Bacteria Theory(long and rambling....lol!)

[Guest guest]

- (it's a serendipitous " gestalt " , if you will), apparently arrived

at the notion that PA may best be understood through

psychoneuroimmunology...I get excited about this subject, and my

thoughts outrace my ability to type, and thn I get frustated waiting

for my fingers to catch up, afaid I will lose some critical thought

because I am mired in the mechanical management of the keyboard (I am

ashamedly, a hunt-n-pecker...). Anyway, I guess that's enough for now.

> D.]

>

> Hi ,

LOL! Your brain probably works faster than any typist's hands. add

PA and well....

I think I understand some of what you are saying. I am trying not to

get defensive about the subject because, having had fibro before

anyone knew what it was, I got the psychosomatic diagnosis and speech

from Docs. Just read an article by a Rheum that said they need to go

back and change all those somatic diagnoses to fibro now that they

know there is a physiological etiology. OK- so it isn't black or

white. The chemical interactions between mind and body are

connected.? Am I close?

I am someone that people can point to for almost any theory because

I have had so much go on in my life. Strep infection as a trigger?

yep, High stress? yep. Trauma? yep and on and on. I don't know

if this is related to why I developed such a severe form of the PA or

not.

I can relate by thinking of articles I have read that say childhood

trauma actually changes the body chemistry.

My father recently visited. He is almost 80 years old and feeling

guilty for my illnesses. He asked about the genetic component. I

explained that as far as I knew there were genes involved but there

also needed to be an environmental trigger. He replied... " well, you

had plenty of those "

A final question-does your psychoneuroimmunological theory mean we

can reverse disease by thought? This intrigues me but I think has

also been so oversimplified that is can be construed as another way

to blame the victim....just think positively and it will go away...or

my least favorite...I am never sick but then I just will myself not

to get sick and I don't (so I have less will power?)

A whole bunch of rambling...I would be interested in learning more....

Marti

P.S. for someone,like myself, who is spelling

challenged..psychoneuroimmunological is a handful...lol!

[Editor's Note: It is a handful..let's abbreviate it as PNI..much easier!

I agree completely with your sentiments about " blaming the victim " ...people who

do that sort of thing, or tell them it's all in their heads and they just have

to " think rightly " and they'll be OK...I think they should go and boil their own

heads, until they purge all such thoughts. We are talking about real,

endogenous, physical pathologies here. PNI does NOT posit that illness is

psychosomatic. You ask, " The chemical interactions between mind and body are

connected.? Am I close? " So close, you're right on top of it. I'm saying that

we have to (here in the western world; they understand the non-duality much more

clearly in Eastern philosophy) stop segregating mind and body. They are one! And

that " one " is something different from the simple addition of a physical and a

mental entity (gestalt=the whole is greater than the sum of the parts). For

those that think what I've just said sounds too new-agey, or whatever: look at

what happens in basic chemistry when you add a corrosive acid that could eat

through your hand (hydrochloric acid), and a caustic substance that would

dissolve that hand (sodium hydroxide): (HCl + NaOH = NaCl + H20) You get

ordinary table salt, and water. If such an amazing transformation is possible in

basic chemistry, what transformations, transmogrifications, transmutations, and

transcendances, are possible in the most complex psychobiochemical entity

extant--the human being? Just think of all the things we don't know yet, the

small percentage of the brain we can identify the purposes of (and keep in mind

how economical Mother Nature is--use it or lose it), and all the amazing,

seemingly impossible things (certain) people are capable of (walking barefoot

across hot coals, lighning calculation and other idiot savant manifestations,

et., etc.)--who is to say the mind, working its effect on the body's chemistry,

canot produce real, physical change? And, as to your point about reversing the

disease through mental effort: (1) remember, the mental vector was just one part

of the pathogenesis; (2) what if the disease process is like pregnancy (not that

I'm equating the two)? Once initiated, how would you " undo " it?

Anyway, I'm saying I agree with you that those who " blame the victim " as you

describe fail utterly to understand how human beings, and the disease process,

work. I agree that childhood trauma can actually change body chemistry; for that

matter, so can adult traumas, although perhaps to a lesser degree. I believe

that bacteria, viruses, genetics, psychology, the environment and every other

factor are capable of spawning the vectors which produce PA, and other diseases,

and that it would be simplistic to believe, with the little we currently know,

that there is only one way to get to these diseases.

