Lab Results - shocking numbers - comments please.

[Guest guest]

Wow! Just got my blood test results from Preventivelabs.com drawn last

Friday back:

I'm on 5 grams Androgel daily...I applied the AG on Thursday morning at 7:00

AM as usual, but on Friday I did not apply until after the blood draw, which

was at 4:00 PM, so it was 33 hours since last AG application.

Here are the numbers:

Prolactin = 10.7 (range 2.1 to 17.7)

Progesterone = 0.3 (range <0.3 to 1.2)

FSH = <0.3 (range 1.4 to 18.1)

LH = <0.3 (range 0.5 to 9.3)

Testosterone 1873 ng/dl (range 241 to 827) PLAB = SS

Testosterone, Serum** = 1594 ng/dl (range 241 - 827) PLAB = BN

Free Testosterone (Direct)** = >47 pg/ml (range 6.8 - 21.5) PLAB = BN

** these two test results confirmed by repeat testing

Estradiol, Sensitive = 80 pg/ml (range 3 - 70)

Estrogens, Total = 385 pg/ml (range 40 - 115)

(I believe the PLAB code means the blood was tested at two different labs -

I had two different panels drawn, one for thyroid plus Testosterone, and one

for Testosterone and Estrogens.)

(I won't bother with posting the thyroid tests in this group, just that they

indicate a bit more hormone wouldn't hurt.)

These numbers are shocking to me. My Testosterone levels are almost double

normal!!!! Estradiol's not as out of whack as I thought it would be (from a

saliva test I did a few weeks ago), but Total Estrogens are triple normal!!!

The FSH and LH are no surprise considering I'm on TRT and my Testosterone is

overflowing.

What's it all mean?

I'm thinking I should probably be dropping Androgel to 2.5 grams daily, half

the dose should cut the FT and TT in half...? Before starting Androgel in

mid-April my Total Testosterone was 115 on the same ranges, and Free T was

6.0 (range 9 - 25 from a different lab).

Do you think getting the T back down to in range will also drop the E2 and

E-Totals?

I know the badness of E2, but what about the Total E's being so high, what

are the ramifications of that?

What's confusing is I have none of the symptoms of too much Testosterone

that I would think of - I'm not at all aggressive, angry, no sleep apnea,

etc. My libido is actually a bit too much (some complaint, huh), I'm still

a weepy as posted before, and there's a bit of ED setting in, but that may

be from too much libido <grin>. I've lost 22 pounds since July 1st when my

thyroid meds increased, but stalled on losing weight (too much Estrogen?)

the last 10 days. I don't what gyno looks like exactly, and have always had

larger breasts (too much body fat) since getting really obese the last few

years, but my breasts seem more feminine than ever, and nipples more

sensitive (E2/Estrogen again?).

We were joking about my labs at the office this morning - a coworker said

with all that Testosterone I wanted to lift heavier weights at the gym, but

started crying when they put more weight on the end of the stick from too

much Estrogen.

I'm going to fax these labs to my PCP and see what he says, but am curious

what the " experts " here have to say.

Thanks, and sorry for the really really long post.

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I have no idea how to prepare for blood tests, but you could be using

too much. I guess you will get a comment from your endo about what is

going on. My endo said blood testing in my home area would get the lab

all excited as my levels would be higher than what they think is safe.

I was told by my endo that TRT that should be applied very gradually

using hormone pellets. They cause the least upset to the body's

regulation of hormones. UIsually there is no conversion of T to E.

Spurts of T from patches, gels or injections cause the body to react

wildly to ramping levels of hormone. The daily up and down changes

need to be eliminated. The cost is about the same and as I'm on

medicare most of the expense is covered by medicare in Augusta GA but

not so in other parts of the US.

ernestnolan

> Wow! Just got my blood test results from Preventivelabs.com drawn last

> Friday back:

>

> I'm on 5 grams Androgel daily...I applied the AG on Thursday morning

at 7:00

> AM as usual, but on Friday I did not apply until after the blood

draw, which

> was at 4:00 PM, so it was 33 hours since last AG application.

