Guest guest Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 I'm not sure encouraging - insisting even - that people do their own research rather than come here and " sop up " ideas from others is unkind or demeaning. First, we are all different, unique, and our experience may not translate into " the answer " needed by someone else. Coming here for an easy answer is not transforming the " expert " mindset that so many using traditional doctors have. The only way to get better, truly, is to take your own health in your own hands, research what is troubling you, what the doctors have done and why, what is troublesome with that, what alternatives are doing, and why and how, and then slowly glean what to do for yourself. Yes, input along the line from others who are working with various methods can also be helpful. But if you don't show that you're putting out some effort yourself, then I'd rather not " offer " you any information. I don't thank that's cruel. i think its expedient, and kind in the long run. It also helps to avoid the situation where someone gets sucked into offering up information that is being drawn out by the increasing active and hostile anti-alternatives folks, who are known to approach lists for simple information that leads to lengthy attacks, is misrepresented and produced as " proof " of what we're doing wrong. I think its VERY wise in today's atmosphere to be certain the person you are corresponding with is someone with a genuine need, other than to get information to attack you or alternative meds in general, and someone who KNOWS something about alternative meds, has done some research themselves from credible alternative sources, rather than from " anti-alternative " sources. Joy I, too, have " cringed " at most of Leo's posts/replies to this forum. Being new to the group, I have withheld comment, trying to get a feel for what could possibly be going on here to elicit the numerous demanding, demeaning and sometimes " just plain mean " posts by the MODERATOR, of all people! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 <<<< I, too, have " cringed " at most of Leo's posts/replies to this forum. Being new to the group, I have withheld comment, trying to get a feel for what could possibly be going on here to elicit the numerous demanding, demeaning and sometimes " just plain mean " posts by the MODERATOR, of all people! >>> Hey, Deb: could you post some of these?? I read this list regularly and don't recall seeing what you've stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 Dear Joy, Once again, you have 'hit the nail on the head' and expressed -- beautifully -- what is going on! You are so articulate. I really appreciate your responses. Many of the new people don't have the long history, as Leo and I do, of the 'trolls' and 'quackpots' who have come on the list deliberately to make trouble, to draw people out in futile arguments and to disrupt the list in general. They are against everything Dr. and other innovative, leading edge, health professionals stand for... Often they have started out sounding fairly innocuous. Sometimes they have made up 'persona's' that have been pretty ludicrous. After a while, one tends to become very suspicious. It is also true that people should realize that it's important to consider being responsible for their own health. Thank you for clarifying and expressing what I wish I could say... but you said it much better! Jan Bolen Sara Mandal-Joy <sarajoy@...> wrote: I'm not sure encouraging - insisting even - that people do their own research rather than come here and " sop up " ideas from others is unkind or demeaning. First, we are all different, unique, and our experience may not translate into " the answer " needed by someone else. Coming here for an easy answer is not transforming the " expert " mindset that so many using traditional doctors have. The only way to get better, truly, is to take your own health in your own hands, research what is troubling you, what the doctors have done and why, what is troublesome with that, what alternatives are doing, and why and how, and then slowly glean what to do for yourself. Yes, input along the line from others who are working with various methods can also be helpful. But if you don't show that you're putting out some effort yourself, then I'd rather not " offer " you any information. I don't thank that's cruel. i think its expedient, and kind in the long run. It also helps to avoid the situation where someone gets sucked into offering up information that is being drawn out by the increasing active and hostile anti-alternatives folks, who are known to approach lists for simple information that leads to lengthy attacks, is misrepresented and produced as " proof " of what we're doing wrong. I think its VERY wise in today's atmosphere to be certain the person you are corresponding with is someone with a genuine need, other than to get information to attack you or alternative meds in general, and someone who KNOWS something about alternative meds, has done some research themselves from credible alternative sources, rather than from " anti-alternative " sources. Joy I, too, have " cringed " at most of Leo's posts/replies to this forum. Being new to the group, I have withheld comment, trying to get a feel for what could possibly be going on here to elicit the numerous demanding, demeaning and sometimes " just plain mean " posts by the MODERATOR, of all people! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 I agree, Joy and Jan. I work with sick people and I'm guessing Leo does too. Because of the brainwashing that has gone on for the past 100+ years that sickness requires symptomatic treatment, people just can't get out of their own way, when it comes to taking care of themselves. They run off to the doctor for a quick fix. When they come onto this list, they're still looking for a quick fix to a symptom and most times the symptoms are now side effects to drugs and surgery. If the 'question????' post was legitimate then why don't those of you who still have the patience to deal with this type of person, post some help. Allow Leo his response as well, because maybe this person will be jolted into looking at being sick and getting well in a different way...the way Dr. sees it: Your Health Is In Your Hands. Re: Moderator's Attitude Dear Joy, Once again, you have 'hit the nail on the head' and expressed -- beautifully -- what is going on! You are so articulate. I really appreciate your responses. Many of the new people don't have the long history, as Leo and I do, of the 'trolls' and 'quackpots' who have come on the list deliberately to make trouble, to draw people out in futile arguments and to disrupt the list in general. They are against everything Dr. and other innovative, leading edge, health professionals stand for... Often they have started out sounding fairly innocuous. Sometimes they have made up 'persona's' that have been pretty ludicrous. After a while, one tends to become very suspicious. It is also true that people should realize that it's important to consider being responsible for their own health. Thank you for clarifying and expressing what I wish I could say... but you said it much better! Jan Bolen Sara Mandal-Joy <sarajoy@...> wrote: I'm not sure encouraging - insisting even - that people do their own research rather than come here and " sop up " ideas from others is unkind or demeaning. First, we are all different, unique, and our experience may not translate into " the answer " needed by someone else. Coming here for an easy answer is not transforming the " expert " mindset that so many using traditional doctors have. The only way to get better, truly, is to take your own health in your own hands, research what is troubling you, what the doctors have done and why, what is troublesome with that, what alternatives are doing, and why and how, and then slowly glean what to do for yourself. Yes, input along the line from others who are working with various methods can also be helpful. But if you don't show that you're putting out some effort yourself, then I'd rather not " offer " you any information. I don't thank that's cruel. i think its expedient, and kind in the long run. It also helps to avoid the situation where someone gets sucked into offering up information that is being drawn out by the increasing active and hostile anti-alternatives folks, who are known to approach lists for simple information that leads to lengthy attacks, is misrepresented and produced as " proof " of what we're doing wrong. I think its VERY wise in today's atmosphere to be certain the person you are corresponding with is someone with a genuine need, other than to get information to attack you or alternative meds in general, and someone who KNOWS something about alternative meds, has done some research themselves from credible alternative sources, rather than from " anti-alternative " sources. Joy I, too, have " cringed " at most of Leo's posts/replies to this forum. Being new to the group, I have withheld comment, trying to get a feel for what could possibly be going on here to elicit the numerous demanding, demeaning and sometimes " just plain mean " posts by the MODERATOR, of all people! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 Deb, there is in our world, and in our imediate e-mail world, what I choose NOT to be kind to, what I do not believe nor feel deserves my respect. We seem strongly to differ in this matter. I don't think kindness is always the right answer. It can be, when that is what you feel and what you are trying to communicate. However, It can also give a mistaken communcation, particularly in this format. Directness works better for me. And, bottom line, this is his list. If you don't like the attitude, you and anyone else who find it not to your liking, can create a different list and do it your way. Maybe soon as you deal with some of what has been happening in alternatives lists recently, you'll be more appreciative of this one and its moderator. I don't mean to be " mean " in this response, simply honest. Joy ----- Original Message ----- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 And perhaps the listowner simply wishes to instill the need for everyone to DO their homework. And may get incredibly fed up with the hundreds of people who come here and beg for help and then argue with what is offered, never having done their own research. i say the listowner has a right to ask for what he wants. And I'm fed up with people spending so much energy complaining. Its ridiculous. If you don't like it, find another list - this is Leo's list. Stop wasting the lists time on this side issue, and get back to information regarding Dr. 's methods. Some lists are endlessly chatty and " supportive " in a way that, when it comes to exchanging information in this format seems to me to waste incredible time. We're not friends, we're not neighbors. We can be respectful of that which is worthy of respect, providing that is where we truly are at at the moment and not a masked presentation to satisfy all the critics out there. Yes, this " poor soul " may have simply wanted information, and yes, some patient other soul may be able to help point them in the right direction to begin their own research. But PLEASE stop bickering about how the listowner chooses to respond. It is his list. Get over it. from my perspective your critique of Leo is completely disrespectful of his role in setting the tenor and intent of this list. That's his job. Its also completely disrespectful (not to mention naive and uniformed) to assume