Re: A possible alternative to HCG in the Crisler HCG Protocol

[Guest guest]

In Theory you would have thought it possible that Tribulus maybe

used as an alternative to HCG as it does increase endogenous

testosterone production.

However, some men (I have no idea as to their number) do not respond

at all to Tribulus but do to HCG. Something makes me feel that HCG

is more likely to work, but I do not know the different

pharmcoloical effects involved in terms of comparison.

Perhaps I am extrapolating from my own experiences a little, which

were HCG raised testosterone levels but didn't work for me, but

Tribulus did very little.

I would have thought HCG would be preferable as there is more

evidence to it working in this setting.

That said like anything it is horses for courses and if it works

well for you then go with it.

> I'm wondering if protodioscin - which is allegedly the

> active (or one of the active) LH-raising component(s)

> in Tribulus terrestris - in a standardized form (such

> as Twinlab Tribulus Fuel Extreme, which is alleged to

> contain at least 20% protodioscin) might be employed

> in combination with exogenously administered

> testosterone in a similar way to HCG?

>

> (With protodioscin, it would be necessary that the

> individual is capable of producing LH, versus HCG

> which apparently acts as an analog of LH.) The

> protodioscin could be taken orally, versus having to

> do injections of (prescription) HCG. The problem is

> trying to figure out at what stage(s) in the cycle the

> protodioscin should be taken, the amount, etc. My

> experience with herbals is that they work - when they

> are standardized - but that a tolerance is rapidly

> developed when they are taken every day. So taking

> protodioscin, e.g., once or twice, or three times a

> week might avoid the tolerance issue, while

> stimulating a natural production of testosterone to

> afford the benefits that Dr. mentions, e.g., in

> his paper " An Update To The Crisler HCG Protocol, "

> found here:

> http://www.ironlife.com/mag/issue13/crisler.shtml

>

> Any thoughts on this?

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

I will stay with HCG is only costs me $5.00 for 6 box's. I would have to pay

for Tribulus out of my pocket.

Phil

Hardy <frankwhardy@...> wrote:

I'm wondering if protodioscin - which is allegedly the

active (or one of the active) LH-raising component(s)

in Tribulus terrestris - in a standardized form (such

as Twinlab Tribulus Fuel Extreme, which is alleged to

contain at least 20% protodioscin) might be employed

in combination with exogenously administered

testosterone in a similar way to HCG?

(With protodioscin, it would be necessary that the

individual is capable of producing LH, versus HCG

which apparently acts as an analog of LH.) The

protodioscin could be taken orally, versus having to

do injections of (prescription) HCG. The problem is

trying to figure out at what stage(s) in the cycle the

protodioscin should be taken, the amount, etc. My

experience with herbals is that they work - when they

are standardized - but that a tolerance is rapidly

developed when they are taken every day. So taking

protodioscin, e.g., once or twice, or three times a

week might avoid the tolerance issue, while

stimulating a natural production of testosterone to

afford the benefits that Dr. mentions, e.g., in

his paper " An Update To The Crisler HCG Protocol, "

found here:

http://www.ironlife.com/mag/issue13/crisler.shtml

Any thoughts on this?

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Phil,

I was mostly thinking about the protodioscin (Tribulus) as a

possibility for people who couldn't get their doctor to prescribe

HCG. I've gotten my doctor to switch me from 200mg T cypionate every

2 weeks to 100mg once a week, but getting him to add in the HCG may

be more difficult. Maybe I'll get lucky, though.

I'm definitely going to need some sort of " bridge " to boost my T

levels in between injections, because after only about 3 days or so

the effects of the injection fall very rapidly. It's early in the

game for me, since I've only just had my second injection (100mg

given 9 days after a first injection of 200mg, which I'm viewing as a

loading dose), but I have a bad feeling that if I just had to resort

to T-cyp injections, alone, that I would need to do something on the

order of 120-150mg every 3-5 days to feel good. (I'm not noticing as

good an effect with the 100mg injection as the 200mg, but I could

tell that the 200mg dose was too much, at least initially.)