>

> Here are the numbers:

>

> Prolactin = 10.7 (range 2.1 to 17.7)

> Progesterone = 0.3 (range <0.3 to 1.2)

> FSH = <0.3 (range 1.4 to 18.1)

> LH = <0.3 (range 0.5 to 9.3)

> Testosterone 1873 ng/dl (range 241 to 827) PLAB = SS

>

> Testosterone, Serum** = 1594 ng/dl (range 241 - 827) PLAB = BN

> Free Testosterone (Direct)** = >47 pg/ml (range 6.8 - 21.5) PLAB = BN

> ** these two test results confirmed by repeat testing

>

> Estradiol, Sensitive = 80 pg/ml (range 3 - 70)

> Estrogens, Total = 385 pg/ml (range 40 - 115)

>

> (I believe the PLAB code means the blood was tested at two different

labs -

> I had two different panels drawn, one for thyroid plus Testosterone,

and one

> for Testosterone and Estrogens.)

> (I won't bother with posting the thyroid tests in this group, just

that they

> indicate a bit more hormone wouldn't hurt.)

>

> These numbers are shocking to me. My Testosterone levels are almost

double

> normal!!!! Estradiol's not as out of whack as I thought it would be

(from a

> saliva test I did a few weeks ago), but Total Estrogens are triple

normal!!!

>

> The FSH and LH are no surprise considering I'm on TRT and my

Testosterone is

> overflowing.

>

> What's it all mean?

>

> I'm thinking I should probably be dropping Androgel to 2.5 grams

daily, half

> the dose should cut the FT and TT in half...? Before starting

Androgel in

> mid-April my Total Testosterone was 115 on the same ranges, and Free

T was

> 6.0 (range 9 - 25 from a different lab).

>

> Do you think getting the T back down to in range will also drop the

E2 and

> E-Totals?

>

> I know the badness of E2, but what about the Total E's being so

high, what

> are the ramifications of that?

>

> What's confusing is I have none of the symptoms of too much Testosterone

> that I would think of - I'm not at all aggressive, angry, no sleep

apnea,

> etc. My libido is actually a bit too much (some complaint, huh),

I'm still

> a weepy as posted before, and there's a bit of ED setting in, but

that may

> be from too much libido <grin>. I've lost 22 pounds since July 1st

when my

> thyroid meds increased, but stalled on losing weight (too much

Estrogen?)

> the last 10 days. I don't what gyno looks like exactly, and have

always had

> larger breasts (too much body fat) since getting really obese the

last few

> years, but my breasts seem more feminine than ever, and nipples more

> sensitive (E2/Estrogen again?).

>

> We were joking about my labs at the office this morning - a coworker

said

> with all that Testosterone I wanted to lift heavier weights at the

gym, but

> started crying when they put more weight on the end of the stick

from too

> much Estrogen.

>

> I'm going to fax these labs to my PCP and see what he says, but am

curious

> what the " experts " here have to say.

>

> Thanks, and sorry for the really really long post.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Just heard from the doctor:

He doesn't know how to interpret these results (at least he admits it) and

wants to send me to an endocrinologist (the same one who's thyroid

management I wasn't too thrilled about).

He said it's very rare to put a man on Arimidex and he wouldn't consider it.

He pointed out that being overweight, having fat cells, and drinking alcohol

also cause high estrogen levels. Also that Androgel can convert to

estrogens and that may be the problem (well - duh! <smile>).

If I were treating myself I think I'd cut back the AG and add small amount

of Arimidex every few days - see what I get after a month and adjust

accordingly. The endo he wants me to see surely isn't going to know about

this stuff, she seems to be mostly thyroid and diabetes treatment. Time to

look around with a gusto for a competent TRT doctor.

> Lab Results - shocking numbers -

> comments please.

>

> Wow! Just got my blood test results from Preventivelabs.com

> drawn last Friday back:

>

> I'm on 5 grams Androgel daily...I applied the AG on Thursday

> morning at 7:00 AM as usual, but on Friday I did not apply

> until after the blood draw, which was at 4:00 PM, so it was

> 33 hours since last AG application.

>

> Here are the numbers:

>

> Prolactin = 10.7 (range 2.1 to 17.7)

> Progesterone = 0.3 (range <0.3 to 1.2)

> FSH = <0.3 (range 1.4 to 18.1)

> LH = <0.3 (range 0.5 to 9.3)

> Testosterone 1873 ng/dl (range 241 to 827) PLAB = SS

>

> Testosterone, Serum** = 1594 ng/dl (range 241 - 827) PLAB =

> BN Free Testosterone (Direct)** = >47 pg/ml (range 6.8 -

> 21.5) PLAB = BN

> ** these two test results confirmed by repeat testing

>

> Estradiol, Sensitive = 80 pg/ml (range 3 - 70) Estrogens,

> Total = 385 pg/ml (range 40 - 115)

>

> (I believe the PLAB code means the blood was tested at two

> different labs - I had two different panels drawn, one for

> thyroid plus Testosterone, and one for Testosterone and

> Estrogens.) (I won't bother with posting the thyroid tests in

> this group, just that they indicate a bit more hormone wouldn't hurt.)

