Re: Does everyone here use Cutler's protocol?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 05/11/2007 23:58:39 GMT Standard Time,

byrnejeanne@... writes:

I feel that for us it's either 8-hours

or nothing, and I do want to do something now.

>>You could use DMPS which gets dosed 8 hourly anyways Voila!

Mandi in UK

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 06/11/2007 02:28:02 GMT Standard Time,

stacie@... writes:

I'm very new to all of this. Why does McCandless' book Children

w/Starving Brains say that 4 or 8 hour protocols are okay? She

doesn't mention anything about redistribution to vital organs w/the 8

hour protocols. Any suggestions on further reading for this issue?

>>Lots of info here

_http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/_ (http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/)

See links on that site for Andy Cutlers books

Mandi in UK

[Guest guest]

Hi Jeanne,

The risk of redistribution with the 8 hour protocol is so high that you are

actually better off doing nothing, rather than risk redistribution to vital

organs. Sometimes the damage is not seen for weeks/months. I hope your dd

becomes more cooperative.

[ ] Does everyone here use Cutler's protocol?

Is anyone here chelating with the 8-hour schedule? I know, I've read

all the reasons for doing it every 3-4 hours, but with the level of

cooperation I get from my daughter right now on supplement taking I

just don't think it's feasible. I feel that for us it's either 8-hours

or nothing, and I do want to do something now.

If I do this is there something to look for that would show that the 8-

hr rounds are causing problems?

Thanks, please don't jump all over me for this question.

Jeanne

[Guest guest]

>

> Is anyone here chelating with the 8-hour schedule?

You can dose DMPS at 6-8 h intervals

I know, I've read

> all the reasons for doing it every 3-4 hours, but with the level of

> cooperation I get from my daughter right now on supplement taking I

> just don't think it's feasible. I feel that for us it's either 8-hours

> or nothing,

You would be better off doing nothing if you are not going to dose ALA

at 3 h intervals and DMSA at 4 h intervals or less

and I do want to do something now.

> If I do this is there something to look for that would show that the 8-

> hr rounds are causing problems?

By the time you detect there are problems the damage will likely be

irreversible. The only possible way to correct the damage would be to

chelate correctly, which you are saying above that your daughter is

resistant to doing, so until you can get compliance from your daughter

you are better off not to chelate at all.

J

> Thanks, please don't jump all over me for this question.

> Jeanne

>

[Guest guest]

I'm very new to all of this. Why does McCandless' book Children

w/Starving Brains say that 4 or 8 hour protocols are okay? She

doesn't mention anything about redistribution to vital organs w/the 8

hour protocols. Any suggestions on further reading for this issue?

Thanks!

Stacie

>

> Hi Jeanne,

>

> The risk of redistribution with the 8 hour protocol is so high that

you are actually better off doing nothing, rather than risk

redistribution to vital organs. Sometimes the damage is not seen for

weeks/months. I hope your dd becomes more cooperative.

>

>

>

> [ ] Does everyone here use Cutler's protocol?

>

>

> Is anyone here chelating with the 8-hour schedule? I know, I've read

> all the reasons for doing it every 3-4 hours, but with the level of

> cooperation I get from my daughter right now on supplement taking I

> just don't think it's feasible. I feel that for us it's either

8-hours

> or nothing, and I do want to do something now.

> If I do this is there something to look for that would show that

the 8-

> hr rounds are causing problems?

> Thanks, please don't jump all over me for this question.

> Jeanne

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> >

> > Hi Jeanne,

> >

> > The risk of redistribution with the 8 hour protocol is so high that

> you are actually better off doing nothing, rather than risk

> redistribution to vital organs. Sometimes the damage is not seen for

> weeks/months. I hope your dd becomes more cooperative.

> >

> >

> >

> > [ ] Does everyone here use Cutler's protocol?

> >

> >

> > Is anyone here chelating with the 8-hour schedule? I know, I've

read

> > all the reasons for doing it every 3-4 hours, but with the level of

> > cooperation I get from my daughter right now on supplement taking I

> > just don't think it's feasible. I feel that for us it's either

> 8-hours

> > or nothing, and I do want to do something now.

> > If I do this is there something to look for that would show that

> the 8-

> > hr rounds are causing problems?

> > Thanks, please don't jump all over me for this question.

> > Jeanne

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi

We are using High dose 8 hour protocol as suggested by Dr. Neubrander.

He is doing fine with it . already showing little improvements.

Finished with 4 cycles.

