Re: Indoplex with DIM

[Guest guest]

Logic says it would go too low faster than if u were on trt since it does not

have as far to go in order to be low. The the higher the dose of trt the higher

your E2 will be.

Kissie

Indoplex with Dim

Can taking a tablet of Indoplex with Dim daily with out any type of TRT drive

down your E2 levels to the point of them being too low. meaning if one has a T

to E2 ratio deficiency it says T levels can jump 200-300 points by simply

managing your E2. taking Indoplex with Dim is a start right?

---------------------------------

Personals

Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet.

Lots of someones, actually. Personals

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 13:33:26 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

>Can taking a tablet of Indoplex with Dim daily with out any type of TRT drive

down your E2 levels to the point of them being too low. meaning if one has a T

to E2 ratio deficiency it says T levels can jump 200-300 points by simply

managing your E2. taking Indoplex with Dim is a start right?

It can be . But you should confirm your E2 levels first. Many people

have low E2 levels as a result of low T production. There's not enough

T present to convert to a significant level of E2. This can be

dangerous resulting in low bone density and even osteoporosis. (Plus a

combined low E2 and low T effect which could crush libido, wood, etc.)

Others, especially overweight folks produce enough T but then have

that large conversion to E2 resulting in high E2 low T.

The trick is knowing which pool your in. get a test or you can really

mess yourself up with self medication without at least some basic

knowledge of what you're actually addressing.

- - - -

Just another albino black sheep

[Guest guest]

Jack yes if your E2 is high and your T is low getting the e2 down will in most

cases bring up you T levesl. Here is a link using Arimidex.

http://www.medibolics.com/ArimidexBoostsTestosterone.htm

So if you don't have it tested to be sure your low you can go down fast on a

pill a day of Indolplex/DIM. So here is what you need to do if you don't get

real hard morning wood and have ED problems along with a low libido. Start

taking one half of a tablet now I am talking about Indolplex/DIM if your doing a

different brand they come in caps and it is dam hard to cut the dose. Take this

half a pill everyday at dinner time. When it starts working you will get

morning wood so hard that it will wake you up. Keep taking the half a pill but

if the wood stops stop taking the Indolplex/DIM it means you went to low. In a

few days they will come back the day the wood starts again go back on the

Indolplex/DIM but cut the half a pill in half so your taking less. Keep doing

this until you find the right dose. If you have wood and no trouble with ED or

libido do it anyway and if your libido and the wood stops then stop the DIM

until it come back. It is a dam good gauge to keep from

going to low.

Phil

kissie2004@... wrote:

Logic says it would go too low faster than if u were on trt since it does not

have as far to go in order to be low. The the higher the dose of trt the higher

your E2 will be.

Kissie

Indoplex with Dim

Can taking a tablet of Indoplex with Dim daily with out any type of TRT drive

down your E2 levels to the point of them being too low. meaning if one has a T

to E2 ratio deficiency it says T levels can jump 200-300 points by simply

managing your E2. taking Indoplex with Dim is a start right?

---------------------------------

Personals

Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet.

Lots of someones, actually. Personals

[Guest guest]

I am still on the fence with this one. The study that shows DIM to be an

androgen blocker really swayed my thinking.

Jack <rockin813@...> wrote: Can taking a tablet of Indoplex with

Dim daily with out any type of TRT drive down your E2 levels to the point of

them being too low. meaning if one has a T to E2 ratio deficiency it says T

levels can jump 200-300 points by simply managing your E2. taking Indoplex with

Dim is a start right?

---------------------------------

Personals

Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet.

Lots of someones, actually. Personals

[Guest guest]

Me too. I was happy with lowering or manipulating E, but not happy

about anything that meddles with DHT.

Can taking a tablet of Indoplex

with Dim daily with out any type of TRT drive down your E2 levels to

the point of them being too low. meaning if one has a T to E2 ratio

deficiency it says T levels can jump 200-300 points by simply

managing your E2. taking Indoplex with Dim is a start right?

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Personals

> Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet.

> Lots of someones, actually. Personals

>

>

[Guest guest]

What Study can you give me a link. I understand it to convert E2 into better

E's so the liver can get rid of them.

http://www.dimfaq.com/index.htm

Phil

Kramer <bb1fit@...> wrote:

I am still on the fence with this one. The study that shows DIM to be an

androgen blocker really swayed my thinking.

