Re: Carruther's book questions

[Guest guest]

> I got a hold of Testosterone Revolution by Malcolm Carruthers. Very

> interesting read. Some questions I walked away from it with:

>

> 1) He refers to some promising new injections undergoing clinical

> trials that have the possibility of an extended action between 2 and 4

> months. Does anyone know anything about these?

>

> 2) Does anyone have any knowledge/experience regarding Andriol,

> restandol (undecanoate), or Proviron (mesterolone)? I would love to

> see some studies on these.

>

> 3) Any knowledge on sublinguals (not buccal)?

>

> 4) Are pellets covered by Kaiser (does anyone know)?

>

>

> Thanks!

>

> Drake

1) probably Nebido® (testosterone undecanoate) not yet available in the US

http://biz./bw/050729/295260.html?.v=1

2) Andriol not available in the US. See the Files section for addt'l

info. It requires multiple doses per day. Some have trouble getting

stable levels or so I have heard. Don't think Proviron is available

in the US. It is not testosterone unlike Nebido and Andriol.

Brad

[Guest guest]

Thanks Brad --

So are there no non-methyl testosterone available in the US (besides

those compounded at pharmacies?

Nebido sounds great, but I would bet it would have a heck of a peak,

wouldn't it? Is anybody using it?

I also meant to ask about a SHBG blocker he refers to in the book.

Anybody on a SHBG blocker or something like that?

Drake

> > I got a hold of Testosterone Revolution by Malcolm Carruthers.

Very

> > interesting read. Some questions I walked away from it with:

> >

> > 1) He refers to some promising new injections undergoing clinical

> > trials that have the possibility of an extended action between 2

and 4

> > months. Does anyone know anything about these?

> >

> > 2) Does anyone have any knowledge/experience regarding Andriol,

> > restandol (undecanoate), or Proviron (mesterolone)? I would love

to

> > see some studies on these.

> >

> > 3) Any knowledge on sublinguals (not buccal)?

> >

> > 4) Are pellets covered by Kaiser (does anyone know)?

> >

> >

> > Thanks!

> >

> > Drake

>

> 1) probably Nebido® (testosterone undecanoate) not yet available in

the US

>

> http://biz./bw/050729/295260.html?.v=1

>

> 2) Andriol not available in the US. See the Files section for

addt'l

> info. It requires multiple doses per day. Some have trouble

getting

> stable levels or so I have heard. Don't think Proviron is available

> in the US. It is not testosterone unlike Nebido and Andriol.

>

> Brad

[Guest guest]

Hi Drake

I am just about to have my first injection of Nebido.

It was recently released on the UK NHS market although available earlier

this year.

The information I have so far is that it remains level but I have asked

Schering for their clinical trial information.

Hope this helps?

Kind regards,

Re: Carruther's book questions

Thanks Brad --

So are there no non-methyl testosterone available in the US (besides

those compounded at pharmacies?

Nebido sounds great, but I would bet it would have a heck of a peak,

wouldn't it? Is anybody using it?

I also meant to ask about a SHBG blocker he refers to in the book.

Anybody on a SHBG blocker or something like that?

Drake

> > I got a hold of Testosterone Revolution by Malcolm Carruthers.

Very

> > interesting read. Some questions I walked away from it with:

> >

> > 1) He refers to some promising new injections undergoing clinical

> > trials that have the possibility of an extended action between 2

and 4

> > months. Does anyone know anything about these?

> >

> > 2) Does anyone have any knowledge/experience regarding Andriol,

> > restandol (undecanoate), or Proviron (mesterolone)? I would love

to

> > see some studies on these.

> >

> > 3) Any knowledge on sublinguals (not buccal)?

> >

> > 4) Are pellets covered by Kaiser (does anyone know)?

> >

> >

> > Thanks!

> >

> > Drake

>

> 1) probably Nebido® (testosterone undecanoate) not yet available in

the US

>

> http://biz./bw/050729/295260.html?.v=1

>

> 2) Andriol not available in the US. See the Files section for

addt'l

> info. It requires multiple doses per day. Some have trouble

getting

> stable levels or so I have heard. Don't think Proviron is available

> in the US. It is not testosterone unlike Nebido and Andriol.

>

> Brad

[Guest guest]

Guys,

The Testosterone Revolution is a few years old now but still a good

layman read, but Dr Carruthers latest book details information on

Nebido and shows gausian graphs detailing testosterone release of

many medications including Nebido.

What I will say straight up is- the people I know on Nebido are not

doing to well on it at all due to the rollercoaster effect and

possible increases in E2 typically being up and down with good and

bad weeks. Certainly E2 looks to be a significant issue on the face

of it and to the believe of one individual.

I was looking at a graph for Nebido treatment in 14 previously

untreated men from the new book.

