Guest guest Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 Why don't you guys get a life and use this forum as it was intended! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 I don't agree w/all of the assertions of Weston Price or westonaprice.org. And I particularly do NOT recommend dairy (other than flaxseed oil w/organic cottage cheese or yogurt) or meat for most cancer patients. However, I'm astounded at how weak and uninformed many of the " arguments " against his findings (on this listserv lately) have been. (They're some of the weakest and uninformed such arguments I've seen). I encourage those who wish to criticize Price to 1st READ (w/an open mind) the actual evidence and arguments presented on westonaprice.org before dismissing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 So in effect, what you are saying is that you agree that dairy and meat products are not foods that cancer patients should be ingesting, but that you do not agree with the statements made to show the ridiculous nature of the human consumption of such products. You don't find it strange that human beings are the only species on the planet that go outside of their own species to drink breast milk? You don't find it odd that human beings are the only species on the planet that consume milk past the human developmental age of 4. Milk contains no fiber and is filled with saturated fat and cholesterol. The USDA allows drinking milk to contain from 1 to 1.5 million white blood cells (pus) per milliliter. Further, the fact that Price was a dentist by trade and neglected to mention that the structure of the human mouth, including the layout, tooth design, and chewing mechanism is designed for a vegetarian diet is in itself disappointing. I am not attempting to throw out the baby with the bath water. Price has some insightful theories on the health of populations far removed from the traditional 2002 standard American diet (SAD). The fact of the matter is that with the weak regulations and policing of our food supply those foods can not be ingested by those sick or attempting to return to health and from an evolutionary perspective were not meant for human consumption. Re: [ ] westonaprice.org I don't agree w/all of the assertions of Weston Price or westonaprice.org. And I particularly do NOT recommend dairy (other than flaxseed oil w/organic cottage cheese or yogurt) or meat for most cancer patients. However, I'm astounded at how weak and uninformed many of the " arguments " against his findings (on this listserv lately) have been. (They're some of the weakest and uninformed such arguments I've seen). I encourage those who wish to criticize Price to 1st READ (w/an open mind) the actual evidence and arguments presented on westonaprice.org before dismissing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 Glad I am from Arizona and own manure kicker boots, Its really getting deep. Re: [ ] westonaprice.org > > > I don't agree w/all of the assertions of Weston > Price or westonaprice.org. And I particularly do > NOT recommend dairy (other than flaxseed oil > w/organic cottage cheese or yogurt) or meat for > most cancer patients. > However, I'm astounded at how weak and uninformed > many of the " arguments " against his findings (on > this listserv lately) have been. (They're some of > the weakest and uninformed such arguments I've > seen). I encourage those who wish to criticize > Price to 1st READ (w/an open mind) the actual > evidence and arguments presented on > westonaprice.org before dismissing it. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 Great reply ronwilson! I had planned a long rebuttal but after reading this, why bother? Instead, not having any manure kicker boots, I'll just haf'ta roll up my pants (It's already too late to save my shoes) and go have a big bowl of carne adovada from free-ranging swine, followed by a big swig of non-pasteurized, non-homogenized milk from grass-fed cows. can go have a bowl of tofu and some soy milk. Ummmmmmm! On Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 10:27 PM, ronwilson wrote: > Glad I am from Arizona and own manure kicker boots, Its really getting > deep. > > > Re: [ ] westonaprice.org >> >> >> I don't agree w/all of the assertions of Weston >> Price or westonaprice.org. And I particularly do >> NOT recommend dairy (other than flaxseed oil >> w/organic cottage cheese or yogurt) or meat for >> most cancer patients. >> However, I'm astounded at how weak and uninformed >> many of the " arguments " against his findings (on >> this listserv lately) have been. (They're some of >> the weakest and uninformed such arguments I've >> seen). I encourage those who wish to criticize >> Price to 1st READ (w/an open mind) the actual >> evidence and arguments presented on >> westonaprice.org before dismissing it. >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 the jury is still out on this one. A lot of good solid scientific evidence is accumulating against soy and it is extremely difficult to find anything scientific against healthy organic dairy. The pro-soy or anti-dairy people as it were, always move to these simple platitudes that the lay person can get their simple beliefs around, its marketing 101. But they are specious arguments. " No other animals consume milk past 4 years and none of another species " . Big deal, leaf cutter ants are the only other known animal outside of man that farms, cultivates, harvests and processes their food. Does it mean they are doing it wrong, its unhealthy for them? Other animals don't drink milk because they are not harvesters as we are. We figured out that we could grow milk like any other crop. The high fat, its what made it possible for humans to live in colder climates when without milk in our diet we appear to be stuck as equatorial creatures. Perhaps it may also be why we developed the big brains we have and why those that drank soy have problems with concentration and resort to simple superstition, that was just a low blow quip, sorry. Early evidence does seem to indicate though that soy has a neurotoxic amount of manganese in it, which may cause permanent brain disorders ergo ADD if ingested in infancy. Using the simple brand of " logic " you