Re: Anyone on TRT still having concentration and brain fog trouble???

[Guest guest]

Hi Bobby,

I still have " brain fog " , but I think it's been clearing up a little. I can do

single

tasks (like writing this), but I'm subject to distractions. " Multi-tasking " is a

bitch.

I have to cut back " to do " lists to the fewest essentials.

For what it's worth, your second test E2 of 91 was obviously too high. The

most recent 32pg/mL seems about perfect, IMO.

I've had spells of clarity that didn't last. One guess is the clarity allows me

to

work in high gear, trying to make up for lost time until I mentally crash. I

keep

forgetting that mental work is as exhausting as physical work. Then I get into a

negative feedback loop: I'm brain-fogged, which stresses & pisses me off.

which feeds the brain fog, which stresses & pisses me off....

How's your sleep? For me Wellbutrin sometimes interferes with sleep through

vivid dreams, and I wake up with stiffness & soreness in my neck & upper

arms. Brain fog can occur with general tiredness, or with sleep deprivation.

Do you have times of the day where you're more productive?

Wild guess: Has anyone experienced problems attributable to very high free

T?

Bruce

> I coming quickly to the need to pursue additional treatments and I'm

> hoping I can hear from you guys to get a feel for how " normal " my

> current condition is.

>

> In late June I started on a fairly heavy dosage of T-cyp (300

> mg/week) which finally got me into the top end of the 20+ year old

> range (this was where my endo wanted me to be - I'm 48). Within a

> week or two my concentration abilities improved DRAMATICALLY. This

> was a big change, everybody noticed and thought I had turned a

> corner. My work improved a great deal (I'm a software developer) and

> this lasted for about three weeks. Then the door shut pretty

> quickly. I'd come into the office and shuffle papers. I cannot get

> to my database design work which I was able to do with ease during

> those " golden " three weeks. Since then my mental state hasn't

> improved at all and at this point I would say I'm almost " disabled " .

>

> A second test to see where my Total T, Free T and E2 were at showed:

>

> Total T = 1350

> Range [20-39 years old] 400-1080

> Range [40-59 years old] 350-890

>

> Free T = 437.4

> Range 47 - 244

>

> E2 = 91

> Range <56

>

> At the beginning of August I started working with Dr. and he cut

> my T-cyp injection from 300 to 250 and added Arimidex (.25 mg EOD).

> He ordered up a large blood panel and part of the results are back (I

> had my PCP copied for the results and he called to ask about a few of

> the numbers and told me some of what had come in). I don't know what

> the Total and Free T numbers are but the E2 has dropped to 32 (which

> explains some of the wonderful sex my wife and I have been able to

> have finally).

>

> Also I am on Wellbutrin (300 mg / day) but the concentration and

> brain fog were just as bad before starting WB in December 2003.

>

> Here's my question. Have any of you guys found that TRT works for

> concentration trouble for a while and then the benefits diminish

> quickly? Is anyone taking other meds for concentration? If so,

> what, how much and how's it working? I'm beginning to wonder if this

> is the right path to be taking. Sure the sex is great but I need to

> be able to work and this doesn't seem to be cutting it. Anyone have

> any additional thoughts please chime in. I'm all ears...

>

> Bobby

[Guest guest]

Here is my list for your brain fog.

1. Thyroid

2. Arimidex side-effects

> I coming quickly to the need to pursue additional treatments and I'm

> hoping I can hear from you guys to get a feel for how " normal " my

> current condition is.

>

> In late June I started on a fairly heavy dosage of T-cyp (300

> mg/week) which finally got me into the top end of the 20+ year old

> range (this was where my endo wanted me to be - I'm 48). Within a

> week or two my concentration abilities improved DRAMATICALLY. This

> was a big change, everybody noticed and thought I had turned a

> corner. My work improved a great deal (I'm a software developer) and

> this lasted for about three weeks. Then the door shut pretty

> quickly. I'd come into the office and shuffle papers. I cannot get

> to my database design work which I was able to do with ease during

> those " golden " three weeks. Since then my mental state hasn't

> improved at all and at this point I would say I'm almost " disabled " .

>

> A second test to see where my Total T, Free T and E2 were at showed:

>

> Total T = 1350

> Range [20-39 years old] 400-1080

> Range [40-59 years old] 350-890

>

> Free T = 437.4

> Range 47 - 244

>

> E2 = 91

> Range <56

>

> At the beginning of August I started working with Dr. and he cut

> my T-cyp injection from 300 to 250 and added Arimidex (.25 mg EOD).

> He ordered up a large blood panel and part of the results are back (I

> had my PCP copied for the results and he called to ask about a few of

> the numbers and told me some of what had come in). I don't know what

> the Total and Free T numbers are but the E2 has dropped to 32 (which

> explains some of the wonderful sex my wife and I have been able to

> have finally).

>

> Also I am on Wellbutrin (300 mg / day) but the concentration and

> brain fog were just as bad before starting WB in December 2003.

>

> Here's my question. Have any of you guys found that TRT works for

> concentration trouble for a while and then the benefits diminish

> quickly? Is anyone taking other meds for concentration? If so,

> what, how much and how's it working? I'm beginning to wonder if this

> is the right path to be taking. Sure the sex is great but I need to

> be able to work and this doesn't seem to be cutting it. Anyone have

> any additional thoughts please chime in. I'm all ears...

>

> Bobby

[Guest guest]

Bruce,

Sounds like a familiar set of symptoms to me. As for the E2, I think

it's reduction has help mainly my sexual side of things. But I'm

glad to sees some progress. Now I want to keep it from going too low.

I know there's a chance I'm in a bit of denial but I really not so

terribly stressed over this. I think I'm mainly frustrated because I

was at a great point for a few weeks. Now everyone thinks I'm well

and won't hear me tell them I'm back to square two or three. My

customer's have been great but if they go, I understand. I cannot

fix this myself and it doesn't have a magical quick solution. I'm at

peace with the fact that this will take time to get it right. I just

don't want to do permanent harm in the process.

