me.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

For what it's worth, I had a extensive conversation with my urologist

on this very subject before starting HRT. He said about 50% of

patients on HRT experience atrophy. Why some didn't he couldn't

completely answer. Also, I asked him if at some point would they

return to normal if I stopped HRT and he replied " probably not. " They

would, however, start producing T again, but wouldn't return to their

full size. How much one would reverse the action wasn't really

discussed. Also, he said the greater the amount of T, the greater the

atrophy. He made the comment about body builders , steriods, and pea

sized testes. I took our conversation to mean that if one was

" reasonable " about HRT and didn't push the boundries, that one would

probably get minimal, if any atrophy. Maybe I'm wrong, but that was my

impression. I have been using one (5) Androgel per day for about 8

months, and haven't noticed any appreciable difference. That's not to

say, however, it won't happen down the road somewhere.

Just one Dr's opinion..................

On a related subject, I experienced a decrease in libido recently, but

over the last month or so have been taking L-Arginine (500mg). Maybe

it's just a placebo effect, but I swear it's working. Not only is my

libido way up, but my testes seem looser, hang more freely, and my load

has increased. The load has also changed in consistency....A little

more white than normal, and thicker. MY wife made a comment recently

that I seemed horny all the time. Not sure what all this means, but I

like it.

A lot of research also has shown that L-Arginine can help with some

people's erections as it has a strong nitric oxide effect....Some basic

research in on-line will give you a ton of information on the subject.

According to research I did, the aminos, particularly L-Arginine is

best taken on a empty stomach. Also, don't take it with L-lysine as

they compete for the same receptors and negate each other. The reason

I'm saying this is that some people take amino tablets (or drinks) with

all the " L " s lumped in there together. In order to get L-Arginine,

you'll probably have to go to a health food store, or a GNC. Most

grocery and drug stores don't carry something that specific.

Bill

On Jun 24, 2006, at 8:13 PM, philip georgian wrote:

> Can I chime in on this hell I could go on for hrs. The AACE Guildlines

> have not been updated for yrs. Some of it is dam good but other things

> are way off the mark. When we go on TRT we shut down the HPTA this

> means are brain will not send the LH and FSH messages to the Testis to

> make T also all the other cells in are body and brain will not get

> these messages so we rob are selfs of working Testis and all the other

> cells in the body and brain. This is why we get that feeling of well

> being after a shot of HCG and this feeling is not coming from the

> Testis.

> http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/5/2595

> Phil

>

> Liam <patrolbase19@...> wrote:

> Phil can chime in on this one too.

>

> ,

>

> According to the AACE guidelines there is no treatment

> for atrophy except to discontinue HRT. HCG and clomid

> are not a treatment method but more of a testing

> regimen to determine primary or secondary

> hypogonadism. Does this sound stupid?? Indeed!! HcG

> and clomid have been used for years without side

> effect on probably several million men seeking

> fertility. The sport of body building has been using

> them for over 30 or so years to recover from steriod

> cycles with 0% side effects. Personally, after 2 years

> of HRT I've seen a 50% reduction in size. That's

> noticable and I'm sure it will continue!

>

> Sorry to be the wet blanket.

>

> LD

>

> --- james186282

> wrote:

>

> > I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my

> > testicular atrophy.

> > He agreed that I was having a problem with this but

> > suggested it

> > might not continue or that it would be so slow as to

> > not be noticable.

> > Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is

> > for this? Phil (I

> > think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20

> > years. Is that pretty

> > standard?

> >

> > BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs

> > and they say no

> > way for me.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill,

Your one of the few men I have come across that do well on just 5 grams of

Androgel you must absorb it well through your skin. Or your not high enough a

rule of thumb is to have your Total and Free T up in the upper 1/3 of your labs

range for a young man. Can you post you last Test results with the units and

ranges. Also high Estradiol can lower you libido and Zinc/Copper helps this

some and most of us man are low on Zinc we doing get it for the corn fed meat we

eat.

http://www.myvitanet.com/zincop100cnt.html

I have been taking L-Arginine for some time and yes it helps.

http://www.myvitanet.com/twinarcap100.html

I also take Maca this really kick up my libido I get it by the pound and take

1/2 a tsp full morning and at noon mix with applesauce or yogurt. I do 3 weeks

on and one week off.