started with, what animals eat soybeans, how about processed soy at any age? At least we can observe other animals quite similar to us eating dairy albeit younger animals. Hell ancient Chinese wisdom warned against eating soybeans and knew not to use them for anything except nitrogen fixation of crops until relatively recently they didn't eat soy at all. BTW we have neither herb nor carnivore teeth. They appear to be a mix of both but have weak features of either, hence they are weakly omnivorous. That's probably why the dentist didn't mention it. Intestines similarly--- Be careful how invested you are in these kind of dietary ideas, they really are like bad religion until the light of science can weed through some of the rampant superstitions. One day we may have a safe soy product to eat and no other animal will be eating it either, so what? Will the dairy people fire their salvo back about how unnatural consumption of soy is? Perhaps high quality, read organic, no BGH etc. low fat cows milk is already a great food. These kinds of battles quickly start to resemble the other religious battles that are fought; weaker evidence equals greater zealotry. In this group you are dealing with people making life and death decisions, perhaps you are too. The ego so involved though creates an air of hostility that seems a little rude when the battles are not scientific but belief based. Many in this group are having really hard decisions to make offer an opinion but be cautious in rallying around your dietary messiah and single reference quotes of scripture. Try to apply a broader view and you will feel less anxiety. Cancer patients really need to eat and when I was in the clinic I observed lots of other patients going through the same anxiety I was about eating. When it came to mealtime I would often eat far to little because everyone had an opinion on what shouldn't be eaten and a less dogmatic opinion on what should. When I was going through radiation after chemo for DLBCL (lymphoma) the dietician recommended 120-135 grams/day of protein. On my vegan diet this wasn't going to happen very readily. I know there are also protein debates but I chose to " believe " the evidence she cited as to why the high amount of protein. Anecdotal for sure but every survivor I met followed a high protein diet during radiation. Sure I kept up my organic fruits, vegetables and juices (though I had to decrease the ingestion of those high in antioxidants or the radiation might not do its job of poisoning the cancer sufficiently) but they suggested I supplement with nutrition boosters, which are all soy based. Soy marketing has been very effective. They made me miserable, I was bloated, had diarrhea constantly and of course lost weight for the week I tried them. I changed to dairy it was easily digestible, the symptoms disappeared. It reminded me of years earlier when I thought I was lactose intolerant and changed my morning latte or tea with milk to soy based drinks. For a couple of weeks I seemed to be getting better but was still similarly symptomatic I started looking for other reasons in my diet but being sure that the lactose intolerance had been " fixed " I didn't reexamine my milk replacement again. Well I went off of coffee and tea and the symptoms almost disappeared. I thought surely I had found the culprit; it had been the coffee and tea all along, not what I was putting in them. Then a friend suggested that I try some soy dessert, I enjoyed it and started having the bowel problems like clockwork. It hit me, I added coffee and tea with milk back into my diet and eliminated any source of soy by scrupulously examining food labels and didn't have a problem again until the supplementation soy drinks during radiation 4 years later. For what its worth I do eat meat now, free range organic or non farm raised fish, very little dairy and try to avoid all soy. I haven't had any bowel problems in 9 months. The best to both of you, I am simply saying the soy vs. dairy debate is inconclusive. It is not black and white and please if you are going through chemo or radiation for God's sake please consider getting some real known protein in your diet and enjoy it. The next foods to chase down are high heated carbs of all kinds. Re: [ ] westonaprice.org So in effect, what you are saying is that you agree that dairy and meat products are not foods that cancer patients should be ingesting, but that you do not agree with the statements made to show the ridiculous nature of the human consumption of such products. You don't find it strange that human beings are the only species on the planet that go outside of their own species to drink breast milk? You don't find it odd that human beings are the only species on the planet that consume milk past the human developmental age of 4. Milk contains no fiber and is filled with saturated fat and cholesterol. The USDA allows drinking milk to contain from 1 to 1.5 million white blood cells (pus) per milliliter. Further, the fact that Price was a dentist by trade and neglected to mention that the structure of the human mouth, including the layout, tooth design, and chewing mechanism is designed for a vegetarian diet is in itself disappointing. I am not attempting to throw out the baby with the bath water. Price has some insightful theories on the health of populations far removed from the traditional 2002 standard American diet (SAD). The fact of the matter is that with the weak regulations and policing of our food supply those foods can not be ingested by those sick or attempting to return to health and from an evolutionary perspective were not meant for human consumption. Re: [ ] westonaprice.org I don't agree w/all of the assertions of Weston Price or westonaprice.org. And I particularly do NOT recommend dairy (other than flaxseed oil w/organic cottage cheese or yogurt) or meat for most cancer patients. However, I'm astounded at how weak and uninformed many of the " arguments " against his findings (on this listserv lately) have been. (They're some of the weakest and uninformed such arguments I've seen). I encourage those who wish to criticize Price to 1st READ (w/an open mind) the actual evidence and arguments presented on westonaprice.org