Re: Final lab results: estradiol. now I am confused

[Guest guest]

I used OTC DHEA which raised my DHEA-S levels to the young adult

level. There was no effect on my estradiol or testosterone levels. I

had no improvement or worsening of my symptoms while using DHEA. I

also tried 7-keto-DHEA. I had no change in symptoms while using it

but there were no labs done. I don't think DHEA levels are all that

helpful in diagnosing hypogonadism.

I suggest that you download and print the AACE clincal guidelines.

http://www.aace.com/clin/guidelines/hypogonadism.pdf

Please see pg 5 for a discussion of the Clomiphene Stimulation Test.

I suggest that you undergo this test. If everything is working

correctly, after 7 days of 100mg of clomiphene there should be a

marked rise in your LH, FSH, and testosterone. Seeing how your LH and

FSH respond under stimulation would probably be more informative than

looking at the single point values you have. If your LH and FSH

levels don't respond robustly to clomid stimulation, that is

suggestive of secondary hypogonadism. If they do respond but

testosterone fails to rise, that suggests primary hypogonadism. I

took this test myself. My LH and FSH more than doubled (and went

outside of the reference range). My testosterone level did not

change. I have primary hypogonadism.

I don't think your estradiol level is " good " . I think it is probably

too low because your testosterone level is too low. As for your

enumerated items: 1) I don't know but I think you probably have a

testosterone deficiency, 2) the clomiphene stimulation test will give

you insight here, 3) skeptics will attribute your symptoms to depression.

Are you getting your information about clomiphene and hcg from

bodybuilder/roid sites? Both drugs have their uses. You should

appreciate that bodybuilders suffer from a temporary suppression of

their system when the cycle ends. They will recover eventually with

no treatment. Using clomid under those circumstances will speed

recovery by interfering with the negative feedback of the high levels

of hormones. After the excess hormones clear from the system, clomid

can be discontinued because the negative feedback of high hormone

levels is abated. The difference from your condition is that

bodybuilders don't suffer from hypogonadism and you don't have excess

hormones that will clear. Your situation (we suspect) is not

necessarily comparable. My concern is that you expect clomid to

" kick-start " your system and to continue without continuing the drug.

For bodybuilders, clomid accelerates what would have happened anyway.

If your hypothalamus/pituitary are not functioning properly (as they

are in bodybuilders), you won't get the same response or will need to

continue the drug in order to continue getting whatever benefit there is.

HCG is an effective treatment for secondary hypogonadism. It

substitutes for LH. For a bodybuilder ending a cycle it is less

useful because it doesn't stimulate the release of endogenous LH/FSH

the way clomiphene does. For them it stimulates the testes to produce

testosterone but simply puts off the process of getting the

hypothalamus/pituitary to secrete normal amounts of LH/FSH. For

someone suffering from secondary hypogonadism it can be a perfectly

acceptable treatment.

Good luck,

Brad

> Hoping some people in the forum may be able to help.

>

> ABOUT ME

> Age: 29

> Height: 68.5 "

> Weight: 170

> Atheleticism: NCAA D1 calibre

> Sexuality: was very high

> Muscle strength: was decent. Was just getting into working out (1 yr)

> so not spectacular but found pleasing gains.

> Bone density: much higher than normal as measured by DEXA scan this

> week

> Testicle size: have shrunk from both 25 to one 15-20 and one 20-25.

> Don't know when this started.

>

> Steroid or prohormone use: none

> Corticosteroid use: for eczema beginning Sept. 12

>

> SYMPTOMS

> Begining Sept 15 and reaching fever pitch by December 1:

> *sex drive down by factor of five (est.)