A nurse is going to be teaching me how to self-inject next week, so I

could theoretically try a more frequent dosing scheme than once a

week, but I really like Dr. 's idea of doing a combination of

exogenous T plus stimulating the body to produce its own T.

> I'm wondering if protodioscin - which is allegedly the

> active (or one of the active) LH-raising component(s)

> in Tribulus terrestris - in a standardized form (such

> as Twinlab Tribulus Fuel Extreme, which is alleged to

> contain at least 20% protodioscin) might be employed

> in combination with exogenously administered

> testosterone in a similar way to HCG?

>

> (With protodioscin, it would be necessary that the

> individual is capable of producing LH, versus HCG

> which apparently acts as an analog of LH.) The

> protodioscin could be taken orally, versus having to

> do injections of (prescription) HCG. The problem is

> trying to figure out at what stage(s) in the cycle the

> protodioscin should be taken, the amount, etc. My

> experience with herbals is that they work - when they

> are standardized - but that a tolerance is rapidly

> developed when they are taken every day. So taking

> protodioscin, e.g., once or twice, or three times a

> week might avoid the tolerance issue, while

> stimulating a natural production of testosterone to

> afford the benefits that Dr. mentions, e.g., in

> his paper " An Update To The Crisler HCG Protocol, "

> found here:

> http://www.ironlife.com/mag/issue13/crisler.shtml

>

> Any thoughts on this?

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

,

Don't take more then 100 mgs. a week for at least 4 weeks then get your blood

tested and if your under 800 then up the dose to 150 mgs. A week Dr. dose

not start his men on HCG right away he waits like 2 to 4 months until they

stabilize. Don't be in a big hurry give it time first you need to get your

levels high enough then you need to give your body and brain time to repair the

damage that having low T did. So take your time it is on your side.

When the time is right print out this link and show it to your Dr. this should

get him on board on giving you HCG.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/5/2595

Phil

frankwhardy <frankwhardy@...> wrote:

Phil,

I was mostly thinking about the protodioscin (Tribulus) as a

possibility for people who couldn't get their doctor to prescribe

HCG. I've gotten my doctor to switch me from 200mg T cypionate every

2 weeks to 100mg once a week, but getting him to add in the HCG may

be more difficult. Maybe I'll get lucky, though.

I'm definitely going to need some sort of " bridge " to boost my T

levels in between injections, because after only about 3 days or so

the effects of the injection fall very rapidly. It's early in the

game for me, since I've only just had my second injection (100mg

given 9 days after a first injection of 200mg, which I'm viewing as a

loading dose), but I have a bad feeling that if I just had to resort

to T-cyp injections, alone, that I would need to do something on the

order of 120-150mg every 3-5 days to feel good. (I'm not noticing as

good an effect with the 100mg injection as the 200mg, but I could

tell that the 200mg dose was too much, at least initially.)

A nurse is going to be teaching me how to self-inject next week, so I

could theoretically try a more frequent dosing scheme than once a

week, but I really like Dr. 's idea of doing a combination of

exogenous T plus stimulating the body to produce its own T.

> I'm wondering if protodioscin - which is allegedly the

> active (or one of the active) LH-raising component(s)

> in Tribulus terrestris - in a standardized form (such

> as Twinlab Tribulus Fuel Extreme, which is alleged to

> contain at least 20% protodioscin) might be employed

> in combination with exogenously administered

> testosterone in a similar way to HCG?