Jack wrote: Can taking a tablet of Indoplex with Dim daily with out any

type of TRT drive down your E2 levels to the point of them being too low.

meaning if one has a T to E2 ratio deficiency it says T levels can jump 200-300

points by simply managing your E2. taking Indoplex with Dim is a start right?

---------------------------------

Personals

Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet.

Lots of someones, actually. Personals

[Guest guest]

DIM does not lower DHT as far as I can see my DHT is over the top 2200 and I

am trying every thing to get it down. Are you talking about this.

“DIM works by binding to the same receptor that DHT uses, so it's essentially

blocking the androgen from triggering the growth of the cancer cells. "

From this link.

http://www.lef.org/whatshot/2003_05.html#i3cb

It does not say it lowers DHT.

Phil

invest99_2000 <no_reply > wrote:

Me too. I was happy with lowering or manipulating E, but not happy

about anything that meddles with DHT.

Can taking a tablet of Indoplex

with Dim daily with out any type of TRT drive down your E2 levels to

the point of them being too low. meaning if one has a T to E2 ratio

deficiency it says T levels can jump 200-300 points by simply

managing your E2. taking Indoplex with Dim is a start right?

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Personals

> Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet.

> Lots of someones, actually. Personals

>

>

[Guest guest]

What Study can you give me a link. I understand it to convert

E2 into better E's so the liver can get rid of them.---

I do not know what study was cited, It is precious hard to find

legitimate sources of scientific information about DIM amidst all the

seller sites. This is one source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3,3'-diindolylmethane

This source

http://tinyurl.com/8ga2z

states that:

" I3C has been shown to block tumor initiation and promotion; however,

it also acts as a tumor promoter. I3C and some of its acid

condensation products, particularly 3,3'-diindolylmethane (I33'), have

exhibited antiestrogenic properties. " but concludes that " In trout,

results in vitro and in vivo document that I33' (3,3'-

diindolylmethane) is estrogenic, consistent with our hypothesis that

I3C promotes liver cancer in trout by estrogenic pathways. "

Obviously the second half of the first sentence has provided material

for DIM sellers to hawk their product as an anti-estrogenic product.

However this is not consistent with the study's overall conclusion.

The " DIM faq " site is promoting a book ( " All About DIM " ) authored by

A. Zeligs, M.D., and A. Connelly, M.D. who make a weak,

unsubstantiated hypothesis that " DIM helps to eliminate active

estrogen from the male body by promoting its conversion into

the 'good' estrogen metabolites. These metabolites then free up

testosterone by bumping it off the testosterone-binding proteins. "

This statement is a stretch considering that DIM inhibits testosterone

and has useful properties against androgen-driven cancer by curtailing

the action of testosterone.

(It also perpetuates the myth of " good " and " bad " estrogen. Estradiol

is the *active* form of estrogen and both men and women need this

hormone, albeit in quite different amounts. It is only " bad " if too

much or too little is present.)

Although there is not a direct link on the page, I'm quite willing to

bet this book of half truths has a financial connection to supplement

sellers of DIM such as this one:

http://www.primev.com/DIM.htm

A hallmark of supplement seller sites is a made-to-look-authentic

supposition followed by a long listing of medical sources at bottom

*without links*. If one searches for these unlinked clinical studies

you will find they have only the weakest of connections to the claims

made on the seller site. I have wasted hours doing this footwork in

the past. Suppositions that are backed directly by legitimate

research provide active links to their source material.

[Guest guest]

I did not think along the lines of it messing with DHT...more the fact of it

being an androgen blocker. This seems to totally contradict the reason we are

doing TRT.

Until I find out for sure, it is like soy protein to me. I avoid it like the

plague.

philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote:

DIM does not lower DHT as far as I can see my DHT is over the top 2200 and I

am trying every thing to get it down. Are you talking about this.

“DIM works by binding to the same receptor that DHT uses, so it's essentially

blocking the androgen from triggering the growth of the cancer cells. "

From this link.

http://www.lef.org/whatshot/2003_05.html#i3cb

It does not say it lowers DHT.

Phil

invest99_2000 <no_reply > wrote:

Me too. I was happy with lowering or manipulating E, but not happy

about anything that meddles with DHT.

Can taking a tablet of Indoplex

with Dim daily with out any type of TRT drive down your E2 levels to

the point of them being too low. meaning if one has a T to E2 ratio

deficiency it says T levels can jump 200-300 points by simply

managing your E2. taking Indoplex with Dim is a start right?

