was:Re: Clarification of a message: now: rebellion and mercury b

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: andrewhallcutler

> We homeschool. If I sent her to school, I pretty much guarantee with her

attitude she

would get kicked out.

Only AFTER she got pregnant and addicted to drugs.

====>One of my clients who was homeschooled managed both of these.

Public schools are a bureaucracy just like medicine is - it is important to

have a realistic

attitude towards it.

====>Two of the " fabulous five " I spoke of earlier were completely home

schooled, a third home schooled until she was 8, then put in a very acceptable

private school. Only two were the products of public school, doesn't seem to

matter.

Anymore, private schools are the dumping ground for kids who can't make it in

public school. Homeschooling past a certain point 10 or 12 is, IMHO, not

advisable as I have known several children homeschooled and sent off to college

and they don't do so well. At some point you have to expose them to the

craziness of the world and teach them how to live with it.

Unless they're going to be involved in some kind of totally solitary work,

they have to learn to deal with people.

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: andrewhallcutler

I had this argument with an old friend who just found me on the web a few

months ago.

He thinks public education is crucial for giving everyone some common

grounding in

assumptions and knowledge so they don't argue about everything all the time.

====>Common knowledge, we had, but I must have been absent from school the day

they taught that everyone had to have the same assumptions, and really absent ,

the day they taught the " no arguing " thing.

I do remember a couple of teachers in high school not appreciating my opinion

but my father had told me that there is always a price for having a different

opinion and to make sure you could pay it, before you expressed it. And that if

I expressed my opinion respectfully, he would back me up, if need be.

This was more of a problem in graduate school where your grades depend on

regurgitating back to the many damaged professors, what they wanted to hear. I

always said I got my good grades in graduate school, irrespective of my

behavior, not because of it.====>

However one thing that tends to be conveyed in public schools preciselybecause

they are

bureaucracies is to be able to talk to people and not get agitated when they

don't agree

with you. This basic virtue is essential to the kind of vigorous debate that

we need to keep

society vital.

===>I had to teach myself to do this, or, maybe I only think I did :-) I do

think it's important as people tend to ignore or discount the overemotional

responses of others, particularly women! I had to learn how to deal with

judges, lawyers (they had control of the decisions over the kids I was trying to

help, mess up and the kids got hurt) and administrators of insurance companies.

I learned from their example (mostly men) to remain calm. When people are too

distraught or angry we often say " They don't mean what they are saying, they're

angry or upset. "

I don't want people to dismiss what I say, and when I was younger I had some

problems with people taking me seriously, so I make a concerted effort to remain

calm and I've found the more calm I can be while staying on point, the more

people actually/usually listen to what I'm saying, so it's worth the effort.

My experience has been that even compelling points are seldom accepted or

perceived immediately so in order to 'win arguments' you have to keep them

calm enough

the other person can go home and spend some time thinking things through.

====>Yes, that is what Dana's response did for me, made me think and realize

that she had very different experiences, a whole other world view and those

experiences are valid and important to consider.

Because she had reasoned, calm responses I was not able to dismiss them by

thinking she was a jerk and I actually got some new knowledge from what she

said.

[Guest guest]

I suppose the same person would like to see the dissolution of the Oxford

Debating Club?? Over my dead body :-)))))

Re: [ ] was:Re: Clarification of a message: now:

rebellion and mercury b

----- Original Message -----

From: andrewhallcutler

I had this argument with an old friend who just found me on the web a few

months ago.

He thinks public education is crucial for giving everyone some common

grounding in

assumptions and knowledge so they don't argue about everything all the time.

====>Common knowledge, we had, but I must have been absent from school the day

they taught that everyone had to have the same assumptions, and really absent ,

the day they taught the " no arguing " thing.

I do remember a couple of teachers in high school not appreciating my opinion

but my father had told me that there is always a price for having a different

opinion and to make sure you could pay it, before you expressed it. And that if

I expressed my opinion respectfully, he would back me up, if need be.

This was more of a problem in graduate school where your grades depend on

regurgitating back to the many damaged professors, what they wanted to hear. I

always said I got my good grades in graduate school, irrespective of my

behavior, not because of it.====>

However one thing that tends to be conveyed in public schools preciselybecause

they are

bureaucracies is to be able to talk to people and not get agitated when they

don't agree

with you. This basic virtue is essential to the kind of vigorous debate that

we need to keep

society vital.

===>I had to teach myself to do this, or, maybe I only think I did :-) I do

think it's important as people tend to ignore or discount the overemotional

responses of others, particularly women! I had to learn how to deal with judges,

lawyers (they had control of the decisions over the kids I was trying to help,

mess up and the kids got hurt) and administrators of insurance companies. I

learned from their example (mostly men) to remain calm. When people are too

distraught or angry we often say " They don't mean what they are saying, they're

angry or upset. "

I don't want people to dismiss what I say, and when I was younger I had some

problems with people taking me seriously, so I make a concerted effort to remain

calm and I've found the more calm I can be while staying on point, the more

people actually/usually listen to what I'm saying, so it's worth the effort.