>

> (With protodioscin, it would be necessary that the

> individual is capable of producing LH, versus HCG

> which apparently acts as an analog of LH.) The

> protodioscin could be taken orally, versus having to

> do injections of (prescription) HCG. The problem is

> trying to figure out at what stage(s) in the cycle the

> protodioscin should be taken, the amount, etc. My

> experience with herbals is that they work - when they

> are standardized - but that a tolerance is rapidly

> developed when they are taken every day. So taking

> protodioscin, e.g., once or twice, or three times a

> week might avoid the tolerance issue, while

> stimulating a natural production of testosterone to

> afford the benefits that Dr. mentions, e.g., in

> his paper " An Update To The Crisler HCG Protocol, "

> found here:

> http://www.ironlife.com/mag/issue13/crisler.shtml

>

> Any thoughts on this?

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil,

I've been meaning to ask you a question about the

improvement that you see when you add the HCG (the

good stuff, that is) to your weekly dosage of 150mg

Depo-T: I think you mentioned that the HCG gives you

an improved sense of well-being, and I was just

wondering if the extra improvement that you feel - as

compared to when you were just doing the Depo-T

injection by itself - is just for the period of the

couple of days just prior to your next Depo-T

injection (by which time your T levels that are due to

the Depo-T injection have dropped), or if the

improvement is an overall improvement that you feel

for ALL of the days of each cycle? In other words, is

the HCG acting more like a " bridge " to keep your T

levels from dropping too much in between Depo-T

injections, or is it having some broader effect, or

both?

I hope that made sense, and thanks!

**********************************

philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote:

,

Don't take more then 100 mgs. a week for at least 4

weeks then get your

blood tested and if your under 800 then up the dose to

150 mgs. A

week Dr. dose not start his men on HCG right away

he waits like 2 to

4 months until they stabilize. Don't be in a big

hurry give it time

first you need to get your levels high enough then you

need to give your

body and brain time to repair the damage that having

low T did. So

take your time it is on your side.

When the time is right print out this link and show it

to your Dr. this

should get him on board on giving you HCG.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/5/2595

Phil

frankwhardy <frankwhardy@...> wrote:

Phil,

I was mostly thinking about the protodioscin

(Tribulus) as a

possibility for people who couldn't get their doctor

to prescribe

HCG. I've gotten my doctor to switch me from 200mg T

cypionate every

2 weeks to 100mg once a week, but getting him to add

in the HCG may

be more difficult. Maybe I'll get lucky, though.

I'm definitely going to need some sort of " bridge " to

boost my T

levels in between injections, because after only about

3 days or so

the effects of the injection fall very rapidly. It's

early in the

game for me, since I've only just had my second

injection (100mg

given 9 days after a first injection of 200mg, which

I'm viewing as a

loading dose), but I have a bad feeling that if I just

had to resort

to T-cyp injections, alone, that I would need to do

something on the

order of 120-150mg every 3-5 days to feel good. (I'm

not noticing as

good an effect with the 100mg injection as the 200mg,

but I could

tell that the 200mg dose was too much, at least

initially.)

A nurse is going to be teaching me how to self-inject

next week, so I

could theoretically try a more frequent dosing scheme

than once a

week, but I really like Dr. 's idea of doing a

combination of

exogenous T plus stimulating the body to produce its

own T.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Phil,

There's a new type of HCG, the following is something I copied from a

chat with one of Shippen's patients.

----------------------------------------------

made through Recombinant DNA new CG

Made with bacteria, instead of pregnant women stuff suppose to be

exactly like the human produced cg.

> Phil,

>

> I was mostly thinking about the protodioscin

> (Tribulus) as a

> possibility for people who couldn't get their doctor

> to prescribe

> HCG. I've gotten my doctor to switch me from 200mg T

> cypionate every

> 2 weeks to 100mg once a week, but getting him to add

> in the HCG may

> be more difficult. Maybe I'll get lucky, though.