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Personals

> Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet.

> Lots of someones, actually. Personals

>

>

[Guest guest]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=1\

2665522 & dopt=Abstract

philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote: What Study can you give me a

link. I understand it to convert E2 into better E's so the liver can get rid of

them.

http://www.dimfaq.com/index.htm

Phil

Kramer <bb1fit@...> wrote:

I am still on the fence with this one. The study that shows DIM to be an

androgen blocker really swayed my thinking.

Jack wrote: Can taking a tablet of Indoplex with Dim daily with out any

type of TRT drive down your E2 levels to the point of them being too low.

meaning if one has a T to E2 ratio deficiency it says T levels can jump 200-300

points by simply managing your E2. taking Indoplex with Dim is a start right?

---------------------------------

Personals

Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet.

Lots of someones, actually. Personals

[Guest guest]

Now that I closely re-read the study, some misinterpretation on my part may have

taken place.

philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote: DIM does not lower DHT as far as

I can see my DHT is over the top 2200 and I am trying every thing to get it

down. Are you talking about this.

“DIM works by binding to the same receptor that DHT uses, so it's essentially

blocking the androgen from triggering the growth of the cancer cells. "

From this link.

http://www.lef.org/whatshot/2003_05.html#i3cb

It does not say it lowers DHT.

Phil

invest99_2000 <no_reply > wrote:

Me too. I was happy with lowering or manipulating E, but not happy

about anything that meddles with DHT.

Can taking a tablet of Indoplex

with Dim daily with out any type of TRT drive down your E2 levels to

the point of them being too low. meaning if one has a T to E2 ratio

deficiency it says T levels can jump 200-300 points by simply

managing your E2. taking Indoplex with Dim is a start right?

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Personals

> Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet.

> Lots of someones, actually. Personals

>

>

[Guest guest]

Phil,

Yes, that is the article, and these are the sentences that concern me:

" A study of the molecular structure of DIM showed that it is similar

to the androgen-blocking drug Casodex. Lead author Hien Le, PhD,

explained, " DIM works by binding to the same receptor that DHT uses,

so it's essentially blocking the androgen from triggering the growth

of the cancer cells. "

Perhaps in your case, it is not affecting DHT much, because your DHT

is so high. I'm still not sure how much of an affect it has on DHT. I

wish there were more studies on this.

Can taking a tablet of Indoplex

> with Dim daily with out any type of TRT drive down your E2 levels

to

> the point of them being too low. meaning if one has a T to E2 ratio

> deficiency it says T levels can jump 200-300 points by simply

> managing your E2. taking Indoplex with Dim is a start right?

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Personals

> > Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet.

> > Lots of someones, actually. Personals

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I guess this is why Dr. says to take TMG with DIM.

This link shows the battle over DIM that has been going on for some time now.

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2002/jan2002_report_i3c_01.html

Phil

Summers <rsummers@...> wrote:

What Study can you give me a link. I understand it to convert

E2 into better E's so the liver can get rid of them.---

I do not know what study was cited, It is precious hard to find

legitimate sources of scientific information about DIM amidst all the

seller sites. This is one source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3,3'-diindolylmethane

This source

http://tinyurl.com/8ga2z

states that:

" I3C has been shown to block tumor initiation and promotion; however,

it also acts as a tumor promoter. I3C and some of its acid

condensation products, particularly 3,3'-diindolylmethane (I33'), have

exhibited antiestrogenic properties. " but concludes that " In trout,

results in vitro and in vivo document that I33' (3,3'-

diindolylmethane) is estrogenic, consistent with our hypothesis that

I3C promotes liver cancer in trout by estrogenic pathways. "

Obviously the second half of the first sentence has provided material

for DIM sellers to hawk their product as an anti-estrogenic product.

However this is not consistent with the study's overall conclusion.

The " DIM faq " site is promoting a book ( " All About DIM " ) authored by

A. Zeligs, M.D., and A. Connelly, M.D. who make a weak,

unsubstantiated hypothesis that " DIM helps to eliminate active

estrogen from the male body by promoting its conversion into

the 'good' estrogen metabolites. These metabolites then free up

testosterone by bumping it off the testosterone-binding proteins. "

This statement is a stretch considering that DIM inhibits testosterone

and has useful properties against androgen-driven cancer by curtailing

the action of testosterone.