As for the long hours, I pulled some 10 hour days when I felt better

but it was easy for me and it was work I enjoyed. It didn't trigger

this.

I've been sleeping very well and have not been waking up as tired

since I've been on TRT. Before TRT, I felt like a wet dish rag in

the morning and needed a mid-morning nap. The Wellbutrin has helped

with mood a bit.

There doesn't seem to be any particular time of day when I work

better. Here's what the brain fog feels like to me. In my software

work, I have a product that uses a database made up of around 100

data tables. For the last year I could not draw a diagram showing

how one table relates to another. I couldn't even start and if I did

manage to start I couldn't get past the first three. During

that " golden " three weeks, I wrote that entire diagram in four

hours. Then over the next few weeks during that " golden " time I

found some new tables that needed to be added. I could find where

they belonged and update the diagram. The ability for me to do that

is now virtually gone.

I'm just wondering if there is a brain chemical component that is

missing here or gets amped up for a short while at the onset of TRT.

Thanks for the questions.

Bobby

> > I coming quickly to the need to pursue additional treatments and

I'm

> > hoping I can hear from you guys to get a feel for how " normal " my

> > current condition is.

> >

> > In late June I started on a fairly heavy dosage of T-cyp (300

> > mg/week) which finally got me into the top end of the 20+ year

old

> > range (this was where my endo wanted me to be - I'm 48). Within

a

> > week or two my concentration abilities improved DRAMATICALLY.

This

> > was a big change, everybody noticed and thought I had turned a

> > corner. My work improved a great deal (I'm a software developer)

and

> > this lasted for about three weeks. Then the door shut pretty

> > quickly. I'd come into the office and shuffle papers. I cannot

get

> > to my database design work which I was able to do with ease

during

> > those " golden " three weeks. Since then my mental state hasn't

> > improved at all and at this point I would say I'm

almost " disabled " .

> >

> > A second test to see where my Total T, Free T and E2 were at

showed:

> >

> > Total T = 1350

> > Range [20-39 years old] 400-1080

> > Range [40-59 years old] 350-890

> >

> > Free T = 437.4

> > Range 47 - 244

> >

> > E2 = 91

> > Range <56

> >

> > At the beginning of August I started working with Dr. and he

cut

> > my T-cyp injection from 300 to 250 and added Arimidex (.25 mg

EOD).

> > He ordered up a large blood panel and part of the results are

back (I

> > had my PCP copied for the results and he called to ask about a

few of

> > the numbers and told me some of what had come in). I don't know

what

> > the Total and Free T numbers are but the E2 has dropped to 32

(which

> > explains some of the wonderful sex my wife and I have been able

to

> > have finally).

> >

> > Also I am on Wellbutrin (300 mg / day) but the concentration and

> > brain fog were just as bad before starting WB in December 2003.

> >

> > Here's my question. Have any of you guys found that TRT works

for

> > concentration trouble for a while and then the benefits diminish

> > quickly? Is anyone taking other meds for concentration? If so,

> > what, how much and how's it working? I'm beginning to wonder if

this

> > is the right path to be taking. Sure the sex is great but I need

to

> > be able to work and this doesn't seem to be cutting it. Anyone

have

> > any additional thoughts please chime in. I'm all ears...

> >

> > Bobby

[Guest guest]

Brain fog is one of the most common complaints of thyroid patients who are

not being treated properly. Have you had a proper thyroid panel completed?

I recommend TSH, Free T3 and Free T4 at a minimum.

> Re: Anyone on TRT still having

> concentration and brain fog trouble???

>

> Bruce,

>

> Sounds like a familiar set of symptoms to me. As for the E2,

> I think it's reduction has help mainly my sexual side of

> things. But I'm glad to sees some progress. Now I want to

> keep it from going too low.

>

> I know there's a chance I'm in a bit of denial but I really

> not so terribly stressed over this. I think I'm mainly

> frustrated because I was at a great point for a few weeks.

> Now everyone thinks I'm well and won't hear me tell them I'm

> back to square two or three. My customer's have been great

> but if they go, I understand. I cannot fix this myself and

> it doesn't have a magical quick solution. I'm at peace with

> the fact that this will take time to get it right. I just

> don't want to do permanent harm in the process.

>

> As for the long hours, I pulled some 10 hour days when I felt

> better but it was easy for me and it was work I enjoyed. It

> didn't trigger this.

>

> I've been sleeping very well and have not been waking up as

> tired since I've been on TRT. Before TRT, I felt like a wet

> dish rag in the morning and needed a mid-morning nap. The

> Wellbutrin has helped with mood a bit.

>

> There doesn't seem to be any particular time of day when I

> work better. Here's what the brain fog feels like to me. In

> my software work, I have a product that uses a database made

> up of around 100 data tables. For the last year I could not

> draw a diagram showing how one table relates to another. I

> couldn't even start and if I did manage to start I couldn't

> get past the first three. During that " golden " three weeks,

> I wrote that entire diagram in four hours. Then over the

> next few weeks during that " golden " time I found some new

> tables that needed to be added. I could find where they

> belonged and update the diagram. The ability for me to do

> that is now virtually gone.

>

> I'm just wondering if there is a brain chemical component

> that is missing here or gets amped up for a short while at

> the onset of TRT.

> Thanks for the questions.

>

> Bobby

>

>

> > > I coming quickly to the need to pursue additional treatments and

> I'm

> > > hoping I can hear from you guys to get a feel for how " normal " my

> > > current condition is.

> > >

> > > In late June I started on a fairly heavy dosage of T-cyp (300

> > > mg/week) which finally got me into the top end of the 20+ year

> old

> > > range (this was where my endo wanted me to be - I'm 48). Within

> a

> > > week or two my concentration abilities improved DRAMATICALLY.