>

> I'm definitely going to need some sort of " bridge " to

> boost my T

> levels in between injections, because after only about

> 3 days or so

> the effects of the injection fall very rapidly. It's

> early in the

> game for me, since I've only just had my second

> injection (100mg

> given 9 days after a first injection of 200mg, which

> I'm viewing as a

> loading dose), but I have a bad feeling that if I just

> had to resort

> to T-cyp injections, alone, that I would need to do

> something on the

> order of 120-150mg every 3-5 days to feel good. (I'm

> not noticing as

> good an effect with the 100mg injection as the 200mg,

> but I could

> tell that the 200mg dose was too much, at least

> initially.)

>

> A nurse is going to be teaching me how to self-inject

> next week, so I

> could theoretically try a more frequent dosing scheme

> than once a

> week, but I really like Dr. 's idea of doing a

> combination of

> exogenous T plus stimulating the body to produce its

> own T.

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

> Phil,

>

> Keep us posted on your results with switching over to Pergonal or

Profasi. I just refilled my script today with the APP brand but will

switch over too if it's going to make a difference. drugstore.com has

Pergonal for $43.45 which is about the same as i pay for the generic

APP so no big savings there.

>

When I searched on drugstore.com for pergonal, the site took me to

pregnyl. Both are fine but they aren't the same thing.

Brad

[Guest guest]

> Thanks I have not had time to look to this I wish Z was

posting where the heck is he. Have not heard from him in some time.

His stuff he put in the files and links section are not there anymore

did he get mad and take it off.

> Phil

>

He unsubscribed himself several weeks ago.

Brad

[Guest guest]

I have all 's papers on my hard drive if you guys want me to

post them up on the files section again.

> > Phil,

> >

> > Keep us posted on your results with switching over to Pergonal or

> Profasi. I just refilled my script today with the APP brand but

will

> switch over too if it's going to make a difference. drugstore.com

has

> Pergonal for $43.45 which is about the same as i pay for the

generic

> APP so no big savings there.

> >

>

>

> When I searched on drugstore.com for pergonal, the site took me to

> pregnyl. Both are fine but they aren't the same thing.

>

> Brad

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I have all 's papers on my hard drive if you guys want me to

> post them up on the files section again.

>

I don't want them there unless the author wants them there.

Brad

[Guest guest]

I wasn't aware that he told anyone he didn't want them on the

board. As far as I know we don't know how or why the files were

removed. Could have been the result of his ID being revoked or

closed or a bunch of other possibilities which could have resulted

in all associated files and entries being deleted. How do we know

what he wants or wanted? If he didn't explicitly say anything why

assume he didn't' want them on the board?

Regardless, if Brad decides to not allow them on the board I'll

email them to anyone that wants them, They're only 36k bytes zipped.

> > I have all 's papers on my hard drive if you guys want me

to

> > post them up on the files section again.

> >

>

>

> I don't want them there unless the author wants them there.

>

> Brad

[Guest guest]

Just checked. Seems z's last post was August 2nd, 2005 and then

he disappeared. Seems very strange! Twilight Zone strange considering

how active he was on this board and the positive tone of his last

message. Weird!

> > I have all 's papers on my hard drive if you guys want me to

> > post them up on the files section again.

> >

>

>

> I don't want them there unless the author wants them there.

>

> Brad

[Guest guest]

> I wasn't aware that he told anyone he didn't want them on the

> board. As far as I know we don't know how or why the files were

> removed. Could have been the result of his ID being revoked or

> closed or a bunch of other possibilities which could have resulted

> in all associated files and entries being deleted. How do we know

> what he wants or wanted? If he didn't explicitly say anything why

> assume he didn't' want them on the board?

>

> Regardless, if Brad decides to not allow them on the board I'll

> email them to anyone that wants them, They're only 36k bytes zipped.

>

He () deleted the files.

Brad

[Guest guest]

It actually tells you that " " deleted them? Or are you assuming

that he did because they could only be deleted by him or you? I'm

wondering if they could have been automatically deleted if a ID

is expired or removed. Did you delete them? I just don't know if we

know for sure what happened. I mean, if we had a post or something,

anything, indicating his intensions that would at least be something.