>

> Is anyone here chelating with the 8-hour schedule? I know, I've read

> all the reasons for doing it every 3-4 hours, but with the level of

> cooperation I get from my daughter right now on supplement taking I

> just don't think it's feasible. I feel that for us it's either 8-

hours

> or nothing, and I do want to do something now.

> If I do this is there something to look for that would show that the

8-

> hr rounds are causing problems?

> Thanks, please don't jump all over me for this question.

> Jeanne

>

[Guest guest]

> >

> > Is anyone here chelating with the 8-hour schedule? I know, I've read

> > all the reasons for doing it every 3-4 hours, but with the level of

> > cooperation I get from my daughter right now on supplement taking I

> > just don't think it's feasible. I feel that for us it's either 8-

> hours

> > or nothing, and I do want to do something now.

> > If I do this is there something to look for that would show that the

> 8-

> > hr rounds are causing problems?

> > Thanks, please don't jump all over me for this question.

> > Jeanne

> >

>

[Guest guest]

This will not be a popular answer on this group but we use Buttar's

protocol with wonderful results (IV protocol with DMPS, EDTA, GSH and

PC flush). Our daughter is dumping loads of lead and aluminum (and now

finally getting the mercury) since starting(both lead and aluminum are

in the red zone of the DDI urine tox panel--I live in NY and we are

not allowed to do stool and hair testing here) We had tried the Cutler

protocol for about 2 months with very negative results that we have

never seen with Buttar. Obviously every kid is different and every

result is different. With the Cutler way (and I followed it to a T)

She became extremely emotional/moody/crying and just bad behaviors in

general (mostly on the Monday-Tuesday after stopping--

REDISTRIBUTION????) Even with the Cutler way there will be a

redistribution effect. We chose to do the IV protocol as per Dr Buttar

after we felt the Cutler way was not working--never saw metals comming

out with the oral route at this schedule. We see a doctor here on Long

Island that was trained by Dr Buttar and I feel for my daughter this

has been hands down the best thing we have done so far. You might want

to ask those on the ChelatingKids2 people because they

are more DAN oriented group.

Tina

>

> Is anyone here chelating with the 8-hour schedule? I know, I've read

> all the reasons for doing it every 3-4 hours, but with the level of

> cooperation I get from my daughter right now on supplement taking I

> just don't think it's feasible. I feel that for us it's either 8-

hours

> or nothing, and I do want to do something now.

> If I do this is there something to look for that would show that the

8-

> hr rounds are causing problems?

> Thanks, please don't jump all over me for this question.

> Jeanne

>

[Guest guest]

When you tried the Cutler protocol what was the chelator, dose,

timing, and weight of your daughter. Did you use support supplements?

Thanks

J

> >

> > Is anyone here chelating with the 8-hour schedule? I know, I've read

> > all the reasons for doing it every 3-4 hours, but with the level of

> > cooperation I get from my daughter right now on supplement taking I

> > just don't think it's feasible. I feel that for us it's either 8-

> hours

> > or nothing, and I do want to do something now.

> > If I do this is there something to look for that would show that the

> 8-

> > hr rounds are causing problems?

> > Thanks, please don't jump all over me for this question.

> > Jeanne

> >

>

[Guest guest]

There is simply a difference of expert

opinion on this.

Andy's opinion is based upon the 1/2 life of the

drug. Standard pharmacological practice is to dose

at the 1/2 life of the drug in question. Check

it out. Determine the 1/2 life of DMSA, ALA,

and DMPS for yourself. Determine whether it

is truly good pharmacology to dose at the

half life. Don't merely seek opinions, find the

facts.

Many parents are simply unable psychologically

(it's hard to get up at night to do this)

to dose every 4 hours according to accepted

pharmacolopgical practice.

--- Mum231ASD@... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 06/11/2007 02:28:02 GMT Standard

> Time,

> stacie@... writes:

>

> I'm very new to all of this. Why does McCandless'

> book Children

> w/Starving Brains say that 4 or 8 hour protocols

> are okay? She

> doesn't mention anything about redistribution to

> vital organs w/the 8

> hour protocols. Any suggestions on further reading

> for this issue?

>

>

>

> >>Lots of info here

>

> _http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/_

> (http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/)

>

> See links on that site for Andy Cutlers books

>

> Mandi in UK

>

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I tried Cutler as well. We did a couple of rounds of DMSA alone,

then added in ALA on round 3. We followed the protocol for approx 20

rounds. We got nothing. Now I'm not talking urine or fecal tests, I

watch for behaviors and other improvements. We got nothing, granted I

can't say it did any harm either.