> This

> > > was a big change, everybody noticed and thought I had turned a

> > > corner. My work improved a great deal (I'm a software developer)

> and

> > > this lasted for about three weeks. Then the door shut pretty

> > > quickly. I'd come into the office and shuffle papers. I cannot

> get

> > > to my database design work which I was able to do with ease

> during

> > > those " golden " three weeks. Since then my mental state hasn't

> > > improved at all and at this point I would say I'm

> almost " disabled " .

> > >

> > > A second test to see where my Total T, Free T and E2 were at

> showed:

> > >

> > > Total T = 1350

> > > Range [20-39 years old] 400-1080

> > > Range [40-59 years old] 350-890

> > >

> > > Free T = 437.4

> > > Range 47 - 244

> > >

> > > E2 = 91

> > > Range <56

> > >

> > > At the beginning of August I started working with Dr. and he

> cut

> > > my T-cyp injection from 300 to 250 and added Arimidex (.25 mg

> EOD).

> > > He ordered up a large blood panel and part of the results are

> back (I

> > > had my PCP copied for the results and he called to ask about a

> few of

> > > the numbers and told me some of what had come in). I don't know

> what

> > > the Total and Free T numbers are but the E2 has dropped to 32

> (which

> > > explains some of the wonderful sex my wife and I have been able

> to

> > > have finally).

> > >

> > > Also I am on Wellbutrin (300 mg / day) but the concentration and

> > > brain fog were just as bad before starting WB in December 2003.

> > >

> > > Here's my question. Have any of you guys found that TRT works

> for

> > > concentration trouble for a while and then the benefits diminish

> > > quickly? Is anyone taking other meds for concentration? If so,

> > > what, how much and how's it working? I'm beginning to wonder if

> this

> > > is the right path to be taking. Sure the sex is great but I need

> to

> > > be able to work and this doesn't seem to be cutting it. Anyone

> have

> > > any additional thoughts please chime in. I'm all ears...

> > >

> > > Bobby

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dave,

Thanks, actually I had all three as part of a larger panel drawn

Wednesday. My mom had to take thyroid most of her life, but the only

thyroid tests I was ever given (two different occasions about five

years apart) before was TSH which always returned normal. Is it

possible for TSH to be fine but T3 and T4 be out of whack??? Thanks

for the tip. For once I'm slightly ahead of the game...

Bobby

> > > > I coming quickly to the need to pursue additional treatments

and

> > I'm

> > > > hoping I can hear from you guys to get a feel for

how " normal " my

> > > > current condition is.

> > > >

> > > > In late June I started on a fairly heavy dosage of T-cyp (300

> > > > mg/week) which finally got me into the top end of the 20+ year

> > old

> > > > range (this was where my endo wanted me to be - I'm 48).

Within

> > a

> > > > week or two my concentration abilities improved

DRAMATICALLY.

> > This

> > > > was a big change, everybody noticed and thought I had turned

a

> > > > corner. My work improved a great deal (I'm a software

developer)

> > and

> > > > this lasted for about three weeks. Then the door shut pretty

> > > > quickly. I'd come into the office and shuffle papers. I

cannot

> > get

> > > > to my database design work which I was able to do with ease

> > during

> > > > those " golden " three weeks. Since then my mental state

hasn't

> > > > improved at all and at this point I would say I'm

> > almost " disabled " .

> > > >

> > > > A second test to see where my Total T, Free T and E2 were at

> > showed:

> > > >

> > > > Total T = 1350

> > > > Range [20-39 years old] 400-1080

> > > > Range [40-59 years old] 350-890

> > > >

> > > > Free T = 437.4

> > > > Range 47 - 244

> > > >

> > > > E2 = 91

> > > > Range <56

> > > >

> > > > At the beginning of August I started working with Dr.

and he

> > cut

> > > > my T-cyp injection from 300 to 250 and added Arimidex (.25 mg

> > EOD).

> > > > He ordered up a large blood panel and part of the results are

> > back (I

> > > > had my PCP copied for the results and he called to ask about a

> > few of

> > > > the numbers and told me some of what had come in). I don't

know

> > what

> > > > the Total and Free T numbers are but the E2 has dropped to 32

> > (which

> > > > explains some of the wonderful sex my wife and I have been

able

> > to

> > > > have finally).

> > > >

> > > > Also I am on Wellbutrin (300 mg / day) but the concentration

and

> > > > brain fog were just as bad before starting WB in December

2003.

> > > >

> > > > Here's my question. Have any of you guys found that TRT works

> > for

> > > > concentration trouble for a while and then the benefits

diminish

> > > > quickly? Is anyone taking other meds for concentration? If

so,

> > > > what, how much and how's it working? I'm beginning to wonder

if

> > this

> > > > is the right path to be taking. Sure the sex is great but I

need

> > to

> > > > be able to work and this doesn't seem to be cutting it.

Anyone

> > have

> > > > any additional thoughts please chime in. I'm all ears...

> > > >

> > > > Bobby

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Yes, TSH alone is a bad measurement and not diagnostic (in mine and many

thryoid patients' opinion).

TSH measures the pituatary and hypothalumus signal to the thyroid to make

thryoid hormone. So in affect, all it really tells you is if those two

glands think there's enough thyroid hormone in the bloodstream. But what if

they are the defective hormones (just like they can be in Testosterone and

LH/FSH issues)? If they're mis-measuring the hormones in the blood, the

poor thyroid will never get the signal to make more.

> Re: Anyone on TRT still having

> concentration and brain fog trouble???

>

> Dave,

>

> Thanks, actually I had all three as part of a larger panel

> drawn Wednesday. My mom had to take thyroid most of her

> life, but the only thyroid tests I was ever given (two

> different occasions about five years apart) before was TSH

> which always returned normal. Is it possible for TSH to be

> fine but T3 and T4 be out of whack??? Thanks for the tip.