There does appear to be quite a change in terms of testosterone

levels reached between the 1st and 13th injections.

According to the mean you are likely to reach about 22nmol/l on the

first injection, but about 32nmol/l by the 13th.

That said these highs are quite short lived.

Testosterone release according to the mean/average is;

32nmol/l Day 7, 28nmol/l Day 14, 25nmol/l day 21, 23nmol/ Day 28,

22nmol/l Day 35, 20nmol/l Day 42 upto day 56. 18nmol/l Day 63,

20nmol/l Day 20, 15nmol/l day 77 onwards. (this is my interpretation

from the graph as exact numbers are not given).

This on the face of it (perhaps there is something more complicated

going on) is not anywhere near as good in terms of the consistency

achieved as a reasonable dose of pellet implants.

With pellet implants the mean average at 1200mg was;

30nmol/l month 1, 26nmol month 2, 24nmol/l month 3, 22nmol/l month

4, 15nmol/l month 5, 10nmol/l month 6.

Perhaps Nebido fairs better in comparison to pellets when it comes

to free testosterone because of lower E2 conversion and lowering of

SHBG. (It is known to lower SHBG- as for the E2 maybe the E2 is

worse?).

A pity we don't have any info on the latter.

Those on Nebido may improve from injection 1 to injection 13 because

of increasing T levels, at least in the initial weeks following

treatment, but peaks and troughs look to be part of life on this

medication if the mean/average taken from 14 men is representative

of the treatment and this pattern continues beyond the 13 injection.

Also the one size fits all approach to this medication looks to be a

significant problem.

I hope that helps guys even if the news doesn't sound good.

For a better take on this yourself I would recommend buying Androgen

Deficiency In The Adult Male and reading it, more importantly I

recommend getting in touch with , FINNMAN and at the

UK forum.

The first two are both on Nebido and has been on it- they

can give you the realities of what it is like to be on Nebido as

opposed to the written word.

Chris

> > > I got a hold of Testosterone Revolution by Malcolm Carruthers.

> Very

> > > interesting read. Some questions I walked away from it with:

> > >

> > > 1) He refers to some promising new injections undergoing

clinical

> > > trials that have the possibility of an extended action between

2

> and 4

> > > months. Does anyone know anything about these?

> > >

> > > 2) Does anyone have any knowledge/experience regarding Andriol,

> > > restandol (undecanoate), or Proviron (mesterolone)? I would

love

> to

> > > see some studies on these.

> > >

> > > 3) Any knowledge on sublinguals (not buccal)?

> > >

> > > 4) Are pellets covered by Kaiser (does anyone know)?

> > >

> > >

> > > Thanks!

> > >

> > > Drake

> >

> > 1) probably Nebido® (testosterone undecanoate) not yet available

in

> the US

> >

> > http://biz./bw/050729/295260.html?.v=1

> >

> > 2) Andriol not available in the US. See the Files section for

> addt'l

> > info. It requires multiple doses per day. Some have trouble

> getting

> > stable levels or so I have heard. Don't think Proviron is

available

> > in the US. It is not testosterone unlike Nebido and Andriol.

> >

> > Brad

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Your correct Brad, Nebido is testosterone undecanote.

It is available in Europe/UK where is from. The US release

date is something I am not aware of- perhaps check the Schering

site?

Andriol which is Restandol in the UK and soon to be Testocaps in the

US I believe- it is also testosterone undecanoate.

With the oral forms there are the issues regarding the need for

multiple doses, but also it has virtually no conversion to E2 in

such dosing and very little effect on edogenous testosterone

production. Pros and cons with the orals by the look of it- in

practice I have no idea how good these meds really are.

These oral meds do not harm the liver due to their delivery

mechanism, which works via the lymph glands and avoids the I 7-alpha

alkylated mechanism issues associated with bad old orals such as

methltestosterone- which is now illeagal in 2/3rds of the world but

still oddly available in the US.

> > I got a hold of Testosterone Revolution by Malcolm Carruthers.

Very

> > interesting read. Some questions I walked away from it with:

> >

> > 1) He refers to some promising new injections undergoing

clinical

> > trials that have the possibility of an extended action between 2

and 4

> > months. Does anyone know anything about these?

> >

> > 2) Does anyone have any knowledge/experience regarding Andriol,

> > restandol (undecanoate), or Proviron (mesterolone)? I would

love to

> > see some studies on these.

> >

> > 3) Any knowledge on sublinguals (not buccal)?

> >

> > 4) Are pellets covered by Kaiser (does anyone know)?

> >

> >

> > Thanks!

> >

> > Drake

>

> 1) probably Nebido® (testosterone undecanoate) not yet available

in the US

>

> http://biz./bw/050729/295260.html?.v=1

>

> 2) Andriol not available in the US. See the Files section for

addt'l

> info. It requires multiple doses per day. Some have trouble

getting

> stable levels or so I have heard. Don't think Proviron is

available

> in the US. It is not testosterone unlike Nebido and Andriol.