And I'm with you, that this whole topic is fascinating, and worthy of

investigation. One member, , has suggested a poll be done, regarding the

member's ontogeny of their PA, to see if there were exposures to biological

pathogenesis (and I would add, psychological pathogenesis). What do you think

about such a poll?

D.]

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/13/03 6:07:41 AM Central Standard Time, mlw402@...

writes:

I think I understand some of what you are saying. I am trying not to

get defensive about the subject because, having had fibro before

anyone knew what it was, I got the psychosomatic diagnosis and speech

from Docs. Just read an article by a Rheum that said they need to go

back and change all those somatic diagnoses to fibro now that they

know there is a physiological etiology. OK- so it isn't black or

white. The chemical interactions between mind and body are

connected.? Am I close?

I am someone that people can point to for almost any theory because

I have had so much go on in my life. Strep infection as a trigger?

yep, High stress? yep. Trauma? yep and on and on. I don't know

if this is related to why I developed such a severe form of the PA or

not.

I can relate by thinking of articles I have read that say childhood

trauma actually changes the body chemistry.

My father recently visited. He is almost 80 years old and feeling

guilty for my illnesses. He asked about the genetic component. I

explained that as far as I knew there were genes involved but there

also needed to be an environmental trigger. He replied... " well, you

had plenty of those "

A final question-does your psychoneuroimmunological theory mean we

can reverse disease by thought? This intrigues me but I think has

also been so oversimplified that is can be construed as another way

to blame the victim....just think positively and it will go away...or

my least favorite...I am never sick but then I just will myself not

to get sick and I don't (so I have less will power?)

A whole bunch of rambling...I would be interested in learning more....

Marti

P.S. for someone,like myself, who is spelling

challenged..psychoneuroimmunological is a handful...lol!

[Editor's Note: It is a handful..let's abbreviate it as PNI..much easier!

I agree completely with your sentiments about " blaming the victim " ...people

who do that sort of thing, or tell them it's all in their heads and they just

have to " think rightly " and they'll be OK...I think they should go and boil

their own heads, until they purge all such thoughts. We are talking about real,

endogenous, physical pathologies here. PNI does NOT posit that illness is

psychosomatic. You ask, " The chemical interactions between mind and body are

connected.? Am I close? " So close, you're right on top of it. I'm saying

that we have to (here in the western world; they understand the non-duality much

more clearly in Eastern philosophy) stop segregating mind and body. They are

one! And that " one " is something different from the simple addition of a

physical and a mental entity (gestalt=the whole is greater than the sum of the

parts). For those that think what I've just said sounds too new-agey, or

whatever:

look at what happens in basic chemistry when you add a corrosive acid that

could eat through your hand (hydrochloric acid), and a caustic substance that

would dissolve that hand (sodium hydroxide): (HCl + NaOH = NaCl + H20) You get

ordinary table salt, and water. If such an amazing transformation is possible in

basic chemistry, what transformations, transmogrifications, transmutations,

and transcendances, are possible in the most complex psychobiochemical entity

extant--the human being? Just think of all the things we don't know yet, the

small percentage of the brain we can identify the purposes of (and keep in mind

how economical Mother Nature is--use it or lose it), and all the amazing,

seemingly impossible things (certain) people are capable of (walking barefoot

across hot coals, lighning calculation and other idiot savant manifestations,

et.,

etc.)--who is to say the mind, working its effect on the body's chemistry,

canot produce real, physical change? And, as to your point about reversing the

disease through mental effort: (1) remember, the mental vector was just one

part of the pathogenesis; (2) what if the disease process is like pregnancy (not

that I'm equating the two)? Once initiated, how would you " undo " it?

Anyway, I'm saying I agree with you that those who " blame the victim " as you

describe fail utterly to understand how human beings, and the disease process,

work. I agree that childhood trauma can actually change body chemistry; for

that matter, so can adult traumas, although perhaps to a lesser degree. I

believe that bacteria, viruses, genetics, psychology, the environment and every

other factor are capable of spawning the vectors which produce PA, and other

diseases, and that it would be simplistic to believe, with the little we

currently

know, that there is only one way to get to these diseases.

And I'm with you, that this whole topic is fascinating, and worthy of

investigation. One member, , has suggested a poll be done, regarding the

member's ontogeny of their PA, to see if there were exposures to biological

pathogenesis (and I would add, psychological pathogenesis). What do you think

about

such a poll?