> For once I'm slightly ahead of the game...

>

> Bobby

>

> > > > > I coming quickly to the need to pursue additional treatments

> and

> > > I'm

> > > > > hoping I can hear from you guys to get a feel for

> how " normal " my

> > > > > current condition is.

> > > > >

> > > > > In late June I started on a fairly heavy dosage of T-cyp (300

> > > > > mg/week) which finally got me into the top end of the 20+ year

> > > old

> > > > > range (this was where my endo wanted me to be - I'm 48).

> Within

> > > a

> > > > > week or two my concentration abilities improved

> DRAMATICALLY.

> > > This

> > > > > was a big change, everybody noticed and thought I had turned

> a

> > > > > corner. My work improved a great deal (I'm a software

> developer)

> > > and

> > > > > this lasted for about three weeks. Then the door shut pretty

> > > > > quickly. I'd come into the office and shuffle papers. I

> cannot

> > > get

> > > > > to my database design work which I was able to do with ease

> > > during

> > > > > those " golden " three weeks. Since then my mental state

> hasn't

> > > > > improved at all and at this point I would say I'm

> > > almost " disabled " .

> > > > >

> > > > > A second test to see where my Total T, Free T and E2 were at

> > > showed:

> > > > >

> > > > > Total T = 1350

> > > > > Range [20-39 years old] 400-1080 Range [40-59 years

> old] 350-890

> > > > >

> > > > > Free T = 437.4

> > > > > Range 47 - 244

> > > > >

> > > > > E2 = 91

> > > > > Range <56

> > > > >

> > > > > At the beginning of August I started working with Dr.

> and he

> > > cut

> > > > > my T-cyp injection from 300 to 250 and added Arimidex (.25 mg

> > > EOD).

> > > > > He ordered up a large blood panel and part of the results are

> > > back (I

> > > > > had my PCP copied for the results and he called to ask about a

> > > few of

> > > > > the numbers and told me some of what had come in). I don't

> know

> > > what

> > > > > the Total and Free T numbers are but the E2 has dropped to 32

> > > (which

> > > > > explains some of the wonderful sex my wife and I have been

> able

> > > to

> > > > > have finally).

> > > > >

> > > > > Also I am on Wellbutrin (300 mg / day) but the concentration

> and

> > > > > brain fog were just as bad before starting WB in December

> 2003.

> > > > >

> > > > > Here's my question. Have any of you guys found that TRT works

> > > for

> > > > > concentration trouble for a while and then the benefits

> diminish

> > > > > quickly? Is anyone taking other meds for concentration? If

> so,

> > > > > what, how much and how's it working? I'm beginning to wonder

> if

> > > this

> > > > > is the right path to be taking. Sure the sex is great but I

> need

> > > to

> > > > > be able to work and this doesn't seem to be cutting it.

> Anyone

> > > have

> > > > > any additional thoughts please chime in. I'm all ears...

> > > > >

> > > > > Bobby

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Dave,

Thanks for the info...! I should get the results mid-next week.

I'll report back on what they find. Thanks again...

Bobby

> > > > > > I coming quickly to the need to pursue additional

treatments

> > and

> > > > I'm

> > > > > > hoping I can hear from you guys to get a feel for

> > how " normal " my

> > > > > > current condition is.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In late June I started on a fairly heavy dosage of T-cyp

(300

> > > > > > mg/week) which finally got me into the top end of the 20+

year

> > > > old

> > > > > > range (this was where my endo wanted me to be - I'm 48).

> > Within

> > > > a

> > > > > > week or two my concentration abilities improved

> > DRAMATICALLY.

> > > > This

> > > > > > was a big change, everybody noticed and thought I had

turned

> > a

> > > > > > corner. My work improved a great deal (I'm a software

> > developer)

> > > > and

> > > > > > this lasted for about three weeks. Then the door shut

pretty

> > > > > > quickly. I'd come into the office and shuffle papers. I

> > cannot

> > > > get

> > > > > > to my database design work which I was able to do with

ease

> > > > during

> > > > > > those " golden " three weeks. Since then my mental state

> > hasn't

> > > > > > improved at all and at this point I would say I'm

> > > > almost " disabled " .

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A second test to see where my Total T, Free T and E2 were

at

> > > > showed:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Total T = 1350

> > > > > > Range [20-39 years old] 400-1080 Range [40-59 years

> > old] 350-890

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Free T = 437.4

> > > > > > Range 47 - 244

> > > > > >

> > > > > > E2 = 91

> > > > > > Range <56

> > > > > >

> > > > > > At the beginning of August I started working with Dr.

> > and he

> > > > cut

> > > > > > my T-cyp injection from 300 to 250 and added Arimidex

(.25 mg

> > > > EOD).

> > > > > > He ordered up a large blood panel and part of the results

are

> > > > back (I

> > > > > > had my PCP copied for the results and he called to ask

about a

> > > > few of

> > > > > > the numbers and told me some of what had come in). I

don't

> > know

> > > > what

> > > > > > the Total and Free T numbers are but the E2 has dropped

to 32

> > > > (which

> > > > > > explains some of the wonderful sex my wife and I have been

> > able

> > > > to

> > > > > > have finally).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Also I am on Wellbutrin (300 mg / day) but the

concentration

> > and

> > > > > > brain fog were just as bad before starting WB in December

> > 2003.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Here's my question. Have any of you guys found that TRT

works

> > > > for

> > > > > > concentration trouble for a while and then the benefits

> > diminish

> > > > > > quickly? Is anyone taking other meds for concentration?

If

> > so,

> > > > > > what, how much and how's it working? I'm beginning to

wonder

> > if

> > > > this

> > > > > > is the right path to be taking. Sure the sex is great

but I

> > need

> > > > to

> > > > > > be able to work and this doesn't seem to be cutting it.