I went 22 yrs with my levels in mid range and when I got up into the upper 1/3

of the range my joint and muscle pain was gone and I now feel the best ever.

I added HCG to my T shots and my levels doubled in about 6 months my Testis

came back up to there normal size. And I am not the only one saying this adding

HCG stimulates your Testis to work and gives you a feeling of well being because

it also stimulates other cells that are not working from being on T meds. Doing

TRT stops sending the LH and FSH messages to your Testis and your body and

brain. So adding HCG to the mix is a must. Go to www.allthingsmale.com and

Read TRT: A Recipe for Success and his HCG Update.

Phil

BBA <bba@...> wrote: For what it's worth, I had a extensive

conversation with my urologist

on this very subject before starting HRT. He said about 50% of

patients on HRT experience atrophy. Why some didn't he couldn't

completely answer. Also, I asked him if at some point would they

return to normal if I stopped HRT and he replied " probably not. " They

would, however, start producing T again, but wouldn't return to their

full size. How much one would reverse the action wasn't really

discussed. Also, he said the greater the amount of T, the greater the

atrophy. He made the comment about body builders , steriods, and pea

sized testes. I took our conversation to mean that if one was

" reasonable " about HRT and didn't push the boundries, that one would

probably get minimal, if any atrophy. Maybe I'm wrong, but that was my

impression. I have been using one (5) Androgel per day for about 8

months, and haven't noticed any appreciable difference. That's not to

say, however, it won't happen down the road somewhere.

Just one Dr's opinion..................

On a related subject, I experienced a decrease in libido recently, but

over the last month or so have been taking L-Arginine (500mg). Maybe

it's just a placebo effect, but I swear it's working. Not only is my

libido way up, but my testes seem looser, hang more freely, and my load

has increased. The load has also changed in consistency....A little

more white than normal, and thicker. MY wife made a comment recently

that I seemed horny all the time. Not sure what all this means, but I

like it.

A lot of research also has shown that L-Arginine can help with some

people's erections as it has a strong nitric oxide effect....Some basic

research in on-line will give you a ton of information on the subject.

According to research I did, the aminos, particularly L-Arginine is

best taken on a empty stomach. Also, don't take it with L-lysine as

they compete for the same receptors and negate each other. The reason

I'm saying this is that some people take amino tablets (or drinks) with

all the " L " s lumped in there together. In order to get L-Arginine,

you'll probably have to go to a health food store, or a GNC. Most

grocery and drug stores don't carry something that specific.

Bill

On Jun 24, 2006, at 8:13 PM, philip georgian wrote:

> Can I chime in on this hell I could go on for hrs. The AACE Guildlines

> have not been updated for yrs. Some of it is dam good but other things

> are way off the mark. When we go on TRT we shut down the HPTA this

> means are brain will not send the LH and FSH messages to the Testis to

> make T also all the other cells in are body and brain will not get

> these messages so we rob are selfs of working Testis and all the other

> cells in the body and brain. This is why we get that feeling of well

> being after a shot of HCG and this feeling is not coming from the

> Testis.

> http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/5/2595

> Phil

>

> Liam

wrote:

> Phil can chime in on this one too.

>

> ,

>

> According to the AACE guidelines there is no treatment

> for atrophy except to discontinue HRT. HCG and clomid

> are not a treatment method but more of a testing

> regimen to determine primary or secondary

> hypogonadism. Does this sound stupid?? Indeed!! HcG

> and clomid have been used for years without side

> effect on probably several million men seeking

> fertility. The sport of body building has been using

> them for over 30 or so years to recover from steriod

> cycles with 0% side effects. Personally, after 2 years

> of HRT I've seen a 50% reduction in size. That's

> noticable and I'm sure it will continue!

>

> Sorry to be the wet blanket.

>

> LD

>

> --- james186282

> wrote:

>

> > I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my

> > testicular atrophy.