that my concern about " false " posts is paranoia. Being kind has its place. Being real with one's reactions is perhaps more important, particularly in today's political climate in regards to alternative methods. If you don't know what I'm talking about, then you haven't done your homework. Don't ask me to explain myself - I won't. Do your homework. Joy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 > Dear Joy, > > Once again, you have 'hit the nail on the head' and expressed -- beautifully -- what is going on! You are so articulate. I really appreciate your responses. > > Many of the new people don't have the long history, as Leo and I do, of the 'trolls' and 'quackpots' who have come on the list deliberately to make trouble, to draw people out in futile arguments and to disrupt the list in general. They are against everything Dr. and other innovative, leading edge, health professionals stand for... Often they have started out sounding fairly innocuous. Sometimes they have made up 'persona's' that have been pretty ludicrous. After a while, one tends to become very suspicious. Hi Jan and Joy, I have been on this list for at least 3 years. Jan is being kind in the above paragraph. The trolls have never left this list, just gone underground...but it is apparent that they love to stir up conflict...anything to get us off topic. I know from personal experience that Leo is one of the good guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 18:26:22 -0400, <schw9883@...> wrote in <002c01c39690$065c5fc0$6101a8c0@theschwa>: >Amen... Leo, you didn't do your position as moderator justice, >nor the group, nor the poster. >Your reply was crass, unhelpful and probably hurtful. Maybe it was only short?! Doing the moderator job on such a busy list is a really enormous task, probably done in the very little leisure time which theoretically should be given to the family. I am doing a lot of unpaid work myself and I know that if I am forced to choose between a short mail and no mail at all, I will write a short mail, just to make sure the point comes across. Heidrun Beer Workgroup for Fundamental Spiritual Research and Mental Training http://www.sgmt.at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 I will reply to this thread no longer. I again say, your and others repeated insistence that the listowner should be doing other than he is doing is disrepectful and " mean " even, far more than his honest expression in the tone he felt to give it. Do you notice the 'Tone " of your post??? You do not own this list. If you don't like it, go elsewhere. enough.Joy Sara, wakeup..Perhaps the listowner simply wishes to instill the need.... Did you not notice the *Tone* of Leo's reply.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 I was so surprised to log on this morning to find more whining regarding Leo. I was just about to get out of the shadows where I usually lurk, but you just about covered what I had to say, so thank you. The board was beginning to sound like some of the petty ones that I avoid. I was wondering when some body would ask the very few people to do some home work on their own. There are excellent search engines on the web. When some people expect to be spoon fed, have their shoe laces tied and their noses wiped, I would draw the line too. At the bottom of each post the link for Curezone is a click away. People when you have a legitimate question and you are stumped for an answer, help will never be denied here. If you do not understand Leo's position and the problems involved with a group like this one and the infiltrators, then there is some home work for you to do. If you want an apology, then we all apologize. If you want a hanging? no can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 I'm new here....but I'll give some feed back..Has anyone noticed since this all happened that there is no work or research being shared???....BlueWillow Re: Moderator's Attitude I was so surprised to log on this morning to find more whining regarding Leo. I was just about to get out of the shadows where I usually lurk, but you just about covered what I had to say, so thank you. The board was beginning to sound like some of the petty ones that I avoid. I was wondering when some body would ask the very few people to do some home work on their own. There are excellent search engines on the web. When some people expect to be spoon fed, have their shoe laces tied and their noses wiped, I would draw the line too. At the bottom of each post the link for Curezone is a click away. People when you have a legitimate question and you are stumped for an answer, help will never be denied here. If you do not understand Leo's position and the problems involved with a group like this one and the infiltrators, then there is some home work for you to do. If you want an apology, then we all apologize. If you want a hanging? no can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 >From: <schw9883@...> >Reply-Dr ><Dr > >Subject: Re: Re: Moderator's Attitude >Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 18:26:22 -0400 > >Amen... Leo, you didn't do your position as moderator justice, nor the >group, nor the poster. >Your reply was crass, unhelpful and probably hurtful. We are dealing with >souls who have feelings. And, Leo is also a soul who has feelings. He's doing what he thinks he needs to do to help the most people in the safest possible way. Any plans to practice what you preach when dealing with Leo? Vince _________________________________________________________________ Never get a busy signal because you are always connected with high-speed Internet access. Click here to comparison-shop providers. https://broadband.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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