D.]

you continue to amase me with your language mastery. No other person

sends me running for the dictionary more often than you. Your abilty to

shoehorn a 12 dollar word into a 2 dollar sentence is unsurpassed. LOL I will

agree

with the abreviation PNI.

First of I will give an easy to see example of how the mind can affect the

body. Youre walking down a dark alleyway in an unfamiliar city. Already your

perception, jaded by past experience, real or imagined, are having an effect

on the chemicals that control your body and eventually all of its processes

will be affected to one degree or another. Your thoughts cause chemical

messengers to be sent out that bump up the hypothalimus a notch. Hypothalimus

makes

chemistry that affects many others but one of the first organs to respond are

the adrenals. Blood sugar begins to rise to enable an explosive burst of energy

if necessary. Your nostrils flare and your eyes are wide open, you may even

unknowingly clench your fists. Your gate will become more stiff. Your ears

become more sensitive your heart and respiratory rates rise a bit. In effect

you

are a coiled spring ready to bounce.

Ok now a tin can falls over making a noise. BAM the thoughts that raced

through your mind in that split second before your senses, even in an already

heightened state of awareness, have sent confirming signals whether it is

something to react to or not has already released the chemistry that will kick

the

hypothalimus up 3 more notches. Within the seconds that follow is a more

significant rise in adrenal hormone output. Heart and respiriation go up again,

body

temperature may begin to rise due to increased metabolism, peripheral blood

flow slows down as the skin becomes taught making the hair on the back of your

neck stand up, stomach and intestines cease digestion and tighten up to keep

everything in place should you have to sprint the 40 yard dash in under 2

seconds. Perspiration begins. Enough you get the idea. Now in that scenario

there was no physical trauma, only a thought process that changed body chemistry

just the same as if you had been injured. Perceived potential threat,

emotional stress.

The immune system responds some time after the acute stress event has

subsided. You got away from the lion hiding in the alleyway without being eaten,

now it's time to turn that energy to healing those bites and claw gashes to

prevent infection. Whether you were actually injured or just scared, the

chemistry

is the same, the process will carry on. If no chemical messengers are

signalling injury then the chemistry fades back to normal.

If that were a one time deal, a few hours later your body will have for the

most part stabilised back to baseline though you may not sleep well that night

and you may have a loose stool or other digestive disturbance the next day due

to the delay in the digestive process. But what happens if some thought

process triggers those chemical cascades once a day? Or 20 times a day? The

liver

and pancreas become touchy from being called upon to dump sugar each time

acute stress occurs. The raw ingredients used by the adrenals to make hormones

is

depleted. So the ratiometric mix of adrenal hormones, upwards of 50 distinct

hormones, is shifted. You're all out of whack by that time. Mind can in fact

rule over matter.

If a set of environmental conditions arise that cause repetitive emotional

stresses and then a physical stressor is added in, such as strep throat, the

physiological effects may become severe. The immune system is ovewhelmed and

must

prioritise tasks.

Ok you survived the strep throat but your immune system and adrenals are in

imbalanced states. The mix of hormones is all messed up due to depletion of

raw ingredients. The normal set of chemical messengers, which could be likened

to a network of radios, is not working properly, everybody is talking at once.

So the signals get mixed up. 50 different soldiers get on the radio at the

same time " You talkin to me? " and the general replies " Yes " to one in particular

but all hear the command and respond.

Once there is actual physical damage, such as inflamed tendons or broken

skin, then the immune system stays keyed up. Unless something can be done to

interrupt the source of stress while at the same time interrupting the immune

activity the cycle may continue. It may not be enough to just approach the

problem

from one angle while leaving the other to continue on erroneously.

A certain set of factors all came together at the same time to cause the

psoriasis to appear and even if you could backtrack each and every step along

the

way to that converging moment you might not be able to undo it. Perhaps the

emergence of psoriasis in a person could be likened to a metamorphasis of the

immune system. Like a child that learned a bad word and made a habit of using

it, that habit may persist indefinately unless someone can figure out how to

retrain the child. The child will grow to an adult still possessive of the

knowledge of the bad word, but it may be possible to teach him not to utter it.