> > I wasn't aware that he told anyone he didn't want them on the

> > board. As far as I know we don't know how or why the files were

> > removed. Could have been the result of his ID being revoked

or

> > closed or a bunch of other possibilities which could have resulted

> > in all associated files and entries being deleted. How do we know

> > what he wants or wanted? If he didn't explicitly say anything why

> > assume he didn't' want them on the board?

> >

> > Regardless, if Brad decides to not allow them on the board I'll

> > email them to anyone that wants them, They're only 36k bytes

zipped.

> >

>

> He () deleted the files.

>

> Brad

[Guest guest]

> It actually tells you that " " deleted them?

Yes, it actually tells me that deleted them.

> Or are you assuming that he did because they could only be deleted

> by him or you?

No, I am assuming nothing.

> I'm wondering if they could have been automatically deleted if

> a ID is expired or removed.

I don't think so.

> Did you delete them?

No, deleted them.

> I just don't know if we know for sure what happened.

I know what happened because I looked at the log. deleted files

he had previously uploaded and then unsubscribed himself from the

group.

> I mean, if we had a post or something, anything, indicating his

> intensions that would at least be something.

Deleting a series of files indicates to me his intent is to not have

them in the files section.

Brad

[Guest guest]

I agree, I didn't know how you knew what exactly happened without

direct communication from him. But if the way the system works

indicates that he personally deleted them and then unsubscribed from

the group then that's a pretty good indication of his desires.

Thanks! I will still send the files to anyone that wants them as

personal email. Just let me know if you do.

Kind of rude to just leave like that in my opinion with no

explaination!

> > It actually tells you that " " deleted them?

>

> Yes, it actually tells me that deleted them.

>

> > Or are you assuming that he did because they could only be

deleted

> > by him or you?

>

> No, I am assuming nothing.

>

> > I'm wondering if they could have been automatically deleted if

> > a ID is expired or removed.

>

> I don't think so.

>

> > Did you delete them?

>

> No, deleted them.

>

> > I just don't know if we know for sure what happened.

>

> I know what happened because I looked at the log. deleted

files

> he had previously uploaded and then unsubscribed himself from the

> group.

>

> > I mean, if we had a post or something, anything, indicating his

> > intensions that would at least be something.

>

> Deleting a series of files indicates to me his intent is to not

have

> them in the files section.

>

> Brad

[Guest guest]

>

> Kind of rude to just leave like that in my opinion with no

> explaination!

>

It's customary. On any given day, several people subscribe and

several unsubscribe.

Brad

[Guest guest]

It's only rude because he was so active and so many people interacted

with him. People that unsubscribe but hardly ever post, and who no

one really knows, doesn't really matter if they post a goodbye or

not. I think that as many people as had interactions with him on this

board warrants a goodbye, IMO.

>

> >

> > Kind of rude to just leave like that in my opinion with no

> > explaination!

> >

>

> It's customary. On any given day, several people subscribe and

> several unsubscribe.

>

> Brad

[Guest guest]

> Thanks! I will still send the files to anyone that wants them as

> personal email. Just let me know if you do.

I'd appreciate that. You can mail them to me at:

colinpaulturner@...

Many thanks!

[Guest guest]

I do not consider it rude to unsubscribe & not tell everyone why.

I have been on several groups & usually do not explain WHY I leave.

If I am dis-satisfied for some reason, I usually explain why I am

leaving, but not always.

G

\

> >

> > >

> > > Kind of rude to just leave like that in my opinion with no

> > > explaination!

> > >

> >

> > It's customary. On any given day, several people subscribe and

> > several unsubscribe.

> >

> > Brad

[Guest guest]

Yea, that's the problem, He gave no mention of what he was doing so

we're all guessing as to why he left. Would have been better if he

would have at least left a one sentence note to us. I think it's

rude for anyone to leave like he did. This is a community of people

and as a community there is a particular decorum that is expected

IMO even though this is just an online community.

