Re: Re: Lowering Estradiol

March 28, 2008

Good post Bill one thing I don't believe your levels were this high did you put

the gel on first then do your labs. If you did you spiked your test and your

gel make your levels of testosterone look this high. One should try to take a

shower first thing in the morning and get testosterone test first before putting

on the gel there is no way your levels were this high on that low of a dose to

testim only 50 mgs. or 5 grams of testim your lucky if your levels get past 450.

I feel you need to go back up on your dose so your not feeling worse. When you

first start on gels it can lower or stop your levels you had before starting the

gel. How this happens is your brain sees the testosterone from the gel and

stops sending the messages LH and FSH to your testis to make testosterone so

your levels before going on the gel will stop and all your left with is what the

gel can do. Some men end up lower then they started.

Also if you can't test in the morning it OK to put on the gel but not near the

spot they take the blood from and to do the test 6 hrs later.

Some men not all do good with a level of E2 between 30 to 40 I don't at 37 I

have problems and ED.

wmmarbury <wmmarbury@...> wrote:

Hi Phil:

Thanks for the comprehensive response to my question about the

testosterone and Estradiol (E2) balance. My endocrinologist at the

Veterans' Administration Hospital (VA) checked for E2 (at my explicit

request), but, when the result came back that my level was high at 37

pg/mL, he had no comment on this.

I had been on the gel (50 mg of testosterone per tube – Testim) for

three weeks when the blood tests were done. My total testosterone

tested at 1600 ng/dL and my endo cut my dosage in half – down to half

a tube a day (25 mg). But, as stated above, he had no comment on my

high E2 level of 37 pg/mL. The VA does not prescribe Arimidex (of

other aromatase inhibitors) because they are not FDA approved –

according to my endo. Additionally, my endo had apparently not heard

of the phytosubstance DIM, which I find very surprising.

Since I have often been fatigued and have had to take a nap in the

afternoon, I have come to understand that this has to do with a too-

high E2 level. Since the high E2 has rendered me generally deficient

in energy, one must conclude that I am not able to use the

testosterone that I am exogenously administering through TRT since

one would have to be active, both generally physically, as well as

sexually, in order to use the testosterone in one's body.

This means that one's body has unused testosterone coursing through

its blood vessels that causes the production of aromatase in order to

create a balance between the testosterone and the E2. This results in

the conversion of much of the unused testosterone into E2. The

overall picture then is both a high testosterone level and a high E2

level. The endocrinologist reacts to the high testosterone level by

cutting back on it, but he doesn't do anything about the high E2

level. The result here is that the individual is not functioning at

normal energy levels due to the high E2; and this low-energy level is

now exacerbated with the reduction in testosterone.

The study cited by Phil:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/3/1174

demonstrates that lowering E2 levels with aromatase inhibitors, such

as Anastrozole (Arimidex), raises testosterone levels due to the fact

that the available testosterone is not converted into E2 by aromatase

since the amount of aromatase in the body is decreased. As Phil

states: if a patient has hypogonadic symptoms, blood tests for E2

should also be done, and if E2 is high, then initial therapy of an

aromatase inhibitor or DIM would be indicated before TRT is tried.

Administering TRT without regard to E2 levels can result in an

increase of already-high E2 levels. The fatigue caused by the high E2

levels results in the body not being able to use the available

testosterone due to inactivity, and much of this testosterone is

converted by aromatase into more E2, resulting in more fatigue and

more confusion. The end result is that the patient becomes very

confused and frustrated. This process could be described as being

caught up in a " devil's circle. "

The conclusion that one must draw is that by not treating high E2,

physicians are inadequately dealing with the problem. Administering

testosterone, when a deficiency is established, is an obvious and

simple measure, but the necessity to attain " hormonal balance " is not

so obvious, and also not so simple.

Judging from the responses on this blogsite by posters, it is clear

that others have had the same experience that I have had, i.e., that

most physicians do not treat high E2 levels. The conclusion is that

we will have to figure this situation out for ourselves as several of

you have already done. My thanks to the posters wayback44, jmdetroit,

Steve, Tom Sweet, Dave, and all of the others who have contributed to

this topic, and, of course, thanks to Phil Georgian, who has made

this possible.