> > Anyone

> > > > have

> > > > > > any additional thoughts please chime in. I'm all ears...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Bobby

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Bobby,

I have experienced chronic brain fog in the past, which I no longer

experience now. Mine was caused by Adrenal Fatigue and related

Hypoglycemia. Once I treated these conditions, my brain fog went away.

I have posted a lot of information on this subject in another group

called hypoglycemia-talk. In order that I don't have to repeat

everything, I will post the following link which has other links in

it as well.

hypoglycemia-talk/message/5246

Another possible cause is low thyroid function, as one of the other

posters mentioned. Sometimes one can have low thyroid function, even

though the labs are all normal. This is called 's Thyroid

Syndrome. The best way to determine your thyroid function regardless

of lab testing, is to take your body temperature 3 times during a

day (not when you first wake up) at 3 hourly intervals and average

the temperature. This should be done for 3 days. The average temp

should be 98.6 or close to it. If it is consistently below 98.2, then

this would indicate a thyroid problem. Low thyroid function also

causes all one's hormones to be much lower. Correcting the thyroid

should increase all the hormones. Be sure to use the correct

thermometer, because believe it or not, they do not all work

properly, including the fancy digital thermometers. The only one I

have found that works accurately and is consistent, is one called

Geratherm. It is an old fashioned one which also happens to be the

one recommended by Dr. who discovered 's Thyroid. This

can be purchased at a large drug store or ordered from Dr. 's

website. I will include a link below with a picture of the

thermometer. You can also get more information about 's Thyroid

at this website.

http://www.wilsonssyndrome.com/Products/Thermometer.htm

I hope this helps you.

.

> I coming quickly to the need to pursue additional treatments and

I'm

> hoping I can hear from you guys to get a feel for how " normal " my

> current condition is.

>

> In late June I started on a fairly heavy dosage of T-cyp (300

> mg/week) which finally got me into the top end of the 20+ year old

> range (this was where my endo wanted me to be - I'm 48). Within a

> week or two my concentration abilities improved DRAMATICALLY. This

> was a big change, everybody noticed and thought I had turned a

> corner. My work improved a great deal (I'm a software developer)

and

> this lasted for about three weeks. Then the door shut pretty

> quickly. I'd come into the office and shuffle papers. I cannot

get

> to my database design work which I was able to do with ease during

> those " golden " three weeks. Since then my mental state hasn't

> improved at all and at this point I would say I'm

almost " disabled " .

>

> A second test to see where my Total T, Free T and E2 were at showed:

>

> Total T = 1350

> Range [20-39 years old] 400-1080

> Range [40-59 years old] 350-890

>

> Free T = 437.4

> Range 47 - 244

>

> E2 = 91

> Range <56

>

> At the beginning of August I started working with Dr. and he

cut

> my T-cyp injection from 300 to 250 and added Arimidex (.25 mg

EOD).

> He ordered up a large blood panel and part of the results are back

(I

> had my PCP copied for the results and he called to ask about a few

of

> the numbers and told me some of what had come in). I don't know

what

> the Total and Free T numbers are but the E2 has dropped to 32

(which

> explains some of the wonderful sex my wife and I have been able to

> have finally).

>

> Also I am on Wellbutrin (300 mg / day) but the concentration and

> brain fog were just as bad before starting WB in December 2003.

>

> Here's my question. Have any of you guys found that TRT works for

> concentration trouble for a while and then the benefits diminish

> quickly? Is anyone taking other meds for concentration? If so,

> what, how much and how's it working? I'm beginning to wonder if

this

> is the right path to be taking. Sure the sex is great but I need

to

> be able to work and this doesn't seem to be cutting it. Anyone

have

> any additional thoughts please chime in. I'm all ears...

>

> Bobby

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 04:02:41 -0000, you wrote:

>Here is my list for your brain fog.

>

>1. Thyroid

>2. Arimidex side-effects

>

>

The answer is in his post. E2 at 91 ! Ouch!

- - - -

Just another albino black sheep

[Guest guest]

Low levels of Estrogen can cause brain fog.

Never heard that high levels can cause brain fog.

>

> >Here is my list for your brain fog.

> >

> >1. Thyroid

> >2. Arimidex side-effects

> >

> >

>

> The answer is in his post. E2 at 91 ! Ouch!

>

>

> - - - -

> Just another albino black sheep

[Guest guest]

Yes that E2 value was alarming but I have gotten some partial results

from my blood test on Wednesday and my E2 is down to 32. I have had

this brain fog problem well before starting Arimidex. Actually since

I've been on Arimidex the only change that I can tell is improved is

my errections.

What strikes me as odd is, assuming for a moment that this may be

thyroid induced (I've called my doctors office to see if the TSH,

Free T3 and Free T4 numbers are available), why would it clear up for

a short period of time after we jumped the T-cyp dosage up?

I'll report my numbers when they call back...

Bobby

>

> >Here is my list for your brain fog.

> >

> >1. Thyroid

> >2. Arimidex side-effects

> >

> >

>

> The answer is in his post. E2 at 91 ! Ouch!

>

>

> - - - -

> Just another albino black sheep

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:28:36 -0000, you wrote:

>What strikes me as odd is, assuming for a moment that this may be

>thyroid induced (I've called my doctors office to see if the TSH,

>Free T3 and Free T4 numbers are available), why would it clear up for

>a short period of time after we jumped the T-cyp dosage up?

I'm guessing the as the T went up you had the full effects of it

before E2 started creeping up.

I'm wrestling though with the same issue. Experimenting with arimidex

and E2 levels. I'll get a week or more sometimes of clear and then

slip back into fog. I can't speak to thyroid issues.

I don't think fog is a side effect from arimidex.