> > He agreed that I was having a problem with this but

> > suggested it

> > might not continue or that it would be so slow as to

> > not be noticable.

> > Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is

> > for this? Phil (I

> > think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20

> > years. Is that pretty

> > standard?

> >

> > BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs

> > and they say no

> > way for me.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Before HRT, my GP ordered a free T test & it was 8.9 via Labcorp. I

was referred to my urologist and he put me on 5mg of Androgel and

tested 3 months later. This time, I was tested for total T and the

results were 650 ish. Not sure what the other results were. Granted,

I have not seen huge results, but things have moved into a positive

direction. The changes have been more subtle. My T was low due to

maintenance Rxs I take and probably will take for the rest of my life.

Bill

On Jun 25, 2006, at 12:04 PM, philip georgian wrote:

> Hi Bill,

>

> Your one of the few men I have come across that do well on just 5

> grams of Androgel you must absorb it well through your skin. Or your

> not high enough a rule of thumb is to have your Total and Free T up in

> the upper 1/3 of your labs range for a young man. Can you post you

> last Test results with the units and ranges. Also high Estradiol can

> lower you libido and Zinc/Copper helps this some and most of us man

> are low on Zinc we doing get it for the corn fed meat we eat.

> http://www.myvitanet.com/zincop100cnt.html

>

> I have been taking L-Arginine for some time and yes it helps.

> http://www.myvitanet.com/twinarcap100.html

>

> I also take Maca this really kick up my libido I get it by the pound

> and take 1/2 a tsp full morning and at noon mix with applesauce or

> yogurt. I do 3 weeks on and one week off.

>

> I went 22 yrs with my levels in mid range and when I got up into the

> upper 1/3 of the range my joint and muscle pain was gone and I now

> feel the best ever.

>

> I added HCG to my T shots and my levels doubled in about 6 months my

> Testis came back up to there normal size. And I am not the only one

> saying this adding HCG stimulates your Testis to work and gives you a

> feeling of well being because it also stimulates other cells that are

> not working from being on T meds. Doing TRT stops sending the LH and

> FSH messages to your Testis and your body and brain. So adding HCG to

> the mix is a must. Go to www.allthingsmale.com and Read TRT: A Recipe

> for Success and his HCG Update.

>

> Phil

>

> BBA <bba@...> wrote: For what it's worth, I had a extensive

> conversation with my urologist

> on this very subject before starting HRT. He said about 50% of

> patients on HRT experience atrophy. Why some didn't he couldn't

> completely answer. Also, I asked him if at some point would they

> return to normal if I stopped HRT and he replied " probably not. " They

> would, however, start producing T again, but wouldn't return to their

> full size. How much one would reverse the action wasn't really

> discussed. Also, he said the greater the amount of T, the greater the

> atrophy. He made the comment about body builders , steriods, and pea

> sized testes. I took our conversation to mean that if one was

> " reasonable " about HRT and didn't push the boundries, that one would

> probably get minimal, if any atrophy. Maybe I'm wrong, but that was my

> impression. I have been using one (5) Androgel per day for about 8

> months, and haven't noticed any appreciable difference. That's not to

> say, however, it won't happen down the road somewhere.

>

> Just one Dr's opinion..................

>

> On a related subject, I experienced a decrease in libido recently, but

> over the last month or so have been taking L-Arginine (500mg). Maybe

> it's just a placebo effect, but I swear it's working. Not only is my

> libido way up, but my testes seem looser, hang more freely, and my

> load

> has increased. The load has also changed in consistency....A little

> more white than normal, and thicker. MY wife made a comment recently

> that I seemed horny all the time. Not sure what all this means, but I

> like it.

>

> A lot of research also has shown that L-Arginine can help with some

> people's erections as it has a strong nitric oxide effect....Some

> basic

> research in on-line will give you a ton of information on the subject.

>

> According to research I did, the aminos, particularly L-Arginine is

> best taken on a empty stomach. Also, don't take it with L-lysine as

> they compete for the same receptors and negate each other. The reason

> I'm saying this is that some people take amino tablets (or drinks)

> with

> all the " L " s lumped in there together. In order to get L-Arginine,

> you'll probably have to go to a health food store, or a GNC. Most

> grocery and drug stores don't carry something that specific.