Regards, Bill

> > > Are there any other ways of lowering Estradiol than

> > taking Indolplex

> > > (with DIM)capsules or taking an aromatase ihnibitor?

> > >

> > > Are all aromatase inhibitors, such as Arimidex, to be injected?

> > >

> > > Can aromatase inhibitors be bought at local pharmacies with a

> > > prescription?

> > >

> > > My Estradiol level is 37 pg/mL, and I would like to bring it

down

> > into

> > > the twenties.

> > >

> > > I am now applying the gell Testim at 25 mg per day, but it

seems

> > that

> > > aromatase is still converting some of the exogenous

testosterone

> > into

> > > Estradiol.

> > >

> > > I don't eat soy products or grapefruits, and I eat brocalli and

> > cabbage

> > > daily since cruciferous vegetables are known to facilitate the

> > > metabolism of Estradiol.

> > >

> > > Thanks for the help, Bill

> > >

> > > Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half of

> what

> > you see. "

> > > Phil

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with

> Mobile.

> > Try it now.

> > >

March 29, 2008

Bill I hate to say this but you need to get away from the VA Dr.'s what they are

doing to you can to make you worse then if you did not do the gel at all.

Your putting on a very low dose this is going to be seen by your brain. This

does not happen to everyone but you need to know about it. Once your brain sees

this it will stop sending the LH and FSH messages from your pituitary in your

brain and your testis will stop making the T they were making before you started

on the gel. So lets say your testis were making 300 on your first labs now your

doing gel your brain stops sending the message to your testis so now all your

left with is what the gel is doing and 25mgs or 2.5 grams of gel will not give

you 300 so your levels are going to be lower. If this happens to your. It does

not happen to everyone but it does happen to most.

If your gong to do the 2.5 g's the stop the DIM I feel you well end up to low.

Was your levels for E2 37 before starting the gel is so then stop the DIM doing

less gel will lower your E2. If you keep doing the DIM you will go to low and

this gives one ED just as bad as to high.

Do not cycle TRT your body needs to be regular from day to day stopping puts

it into shock. Then it goes nuts trying to fix the problem of not getting the

T.

Not all men suffer bad with low T I am one that does If my levels drop I get

dam sick. If you start feeling bad can you call the VA Dr. and tell him what

you did before your blood was taken and ask him if you can go back up on the

gel.

Next labs you do that morning don't put the gel on and take a shower making

sure the old gel from the day before is off. In the area where they draw the

blood. Put the gel on when you get home or in the bath room at the VA.

Roy here is in his 80's on TRT with the VA and they give him Arimidex. He

also gets Cialis you would do good to get this and do 20mgs every 3 days this

will keep your night time wood going and the more you have them the more healthy

it is for your penis.

wmmarbury <wmmarbury@...> wrote: Hi Phil:

Regarding my total testosterone blood level of 1600 ng/dL: You are

right! I had only been on the gel for three weeks; I rubbed in the

gel, all 50 mg of it, at about 9:00 am; the blood was drawn at 12:30

pm – 3 ½ hours later. Additionally, the blood was drawn from my

forearm, right opposite my elbow, which is right below where I had

rubbed in much of the gel.

This was the first time that I had gone through this process of

rubbing in the gel and having blood drawn on the same day, so I

didn't know what I was doing. But, after I saw the results, I

realized what had happened: I had indeed " spiked " my testosterone

levels. I wanted to be conscientious and do it right, but,

unfortunately, I messed it up. Now, I have to wait until July before

I am able to have more blood tests done. If my total testosterone

level is low or in the low end of the normal range in July, then I

will have the possibility of having my dosage raised back to the full

50 mg again; until then, I have to get by on 25 mg per day. But,

three months is not all that long a time. During that time, I will

try to get my E2 levels down by using DIM.

My plan is to not apply any gel on the day that my blood is to be

drawn. They usually schedule for blood tests at the VA before 1:00

pm, by the way. I plan to rub in the full 25 mg on the morning

of " the day before " blood is drawn. Does this sound like a good idea

to you? Do you think that there is the possibility that my TT level

will be too low if I apply the gel on the day before?