before dismissing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 Neil, I would like to apologize to you, what you decide to eat, drink, breath, wear, clean with, and use as hygiene products are your decisions and it is not my place to comment on. I would like to clarify that I do not advocate cancer patients eating any soy products. I recommend against any processed soy products for all cancer patients. Soybeans or soybean sprouts, properly cleaned and prepared, are a great source of protein and fiber without any cholesterol and low saturated fat. All dairy, fish, beef, and chicken products carry with them the risk of parasitic contamination and infection. This can be devastating to cancer patients that are continually decontaminating themselves through daily food intake. Royal Rife warned against eating pork because he observed the cancer virus within that animal. It would be a shame to beat cancer and die from heart disease because of a diet that contained too much beef and milk. Neil, this group is not for our petty egotistical arguments and is counterproductive to the people who are trying to get healthy. Good luck with your health. Live Well Re: [ ] westonaprice.org >> >> >> I don't agree w/all of the assertions of Weston >> Price or westonaprice.org. And I particularly do >> NOT recommend dairy (other than flaxseed oil >> w/organic cottage cheese or yogurt) or meat for >> most cancer patients. >> However, I'm astounded at how weak and uninformed >> many of the " arguments " against his findings (on >> this listserv lately) have been. (They're some of >> the weakest and uninformed such arguments I've >> seen). I encourage those who wish to criticize >> Price to 1st READ (w/an open mind) the actual >> evidence and arguments presented on >> westonaprice.org before dismissing it. >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 Marty, I respect the ideas and information that you replied with. Let's get something clear, my statement was not intended to advocate soy products. Processed soy in any form should not be used by cancer patients and must be carefully assessed by individual company for infants and children. My belief is in whole foods, and consumption in their natural fresh state. Soy beans or sprouts are beneficial and a great source of protein and fiber, one cup of soybeans contains 22 grams of protein. Soy is better for women then it is for men. The problem lies in the processing and packaging of soy products, as it does with every other processed food. Soy protein is the only " complete " vegetable protein. Soybeans contain more protein by weight than beef, fish, or chicken with no cholesterol and little saturated fat. As for the dairy debate, the nutritional value of dairy should not be the calcium. You can get enough calcium from organic raw vegetables. The fat content in milk is not healthy because it is saturated. The marketing of soy is no worse then the marketing of dairy and both are financially driven, not keeping the health of the general public at heart. Milk is defined as " a fluid secreted by the mammary glands of females for the nourishment of their young, or the contents of an unripe kernel of grain " . In Feb 2000 the cow milk producers filed a trade complaint against the soymilk producers to prohibit them from using the word milk in their advertisements with the FDA. Dairy; You mentioned " big deal " concerning the age of 4 for human milk digestion. Renin and lactase are the enzymes necessary to break down and digest milk. By age three they are all but gone in humans. Milk contains and casein. There is 300 times more casein in cow's milk than in human milk. Casein coagulates in the stomach and forms difficult to digest curds that are adapted to the four-stomach digestive apparatus of a cow. This substance can attach the intestinal lining and prevent absorption. Casein is the base of one of the strongest glues. All this and the increase risk of heart disease, allergies, and digestive maladies not excluding the obesity epidemic in the U.S. Milk and cheese were needed for a period in our culture when people were unable to obtain food during harsh winters, before the supermarket. As for flesh; when flesh is eaten the amino acid chains have to be broken down and reassembled into human protein. The heat of cooking coagulates or destroys many of the amino acids, making them unusable by the human body. I don't know many people who eat their meats raw. Let's not forget heart disease. As for the carnivore vs. vegetarian diet let's take a look at the science; Carnivore's have acidic saliva to break down proteins it lacks ptyalin (a chemical that digests starches), our saliva is alkaline and contains ptyalin for the digestion of starch. A carnivore's stomach is a simple round sack and it secretes 10 times the hydrochloric acid of a noncarnivore. Our stomach are oblong and convoluted with a duodenum. A carnivore's intestinal tract is designed for rapid expulsion of food. Ours is designed to keep food in them. The liver of a carnivore is capable of eliminating ten to fifteen times the amount of uric acid (a by product of meat consumption) then the liver of a noncarnivore. Humans do not have the enzyme uricase to break down uric acid. Our hands are designed to gather, like you pointed out, not for tearing apart an animal with claws. I would like to apologize to the group for taking this issue to the emotional level, it was not my intention. I will be logging off this group, good luck to all in your fight to be healthy. Re: [ ] westonaprice.org I don't agree w/all of the assertions of Weston Price or westonaprice.org. And I particularly do NOT recommend dairy (other than flaxseed oil w/organic cottage cheese or yogurt) or meat for most cancer patients. However, I'm astounded at how weak and uninformed many of the " arguments " against his findings (on this listserv lately) have been. (They're some of the weakest and uninformed such arguments I've seen). I encourage those who wish to criticize Price to 1st READ (w/an open mind) the actual evidence and arguments presented on westonaprice.org before dismissing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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