>

> Bill

>

> On Jun 24, 2006, at 8:13 PM, philip georgian wrote:

>

> > Can I chime in on this hell I could go on for hrs. The AACE

> Guildlines

> > have not been updated for yrs. Some of it is dam good but other

> things

> > are way off the mark. When we go on TRT we shut down the HPTA this

> > means are brain will not send the LH and FSH messages to the Testis

> to

> > make T also all the other cells in are body and brain will not get

> > these messages so we rob are selfs of working Testis and all the

> other

> > cells in the body and brain. This is why we get that feeling of well

> > being after a shot of HCG and this feeling is not coming from the

> > Testis.

> > http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/5/2595

> > Phil

> >

> > Liam

> wrote:

> > Phil can chime in on this one too.

> >

> > ,

> >

> > According to the AACE guidelines there is no treatment

> > for atrophy except to discontinue HRT. HCG and clomid

> > are not a treatment method but more of a testing

> > regimen to determine primary or secondary

> > hypogonadism. Does this sound stupid?? Indeed!! HcG

> > and clomid have been used for years without side

> > effect on probably several million men seeking

> > fertility. The sport of body building has been using

> > them for over 30 or so years to recover from steriod

> > cycles with 0% side effects. Personally, after 2 years

> > of HRT I've seen a 50% reduction in size. That's

> > noticable and I'm sure it will continue!

> >

> > Sorry to be the wet blanket.

> >

> > LD

> >

> > --- james186282

> > wrote:

> >

> > > I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my

> > > testicular atrophy.

> > > He agreed that I was having a problem with this but

> > > suggested it

> > > might not continue or that it would be so slow as to

> > > not be noticable.

> > > Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is

> > > for this? Phil (I

> > > think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20

> > > years. Is that pretty

> > > standard?

> > >

> > > BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs

> > > and they say no

> > > way for me.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Thanks for that feedback. I spoke to my Doctor about how long I would

be on Androgel and she indicated this was most likely a for life

thing. Which I have to admit is a relief. The serious problems I was

having with low Testosterone made life a LOT less good.

I guess I'm already pretty close to or at that grape level. Its

possible I stated with a little less than average as we think my

problem was damage from the mumps.

> >

> > I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my testicular atrophy.

> > He agreed that I was having a problem with this but suggested it

> > might not continue or that it would be so slow as to not be noticable.

> > Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is for this? Phil (I

> > think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20 years. Is that pretty

> > standard?

> >

> > BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs and they say no

> > way for me. <sigh>

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil.

The three Doctors I've talked to are aware of this but advise strongly

against it. Long term use of " Fertility " drugs is not safe is what

they all say.

Was it you that mentioned the raisin sized set in 20 years or?

-

> I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my testicular atrophy.

> He agreed that I was having a problem with this but suggested it

> might not continue or that it would be so slow as to not be noticable.

> Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is for this? Phil (I

> think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20 years. Is that pretty

> standard?

>

> BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs and they say no

> way for me.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi LD:

I've been on HRT for almost that long and I was trying to guesstimate

the shrinkage. I was going to say by a 3rd but volume wise it maybe

closer to 1/2 as your seeing.

I know it may sound more like a " chick " thing but I am bothered by it.

>

> > I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my

> > testicular atrophy.

> > He agreed that I was having a problem with this but

> > suggested it

> > might not continue or that it would be so slow as to

> > not be noticable.

> > Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is

> > for this? Phil (I

> > think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20

> > years. Is that pretty

> > standard?

> >

> > BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs

> > and they say no

> > way for me. <sigh>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Using the lowest possible dose of any drug is kind of standard Doctor

practice. The problem is that too low on the Testosterone is going to

make your quality of life go down. *If its dialed down too low. I

had to send my Doctor an SOS when I peaked for a short time after

starting HRT and then hit rock bottom again. She kept raising the

dose to 10 gms then after blood testing dialed it down one notch. If

feeling pretty good. The sex drive is a big part of course but the

energy, mood, lack of anxiety and ability to think clearly are very

important also!