>

> These numbers are shocking to me. My Testosterone levels are

> almost double normal!!!! Estradiol's not as out of whack as

> I thought it would be (from a saliva test I did a few weeks

> ago), but Total Estrogens are triple normal!!!

>

> The FSH and LH are no surprise considering I'm on TRT and my

> Testosterone is overflowing.

>

> What's it all mean?

>

> I'm thinking I should probably be dropping Androgel to 2.5

> grams daily, half the dose should cut the FT and TT in

> half...? Before starting Androgel in mid-April my Total

> Testosterone was 115 on the same ranges, and Free T was 6.0

> (range 9 - 25 from a different lab).

>

> Do you think getting the T back down to in range will also

> drop the E2 and E-Totals?

>

> I know the badness of E2, but what about the Total E's being

> so high, what are the ramifications of that?

>

> What's confusing is I have none of the symptoms of too much

> Testosterone that I would think of - I'm not at all

> aggressive, angry, no sleep apnea, etc. My libido is

> actually a bit too much (some complaint, huh), I'm still a

> weepy as posted before, and there's a bit of ED setting in,

> but that may be from too much libido <grin>. I've lost 22

> pounds since July 1st when my thyroid meds increased, but

> stalled on losing weight (too much Estrogen?) the last 10

> days. I don't what gyno looks like exactly, and have always

> had larger breasts (too much body fat) since getting really

> obese the last few years, but my breasts seem more feminine

> than ever, and nipples more sensitive (E2/Estrogen again?).

>

> We were joking about my labs at the office this morning - a

> coworker said with all that Testosterone I wanted to lift

> heavier weights at the gym, but started crying when they put

> more weight on the end of the stick from too much Estrogen.

>

> I'm going to fax these labs to my PCP and see what he says,

> but am curious what the " experts " here have to say.

>

> Thanks, and sorry for the really really long post.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 8/13/2004 11:53:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> emiles@s... writes:

> Hi,

>

> I have no idea how to prepare for blood tests, but you could be

using

> too much. I guess you will get a comment from your endo about what

is

> going on. My endo said blood testing in my home area would get the

lab

> all excited as my levels would be higher than what they think is

safe.

>

> I was told by my endo that TRT that should be applied very

gradually

> using hormone pellets. They cause the least upset to the body's

> regulation of hormones. UIsually there is no conversion of T to E.

>

> Spurts of T from patches, gels or injections cause the body to

react

> wildly to ramping levels of hormone. The daily up and down changes

> need to be eliminated. The cost is about the same and as I'm on

> medicare most of the expense is covered by medicare in Augusta GA

but

> not so in other parts of the US.

>

> ernestnolan

-------------------------------------------

Hi Ernest!

I pay $75 for a over three month supply of 10% T gel, and I think

you said you pay about $450 for a three to four month, similiar time

frame, for pellets and installation charge. This does not seem to me

to be about the same cost as you claim. And depo shots are even

cheaper, making pellets really one of the most expensive T

supplemention methods. Have I figured this right? I understand

your medicare pays for it but those of us who have to pay our oun

prescription drug charges, this is a big deal. Also, I really do

not understand you assertion that daily application of a T gel or

cream can qualifiy as " wildly ramping " testosterone. Yes, in theory

I suppose having pellets would be a constant flow, but to call a

daily application of T responsible for wildly ramping T seems to me

to be quite irresponsible and unnecessarily alarming. And there is

no question that it IS a surgical proceedure, no matter how minor,

and does not allow the user to self modulate their own T

supplemention, unless you personally dug out the pellets I suppose.