I have recently started do Oral CaEDTA. According to Jack's hair

test, aluminum is his biggest issue, he also falls short of meeting any

of the counting rules for mercury (though he is *_just_* shy on ALL of

them). I saw more improvement in 3 days of CaEDTA, than in 20 rounds of

ALA. I'm not saying by any means that Andy's method is wrong, It makes

complete sense to me. It probably a great place to start for many

people. BUT our kids are all different. For now I'm going with the

CaEDTA.

Jenna

[Guest guest]

I believe there are two main issues here:

(1) do the chelators drop their metals, making it possible for the

metals to reharm the body and brain?

(2) is it hard on the body to move and excrete large amounts of

metals at the same time?

The answer is yes to both. If you chelate in a way that doesn't

account for these two things, then you could be making things worse.

Obviously, not everyone gets worse chelating in a manner that doesn't

account for these two facts. However, it is something of a crap

shoot. If other people with a great deal of chelation experience

say, yes, I did this other kind of chelation and everything went

really well, then OF COURSE it is possible that the same great

experience could befall your own child.

However, if someone else says, yes, I did this other kind of

chelation and it was terrible what happened, then OF COURSE it is

possible that the same horrible (and perhaps irreversible) experience

could befall your own child.

It seems clear to me that if anyone reads at the chelation boards for

more than a few months, you get the idea that chelation protocols

other than Andy's can give both great and, with saddening regularity,

terrible results. If you read here, it becomes pretty clear that

although Andy's protocol often gives great results, it isn't a

miracle for every kid (mine being one of them, although he is highly

metal toxic). However, it also becomes clear that it is extremely

rare for someone to have a bad experience on the protocol.

If parents try the safest treatment protocol first, give it a very

fair shot, and then choose to move on to something that is more risky

because of a lack of results, that sounds perfectly reasonable to

me. But if a parent chooses to use a protocol that clearly offers

more risks before trying anything else, that just seems stupid to

me.

We all strap our kids into car seats and seat belts, even though the

vast majority of us will never be in an accident. Why? Because

taking unnecessary risks is foolish. But we do drive our kids

around, which is, of course, a risk in itself, albeit in our

judgement, a necessary one. The difference is not that we're willing

to take risks, but why.

Anita

>

> >

> > In a message dated 06/11/2007 02:28:02 GMT Standard

> > Time,

> > stacie@... writes:

> >

> > I'm very new to all of this. Why does McCandless'

> > book Children

> > w/Starving Brains say that 4 or 8 hour protocols

> > are okay? She

> > doesn't mention anything about redistribution to

> > vital organs w/the 8

> > hour protocols. Any suggestions on further reading

> > for this issue?

> >

> >

> >

> > >>Lots of info here

> >

> > _http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/_

> > (http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/)

> >

> > See links on that site for Andy Cutlers books

> >

> > Mandi in UK

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> >

> >

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

even if you didnt think its true about the half life of dmsa, etc,

would you really want to take the chance? i for one was glad to know

about andy's protocol, it makes sense, its nice and slow and poses

no risk.

> > >

> > > Is anyone here chelating with the 8-hour schedule? I know,

I've read

> > > all the reasons for doing it every 3-4 hours, but with the

level of

> > > cooperation I get from my daughter right now on supplement

taking I

> > > just don't think it's feasible. I feel that for us it's either

8-

> > hours

> > > or nothing, and I do want to do something now.

> > > If I do this is there something to look for that would show

that the

> > 8-

> > > hr rounds are causing problems?

> > > Thanks, please don't jump all over me for this question.

> > > Jeanne

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

as parents who use biomed and/or chelation, we all know its

a " marathon " , and for me getting up 3 times a night via my alarm

clock going off to dose my child is just part of what I hope will be

a bad memory when my son eventually has no more metals in his body.

I wouldnt do anything to further harm him and to be honest if i

could not get up to dose in the 4 hour cycles i wouldnt bother

chelating. I would be too afraid to take a chance on the 8 hr

schedule now knowing what i know.

> >

> > >

> > > In a message dated 06/11/2007 02:28:02 GMT Standard

> > > Time,

> > > stacie@ writes:

> > >

> > > I'm very new to all of this. Why does McCandless'

> > > book Children

> > > w/Starving Brains say that 4 or 8 hour protocols

> > > are okay? She

> > > doesn't mention anything about redistribution to

> > > vital organs w/the 8

> > > hour protocols. Any suggestions on further reading

> > > for this issue?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > >>Lots of info here

> > >

> > > _http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/_

> > > (http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/)

> > >

> > > See links on that site for Andy Cutlers books

> > >

> > > Mandi in UK

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > removed]

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

>

> Is anyone here chelating with the 8-hour schedule?