> >

> > > I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my

> > > testicular atrophy.

> > > He agreed that I was having a problem with this but

> > > suggested it

> > > might not continue or that it would be so slow as to

> > > not be noticable.

> > > Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is

> > > for this? Phil (I

> > > think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20

> > > years. Is that pretty

> > > standard?

> > >

> > > BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs

> > > and they say no

> > > way for me.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

No it was not me more like a small grape size. Most Dr.'s are not up on TRT let

alone the use of HCG. Read this link and you will see what I am talking about.

Most Dr.'s think about HCG in dose's up over 1500 IU's and yes doing this for a

long time will burn out your Testis but we are talking about a low dose like 250

IU's 2 x's a week.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/5/2595

Phil

james186282 <pillow@...> wrote:

Hi Phil.

The three Doctors I've talked to are aware of this but advise strongly

against it. Long term use of " Fertility " drugs is not safe is what

they all say.

Was it you that mentioned the raisin sized set in 20 years or?

-

> I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my testicular atrophy.

> He agreed that I was having a problem with this but suggested it

> might not continue or that it would be so slow as to not be noticable.

> Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is for this? Phil (I

> think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20 years. Is that pretty

> standard?

>

> BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs and they say no

> way for me.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Have your Dr. check your Estradiol if this goes to high it will kill your sex

drive and give you ED. It should be between 10 to 30 if yours comes back higher

get back to me and I was help you get it down.

http://www.medibolics.com/ArimidexBoostsTestosterone.htm

http://www.smart-drugs.com/ias-estrogen.htm

Phil

james186282 <pillow@...> wrote:

Using the lowest possible dose of any drug is kind of standard Doctor

practice. The problem is that too low on the Testosterone is going to

make your quality of life go down. *If its dialed down too low. I

had to send my Doctor an SOS when I peaked for a short time after

starting HRT and then hit rock bottom again. She kept raising the

dose to 10 gms then after blood testing dialed it down one notch. If

feeling pretty good. The sex drive is a big part of course but the

energy, mood, lack of anxiety and ability to think clearly are very

important also!

> >

> > > I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my

> > > testicular atrophy.

> > > He agreed that I was having a problem with this but

> > > suggested it

> > > might not continue or that it would be so slow as to

> > > not be noticable.

> > > Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is

> > > for this? Phil (I

> > > think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20

> > > years. Is that pretty

> > > standard?

> > >

> > > BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs

> > > and they say no

> > > way for me.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I had to look at my old labs. Estrodiol reading around 22 and one

weird reading of 50 but that same test I got an insane Testosterone

level that never repeated.

> > >

> > > > I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my

> > > > testicular atrophy.

> > > > He agreed that I was having a problem with this but

> > > > suggested it

> > > > might not continue or that it would be so slow as to

> > > > not be noticable.

> > > > Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is

> > > > for this? Phil (I

> > > > think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20

> > > > years. Is that pretty

> > > > standard?

> > > >

> > > > BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs

> > > > and they say no

> > > > way for me.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

According to a literature search, the average size of human testicle is 18-20

cubic centimeters. That is approximately the size of a pecan shell included.

Extreme would be 30 cc. When I was a teen and in my 20's, mine were average

size. Since becoming hypogonadic and on TRT, they have reduced by approximately

50% or the size of a grape. I am considering HCG to keep them functioning on

some level and I think there is a lot we don't know that a LH analog could do

for you. Do you need to take it all the time? I don't know. Possibly considering

a two month regime with HCG and TRT then a 4 month period of TRT only.

Arkansas

Liam <patrolbase19@...> wrote:

Phil can chime in on this one too.

,

According to the AACE guidelines there is no treatment

for atrophy except to discontinue HRT. HCG and clomid

are not a treatment method but more of a testing

regimen to determine primary or secondary

hypogonadism. Does this sound stupid?? Indeed!! HcG

and clomid have been used for years without side

effect on probably several million men seeking

fertility. The sport of body building has been using

them for over 30 or so years to recover from steriod

cycles with 0% side effects. Personally, after 2 years

of HRT I've seen a 50% reduction in size. That's

noticable and I'm sure it will continue!