By this I mean that I can with a T gel simply opt to not put any on,

as I frequently choose to do for a couple of days, and my weight

drops a nice 4-5 pounds from eliminating the water retentive effects

of T supplementation. So, although I have looked into pellets and

have even met with a doctor willing to stick them in me, at this

point I am NOT convinced they are for me. For you ok, but there are

downsides that you seem to minimze. Pellets seem to be expensive by

comparison, and allow no self modulation when desired.

norton

[Guest guest]

Norton,

which componding pharmacy do you use? I am on androgel now, and

would love to talk to my doc about a componded gel. I am on 10 gm a

day. Even with my insurance it cost me $100.00 for a 3 month supply.

Another question, you talked about water retention. Isn't that

because of too much E rather than too much T?

Thanks,

Bob

> > In a message dated 8/13/2004 11:53:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> > emiles@s... writes:

> > Hi,

> >

> > I have no idea how to prepare for blood tests, but you could be

> using

> > too much. I guess you will get a comment from your endo about

what

> is

> > going on. My endo said blood testing in my home area would get

the

> lab

> > all excited as my levels would be higher than what they think is

> safe.

> >

> > I was told by my endo that TRT that should be applied very

> gradually

> > using hormone pellets. They cause the least upset to the body's

> > regulation of hormones. UIsually there is no conversion of T to

E.

> >

> > Spurts of T from patches, gels or injections cause the body to

> react

> > wildly to ramping levels of hormone. The daily up and down

changes

> > need to be eliminated. The cost is about the same and as I'm on

> > medicare most of the expense is covered by medicare in Augusta

GA

> but

> > not so in other parts of the US.

> >

> > ernestnolan

> -------------------------------------------

> Hi Ernest!

> I pay $75 for a over three month supply of 10% T gel, and I think

> you said you pay about $450 for a three to four month, similiar

time

> frame, for pellets and installation charge. This does not seem to

me

> to be about the same cost as you claim. And depo shots are even

> cheaper, making pellets really one of the most expensive T

> supplemention methods. Have I figured this right? I understand

> your medicare pays for it but those of us who have to pay our oun

> prescription drug charges, this is a big deal. Also, I really do

> not understand you assertion that daily application of a T gel or

> cream can qualifiy as " wildly ramping " testosterone. Yes, in

theory

> I suppose having pellets would be a constant flow, but to call a

> daily application of T responsible for wildly ramping T seems to

me

> to be quite irresponsible and unnecessarily alarming. And there

is

> no question that it IS a surgical proceedure, no matter how minor,

> and does not allow the user to self modulate their own T

> supplemention, unless you personally dug out the pellets I suppose.

> By this I mean that I can with a T gel simply opt to not put any

on,

> as I frequently choose to do for a couple of days, and my weight

> drops a nice 4-5 pounds from eliminating the water retentive

effects

> of T supplementation. So, although I have looked into pellets and

> have even met with a doctor willing to stick them in me, at this

> point I am NOT convinced they are for me. For you ok, but there

are

> downsides that you seem to minimze. Pellets seem to be expensive

by

> comparison, and allow no self modulation when desired.

> norton

[Guest guest]

> Norton,

>

> which componding pharmacy do you use? I am on androgel now, and

> would love to talk to my doc about a componded gel. I am on 10 gm

a

> day. Even with my insurance it cost me $100.00 for a 3 month

supply.

>

> Another question, you talked about water retention. Isn't that

> because of too much E rather than too much T?

>

> Thanks,

> Bob

________________________________

Bob, call Tom at Highland Pharmacy in Albuquerque at 505-243-3777

they are an old very excellent compounding pharmacy and they ship

anywhere. Tom mixes up a plastic jar that is 10% pure T compared to

the 1% in Androgel so I only use 1/4 of a spoon a day to get 12.5gm

of T into me. It is criminal how much Androgel is, all advertising

and profit clearly. And to your water question, I really don't know.

But, I do know that I gained a quick 6 pounds immediately after

doing one cc of Depo shot into leg for 30 years, and if I over apply

the T gel I gain a couple also. I eat two small meals a day and

work out with weights and swim so I know it is not a food thing. It

just has to be water retention. I do know that a couple of hours

after I slather on some in the morning T, my nipples get small and

hard.

And they are never " sore " . Sore I think is a sign of too much

estrogen, I think the spurt of T is causing it, but others have

disagreed. Maybe the margaritas and high sugar intake from two trips

a day to Starbucks no doubt also causes water retention!

Let me know if you talk to him, he is a great guy and knows as much

if not more than my endo, he recommended arimidex for E control and

also Indoplex with DIM to suck up the excess T and promote urinating

it out, I take two a day per his recommendation.

norton