Concerning my E2 level of 37 pg/mL: I still have ED problems, and my

wood is not consistent from night to night. At this point, I don't

know if this is due to a too-low level of testosterone or to a too-

high level of E2, or possibly to some other factor.

What do you think about " cycling, " by the way? I thought that I

could " cycle " by not applying the gel perhaps once a week. For those

who don't know what cycling is, it is " not administering testosterone

perhaps once every three of four days, or once a week, so that the

testes have an opportunity to produce their own (endogenous)

testosterone. This is a measure to reduce the possibility that the

testes will atrophy.

Regards, Bill

> > > > Are there any other ways of lowering Estradiol than

> > > taking Indolplex

> > > > (with DIM)capsules or taking an aromatase ihnibitor?

> > > >

> > > > Are all aromatase inhibitors, such as Arimidex, to be

injected?

> > > >

> > > > Can aromatase inhibitors be bought at local pharmacies with a

> > > > prescription?

> > > >

> > > > My Estradiol level is 37 pg/mL, and I would like to bring it

> down

> > > into

> > > > the twenties.

> > > >

> > > > I am now applying the gell Testim at 25 mg per day, but it

> seems

> > > that

> > > > aromatase is still converting some of the exogenous

> testosterone

> > > into

> > > > Estradiol.

> > > >

> > > > I don't eat soy products or grapefruits, and I eat brocalli

and

> > > cabbage

> > > > daily since cruciferous vegetables are known to facilitate

the

> > > > metabolism of Estradiol.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for the help, Bill

> > > >

> > > > Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half

of

> > what

> > > you see. "

> > > > Phil

> > > >

> > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with

> > Mobile.

> > > Try it now.

> > > >

March 30, 2008

Ok you sound like you did your home work even if your testis do stop working

mine did for 23 yrs. And when I went on HCG my testis came back. If you see a

Endo this should help you if you need to get a point accorss men that are

secondary use HCG to help treat there low T. Why let the testis stop working

when they can make T in the AACE Guildlines they use HCG to treat men.

http://www.aace.com/pub/pdf/guidelines/hypogonadism.pdf

wmmarbury <wmmarbury@...> wrote:

Hi Phil:

Thanks for the information that Roy gets Arimidex through the VA;

I'll mention this to my endo the next time I see him. Thank you also

for the information that Cialis is available through the VA, and that

Cialis can also be used as a type of " primer " in order to keep

nocturnal wood functioning. I'll talk to my primary-care physician

about this; I should be able to get some Cialis without seeing my

endo.

Concerning the continued production of testosterone by the testes

during the administration of exogenous testosterone (TRT): It is my

understanding that the pituitary gland produces luteinizing hormone

(LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) in accordance with the

amount of testosterone that is circulating in the blood. LH

stimulates the testes to produce testosterone, and FSH stimulates the

testes to produce sperm. If large and continuous amounts of exogenous

testosterone (T) are introduced to the body, the hypothalamus senses

the presence of this T and signals the pituitary gland to stop

producing LH and FSH, which results in the testes not producing their

own (endogenous) T. If this process is continued for any length of

time, the testes will shrink (atrophy), and their capacity to produce

T and sperm will diminish and possibly fade all together.

If, however, exogenous T is administered incrementally and in small

amounts, the blood would not be continuously satiated with exogenous

T; the hypothalamus would perceive this and would send a signal to

the pituitary gland, via gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH), to

produce LH and FSH, which would stimulate the testes to produce their

own T and sperm, thusly avoiding shrinkage (atrophy).

As has been pointed out on this blogsite, one way to stimulate the

testes to produce their own T and to continue producing sperm, while

at the same time administering large amounts of exogenous T, is to

inject human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG), which mimics LH and

stimulates the testes to produce their own (endogenous) T.

In my situation, the VA hospital does not authorize the use of hCG

for hypogonadism; it only authorizes the use of hCG for fertility

reasons, i.e., when a man is trying to make his wife pregnant. Since

I do not have access to hCG, in order to avoid testicular atrophy, I

have to be more cautious with the amounts and frequency that I am

administering exogenous T to my body; hence my regimen of applying

the gel twice daily at about 12 mg per time.