- - - -

Just another albino black sheep

[Guest guest]

I got part of thyroid numbers back.

TSH = 1.50 (range 0.50 - 4.60)

Free T4 = 1.45 (range 0.71 - 1.85)

The lab had orders for a Free T3 level but didn't do the test,

ughhh! I'll have to wait on docs analysis of all the results but it

appears that my thyroid numbers are ok so far.

So I'm back to getting my brain function activated without ramping my

T-cyp dosages. I am not fatigued, I'm sleeping fine. I have been

tested for sleep apnea and I don't have that. It's just my

concentration and analytical skills have degraded. This has been

present prior to Arimidex and has not changed when I started taking

it.

Bobby

>

> >What strikes me as odd is, assuming for a moment that this may be

> >thyroid induced (I've called my doctors office to see if the TSH,

> >Free T3 and Free T4 numbers are available), why would it clear up

for

> >a short period of time after we jumped the T-cyp dosage up?

>

>

> I'm guessing the as the T went up you had the full effects of it

> before E2 started creeping up.

>

> I'm wrestling though with the same issue. Experimenting with

arimidex

> and E2 levels. I'll get a week or more sometimes of clear and then

> slip back into fog. I can't speak to thyroid issues.

>

> I don't think fog is a side effect from arimidex.

>

> - - - -

> Just another albino black sheep

[Guest guest]

> Shouldn't I be seeing the benefits

> of a more effective pool of T due

> to a lower E2? I've been on the

> Arimidex for over three weeks and

> nothing has changed mentally.

> Why would that be the case? Why

> shouldn't I be feeling the same as

> how I did from 6/24 through 7/14?

Because, as I've said many times before, even though Arimidex is great

at reducing blood levels of E2, it doesn't yield the improvements in

lean body mass, fatigue levels and libido that one would expect from

such E2 reductions.

Have you tried DIM (aka, Indolplex)? IMO, it's a much better E2

management alternative; however, it doesn't work for some men. If it

works for you, you'll experience all the benefits that accompany E2

reduction. See my 8 primer articles in the files section of this group.

The window of optimum E2 and T/E2 ratio is very narrow. Therefore, it's

very tricky to find the right dosages regardless of which E2 management

regime you use. Also, T shots make E2 mangement even more tricky due to

their rollercoaster effect on T levels.

> > Bobby it could be that you are like me and

> > need your levels near the top of the range.

I strongly doubt this. Supraphysiologic T levels result in

supraphysiologic E2 levels which are very undesirable for a variety of

well-known reasons. IMO, the best E2 management regime is keep T below

the top of the range in order to minimize excess E2 production.

My strategy is to boost T into the high normal range (600 to 900) and

reduce E2 to the high normal range (35 to 45).

[Guest guest]

Bobby I think I said this before that it is best to start low and work your way

up on the Testosterone meds. Hell 300 mgs per week is a lot of dam T. You

felt good maybe from the spike of T into your system but doing this is a road to

disaster. You did not put in the ranges with the tests. The change you felt

was from a spike of very high T Dr. talks about this and how addicting this

is and why it should not be done. The feeling I had from high E2 was mostly

sexual not up but very low. I had a low pain in my groin and would be up 2 to 3

times a night to go to the bathroom. And I had a lot of trouble keeping my T.

levels up and steady. Now that my E2 is down my T. levels are high on less

meds. I did have sore and hard nipples thet were a pain in the ass. I was

having trouble with my skin braking out in rashes and sweating all day long

always wet and felt panicky. I don't know what to tell you on the fog I get

this a lot when my levels were going up and down. I can

tell you that aside from a spike it takes a least 2 months for me to get back

to normal when my levels have fallen.

I still have a lot of fatigue today but as each day goes by I am getting back to

my old self.

Phil

bobbycfromep <clark.hypog@...> wrote:

Phil,

Let me run this thought by you with a little timeline. Sorry if this

a bit repetitive but in my state that's the best I can manage.

6/01 Started 300 mg T-cyp weekly

6/04 Total T = 1100

6/24 Feel great mentally

7/15 Starting to lose ground. Mentally not as sharp.

8/11 Total T = 1350 E2 = 91

8/18 Started Arimidex (0.25 mg EOD)

8/22 Changed injections 250 mg T-cyp weekly

9/08 E2 = 32 Total T unknown as of this note

Here's what I'm wondering and maybe you or someone else could chime

in here. Let me set this up based on the timeline above:

During the time between 7/15 and 8/18 my total T was high but E2 was

very high. It seems that the E2 would negate the benefits of the

higher T (by conversion). In contrast between 6/24 and 7/14 the E2

hadn't risen enough to convert enough T to make a " perceptible "

difference. Once the E2 got high enough it was converting more T and

my effective level was below 1100 even though the blood test had

total T at 1350.

Shouldn't I be seeing the benefits of a more effective pool of T due

to a lower E2? I've been on the Arimidex for over three weeks and

nothing has changed mentally. Why would that be the case? Why

shouldn't I be feeling the same as how I did from 6/24 through 7/14?

I know I need to get the total T figure from 9/08 but those results

won't be ready until next week (the lab processes T tests on Tuesdays

and Fridays). Thanks for letting me vent, I'm just frustrated that I

had this wonderful period of time and it went away all too quickly.

Bobby

> >

> > >Here is my list for your brain fog.

> > >

> > >1. Thyroid

> > >2. Arimidex side-effects

> > >

> > >

> >

> > The answer is in his post. E2 at 91 ! Ouch!

> >

> >

> > - - - -

> > Just another albino black sheep

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Phil,

I wish I could have found this information out back in November 2003

when my PCP started me on TRT. That's when things got started too

much, too quickly. The current level of injections is thanks to an

endo who got my total T to 1100 and then said " See me in January " , no

follow-up labs, nothing. I've been pressing for tests from my PCP

and have been working with Dr. . He's backing me away from the

edge slowly and carefully. Thanks for the concern! I wish you

well...