>

> >

> > Kind of rude to just leave like that in my opinion with no

> > explaination!

> >

>

> It's customary. On any given day, several people subscribe and

> several unsubscribe.

>

> Brad

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

There is not need to unsubscribe just Edit Membership and click on

no E-Mails and hit save. I do this all the time when I will be out

of town and when I get back I put it back.

Phil

>

> >

> > Kind of rude to just leave like that in my opinion with no

> > explaination!

> >

>

> It's customary. On any given day, several people subscribe and

> several unsubscribe.

>

> Brad

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yea, unfortunately isn't on " vacation " , if he was he wouldn't

have removed his files from the files section. Something happened

and he rudely bailed with no explanation. Lame!

> >

> > >

> > > Kind of rude to just leave like that in my opinion with no

> > > explaination!

> > >

> >

> > It's customary. On any given day, several people subscribe and

> > several unsubscribe.

> >

> > Brad

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Dr waited 10 months before starting me on HCG...

Re: A possible alternative to HCG in the Crisler

HCG Protocol

,

Don't take more then 100 mgs. a week for at least 4 weeks then get your

blood tested and if your under 800 then up the dose to 150 mgs. A week

Dr. dose not start his men on HCG right away he waits like 2 to 4

months until they stabilize. Don't be in a big hurry give it time first

you need to get your levels high enough then you need to give your body

and brain time to repair the damage that having low T did. So take your

time it is on your side.

When the time is right print out this link and show it to your Dr. this

should get him on board on giving you HCG.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/5/2595

Phil

frankwhardy <frankwhardy@...> wrote:

Phil,

I was mostly thinking about the protodioscin (Tribulus) as a

possibility for people who couldn't get their doctor to prescribe

HCG. I've gotten my doctor to switch me from 200mg T cypionate every

2 weeks to 100mg once a week, but getting him to add in the HCG may

be more difficult. Maybe I'll get lucky, though.

I'm definitely going to need some sort of " bridge " to boost my T

levels in between injections, because after only about 3 days or so

the effects of the injection fall very rapidly. It's early in the

game for me, since I've only just had my second injection (100mg

given 9 days after a first injection of 200mg, which I'm viewing as a

loading dose), but I have a bad feeling that if I just had to resort

to T-cyp injections, alone, that I would need to do something on the

order of 120-150mg every 3-5 days to feel good. (I'm not noticing as

good an effect with the 100mg injection as the 200mg, but I could

tell that the 200mg dose was too much, at least initially.)

A nurse is going to be teaching me how to self-inject next week, so I

could theoretically try a more frequent dosing scheme than once a

week, but I really like Dr. 's idea of doing a combination of

exogenous T plus stimulating the body to produce its own T.

> I'm wondering if protodioscin - which is allegedly the

> active (or one of the active) LH-raising component(s)

> in Tribulus terrestris - in a standardized form (such

> as Twinlab Tribulus Fuel Extreme, which is alleged to

> contain at least 20% protodioscin) might be employed

> in combination with exogenously administered

> testosterone in a similar way to HCG?

>

> (With protodioscin, it would be necessary that the

> individual is capable of producing LH, versus HCG

> which apparently acts as an analog of LH.) The

> protodioscin could be taken orally, versus having to

> do injections of (prescription) HCG. The problem is

> trying to figure out at what stage(s) in the cycle the

> protodioscin should be taken, the amount, etc. My

> experience with herbals is that they work - when they

> are standardized - but that a tolerance is rapidly

> developed when they are taken every day. So taking

> protodioscin, e.g., once or twice, or three times a

> week might avoid the tolerance issue, while

> stimulating a natural production of testosterone to

> afford the benefits that Dr. mentions, e.g., in

> his paper " An Update To The Crisler HCG Protocol, "

> found here:

> http://www.ironlife.com/mag/issue13/crisler.shtml

>

> Any thoughts on this?

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>