Re: DIM Discussion-Larry

[Guest guest]

Phil,

Thanks much for the information. It's starting to put some pieces of

the puzzle together for me.

Yes, we assuredly do know about the bone loss... I've lost 1 1/2 " in

height in last two years! Okay, so you've basically been able to keep

your T levels above 800 (with those exceptions) listed, and went you

went below 800 your joint and muscle pains would start. So we know

that - in your case - 800 is indeed the therapeutic level. And you

were always able to get to 800 level or above on everything but

AndroGel and Testim (I'm assuming 10 gram max, right?). So since those

two weren't getting you above 800, you experienced the muscle and

joint pains.

OK, that would indicate to us that it's (for you and your particular

case) strictly the level of T that was the causative factor. Except

that being on the IM shots at current levels has you at 650 T and your

joint / muscle pains are gone... dammit, which kind of destroys the

first theory. I checked and the formulaas of AndroGel and Testim are

quite dissimilar - except for the testosterone component, so I don't

think that it's anything in those two that are causing a reaction with

your body (but can't say that for sure of course).

Do you think that in addition to the necessary T levels (i.e., 800 or

better) that it might also have something to do with your E2 levels

causing those pains? When you tried to get levels up to 800 using

AndroGel and Testim I am going to assume that those gels also shot

your E2 levels up, eh? So maybe it's a combination of those two factors.

BTW, you say that you were able to get decent levels (i.e., 800 or

over) with the patch? That's very interesting. I've had a lot of

people reply back that aside from the irritation factor that many felt

that they got almost no extra T from the patch (though one individual

on another board had to be cut back from two patches daily to one as

his levels were " too high " .

Without going back and checking - cause I know that you've stated it

befoer - but what level are you doing currentrly with the IM shots?

It's over the standard 100mg once weekly, correct? And also doing HCG

like three times weekly? Do you get your HCG thru Medco also? Anyway,

as to the IM shots, have you considered going to twice weekly with them?

I saw that someone on the board a couple days ago indicated that they

were switching from 100mg once weekly to 50mg twice weekly as they

still had some slight sensitivity to the " roller coaster " effect.

Would be interesting to see how they worked out....

Again, thanks for the better info. Gives me something to gnaw over and

do some researching on. I have lived a pretty " hard " life (what's the

old saying, " been ridden hard and put away wet " ... and want to be

prepared to stay on top of any potential joints/muscle pains that

might be related to TRT that might pop up down the road.... knock on

wood, nothing in that regards so far, but just to be safe).

Larry

> Larry we do konw that low T causes bone loss right. In the 21 yrs.

that I have been on TRT I have allways had my Total T above 800 most

times at 1000 when I went below 800 because of an infection or bad

stress the death of a loved one. My joints and muscles were the first

thing to bother me. For me over 800 is a therapeutic range for me. I

have done pellets, shots but every 2 weeks, patch on the testis and

skin, compounded creams and gels, AndroGel and Testim. My levels have

been above 800 on all of the above but AndroGel and Testim. I tryed

doing 15 grams of Testim but the converson into E2 was so bad I could

not stay on it long enough to tell if it would bring my levels up

higher and relieve the pain in my joints and muscles. I did shots

with both androgel and testim and my pain was gone but it drove my E2

nuts. After reading back in my day planer I feel it is the levels not

getting high enough for the therapeutic levels. Yet doing the shots

every week my levels are at

> 650 so I am at a loss as to why I have joint and muscle pain doing

the new gels. Unless it is the kick one gets from the shot and it

acts like a steroid shot does on the joints and muscles.

> Phil

>