>

> Brad

[Guest guest]

-

I am interested in your progress on this. Please keep us posted and

good luck!

Drake

> > > I got a hold of Testosterone Revolution by Malcolm Carruthers.

> Very

> > > interesting read. Some questions I walked away from it with:

> > >

> > > 1) He refers to some promising new injections undergoing

clinical

> > > trials that have the possibility of an extended action between

2

> and 4

> > > months. Does anyone know anything about these?

> > >

> > > 2) Does anyone have any knowledge/experience regarding Andriol,

> > > restandol (undecanoate), or Proviron (mesterolone)? I would

love

> to

> > > see some studies on these.

> > >

> > > 3) Any knowledge on sublinguals (not buccal)?

> > >

> > > 4) Are pellets covered by Kaiser (does anyone know)?

> > >

> > >

> > > Thanks!

> > >

> > > Drake

> >

> > 1) probably Nebido® (testosterone undecanoate) not yet available

in

> the US

> >

> > http://biz./bw/050729/295260.html?.v=1

> >

> > 2) Andriol not available in the US. See the Files section for

> addt'l

> > info. It requires multiple doses per day. Some have trouble

> getting

> > stable levels or so I have heard. Don't think Proviron is

available

> > in the US. It is not testosterone unlike Nebido and Andriol.

> >

> > Brad

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Guys,

>

> The Testosterone Revolution is a few years old now but still a good

> layman read, but Dr Carruthers latest book details information on

> Nebido and shows gausian graphs detailing testosterone release of

> many medications including Nebido.

>

> What I will say straight up is- the people I know on Nebido are not

> doing to well on it at all due to the rollercoaster effect and

> possible increases in E2 typically being up and down with good and

> bad weeks. Certainly E2 looks to be a significant issue on the face

> of it and to the believe of one individual.

>

I haven't troubled myself to investigate Nebido that carefully partly

because it isn't available in the US and partly because I expect it to

be expensive when introduced. I expect that to get the best treatment

from the drug it will be like other injectibles: the patient will

need to inject smaller doses more frequently than the marketing

materials suggest.

Brad

[Guest guest]

Nebido is very cheap.

Testosterone Undecanoate has a very low conversion rate to E2.

Because of that this form of testosterone should be ideal for many

men. However instead of using this fact to benefit the patient, the

medical community appears to have used this fact to benefit

themselves (the Nebido form)- giving very high doses 1000mg a shot

with the idea it is very easy for the physician and maintenance.

Despite the fact that it has a low conversion rate to E2, it still

causes E2 issues given the size of the dose. The effect is much the

same way that a light beer has a low alcohol content, but can still

get you drunk if you drink enough of it.

I am pretty certain that Nebido is going to be dead in the water as

a therapy within a year or so.

Testosterone Undecanoate though may well be another thing altogether

and might have a significant part to play in the future of TRT at

lower doses as you have indicated.

> > Guys,

> >

> > The Testosterone Revolution is a few years old now but still a

good

> > layman read, but Dr Carruthers latest book details information

on

> > Nebido and shows gausian graphs detailing testosterone release

of

> > many medications including Nebido.

> >

> > What I will say straight up is- the people I know on Nebido are

not

> > doing to well on it at all due to the rollercoaster effect and

> > possible increases in E2 typically being up and down with good

and

> > bad weeks. Certainly E2 looks to be a significant issue on the

face

> > of it and to the believe of one individual.

> >

>

> I haven't troubled myself to investigate Nebido that carefully

partly

> because it isn't available in the US and partly because I expect

it to

> be expensive when introduced. I expect that to get the best

treatment

> from the drug it will be like other injectibles: the patient will

> need to inject smaller doses more frequently than the marketing

> materials suggest.

>

> Brad

[Guest guest]

Drake,

1. They are using it in the UK it is called Nedibo and the guys I have talked

to that are on it are not doing good it does not last that long at all. Here is

a link to the UK site by Nick.

http://www.globalandropause.com/forum/disc6_frm.htm

As for the other questions I have no idea.

Phil

veganman23 <veganman23@...> wrote: I got a hold of Testosterone

Revolution by Malcolm Carruthers. Very

interesting read. Some questions I walked away from it with:

1) He refers to some promising new injections undergoing clinical

trials that have the possibility of an extended action between 2 and 4

months. Does anyone know anything about these?

2) Does anyone have any knowledge/experience regarding Andriol,

restandol (undecanoate), or Proviron (mesterolone)? I would love to

see some studies on these.

3) Any knowledge on sublinguals (not buccal)?

4) Are pellets covered by Kaiser (does anyone know)?

Thanks!

Drake