It should be pointed out that I am still in the process of

experimenting with various ways of administering T and controlling

E2: I have only been on TRT for about 16 months now. I started with

four months of patches, but they caused too much irritation. I was on

injections for nine months, but experienced too many peaks and

valleys because of the conversion of T into E2. I have now been on

the gel for about three months: the first six weeks at 50 mg per day,

and the last six weeks at 25 mg per day. Although I think I could use

a bit more T right now, my energy level has not been more stable in

many years, and my nocturnal wood and ED are improving. I am taking

DIM twice daily with meals in an attempt to bring my E2 levels down.

Concerning asking my endo at the VA for more blood tests right away:

I don't want to be too demanding. My condition right now is stable

and improving so I think that it would be best for me to wait the

three months until July and my next endo appointment.

From what I can gather, the endos at the VA are now having to spend a

lot of time with diabetic patients: this is because there are so many

overweight and obese people in the society now. A lab technician

weighed me prior to my last visit with my endo and entered my weight

as 270 pounds (I'm 6' 2 " ); I saw it on the computer screen and told

her that I only weigh 170 lbs. She told me that she automatically

entered 270 lbs because everyone she had seen that day weighed well

over 200 pounds.

Thanks for all of the information and advice.

Regards, Bill

> > > > > Are there any other ways of lowering Estradiol than

> > > > taking Indolplex

> > > > > (with DIM)capsules or taking an aromatase ihnibitor?

> > > > >

> > > > > Are all aromatase inhibitors, such as Arimidex, to be

> injected?

> > > > >

> > > > > Can aromatase inhibitors be bought at local pharmacies with

a

> > > > > prescription?

> > > > >

> > > > > My Estradiol level is 37 pg/mL, and I would like to bring

it

> > down

> > > > into

> > > > > the twenties.

> > > > >

> > > > > I am now applying the gell Testim at 25 mg per day, but it

> > seems

> > > > that

> > > > > aromatase is still converting some of the exogenous

> > testosterone

> > > > into

> > > > > Estradiol.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't eat soy products or grapefruits, and I eat brocalli

> and

> > > > cabbage

> > > > > daily since cruciferous vegetables are known to facilitate

> the

> > > > > metabolism of Estradiol.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks for the help, Bill

> > > > >

> > > > > Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half

> of

> > > what

> > > > you see. "

> > > > > Phil

> > > > >

> > > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with

> > > Mobile.

> > > > Try it now.

> > > > >

March 30, 2008

Bill you are in error when you said that Roy gets Arimidex through the VA

I ask for it and my doctor told me she doesn't know anything about that drug

so I have to buy it on the net from this Pharmacy:

http://www.steroidspharmacy.net/arimidex-p-90.html

It cost a little bit but it last a long time too since I only use .25mg per

dose

and only take it every 8 days. I do shots of T too and I have stablized at

this

doseage now for 8 months. I don't take any other drugs except what my

doctor has prescribed for me such as HBP and Colesterol. Plus vitamins.

I ask my doctor about my small testicales and she said don't worry about

them you don't need them at 84 anyway. I ask her about cialis and she

told me that she wouldn't or couldnt give that to me but she did start me on

Vardenafil HCL 20MG Tab, 1/2 tab per week. She doesn't know that

doesn't do a thing for me so I hold them up and when I want sex I take a

whole 20MG Tab at one time, does the trick.

My total T is now running about 850 range 240-950. My E2 is ok at 25

range 20-75. This still gives me wood and has stablized at that for all this

time so I am happy with the results. It took about 2 years to get to this

point. I don't know who told you that I get my Arimidex from the VA but

they might if your Doctor will give it to you.

Good luck Bill on your treatment. Remember I am much older than you

at 84 so hang in there, takes a long time but it's worth it.

Roy

philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote:

Ok you sound like you did your home work even if your testis do stop

working mine did for 23 yrs. And when I went on HCG my testis came back. If you

see a Endo this should help you if you need to get a point accorss men that are