I gave my four kids ALA 3x per day. I am currently chelating myself

with ALA 3x per day.

> If I do this is there something to look for that would show that the 8-

> hr rounds are causing problems?

Start with very low dose and watch how she reacts. That is what I did

with my kids.

Dana

[Guest guest]

That sounds scary.......

But actually I am not scared. We had tried low dose protocol also,

but no pull in the tests also no improvements clinically. Also many

of my fellow parents here are using high dose 8 hours protocol since

months & seeing wonderful results (few almost recovered) & of course

under the guidance of DAN.

Pls any of the chelation protocol should be under the DAN or atleast

a doctor's guidance. I think with such a lot of metal load inside

you ought to take it out aggressively or you wait for years to see

the results.

Again every child is different, my child doesn't have any severe gut

issues. I know this won't be taken very positively in this group,

lets not dump the whole DAN idea & protocol ,as such I am sure many

of you know the positive results of these DANs.

Just my piece..........

> > >

> > > Is anyone here chelating with the 8-hour schedule? I know,

I've read

> > > all the reasons for doing it every 3-4 hours, but with the

level of

> > > cooperation I get from my daughter right now on supplement

taking I

> > > just don't think it's feasible. I feel that for us it's either

8-

> > hours

> > > or nothing, and I do want to do something now.

> > > If I do this is there something to look for that would show

that the

> > 8-

> > > hr rounds are causing problems?

> > > Thanks, please don't jump all over me for this question.

> > > Jeanne

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

For some, the damage done by aggressively chelating (high doses) can

be devastating. For some. The problem is figuring out who will

tolerate the protocol you describe and who will 'tank'. I struggle

with DAN! at times because I feel many of the MDs toss new protocols

or interventions in to our regimen without much thought beyond

hearing it has worked for another MD (I'm on DAN! doctor #3). The

DAN! tolerance for negative side effects ( " it's just die-off " or " bad

behaviors are a sign something is working " ) falls way outside of my

comfort zone. That is not just DAN!, but MDs in general.

I'm just not willing to take the chance at this point, but I

understand how you got there. I can imagine how excited you are to

finally see progress.

Pam

> > > >

> > > > Is anyone here chelating with the 8-hour schedule? I know,

> I've read

> > > > all the reasons for doing it every 3-4 hours, but with the

> level of

> > > > cooperation I get from my daughter right now on supplement

> taking I

> > > > just don't think it's feasible. I feel that for us it's

either

> 8-

> > > hours

> > > > or nothing, and I do want to do something now.

> > > > If I do this is there something to look for that would show

> that the

> > > 8-

> > > > hr rounds are causing problems?

> > > > Thanks, please don't jump all over me for this question.

> > > > Jeanne

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Can somebody tell me how to dose chelator on 8 hours schedule? We are currently

doing every 4 hours DMSA (about 6mcg), my son is 36 lb.,don't see very much

changes or pulls. Would it be the same dosing for 8 hours protocol?

Thanks

Natalia

Regards

Natalia Ibbott

[Guest guest]

8 hours with DMSA is a BAD idea. Stay with the four hours and add a

bit of ALA, or up the DMSA a bit, if side effects are not bad at 6 mgs.

Anne

>

> Can somebody tell me how to dose chelator on 8 hours schedule? We

are currently doing every 4 hours DMSA (about 6mcg), my son is 36

lb.,don't see very much changes or pulls. Would it be the same dosing

for 8 hours protocol?

> Thanks

> Natalia

>

>

> Regards

>

> Natalia Ibbott

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

ALA is the chelator that gets mercury out of the brain. DMSA

doesn't do that. If you want to see positive changes, add ALA.

--

>

> Can somebody tell me how to dose chelator on 8 hours schedule? We

are currently doing every 4 hours DMSA (about 6mcg), my son is 36

lb.,don't see very much changes or pulls. Would it be the same dosing

for 8 hours protocol?

> Thanks

> Natalia

>

>

> Regards

>

> Natalia Ibbott

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Can somebody tell me how to dose chelator on 8 hours schedule?

If you want to dose at 8 h intervals, use oral DMPS.

> We are currently doing every 4 hours DMSA (about 6mcg), my son is

>36 lb.,don't see very much changes or pulls.

I expect that you are using 6 mg (not mcg)? That is 1/10 mg per lb.