> *sex frequency down by factor of three

> *30% loss of muscle strenght

> *Sleep pattern disorder

> *Appetite loss

> *No morning or spontaneous erections

> *No more weekly acne

> *Moody

> *Tired easily

>

> November 19 lab tests:

> Testosterone

> 372ng/dl from range of 241-827

>

> December 12 lab tests:

> Testosterone

> 341 from range of 260-1000

>

> Free Testosterone

> 78.5pg/mgl from range of 50-210

>

> %Free

> 2.3% from range of 1.0-2.7

>

> TSH

> 1.3mIU/L from range of .5 - 4.7

>

> Prolactin

> 9.4ng/ml from range of 2.0-15.0

>

> LH

> 3.3 mIU/mL from range of .8-7.6

>

> FSH

> 1.7mIU/L from range of .7-11.1

>

> T4

> 7.1ug/dl from range of 4.5-14

>

> Lab Tests from December 22

> DHAS (same as DHEA-s)

> 430ug/dl from range of 260-580

>

> Estradiol

> <20pg/ml from range of <20 - 56

>

>

> Some of my scores are good (Estradiol) but others are terrible, FSH

> and LH. As my DHEA-s is in the mid-range I am wondering a few things:

> 1) whether I have always been low-normal T

> 2) whether my condition is a result of a pituitary problem

> 3) why if I have always been low normal T is it that I now feel tired

> easily, have lost strenght and my libido and sex performance are way

> down?

>

> According to the urologist, DHEA comes from the Adrenals so they seem

> to be working good, but the scores clearly indicate my pituitary

> function is low. Does this really jive - a good adrenal gland but a

> poor pituitary? What are the chances of that? I am trying to learn as

> much about HPA as I can but understanding the feedback loop isn't so

> straightforward.

>

> I have all the symptoms of a loss in T. I feel like the walking dead,

> often.

>

> My plan, try one more Dr. (and endo). If he doesn't help, then I will

> take Clomid for six weeks, using a 100mg/day dosage. The reason I

> would take Clomid is that, to my understanding, it kicks starts the

> production of LH and when you get off Clomid you may have a higher LH

> production value than when you started. As for HCG, I read that it is

> a pure substitute and does not kick start your system, so when you

> stop your balls return to pre-treatment production levels. However, I

> am far from expert on all of these issues.

>

> I would appreciate any advice on what you think might be happening to

> me. I won't have insurance for much longer and I can basically do

> what I want with it right now.

>

> Any other tests I should take? Fertility?

>

> Best,

>

>

[Guest guest]

:

Three points.

It is highly doubtful that the cortisone has affected you as severely as it

sounds like, as it appears, according to your reports, as the only variable

in September that coincides with your condition. I have used hydrocortisone

for years for heat rashes, and never had a response like that.

Second, have you had a vasectomy within the last two years? Within 3-18

months of the surgery, your body's immune system can actually eat up the

Leydig and Sertoli cells that your body depends on for testosterone

production. This condition is called autoimmune orchitis (AO), and the

cause of my hypogonadism.

Third, has your doctor suggested an MRI to look at your brain? Not to scare

you, but pituitary gland issues are often associated with brain tumors that

attenuate the pituitary's performance. An MRI would allow a radiologist to

determine whether there's bats in the belfry or not.

Concerning athleticism, that's a very good indication that you had good

testosterone levels. I played some high school football in the 80s, but got

very athletic in the mid/late 90s. I was bench pressing 400 pounds 20 times

every morning at 6 AM.I have lost some tone and nearly all of my strength,

but I am 5-10 and wearing a size 50 jacket. I had some estradiol problems,

but the TRT and zinc supplement have helped me slim up a bit. I'm also

taking 1g L-carnitine/acetyl L-carnitine twice a day, and it helps my mental

clarity and energy levels.

Todd

Final lab results: estradiol. now I am confused

Hoping some people in the forum may be able to help.

ABOUT ME

Age: 29

Height: 68.5 "

Weight: 170

Atheleticism: NCAA D1 calibre

Sexuality: was very high

Muscle strength: was decent. Was just getting into working out (1 yr)

so not spectacular but found pleasing gains.