Old habits are hard to break. " Nip it in the bud Andy. " We have seen members

of this board who were diagnosed and treated early who do not develop the

disease as severely. Not always the case but enough so to make that a general

rule. I will bet that at least a hundred times it has been said on this board

that early intervention and aggressive treatment to halt the progression of PA

portends to a brighter prognosis for the future. Looking at the potty mouth

child analogy again we can see that if we take corrective action on that child

immediatly to stop them saying the bad word the chances of them continuing to

use that word from now on are reduced. If on the other hand we allow the child

to speak the unspeakable for 3 years before making any effort at convincing

them it is wrong well then its gonna take a lot more persuasion to archive that

word.

I remember a time when a man I worked for suggested that psoriasis was a

psychosomatic disease. I became offended, defensive and angry at the mention

that

it was all in my head. Years later I again became aggravated at finding in

medical literature similar suggestions combined with more easily measured and

categorized physical factors that negatively influence the condition. I've come

full circle after an extensive period of researching medical journals earlier

this year. There is a mind/body connection associated with psoriasis. The

universal observation that " stress makes psoriasis worse " is the most simple and

clear cut proof. In the context of stress/psoriasis relationship the stress

is more often originally derived through mental processes than by actual

physical stress such as a broken arm.

So my opinion is that genetics, environmental factors including exposure to

both chemical and biological pathogens and exposure to emotionally traumatic

situations all set the trap for developing psoriasis. And any successful

treatment, retraining of the immune system, must also account for those factors,

less

of course genetics which we can't intentionally modify, yet. Orin

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/12/2003 9:57:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, mlw402 writes:

> A final question-does your psychoneuroimmunological theory

> mean we

> can reverse disease by thought?

Hi Marti, you might be interested in a book that I read called " why zebras don't

get ulcers " ...it does a pretty good job of explaining how stress (a somewhat

controllable factor) impacts illness. The basic idea of the book is that our

bodies were designed to handle short bursts of intense stress (fight or flight

response when predators caused our main stress), and that our current lifestyles

(involving more long term stress) have happened so quickly that biologically, we

have not been able to evolve quick enough to respond. Therefore long term

stress (involving production of cortisol and adrenaline which can be toxic over

the long term) can make us sicker than our bodies can handle. The chapters all

describe how long term stress impacts different illness, and there is one

chapter on autoimmune disease in general.

I am getting ready to read a few other books on PNI (just went on short term

disability, so I have some extra time:-) so I will keep you all posted if there

is anything else of interest.

[Guest guest]

- I believe that bacteria, viruses, genetics, psychology, the

environment and every other factor are capable of spawning the

vectors which produce PA, and other diseases, and that it would be

simplistic to believe, with the little we currently know, that there

is only one way to get to these diseases.

>

> And I'm with you, that this whole topic is fascinating, and worthy

of investigation. One member, , has suggested a poll be done,

regarding the member's ontogeny of their PA, to see if there were

exposures to biological pathogenesis (and I would add, psychological

pathogenesis). What do you think about such a poll?

>

> D.]

Hi ,

You explained it all very well. Thanks. I think I have a good handle

on what you are talking about now. I sure will participate in the

poll. It would be interesting. Wow! If all these things can

contribute to the development of PA how do we look for the cure?

Best,

Marti

[Ed.Note: I would guess that not all of them contribute (although, given what we

know now, they all may). At least I hope not. The answer may be found when the

body's mechanisms are better understood--or, more likely, a cure will be found

serendipitously, by someone looking to cure something else...

D.]

[Guest guest]

" Tis the season to voice an opinion on this, so I'll weigh in, too. If the

cause of P/PA is environmental or emotional, then everyone who ever faced

childhood trauma would have the disease. Everyone in NYC who was there when

the towers fell would be walking with a limp and covered in sores. The fact

that we're not, means that there must be things at play in addition to, or

other than, trauma and the environment. "

" The fact is, we just don't know and because we don't, we should neither

rule out bacterial sources nor should we assume them to be the genesis of

PA. "

Good point there Kathy and this is where genes can come in, for example in

Lung cancer it is known that a Gene defect can cause you up to 10 times more

likely to get Lung cancer, wether or not you smoke. So for example somebody

who never smokes get's lung cancer because they have the rogue gene. If

somebody smokes but hasn't got the gene they may never get Lung cancer even

if they smoke 60 a day !! hence you here about people smoking into there

90's. On the other hand you have people who smoke and have got this gene,and

they will 100 % get lung cancer. By the way i smoke, Just pray I haven't got

another dodgy gene in the system, to go with My HLa-B27 one!!