Sorry to be the wet blanket.

LD

--- james186282 <pillow@...> wrote:

> I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my

> testicular atrophy.

> He agreed that I was having a problem with this but

> suggested it

> might not continue or that it would be so slow as to

> not be noticable.

> Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is

> for this? Phil (I

> think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20

> years. Is that pretty

> standard?

>

> BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs

> and they say no

> way for me. <sigh>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am totally embarrased to talk about this on a webgroup. I don't have testicle

atrophy, but my penis seems to have shrank. I mean when flacid it's not even an

inch big. I am on the starter dose of testim and I was praying it would grow a

bit... I am embarrassed to date because I am embarrassed that she would want to

do something and I would not be able to rise to the occasion.

I am also embarrassed to talk to my doctor about this... I just don't know how

to approach her.

Re: Shrinking (Atrophy) Question.

According to a literature search, the average size of human testicle is 18-20

cubic centimeters. That is approximately the size of a pecan shell included.

Extreme would be 30 cc. When I was a teen and in my 20's, mine were average

size. Since becoming hypogonadic and on TRT, they have reduced by approximately

50% or the size of a grape. I am considering HCG to keep them functioning on

some level and I think there is a lot we don't know that a LH analog could do

for you. Do you need to take it all the time? I don't know. Possibly considering

a two month regime with HCG and TRT then a 4 month period of TRT only.

Arkansas

Liam <patrolbase19@...> wrote:

Phil can chime in on this one too.

,

According to the AACE guidelines there is no treatment

for atrophy except to discontinue HRT. HCG and clomid

are not a treatment method but more of a testing

regimen to determine primary or secondary

hypogonadism. Does this sound stupid?? Indeed!! HcG

and clomid have been used for years without side

effect on probably several million men seeking

fertility. The sport of body building has been using

them for over 30 or so years to recover from steriod

cycles with 0% side effects. Personally, after 2 years

of HRT I've seen a 50% reduction in size. That's

noticable and I'm sure it will continue!

Sorry to be the wet blanket.

LD

--- james186282 <pillow@...> wrote:

> I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my

> testicular atrophy.

> He agreed that I was having a problem with this but

> suggested it

> might not continue or that it would be so slow as to

> not be noticable.

> Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is

> for this? Phil (I

> think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20

> years. Is that pretty

> standard?

>

> BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs

> and they say no

> way for me. <sigh>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

-

We are all here to help! No worries, ok. Question- Did it appear to

have shrank before HRT or after starting HRT? Also, how long have you

been on testim, and what were your initial test results.

Bill

On Jun 26, 2006, at 1:27 PM, Prunty wrote:

> I am totally embarrased to talk about this on a webgroup. I don't have

> testicle atrophy, but my penis seems to have shrank. I mean when

> flacid it's not even an inch big. I am on the starter dose of testim

> and I was praying it would grow a bit... I am embarrassed to date

> because I am embarrassed that she would want to do something and I

> would not be able to rise to the occasion.

>

> I am also embarrassed to talk to my doctor about this... I just don't

> know how to approach her.

>

>

>

> Re: Shrinking (Atrophy) Question.

>

> According to a literature search, the average size of human testicle

> is 18-20 cubic centimeters. That is approximately the size of a pecan

> shell included. Extreme would be 30 cc. When I was a teen and in my

> 20's, mine were average size. Since becoming hypogonadic and on TRT,

> they have reduced by approximately 50% or the size of a grape. I am

> considering HCG to keep them functioning on some level and I think

> there is a lot we don't know that a LH analog could do for you. Do you

> need to take it all the time? I don't know. Possibly considering a two

> month regime with HCG and TRT then a 4 month period of TRT only.

>

> Arkansas

>

> Liam <patrolbase19@...> wrote:

> Phil can chime in on this one too.