My experience has been that even compelling points are seldom accepted or

perceived immediately so in order to 'win arguments' you have to keep them

calm enough

the other person can go home and spend some time thinking things through.

====>Yes, that is what Dana's response did for me, made me think and realize

that she had very different experiences, a whole other world view and those

experiences are valid and important to consider.

Because she had reasoned, calm responses I was not able to dismiss them by

thinking she was a jerk and I actually got some new knowledge from what she

said.

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: danasview

I would love to receive a voucher, provided I could use the money to

fund his program at home.

===>I believe it is only to be used for schools.

Most schools around here are already over-enrolled.

===>True for her school now, they have closed open enrollment in her school as

there simply aren't enough seats for all the parents' who would like their child

to attend. But it does illustrate that public schools' can be good and that

parents', even the ones who went to public school, can recognize a good school.

Being that this is a government school, I would not trust them to

implement the opt out program. And personally, I would prefer an " opt

in " program, with those classes as electives.

===>They can't by law, not allow you to opt out. This " opt out " is probably

the government at work, they would be the ones who " set " certain parts of the

curriculum, but have nicely left an out for parents' who don't want certain

things taught.

In my dd " s case, I would have allowed her to hear the Evolution argument, as

they taught both in her private, non-religious school, but my dh had a lot of

energy around her not hearing it, and he won.

What does your child do during the time the other kids are in the

classes you have opted out of?

====>The Evolution part of the curriculum was only a couple of 20 minute

sessions, so she hung out with the prinicipal (private school). The sex ed

class was 6 weeks so she had Independent Study on a health matter, she wrote a

paper on Alcoholism/Drug Abuse and the stages of Addiction. (public high school,

we had moved by this time, so same school sys. as dgd).

>>We also don't see any bad behavior coming home, we have

surmised this is because inappropriate behavior in school is swiftly

and firmly

dealt with, I've seen this for myself.

Well that is a point in this school's favor. Hopefully you will find

a similar situation in high school. My #1 says that as soon as adults

are not nearby, about 90% of the time most kids his age are talking

about sex.

===>Oh dear, given your earlier description I'm surprised they had the good

manners to wait until the adults weren't present.

The high school wasn't as good as the dgd's elementary school. But it more

closely mirrored the variance in people the dd was going to encounter in 4 short

years when she went away to college. This was exactly what we thought it

important for her to experience.

There were all kinds of kids from all kinds of families, but the kids for the

most part were fairly decent and dd managed to find some really nice friends,

some of whom she still has today. I do remember the principal being a complete

airhead, promoted from ineffective guidance counselor on the Principle,

much like you'll find in real life employment situations, and dd and I had some

good conversations about this.

My goal was not to shelter her at this point from people, but the exact

opposite, to expose her. Bad analogy, but the best I can come up with is that

you never know if the dog is really trained until you let it off the leash.

Thanks for the discussion, I did learn something. I think I now better

understand the hopes and fears of the homeschooling parent.

[Guest guest]

> I would love to receive a voucher, provided I could use the money to

> fund his program at home.

>

> ===>I believe it is only to be used for schools.

Typical. More of the state self-perpetuating its own programs and its

own philosophy of what is " best " for your child.

> In my dd " s case, I would have allowed her to hear the Evolution

argument, as they taught both in her private, non-religious school,

but my dh had a lot of energy around her not hearing it, and he won.

My #1 has watched debates on evolution. He has heard both sides. He

knows what sounds right, and what sounds wrong. I just disagree that

kids would be taught one side only, and at such a young age.

Definitely indoctrination.

> ===>Oh dear, given your earlier description I'm surprised they had

the good manners to wait until the adults weren't present.

Sadly, these are kids from his youth group and his Boy Scout troop,

many of which attend public schools, some attend private schools.

[Today's society is so pervasive and corrupt.] Both groups are

affiliated with churches [two different churches], so the kids have at

least that much sense.

>>I do remember the principal being a complete airhead, promoted from

ineffective guidance counselor on the Principle, much like

you'll find in real life employment situations, and dd and I had some

good conversations about this.

I worked for a boss like this in the past. His name was,

appropriately, .

> My goal was not to shelter her at this point from people, but the

exact opposite, to expose her. Bad analogy, but the best I can come up

with is that you never know if the dog is really trained until you let

it off the leash.

Yes, but in my opinion, a child of younger years should not be placed

into such an environment. An older child can have limited

experiences, depending on the age and maturity of the child.

> Thanks for the discussion, I did learn something. I think I now

better understand the hopes and fears of the homeschooling parent.

Same as the hopes and fears of almost all parents. We just choose to

address them differently.

Dana