(It also perpetuates the myth of " good " and " bad " estrogen. Estradiol

is the *active* form of estrogen and both men and women need this

hormone, albeit in quite different amounts. It is only " bad " if too

much or too little is present.)

Although there is not a direct link on the page, I'm quite willing to

bet this book of half truths has a financial connection to supplement

sellers of DIM such as this one:

http://www.primev.com/DIM.htm

A hallmark of supplement seller sites is a made-to-look-authentic

supposition followed by a long listing of medical sources at bottom

*without links*. If one searches for these unlinked clinical studies

you will find they have only the weakest of connections to the claims

made on the seller site. I have wasted hours doing this footwork in

the past. Suppositions that are backed directly by legitimate

research provide active links to their source material.

[Guest guest]

I know it is very hard to find any good info with all the add's out there.

Try to find some good info on DHT I look far and wide. And this is all I found.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/reform8.htm

Phil

invest99_2000 <no_reply > wrote:

Phil,

Yes, that is the article, and these are the sentences that concern me:

" A study of the molecular structure of DIM showed that it is similar

to the androgen-blocking drug Casodex. Lead author Hien Le, PhD,

explained, " DIM works by binding to the same receptor that DHT uses,

so it's essentially blocking the androgen from triggering the growth

of the cancer cells. "

Perhaps in your case, it is not affecting DHT much, because your DHT

is so high. I'm still not sure how much of an affect it has on DHT. I

wish there were more studies on this.

Can taking a tablet of Indoplex

> with Dim daily with out any type of TRT drive down your E2 levels

to

> the point of them being too low. meaning if one has a T to E2 ratio

> deficiency it says T levels can jump 200-300 points by simply

> managing your E2. taking Indoplex with Dim is a start right?

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Personals

> > Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet.

> > Lots of someones, actually. Personals

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

And coming from that clown site(they mix so much fact with supposition) I would

look for more reputable sources.

philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote: I know it is very hard to find

any good info with all the add's out there. Try to find some good info on DHT I

look far and wide. And this is all I found.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/reform8.htm

Phil

invest99_2000 <no_reply > wrote:

Phil,

Yes, that is the article, and these are the sentences that concern me:

" A study of the molecular structure of DIM showed that it is similar

to the androgen-blocking drug Casodex. Lead author Hien Le, PhD,

explained, " DIM works by binding to the same receptor that DHT uses,

so it's essentially blocking the androgen from triggering the growth

of the cancer cells. "

Perhaps in your case, it is not affecting DHT much, because your DHT

is so high. I'm still not sure how much of an affect it has on DHT. I

wish there were more studies on this.

Can taking a tablet of Indoplex

> with Dim daily with out any type of TRT drive down your E2 levels

to

> the point of them being too low. meaning if one has a T to E2 ratio

> deficiency it says T levels can jump 200-300 points by simply

> managing your E2. taking Indoplex with Dim is a start right?

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Personals

> > Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet.

> > Lots of someones, actually. Personals

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I guess this is why Dr. says to take

TMG with DIM.-----

Nothing that is taken with DIM will alter its anti-androgenic

nature. (Just as nothing taken together with arimidex will turn this

anti-estrogen into an anti-androgen.)

--- " Research on I3C dates to the 1960s when it was investigated for

its actions against chemical carcinogens. Since that time,

researchers have been able to show that I3C has powerful and diverse

ways of stopping cancer. " ----

What this statement doesn't say is that the type of cancer that I3C

stops are *androgen-dependent* cancers (actually it *slows* cancer

growth rather than *stopping* it) and I3C works by removing

testosterone that the cancer could feed on.

----- This link shows the battle over DIM that has been going on for

some time now:

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2002/jan2002_report_i3c_01.html----

This link at a competitor's marketing site (life extension supplement

co) is part of a promotional war between two companies, each selling

DIM under their own brandname. For obvious reasons neither company

acknowledges the anti-androgenic properties of DIM and its precurser

I3C.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/reform8.htm

is another commercial site that sells supplements.

You are right; there is VERY little actual clinical data about this

substance online which is why sellers are able to misrepresent the

actions of this chemical and to make a quick buck off it.

I researched this substance very thoroughly before purchasing

letrozole since DIM is cheaper and readily available OTC. What I

found was just the opposite of what I expected and hoped to find.