>

> ,

>

> According to the AACE guidelines there is no treatment

> for atrophy except to discontinue HRT. HCG and clomid

> are not a treatment method but more of a testing

> regimen to determine primary or secondary

> hypogonadism. Does this sound stupid?? Indeed!! HcG

> and clomid have been used for years without side

> effect on probably several million men seeking

> fertility. The sport of body building has been using

> them for over 30 or so years to recover from steriod

> cycles with 0% side effects. Personally, after 2 years

> of HRT I've seen a 50% reduction in size. That's

> noticable and I'm sure it will continue!

>

> Sorry to be the wet blanket.

>

> LD

>

> --- james186282 <pillow@...> wrote:

>

> > I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my

> > testicular atrophy.

> > He agreed that I was having a problem with this but

> > suggested it

> > might not continue or that it would be so slow as to

> > not be noticable.

> > Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is

> > for this? Phil (I

> > think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20

> > years. Is that pretty

> > standard?

> >

> > BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs

> > and they say no

> > way for me. <sigh>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

You can do it that way but I think when you see how much better you feel on it

you will do it all the time. Dr. is the one that came up with this doing

HCG with TRT some say they have seen it before but I never did and I have been

looking a long time. He does 250 IU's the 5th and 6th days after a T shot or if

on gels he dose it every 3 days.

Phil

Dan Meatheany <dmeatheany@...> wrote:

According to a literature search, the average size of human testicle is 18-20

cubic centimeters. That is approximately the size of a pecan shell included.

Extreme would be 30 cc. When I was a teen and in my 20's, mine were average

size. Since becoming hypogonadic and on TRT, they have reduced by approximately

50% or the size of a grape. I am considering HCG to keep them functioning on

some level and I think there is a lot we don't know that a LH analog could do

for you. Do you need to take it all the time? I don't know. Possibly considering

a two month regime with HCG and TRT then a 4 month period of TRT only.

Arkansas

Liam

wrote:

Phil can chime in on this one too.

,

According to the AACE guidelines there is no treatment

for atrophy except to discontinue HRT. HCG and clomid

are not a treatment method but more of a testing

regimen to determine primary or secondary

hypogonadism. Does this sound stupid?? Indeed!! HcG

and clomid have been used for years without side

effect on probably several million men seeking

fertility. The sport of body building has been using

them for over 30 or so years to recover from steriod

cycles with 0% side effects. Personally, after 2 years

of HRT I've seen a 50% reduction in size. That's

noticable and I'm sure it will continue!

Sorry to be the wet blanket.

LD

--- james186282

wrote:

> I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my

> testicular atrophy.

> He agreed that I was having a problem with this but

> suggested it

> might not continue or that it would be so slow as to

> not be noticable.

> Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is

> for this? Phil (I

> think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20

> years. Is that pretty

> standard?

>

> BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs

> and they say no

> way for me.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Estradiol should be checked with every T test we seem to have high levels on

TRT. And from what I have seen gels are as bad in converting to Estradiol.

Phil

james186282 <pillow@...> wrote:

I had to look at my old labs. Estrodiol reading around 22 and one

weird reading of 50 but that same test I got an insane Testosterone

level that never repeated.

> > >

> > > > I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my

> > > > testicular atrophy.

> > > > He agreed that I was having a problem with this but

> > > > suggested it

> > > > might not continue or that it would be so slow as to

> > > > not be noticable.

> > > > Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is

> > > > for this? Phil (I

> > > > think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20

> > > > years. Is that pretty

> > > > standard?

> > > >

> > > > BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs

> > > > and they say no

> > > > way for me.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil.

> I added HCG to my T shots and my levels doubled in about 6 months.

Your levels are now around 1,000, if I recall correctly. Are you

saying that injections only got your levels up to about 500 before you

started HCG? How much were you injecting?

Thanks,

Eugene

[Guest guest]

I think you will be happy when you get your levels up both total and free

T up in the upper 1/3 of your labs range. And keep your E2 Estradiol down

between 10 to 30 best at 20 then your penis will come back.

Phil

Prunty <allen@...> wrote:

I am totally embarrased to talk about this on a webgroup. I don't have

testicle atrophy, but my penis seems to have shrank. I mean when flacid it's not

even an inch big. I am on the starter dose of testim and I was praying it would

grow a bit... I am embarrassed to date because I am embarrassed that she would

want to do something and I would not be able to rise to the occasion.