Bobby

> > >

> > > >Here is my list for your brain fog.

> > > >

> > > >1. Thyroid

> > > >2. Arimidex side-effects

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > The answer is in his post. E2 at 91 ! Ouch!

> > >

> > >

> > > - - - -

> > > Just another albino black sheep

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Dave,

>

> Because, as I've said many times before, even though Arimidex is

great

> at reducing blood levels of E2, it doesn't yield the improvements in

> lean body mass, fatigue levels and libido that one would expect from

> such E2 reductions.

>

> Have you tried DIM (aka, Indolplex)? IMO, it's a much better E2

> management alternative; however, it doesn't work for some men. If

it

> works for you, you'll experience all the benefits that accompany E2

> reduction. See my 8 primer articles in the files section of this

group.

>

I'm hoping that the use of Arimidex will lighten up here since my

numbers are in a better range.

>

> The window of optimum E2 and T/E2 ratio is very narrow. Therefore,

it's

> very tricky to find the right dosages regardless of which E2

management

> regime you use. Also, T shots make E2 mangement even more tricky

due to

> their rollercoaster effect on T levels.

>

The shots are purely an economic choice. I'm uninsured and this is

the cheapest TRT method. My trend, albeit slowly, is towards smaller

shots.

>

> IMO, the best E2 management regime is keep T below

> the top of the range in order to minimize excess E2 production.

>

> My strategy is to boost T into the high normal range (600 to 900)

and

> reduce E2 to the high normal range (35 to 45).

>

Have you had any of the concentration or mental problems under this

regimen? Did you before? Thanks for the insight and info...

Bobby

[Guest guest]

Bobby,

When you say

" As for the long hours, I pulled some 10 hour days when I felt better

but it was easy for me and it was work I enjoyed. It didn't trigger

this. " ,

I think you may be kidding yourself here. Just because you enjoy

something doesn't mean it can't wear you down. A couple weeks ago I

had a couple good weeks where I almost couldn't sit still. I didn't

think I was doing any harm at the time. Turns out I was. I think you

have to force yourself to get lots of rest to have a chance of

recovering from something like this. I think your work schedule is

doing you more harm than you realize.

If it continues to be a problem, you can have your doc look into

various ADD drugs like straterra and ritalin. But I would give the

TRT time to work by working at a slow pace the next several months.

You need to give your body A LOT more time than you feel that you do.

Some good advice I've heard is to only do a quarter to a half of what

you feel you are capable of doing. Your body needs to use energy to

recover. If you use up that energy working, etc, your body has no

energy left to heal itself.

I felt the way you did for years - I had to keep pushing. Now I'm

totally disabled because of it. I even had to leave early from a

really good friend's bachelor party tonight.

Mark

[Guest guest]

Mark,

I appreciate the advice and though it may sound like I'm in some sort

of denial I can honestly say that I'm not " kidding myself " . I'm

sorry if this is going to sound a little defensive and I apologize if

it comes across like a ranting fit. I'm really pretty calm and

collected. I think your reading way too much into that sentence you

quoted. And here's why...

This time lasted for only three weeks. I was not always working ten

hour days but got a chance to put in a lot of hours on the work that

I love. During that time I wasn't exhausted. I slept well. I

continued my exercise routine. I continued to play bass in our

church worship band and attended other functions and activities. My

wife and I saw a couple movies and rented a few more. I even got a

chance to play chess online a half-dozen times. And our sex

life...well that was pretty good :-}

Yet every time I got up in the morning I was full of new ideas that

worked the first time. This was different then anytime in the last

four or five years. Those ten hour days were simply to note a

remarkable change in my work abilities not a shift to heavy work

because I needed to catch up. I'm so far behind that no amount of

long hours will get me caught up.

There are two reasons why that time was great even though I'm back to

square one or have lost some of the benefit. One, it gave me hope.

Hope that I will eventually be able to work and see progress on tasks

that have languished for several years. That has been lacking all

along. There were promises in other people's stories but I hadn't

seen them until that Thursday in June.

Second, it proved to myself that I still had the mental capacity to

do my work. I wrestled early in the year with thoughts that I had

lost my ability to design and develop software. Having seen these

results I can be patient to find the right balance. I will not,

however, be complacent about agressively seeking a solution. I know

you didn't say that, I just needed to state it for myself.

Since that time (mid-July) I have been in a sort of forced rest

period since I cannot pickup projects and do any cogent work on

them. If I needed a break, I certainly have had plenty and nothing

has changed.

Right now the only pushing I'm doing is on the doctors and that's to

keep listening to how I feel and looking at the blood test results.

I know there is a proper combination that fits me, I just have to

find it in a manner that is sustainable in a healthy manner.

Sorry if this is ranting a bit. I really, honestly appreciate your

insight. It is good to know that there are individuals who have

walked similar paths. The fact that I shouldn't jump on the next

clear-headed moment is good advice. Also that this may be on a

slower pace then I might like. It's not necessarily good news but it

points out that I not the only one having these short periods of

clarity.

I'm sorry that you are still having difficulties. I mean no

disrespect to what you have gone through and what you know to be

true. I hope that along the way here you will find the answers you

need. Thank you very, very much for your input...

I now step off my soap box :-)

Bobby

> Bobby,

>

> When you say

>

> " As for the long hours, I pulled some 10 hour days when I felt

better

> but it was easy for me and it was work I enjoyed. It didn't trigger

> this. " ,

>

> I think you may be kidding yourself here. Just because you enjoy

> something doesn't mean it can't wear you down. A couple weeks ago I

> had a couple good weeks where I almost couldn't sit still. I didn't

> think I was doing any harm at the time. Turns out I was. I think

you

> have to force yourself to get lots of rest to have a chance of

> recovering from something like this. I think your work schedule is

> doing you more harm than you realize.