[Guest guest]

Dim is worthless, never had anyone say they noticed a thing, just guessing about

ratios. forget it. use small amounts of letrozole or anastrozole to limit

production and liver detox products w/ milk thysil and LIV 52 to clear it from

the body

philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote: DIM does not lower DHT as far as

I can see my DHT is over the top 2200 and I am trying every thing to get it

down. Are you talking about this.

“DIM works by binding to the same receptor that DHT uses, so it's essentially

blocking the androgen from triggering the growth of the cancer cells. "

From this link.

http://www.lef.org/whatshot/2003_05.html#i3cb

It does not say it lowers DHT.

Phil

invest99_2000 <no_reply > wrote:

Me too. I was happy with lowering or manipulating E, but not happy

about anything that meddles with DHT.

Can taking a tablet of Indoplex

with Dim daily with out any type of TRT drive down your E2 levels to

the point of them being too low. meaning if one has a T to E2 ratio

deficiency it says T levels can jump 200-300 points by simply

managing your E2. taking Indoplex with Dim is a start right?

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Personals

> Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet.

> Lots of someones, actually. Personals

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dr emailed me when I questioned him about generic DIM vis

BioResponse DIM. His response was that he no longer recommended DIM,

but now IC3. I'm a patient of his, but he didn't tell me to stop the

DIM and switch, so I am up in the air on this until my next labs come

back.

> Re: Indoplex with Dim

>

>

>I guess this is why Dr. says to take TMG with DIM.

> This link shows the battle over DIM that has been going on

>for some time now.

> http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2002/jan2002_report_i3c_01.html

> Phil

>

> Summers <rsummers@...> wrote:

> What Study can you give me a link. I understand it to convert

>E2 into better E's so the liver can get rid of them.---

>

>I do not know what study was cited, It is precious hard to find

>legitimate sources of scientific information about DIM amidst all the

>seller sites. This is one source:

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3,3'-diindolylmethane

>This source

>http://tinyurl.com/8ga2z

>states that:

> " I3C has been shown to block tumor initiation and promotion; however,

>it also acts as a tumor promoter. I3C and some of its acid

>condensation products, particularly 3,3'-diindolylmethane (I33'), have

>exhibited antiestrogenic properties. " but concludes that " In trout,

>results in vitro and in vivo document that I33' (3,3'-

>diindolylmethane) is estrogenic, consistent with our hypothesis that

>I3C promotes liver cancer in trout by estrogenic pathways. "

>

>Obviously the second half of the first sentence has provided material

>for DIM sellers to hawk their product as an anti-estrogenic product.

>However this is not consistent with the study's overall conclusion.

>

>The " DIM faq " site is promoting a book ( " All About DIM " ) authored by

> A. Zeligs, M.D., and A. Connelly, M.D. who make a weak,

>unsubstantiated hypothesis that " DIM helps to eliminate active

>estrogen from the male body by promoting its conversion into

>the 'good' estrogen metabolites. These metabolites then free up

>testosterone by bumping it off the testosterone-binding proteins. "

>

>This statement is a stretch considering that DIM inhibits testosterone

>and has useful properties against androgen-driven cancer by curtailing

>the action of testosterone.

>

>(It also perpetuates the myth of " good " and " bad " estrogen. Estradiol

>is the *active* form of estrogen and both men and women need this

>hormone, albeit in quite different amounts. It is only " bad " if too

>much or too little is present.)

>

>Although there is not a direct link on the page, I'm quite willing to

>bet this book of half truths has a financial connection to supplement

>sellers of DIM such as this one:

>http://www.primev.com/DIM.htm

>

>A hallmark of supplement seller sites is a made-to-look-authentic

>supposition followed by a long listing of medical sources at bottom

>*without links*. If one searches for these unlinked clinical studies

>you will find they have only the weakest of connections to the claims

>made on the seller site. I have wasted hours doing this footwork in

>the past. Suppositions that are backed directly by legitimate

>research provide active links to their source material.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have been reading this at Meso I tried 1C3 and it did very little hell today

the Indolplex/DIM is doing little. I am taking .5 mgs. of Arimidex a day with a

120 mg. tablet of Indolplex/DIM. So I am doing much better and the price I am

paying is higher E2 levels well worth it. So doing the DIM it converts the E2

into good E's and doing the Arimidex blocks E2 so my Dr. says. Read this link

and make up your mind.

http://qualitycounts.com/fpdim.html

This link is full of links to 1C3 and DIM.