I am also embarrassed to talk to my doctor about this... I just don't know how

to approach her.

Re: Shrinking (Atrophy) Question.

According to a literature search, the average size of human testicle is 18-20

cubic centimeters. That is approximately the size of a pecan shell included.

Extreme would be 30 cc. When I was a teen and in my 20's, mine were average

size. Since becoming hypogonadic and on TRT, they have reduced by approximately

50% or the size of a grape. I am considering HCG to keep them functioning on

some level and I think there is a lot we don't know that a LH analog could do

for you. Do you need to take it all the time? I don't know. Possibly considering

a two month regime with HCG and TRT then a 4 month period of TRT only.

Arkansas

Liam

wrote:

Phil can chime in on this one too.

,

According to the AACE guidelines there is no treatment

for atrophy except to discontinue HRT. HCG and clomid

are not a treatment method but more of a testing

regimen to determine primary or secondary

hypogonadism. Does this sound stupid?? Indeed!! HcG

and clomid have been used for years without side

effect on probably several million men seeking

fertility. The sport of body building has been using

them for over 30 or so years to recover from steriod

cycles with 0% side effects. Personally, after 2 years

of HRT I've seen a 50% reduction in size. That's

noticable and I'm sure it will continue!

Sorry to be the wet blanket.

LD

--- james186282

wrote:

> I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my

> testicular atrophy.

> He agreed that I was having a problem with this but

> suggested it

> might not continue or that it would be so slow as to

> not be noticable.

> Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is

> for this? Phil (I

> think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20

> years. Is that pretty

> standard?

>

> BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs

> and they say no

> way for me.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well I got up to 600 on 100 mgs. of test. Then we upped it to 150 mgs. and my

levels only went up to 650 now I don't us Quest there range only goes up to 800.

My lab goes up to 1593 my Dr. goes by the range of a young man he feels if it

was good for us in are 20's it is good for any age. So when we added HCG doing

500 IU's 3 times a week my levels went up to 1200. I told my Dr. that I read a

post by Dr. saying anything over 350 IU's is a waste and if you low your

dose your levels will not go down that much and the problem I was having with

high Estradiol E2 will come down. Well I went to 100 IU's everyday and my

levels came down to 990 and I felt the same and my E2 was a lot better. Today

to keep my E2 down I do my shots every 3 days 64 mgs. and my HCG 350 IU's the 2

days in between. Was doing 500 IU's the 2 days in between but my free T came

back over the top of the range. So we are trying 350 IU's. My E2 is much

better I was doing .5 Arimidex everyday now I

only do .5 mgs on the day of my shot. And still I went to low 2 days ago I

lost morning wood. I use wood as a gauge not to go to low.

eugenekeddy <eugenekeddy@...> wrote: Hi Phil.

> I added HCG to my T shots and my levels doubled in about 6 months.

Your levels are now around 1,000, if I recall correctly. Are you

saying that injections only got your levels up to about 500 before you

started HCG? How much were you injecting?

Thanks,

Eugene

[Guest guest]

I've asked my Doctor to always test E and she agreed. I also

occasionaly check DHEA and Progesterone. These both seem ok. BTW I

know what the insert says about Androgel becoming a steady state thing

but I don't believe its as stable as they say. Due to weird work

skeds and the times available for labs I was going 29 to 30 hours from

androgel application to tests and they were always pretty borderline

low. The last series I did was after 8 hours and I got a nice healthy

reading in the 700s. And I feel great btw!

> > > >

> > > > > I've spoken to my Doctor about my concerns over my

> > > > > testicular atrophy.

> > > > > He agreed that I was having a problem with this but

> > > > > suggested it

> > > > > might not continue or that it would be so slow as to

> > > > > not be noticable.

> > > > > Can anyone give me a clear idea what the " norm " is

> > > > > for this? Phil (I

> > > > > think) said expect a set of rasins in 15 to 20

> > > > > years. Is that pretty

> > > > > standard?

> > > > >

> > > > > BTW I know about Clomid and HCG. Talked to my Docs

> > > > > and they say no

> > > > > way for me.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >