digestive enzymes question

[Guest guest]

Bill

I treated my leaky gut and as part of that I used digestive enzymes

with my meals to help ensure my food was broken down better, over

time as my GI tract improved there was every sign I was gaining more

benefit from proteins and my diet in general.

I have also used enzymes between meals. Wobenzyme did not suit me but

since I was aiming at breaking down fibrin bromelain was a good

choice. Nothing happened that made me aware of the problem you

describe here.

Cheers, Tansy

>

> if you take digestive enzymes as a supplement, and you have have

the

> so called " leaky gut " problem will these digestive enzymes

> inappropritely enter your bloodstream.

>

> i want to take digestive enzymes, but i'm afraid they will enter my

> system and start breaking down proteins that i actually need.

>

> thanks

> bill

[Guest guest]

Hi, Bill.

I don't think this is a problem. Some people intentionally take

proteolytic enzymes at off-meal times in order to enhance their

absorption into the blood. Bromelain is one example. As much as

40% of bromelain can be absorbed into the blood, according to one

research paper. I use it to keep my blood " thin, " because I had a

transient partial amnesia attack a couple of years ago (lasted about

3 hours), which may have been due to a temporary blood clot, like a

transischemic attack (TIA). In Germany, I'm told that people take

these enzymes as commonly as Americans take aspirin or similar

NSAIDs in order to reduce inflammation. Wobenzym is commonly used

for this purpose in Germany.

Rich

>

> if you take digestive enzymes as a supplement, and you have have

the

> so called " leaky gut " problem will these digestive enzymes

> inappropritely enter your bloodstream.

>

> i want to take digestive enzymes, but i'm afraid they will enter

my

> system and start breaking down proteins that i actually need.

>

> thanks

> bill

[Guest guest]

thanks for the responses.

as you probably know, one of the theories going around about CFS is

that we have increased proteolyitc activity going on which is

breaking down proteins that we actually need - like the findings of a

low molecualr weight Rnase L protien and decreased levels of some

STAT proteins.

the theory is that proteases like elastase are responsible, so i am

worried that adding these enzymes to my system might contribute to

that problem.

however i also feel that my digestive system is not functioning

properly - especially with things like casein and gluten. that is why

i am looking to add digestive enzymes.

here are a couple of products i am looking at:

http://www.kirkmanlabs.com/products/enzymes/enzymaid/H_EnZymAid_90_Spe

c043.html

http://www.metagenics.com/products/catalog/detail.asp?pid=143

does anybody know whether it is better to go with plant derived

enzymes or porcine (which i guess is from raw pancreas) is that even

healthy?

but i guess my main question is still whether taking protease could

contribute to the problem if it is infact caused by abnormally high

proteolytic activity.

what would stop a protease supplement form breaking down essential

proteins if it is absorbed into the blood stream?

thanks

bill

> >

> > if you take digestive enzymes as a supplement, and you have have

> the

> > so called " leaky gut " problem will these digestive enzymes

> > inappropritely enter your bloodstream.

> >

> > i want to take digestive enzymes, but i'm afraid they will enter

> my

> > system and start breaking down proteins that i actually need.

> >

> > thanks

> > bill

[Guest guest]

Bill

I will let others who can work with detail better than I can give you

more background in this. I have used a variety of digestive enzymes,

most of them are board spectrum and cover the enzymes needed for all

foods. I have used both veg based and one porcine based digestive

enzyme, I use the latter when I have eat a good-sized portion of

animal protein when I take one of each.

If you have a gluten as well as lactose/casein intolerance avoiding

these will help towards healing your leaky gut. Many of us have found

that all grains are a problem, which is why I posted the specific

carbohydrate diet a few days ago. My diet has ended up being similar

to that, it has helped with more than just my GI tract problems.

Enzymes like wobenzyme help to break down plaque as well. I had a PE

many years ago, I cannot tolerate aspirin but my GP is has endorsed

the continual use of bromelain instead. Turmeric, which has been

discussed recently, helps break down fibrin, plaque, and can be used

along side other supps etc to support the liver and raise glutathione

levels.

I hope your protocol, whatever you decide upon, is at least as

successful as mine has been for me.

Cheers, Tansy

> > >

> > > if you take digestive enzymes as a supplement, and you have

have

> > the

> > > so called " leaky gut " problem will these digestive enzymes

> > > inappropritely enter your bloodstream.

> > >

> > > i want to take digestive enzymes, but i'm afraid they will

enter

> > my

> > > system and start breaking down proteins that i actually need.

> > >

> > > thanks

> > > bill

[Guest guest]

Bill:

I have heard that plant based enzymes have a wider range of pH,

whereas pancreatic enzymes could be destroyed by stomach acids before

entering the small intestine for absorption.

Tansy:

What else did you use to heal your leaky gut? Did you try L-Glutamine?

How do you know if you have gluten/lactose/casein intolerance?

Thanks,

o

> > > >

> > > > if you take digestive enzymes as a supplement, and you have

> have

> > > the

> > > > so called " leaky gut " problem will these digestive enzymes

> > > > inappropritely enter your bloodstream.

> > > >

> > > > i want to take digestive enzymes, but i'm afraid they will

> enter

> > > my

> > > > system and start breaking down proteins that i actually need.

> > > >

> > > > thanks

> > > > bill

[Guest guest]

Bill,

I've wondered about that too, but I think the point is that these

proteolytic enzymes taken orally aren't able to get inside your

cells. Enzymes such as RNase-L are intracellular, so they won't be

affected.

Wobenzym is a combination of plant-based and porcine-based

proteolytic enzymes--six altogether. It seems to be fine for many

people. My mother-in-law has been taking it regularly for several

years. I suggested it to her as an experiment, to try to break down

the fibrosis in her lungs. She has interstitial pulmonary fibrosis

or hypersensitivity pneumonitis, which are difficult to distinguish

diagnostically. I can't say it has removed her fibrosis, but it

doesn't seem to have done her any harm, either. She has lived

several years, and IPF is usually fatal in a relatively short time.

I think the big factor for her has been ImmunoPro Rx, though, which

I also suggested to her several years ago, and which she has been

taking. It is known that IPF involves oxidative stress in the

lungs, which is what leads to the fibrosis.

Rich

Rich

>

> thanks for the responses.

>

> as you probably know, one of the theories going around about CFS

is

> that we have increased proteolyitc activity going on which is

> breaking down proteins that we actually need - like the findings

of a

> low molecualr weight Rnase L protien and decreased levels of some

> STAT proteins.

>

> the theory is that proteases like elastase are responsible, so i

am

> worried that adding these enzymes to my system might contribute to

> that problem.

>

> however i also feel that my digestive system is not functioning

> properly - especially with things like casein and gluten. that is

why

> i am looking to add digestive enzymes.

>

> here are a couple of products i am looking at:

>

>

http://www.kirkmanlabs.com/products/enzymes/enzymaid/H_EnZymAid_90_Sp

e

> c043.html

>

> http://www.metagenics.com/products/catalog/detail.asp?pid=143

>

> does anybody know whether it is better to go with plant derived

> enzymes or porcine (which i guess is from raw pancreas) is that

even

> healthy?

>

> but i guess my main question is still whether taking protease

could

> contribute to the problem if it is infact caused by abnormally

high

> proteolytic activity.

>

> what would stop a protease supplement form breaking down essential

> proteins if it is absorbed into the blood stream?

>

> thanks

> bill

[Guest guest]

o

There is a difference between using enzymes to help break down food

and taking them to break down fibrin, plaque etc.

I use the porcine based and veg based DEs purely to help breakdown

the food I eat so they are taken with meals. The enzymes taken

between meals have no food to break down and so are absorbed into the

bloodstream. I use bromelain for this but there are others like

nattokinase, wobenzyme and serrapeptase. Some people I know have used

basic DEs this way but I needed to concentrate on breaking down

fibrin.

Cheers, Tansy

>

> Bill:

>

> I have heard that plant based enzymes have a wider range of pH,

> whereas pancreatic enzymes could be destroyed by stomach acids

before

> entering the small intestine for absorption.

>

> o

>

[Guest guest]

Bill-

FWIW I took digestive enzymes for a long time to try to relieve

constipation. I am now taking flax seed oil and that is helping

a lot. Maybe flax isn't the oil that you need, but some kind of

essential oil may help your digestion and somehow help with the

absorption of critical proteins and other nutrients.

Mike C. ( The DE didn't help me at all-waste of time and $)

In , " winsomme " <winsomme@y...>

wrote:

>

> thanks for the responses.

>

> as you probably know, one of the theories going around about CFS

is

> that we have increased proteolyitc activity going on which is

> breaking down proteins that we actually need - like the findings

of a

> low molecualr weight Rnase L protien and decreased levels of some

> STAT proteins.

>

> the theory is that proteases like elastase are responsible, so i

am

> worried that adding these enzymes to my system might contribute to

> that problem.

>

> however i also feel that my digestive system is not functioning

> properly - especially with things like casein and gluten. that is

why

> i am looking to add digestive enzymes.

>

> here are a couple of products i am looking at:

<<<snip>>>

[Guest guest]

Tansy:

What I meant is that digestive plant enzymes (taken with meals to

breakdown food) have a wider range of pH than digestive pancreatic

enzymes (like wobenzyme's version of digestive enzymes).

Proteolytic enzymes (also called systemic enzymes) which contain

mostly different kinds of proteases (like papain, bromelain, etc.)

don't need to have a wide pH range, since they are enterically

coated,and thus, pass into the small intestine without being affected

by stomach acids.

Wobenzyme systemic version (or proteolytic) enzymes are very good, but

the other wobenzymes (that contain pancreatic protease,lipase and

amylase) are less effective than plant digestive enzymes.

Systemic enzymes are used more than just fibrin modulators. They have

anti-inflamatory properties just like NSAID's, eat away scar tissue,

modulate immune functions, etc.

I wonder how effective would systemic enzymes be to fight viruses like

HHV6, EBV, CMV, etc. Since all viruses are protein coated, these types

of enzymes can eat away that coating, leaving them vulnerable, so our

immune systems can fight them more easly.

Has anyone used systemic enzymes to fight CFS viruses?

Changing of subject Tansy: Did you ever were tested for gliadin,

transglutaminase, reticuline, etc. blood antibodies to detect gluten

intolerance?

Thanks,

o

> >

> > Bill:

> >

> > I have heard that plant based enzymes have a wider range of pH,

> > whereas pancreatic enzymes could be destroyed by stomach acids

> before

> > entering the small intestine for absorption.

> >

> > o

> >

[Guest guest]

thanks for all the info on DEs. i was glad to hear that they cannot

enter into cells and disrutp things there.

> >

> > thanks for the responses.

> >

> > as you probably know, one of the theories going around about CFS

> is

> > that we have increased proteolyitc activity going on which is

> > breaking down proteins that we actually need - like the findings

> of a

> > low molecualr weight Rnase L protien and decreased levels of some

> > STAT proteins.

> >

> > the theory is that proteases like elastase are responsible, so i

> am

> > worried that adding these enzymes to my system might contribute

to

> > that problem.

> >

> > however i also feel that my digestive system is not functioning

> > properly - especially with things like casein and gluten. that is

> why

> > i am looking to add digestive enzymes.

> >

> > here are a couple of products i am looking at:

> >

> >

>

http://www.kirkmanlabs.com/products/enzymes/enzymaid/H_EnZymAid_90_Sp

> e

> > c043.html

> >

> > http://www.metagenics.com/products/catalog/detail.asp?pid=143

> >

> > does anybody know whether it is better to go with plant derived

> > enzymes or porcine (which i guess is from raw pancreas) is that

> even

> > healthy?

> >

> > but i guess my main question is still whether taking protease

> could

> > contribute to the problem if it is infact caused by abnormally

> high

> > proteolytic activity.

> >

> > what would stop a protease supplement form breaking down

essential

> > proteins if it is absorbed into the blood stream?

> >

> > thanks

> > bill

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 19/12/2007 18:32:48 GMT Standard Time,

kastout24@... writes:

does loose stool or dirrhea mean you don't need digestive enzymes?

>>No, its very common when you start

every time i start to take them i get this, but after a few days its

gone away, but it still makes me wonder if that means i don't need

them, or its just the body getting use to them?

>>Not getting used to enzymes but getting used to well digested food

Mandi in UK

PS You can ring Houston Enzymes and talk directly to Devin Houston PhD

Enzymeologist

www.houstonni.com

[Guest guest]

does loose stool or dirrhea mean you don't need digestive enzymes?

every time i start to take them i get this, but after a few days its

gone away, but it still makes me wonder if that means i don't need

them, or its just the body getting use to them?

anybody have this happen and had a doctor explain what the deal is?

thanks

scott

[Guest guest]

>

> does loose stool or dirrhea mean you don't need digestive enzymes?

> every time i start to take them i get this, but after a few days its

> gone away, but it still makes me wonder if that means i don't need

> them, or its just the body getting use to them?

It might be that you are not tolerating the enzyme you are trying.

It might also be the typical three-week adjustment period.

Dana