Phil

Dave <daultman@...> wrote:

Dr emailed me when I questioned him about generic DIM vis

BioResponse DIM. His response was that he no longer recommended DIM,

but now IC3. I'm a patient of his, but he didn't tell me to stop the

DIM and switch, so I am up in the air on this until my next labs come

back.

> Re: Indoplex with Dim

>

>

>I guess this is why Dr. says to take TMG with DIM.

> This link shows the battle over DIM that has been going on

>for some time now.

> http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2002/jan2002_report_i3c_01.html

> Phil

>

> Summers wrote:

> What Study can you give me a link. I understand it to convert

>E2 into better E's so the liver can get rid of them.---

>

>I do not know what study was cited, It is precious hard to find

>legitimate sources of scientific information about DIM amidst all the

>seller sites. This is one source:

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3,3'-diindolylmethane

>This source

>http://tinyurl.com/8ga2z

>states that:

> " I3C has been shown to block tumor initiation and promotion; however,

>it also acts as a tumor promoter. I3C and some of its acid

>condensation products, particularly 3,3'-diindolylmethane (I33'), have

>exhibited antiestrogenic properties. " but concludes that " In trout,

>results in vitro and in vivo document that I33' (3,3'-

>diindolylmethane) is estrogenic, consistent with our hypothesis that

>I3C promotes liver cancer in trout by estrogenic pathways. "

>

>Obviously the second half of the first sentence has provided material

>for DIM sellers to hawk their product as an anti-estrogenic product.

>However this is not consistent with the study's overall conclusion.

>

>The " DIM faq " site is promoting a book ( " All About DIM " ) authored by

> A. Zeligs, M.D., and A. Connelly, M.D. who make a weak,

>unsubstantiated hypothesis that " DIM helps to eliminate active

>estrogen from the male body by promoting its conversion into

>the 'good' estrogen metabolites. These metabolites then free up

>testosterone by bumping it off the testosterone-binding proteins. "

>

>This statement is a stretch considering that DIM inhibits testosterone

>and has useful properties against androgen-driven cancer by curtailing

>the action of testosterone.

>

>(It also perpetuates the myth of " good " and " bad " estrogen. Estradiol

>is the *active* form of estrogen and both men and women need this

>hormone, albeit in quite different amounts. It is only " bad " if too

>much or too little is present.)

>

>Although there is not a direct link on the page, I'm quite willing to

>bet this book of half truths has a financial connection to supplement

>sellers of DIM such as this one:

>http://www.primev.com/DIM.htm

>

>A hallmark of supplement seller sites is a made-to-look-authentic

>supposition followed by a long listing of medical sources at bottom

>*without links*. If one searches for these unlinked clinical studies

>you will find they have only the weakest of connections to the claims

>made on the seller site. I have wasted hours doing this footwork in

>the past. Suppositions that are backed directly by legitimate

>research provide active links to their source material.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I do believe after reading the research that IC3 is the better option.

Ron

Dave <daultman@...> wrote:

Dr emailed me when I questioned him about generic DIM vis

BioResponse DIM. His response was that he no longer recommended DIM,

but now IC3. I'm a patient of his, but he didn't tell me to stop the

DIM and switch, so I am up in the air on this until my next labs come

back.

> Re: Indoplex with Dim

>

>

>I guess this is why Dr. says to take TMG with DIM.

> This link shows the battle over DIM that has been going on

>for some time now.

> http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2002/jan2002_report_i3c_01.html

> Phil

>

> Summers <rsummers@...> wrote:

> What Study can you give me a link. I understand it to convert

>E2 into better E's so the liver can get rid of them.---

>

>I do not know what study was cited, It is precious hard to find

>legitimate sources of scientific information about DIM amidst all the

>seller sites. This is one source:

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3,3'-diindolylmethane

>This source

>http://tinyurl.com/8ga2z

>states that:

> " I3C has been shown to block tumor initiation and promotion; however,

>it also acts as a tumor promoter. I3C and some of its acid

>condensation products, particularly 3,3'-diindolylmethane (I33'), have

>exhibited antiestrogenic properties. " but concludes that " In trout,

>results in vitro and in vivo document that I33' (3,3'-

>diindolylmethane) is estrogenic, consistent with our hypothesis that

>I3C promotes liver cancer in trout by estrogenic pathways. "

>

>Obviously the second half of the first sentence has provided material

>for DIM sellers to hawk their product as an anti-estrogenic product.

>However this is not consistent with the study's overall conclusion.