The thing with the Pregnancy is very interesting and the fact that the

symptoms lessen may be to do with the fact that Women produce more Hormones

in the system at this time, which may have an effect on the TNF in their

system. But as I have said TNF is produced from an Immune response and we

have tonnes of the stuff in our system, what is our Immune system responding

too?? Is it Bacterial or Chemical? If it is chemical the main suspect for me

would have to be Plastic or new cleaning products that we use daily, as

auto-immune diseases seem to be getting more popular year on year especially

as we get cleaner and cleaner,or Bacterial which is what i have already said

is my main Suspect. (MY own Opinion, not science Fact)

Anyway My head is about to explode so I going to have a ciggerate to mellow

out!! No not that kind of Ciggarette before you ask!! lol

rin wrote:

So my opinion is that genetics, environmental factors including exposure to

both chemical and biological pathogens and exposure to emotionally traumatic

situations all set the trap for developing psoriasis. And any successful

treatment, retraining of the immune system, must also account for those

factors, less

of course genetics which we can't intentionally modify, yet. Orin

That about sums it up Orin !! We will probably never know in our lifetime !

:-(

Micky

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[Guest guest]

On with the poll...Sylvia

Ed. Note There have been discussions regarding the creation of a comprehensive

database covering every imaginable influence, good or bad, on the course of

psoriatic conditions. The polling functionality of is better than

nothing but falls short in many ways, among which are the limitations on method

of response, method of statistic calculation and inability to build a chart on

an individual from the info contained in the individual questions. This may be a

massive undertaking requiring a lot of time and effort to bring into a working

model so it has been slow to get off the ground. I personally have trouble

deciding how much detail the line of questioning should go in to but considering

that each person has so many suspected triggers may require a microscopic study

to draw a clear big picture showing common factors from one participant to the

next. One problem that I foresee is that the volume of data involved may become

a full time job for someone to manage if data entry is not automated to some

extent. Between the Holidays and personal responsibilities my time has been

tight so my participation in the development doesnt hold priority at the moment.

I hope that within the next year we will be able to get something together.

Orin

snowbound22003 <mlw402@...> wrote:- I believe that bacteria, viruses,

genetics, psychology, the

environment and every other factor are capable of spawning the

vectors which produce PA, and other diseases, and that it would be

simplistic to believe, with the little we currently know, that there

is only one way to get to these diseases.

>

> And I'm with you, that this whole topic is fascinating, and worthy

of investigation. One member, , has suggested a poll be done,

regarding the member's ontogeny of their PA, to see if there were

exposures to biological pathogenesis (and I would add, psychological

pathogenesis). What do you think about such a poll?

>

> D.]

Hi ,

You explained it all very well. Thanks. I think I have a good handle

on what you are talking about now. I sure will participate in the

poll. It would be interesting. Wow! If all these things can

contribute to the development of PA how do we look for the cure?

Best,

Marti

[Ed.Note: I would guess that not all of them contribute (although, given what we

know now, they all may). At least I hope not. The answer may be found when the

body's mechanisms are better understood--or, more likely, a cure will be found

serendipitously, by someone looking to cure something else...

D.]

Please visit our Psoriatic Arthritis Group's informational web page at:

http://www.wpunj.edu/pa/ -- created and edited by list member

aka(raharris@...).

Also,in August 2001,list member Jack aka Cornishpro@... began to

conduct extensive research which he publishes as the " Psoriatic Arthritis

Research Newsletter " , monthly in our email and digest format. Many thanks to

Jack. Back issues of the newsletter are stored on our PA webpage as well as the

archives of the list.

Don't forget that the list archives comprise a tremendous amount of information

(Over three years of messages and answers).Feel free to browse them at your

convenience.

LET'S HEAR FROM SOME OF YOU LURKERS out there! If you have a comment or

question, chances are there is a person who has been around a while who can help

you out with AT LEAST an educated guess for an answer! If not,we can steer you

in the right direction with a good website to go to,

Blessings and Peace,

Atwood-Stack, Founder

Alan , Web & List Editor

Jack , Newsletter Editor

Pat Bias, List Editor

Ron Dotson, List Editor

Orin, List Editor

, List Editor

and any others who help in any way (thank you!)