You could increase the dose slightly to 1/8 mg per pound and then

eventually to 1/4 mg per pound.

What you want is to find the dose where there are some symptoms (like

fatigue) but the symptoms are manageable. Usually symptoms will be

seen at the end of the round, after the chelator has been stopped. If

the symptoms are extreme then you know that the chelator dose is too high.

After you have chelated for a period of time with DMSA alone and are

comfortable that the dose is right, then you would want to introduce

ALA at a low dose, change the interval to 3 h in the day and 4 h at

night. ALA is the chelator that will start to take the metals out of

the brain and internal organs.

There are a couple of things that often get misinterpreted in the

mercury world.

Using urine analysis to follow progress is a complete waste of time,

money and is not at all helpful.

It is not necessary for the person to be uncomfortable while

chelating. It is best to find the dose where the person is having

some side effects, so that you know that the treatment is working, but

the side effects are manageable.

It is going to take some time for chelation progress, so it is best to

be patient and continue to chelate slowly over a long term rather than

go too fast.

Dosing DMSA at 4 h intervals and ALA at 3 h intervals has to do with

the nature of the DMSA and ALA, not the nature of the individual. If

someone chelates at 8 h intervals and does not immediately report

problems that does not mean that they will not have problems in the

long term. Andy Cutler didn't make up the half lives of these

chemicals, he used the extensive research literature to determine what

they are. In pharmacology dosing the drug at the half life is a very

common practice for a number of very good reasons. In the case of

chelation it is even more important that it is in other cases because

of the toxicity of the mercury and other metals that you want to take

out of the body. Because mercury and other heavy metals are so toxic

you don't want to take any chance that they are going to go back

deeper into the brain or organs. Andy gives us the best advise from

the point of view of understanding the theory of chelation.

Everything he says can be confirmed by going through archives and

reading the experience of real mercury poisoned people. There is a

survey in this group comparing the results of 4 h and 8 h dosing of

DMSA. There are lots of posts from parents who have switched back and

forth from one to the other (which I have tried to find and collect

but it is a mammoth job). And there are the experiences of adults

documented in adult groups.

> Would it be the same dosing for 8 hours protocol?

If you dose DMPS at 8 h you would gradually remove mercury from the

body. If you dose DMSA at 8 h intervals you would remove some mercury

from the body and drive some deep into various compartments. There is

no way to predict where it will go.

J

> Thanks

> Natalia

>

>

> Regards

>

> Natalia Ibbott

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks to everybody who answered this thread. My DAN doc sent me 100 mg

capsules of DMSA. What dosage would I use for my 47 lb 7 yo dd if I

followed the Cutler protocol? It sounds like people are using much

smaller amounts. Could I divide these capsules, or is it too important

to have exact amounts. Where do you get your small quantities of DMSA

and in what form?

Thanks!

Jeanne

[Guest guest]

We would use 25 mgs every 3 hours during the day

and every 4 hours at night.

Open the capsule and cut the powder into 4 parts

with a single edge razor that you can buy in

an office supply store.

--- byrnejeanne <byrnejeanne@...> wrote:

> Thanks to everybody who answered this thread. My DAN

> doc sent me 100 mg

> capsules of DMSA. What dosage would I use for my 47

> lb 7 yo dd if I

> followed the Cutler protocol? It sounds like people

> are using much

> smaller amounts. Could I divide these capsules, or

> is it too important

> to have exact amounts. Where do you get your small

> quantities of DMSA

> and in what form?

> Thanks!

> Jeanne

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Natalia,

Before you decide to go for the 8 hour schedule, consider raising the

dose of DMSA on your current 4 hour schedule; 6 mg is a very low

dose. Try increasing it to 8 mgs the next round and 10 mgs the

following round... up to a potential 18-20 mgs per dose. Maybe you

will see changes on a higher dose?

I'm sure others are telling you about the reason why DMSA every 8

hours isn't the best plan, so I'll stick with my above recommendation.

IF you do decide to dose every 8 hours, generally those who do so

(with DAN! doctor's advice) also use a higher dose of chelator. Not

always, but generally; as much as 10-20 times what you are currently

giving. It varies widely.

Take care,

Pam

>

> Can somebody tell me how to dose chelator on 8 hours schedule? We

are currently doing every 4 hours DMSA (about 6mcg), my son is 36

lb.,don't see very much changes or pulls. Would it be the same

dosing for 8 hours protocol?

> Thanks

> Natalia

>

>

> Regards

>

> Natalia Ibbott

>

>

>