>

> If it continues to be a problem, you can have your doc look into

> various ADD drugs like straterra and ritalin. But I would give the

> TRT time to work by working at a slow pace the next several months.

> You need to give your body A LOT more time than you feel that you

do.

> Some good advice I've heard is to only do a quarter to a half of

what

> you feel you are capable of doing. Your body needs to use energy to

> recover. If you use up that energy working, etc, your body has no

> energy left to heal itself.

>

> I felt the way you did for years - I had to keep pushing. Now I'm

> totally disabled because of it. I even had to leave early from a

> really good friend's bachelor party tonight.

>

> Mark

[Guest guest]

> Bobby I think I said this before that it is best to start low and

work your way up on the Testosterone meds. Hell 300 mgs per week is

a lot of dam T. You felt good maybe from the spike of T into your

system but doing this is a road to disaster.

This is correct... body builders using testosterone in large

doses... and 300mgs is practically a dose they would use, get

this " HIGH " from these amounts.. they only use amounts like this for

8 weeks or so and taper off... the effects they feel can not be

sustained as the body adapts and literally tries to combat these

supraphysiological levels by converting it into estrogens and

desensitizing the receptors that have been saturated with T. So the

effects you were feeling were artificial... and not a real

indication of how you should feel.

[Guest guest]

Matt,

I remember that note from before. Unfortunately the 300 mg/week was

where my endo left me. We started in mid-may with 200 mg/week with

his goal to get me my total T around 1000 (though for my age the

range is 350-890). Two weeks at that level got my total T to 721.

He increased it to 300 mg/week. Once I reached 1100 total T I made

the mistake of telling him I felt great. He called it good, left me

no other instructions and said see you in January.

That's the third doc I've worked with who knows little or nothing

about how to treat this condition. I'm working with Dr. to move

back the dosage. I'm at 250 mg/week but with Arimidex added to move

my E2 down. I think I'm fairly screwed up right now, at least on the

total T side, and it's going to take time to bet things balanced. My

E2 is down very nicely and that has had some wonderful benefits.

Last week's blood tests are due in and I think we'll be changing the

dosages again.

It looks to me, based on the notes I've been getting, that I'm going

to have to find another approach to get my concentration and mental

faculties back. It was nice for that moment to see I still had

them. Now all I have to do is find them.

Thanks for the info about the higher injections. I wish I could get

my local doctors to pay more attention to this. I'll let you know

what happens next...

Bobby

> > Bobby I think I said this before that it is best to start low and

> work your way up on the Testosterone meds. Hell 300 mgs per week

is

> a lot of dam T. You felt good maybe from the spike of T into your

> system but doing this is a road to disaster.

>

> This is correct... body builders using testosterone in large

> doses... and 300mgs is practically a dose they would use, get

> this " HIGH " from these amounts.. they only use amounts like this

for

> 8 weeks or so and taper off... the effects they feel can not be

> sustained as the body adapts and literally tries to combat these

> supraphysiological levels by converting it into estrogens and

> desensitizing the receptors that have been saturated with T. So the

> effects you were feeling were artificial... and not a real

> indication of how you should feel.

[Guest guest]

Hi,

The 's Thyroid Syndrome stuff is fascinating, but really blasted by the

American Thyroid Association:

http://www.thyroid.org/professionals/publications/statements/99_11_16_wilso

ns.html

Bruce

>

>

> Another possible cause is low thyroid function, as one of the other

> posters mentioned. Sometimes one can have low thyroid function, even

> though the labs are all normal. This is called 's Thyroid

> Syndrome. The best way to determine your thyroid function regardless

> of lab testing, is to take your body temperature 3 times during a

> day (not when you first wake up) at 3 hourly intervals and average

> the temperature. This should be done for 3 days. The average temp

> should be 98.6 or close to it. If it is consistently below 98.2, then

> this would indicate a thyroid problem. Low thyroid function also

> causes all one's hormones to be much lower. Correcting the thyroid

> should increase all the hormones. Be sure to use the correct

> thermometer, because believe it or not, they do not all work

> properly, including the fancy digital thermometers. The only one I

> have found that works accurately and is consistent, is one called

> Geratherm. It is an old fashioned one which also happens to be the

> one recommended by Dr. who discovered 's Thyroid. This

> can be purchased at a large drug store or ordered from Dr. 's

> website. I will include a link below with a picture of the

> thermometer. You can also get more information about 's Thyroid

> at this website.

>

> http://www.wilsonssyndrome.com/Products/Thermometer.htm

>

[Guest guest]

This may not be the best method. my thryoid levels are high normal

and my body temp is consitently 97.1. This temperature is an average

over 30 days at 2 hour intervals. Most people are closer to 98 as an

average.

Chris

The best way to determine your thyroid function regardless

> > of lab testing, is to take your body temperature 3 times during

a

> > day (not when you first wake up) at 3 hourly intervals and

average

> > the temperature. This should be done for 3 days. The average

temp

> > should be 98.6 or close to it. If it is consistently below 98.2,

then

> > this would indicate a thyroid problem.

[Guest guest]

For more information on 's Thyroid Syndrome check:

http://www.wilsonssyndrome.com

>

> This may not be the best method. my thryoid levels are high normal

> and my body temp is consitently 97.1. This temperature is an

average

> over 30 days at 2 hour intervals. Most people are closer to 98 as

an

> average.

>

>

> Chris

>

> The best way to determine your thyroid function regardless

> > > of lab testing, is to take your body temperature 3 times during

> a

> > > day (not when you first wake up) at 3 hourly intervals and

> average

> > > the temperature. This should be done for 3 days. The average

> temp

> > > should be 98.6 or close to it. If it is consistently below

98.2,

> then

> > > this would indicate a thyroid problem.