>

>The " DIM faq " site is promoting a book ( " All About DIM " ) authored by

> A. Zeligs, M.D., and A. Connelly, M.D. who make a weak,

>unsubstantiated hypothesis that " DIM helps to eliminate active

>estrogen from the male body by promoting its conversion into

>the 'good' estrogen metabolites. These metabolites then free up

>testosterone by bumping it off the testosterone-binding proteins. "

>

>This statement is a stretch considering that DIM inhibits testosterone

>and has useful properties against androgen-driven cancer by curtailing

>the action of testosterone.

>

>(It also perpetuates the myth of " good " and " bad " estrogen. Estradiol

>is the *active* form of estrogen and both men and women need this

>hormone, albeit in quite different amounts. It is only " bad " if too

>much or too little is present.)

>

>Although there is not a direct link on the page, I'm quite willing to

>bet this book of half truths has a financial connection to supplement

>sellers of DIM such as this one:

>http://www.primev.com/DIM.htm

>

>A hallmark of supplement seller sites is a made-to-look-authentic

>supposition followed by a long listing of medical sources at bottom

>*without links*. If one searches for these unlinked clinical studies

>you will find they have only the weakest of connections to the claims

>made on the seller site. I have wasted hours doing this footwork in

>the past. Suppositions that are backed directly by legitimate

>research provide active links to their source material.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Don try doing a half a Indolplex/DIM your not that high and you could go down to

low to fast. If you get a better libido and some hard morning wood it means

your E2 came down but if it stops you went to low so stop using it until the

wood and libido comes back up. I was doing good on 1/4 of a tablet.

Phil

don defevers <dd4459@...> wrote:

Group received 300mgs.shot two weeks ago. T level went to 1529 at 6 days. E2

level was at 33 before shot T level was 323 before shot. Going on 1 tablet

indoplex with dim daily is this a good idea yes or no? Going back to doctor on

Friday

---------------------------------

for Good - Make a difference this year.

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 11:32:51 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

>Group received 300mgs.shot two weeks ago. T level went to 1529 at 6 days. E2

level was at 33 before shot T level was 323 before shot. Going on 1 tablet

indoplex with dim daily is this a good idea yes or no? Going back to doctor on

Friday

YOW! 300mgs is way too much. And 3 weeks in between is too long. The

preferred treatment is 100 mg every 7 to 10 days. And your numbers

show why. 1600 is high enough for bad side effects on blood pressure,

and cholesterol, etc. It will also result in a large conversion to E2

which will negate your benefits from the testosterone and cause you to

grow tits. And your 33 shows why 3 weeks is too long. That's a cruel

unnecessary roller coaster your doc has put you on. The AACE

guidelines say 7 to 10 days at 100 mg is the preferred regimen. But

suggests 200 every two weeks as a compromise between frequent visits

and desired benefits. (Screw that BTW).

I wouldn't be taking self help meds before lab tests. You should get

an E2 test and see where this silliness has put your E2 levels.

- - - -

Just another albino black sheep

[Guest guest]

From what you said, Dim did not do anything for you. If that

is true then I don't want to go that route. It takes too much

time and I don't have time to spare when it comes to experimenting.

I will continue on arimidex for awhile then I will see what

happens.

thanks for the post and experience,

Roy

>

> I tried it, religiously, over a period of one year. There were no

> differences in my period blood work showing and increase, or

decrease,

> in estrogen levels. I quite taking it. I have searched, to no

avail,

> and can find no study or any kind that shows that taking it makes any

> difference at all. Can anyone point me to scientific evidence, not

> " it works for me " , that establishes the validity of taking DIM to

> reduce estrogen levels in men on TRT?

> thank you

> norton

>

[Guest guest]

Indolplex/DIM will not lower your Estrogen it will lower your Estradiol E2 and

convert it into safer E's that your liver can get rid off.

All I have is this.

http://qualitycounts.com/fpdim.html

And this.

http://www.dimfaq.com/index.htm

Phil

nort828 <nort828@...> wrote:

I tried it, religiously, over a period of one year. There were no

differences in my period blood work showing and increase, or decrease,

in estrogen levels. I quite taking it. I have searched, to no avail,

and can find no study or any kind that shows that taking it makes any

difference at all. Can anyone point me to scientific evidence, not

" it works for me " , that establishes the validity of taking DIM to

reduce estrogen levels in men on TRT?

thank you

norton