Bone density: much higher than normal as measured by DEXA scan this

week

Testicle size: have shrunk from both 25 to one 15-20 and one 20-25.

Don't know when this started.

Steroid or prohormone use: none

Corticosteroid use: for eczema beginning Sept. 12

SYMPTOMS

Begining Sept 15 and reaching fever pitch by December 1:

*sex drive down by factor of five (est.)

*sex frequency down by factor of three

*30% loss of muscle strenght

*Sleep pattern disorder

*Appetite loss

*No morning or spontaneous erections

*No more weekly acne

*Moody

*Tired easily

November 19 lab tests:

Testosterone

372ng/dl from range of 241-827

December 12 lab tests:

Testosterone

341 from range of 260-1000

Free Testosterone

78.5pg/mgl from range of 50-210

%Free

2.3% from range of 1.0-2.7

TSH

1.3mIU/L from range of .5 - 4.7

Prolactin

9.4ng/ml from range of 2.0-15.0

LH

3.3 mIU/mL from range of .8-7.6

FSH

1.7mIU/L from range of .7-11.1

T4

7.1ug/dl from range of 4.5-14

Lab Tests from December 22

DHAS (same as DHEA-s)

430ug/dl from range of 260-580

Estradiol

<20pg/ml from range of <20 - 56

Some of my scores are good (Estradiol) but others are terrible, FSH

and LH. As my DHEA-s is in the mid-range I am wondering a few things:

1) whether I have always been low-normal T

2) whether my condition is a result of a pituitary problem

3) why if I have always been low normal T is it that I now feel tired

easily, have lost strenght and my libido and sex performance are way

down?

According to the urologist, DHEA comes from the Adrenals so they seem

to be working good, but the scores clearly indicate my pituitary

function is low. Does this really jive - a good adrenal gland but a

poor pituitary? What are the chances of that? I am trying to learn as

much about HPA as I can but understanding the feedback loop isn't so

straightforward.

I have all the symptoms of a loss in T. I feel like the walking dead,

often.

My plan, try one more Dr. (and endo). If he doesn't help, then I will

take Clomid for six weeks, using a 100mg/day dosage. The reason I

would take Clomid is that, to my understanding, it kicks starts the

production of LH and when you get off Clomid you may have a higher LH

production value than when you started. As for HCG, I read that it is

a pure substitute and does not kick start your system, so when you

stop your balls return to pre-treatment production levels. However, I

am far from expert on all of these issues.

I would appreciate any advice on what you think might be happening to

me. I won't have insurance for much longer and I can basically do

what I want with it right now.

Any other tests I should take? Fertility?

Best,

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/25/2003 7:08:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,

cbrcouple2002@... writes:

> What quantity of Cortisone are you taking and in what form?

>

> I was taking oral Cortisone (25mg / day tapering to zero) for about

> 18 months because of a serious lung condition. The end result is I

> now have Diabetes due to the Cortisone supressing my Glucose

> production. It also supressed my Testosterone, which never fully

> recovered.

>

> From Australia

>

I was taking 5 grams corticosteroid cream per day. I have beem talking it on

and off for 10 years. I was taking it for four weeks when the bottom fell out.

?

[Guest guest]

What quantity of Cortisone are you taking and in what form?

I was taking oral Cortisone (25mg / day tapering to zero) for about

18 months because of a serious lung condition. The end result is I

now have Diabetes due to the Cortisone supressing my Glucose

production. It also supressed my Testosterone, which never fully

recovered.

From Australia

> Hoping some people in the forum may be able to help.

>

> ABOUT ME

> Age: 29

> Height: 68.5 "

> Weight: 170

> Atheleticism: NCAA D1 calibre

> Sexuality: was very high

> Muscle strength: was decent. Was just getting into working out (1

yr)

> so not spectacular but found pleasing gains.

> Bone density: much higher than normal as measured by DEXA scan this

> week

> Testicle size: have shrunk from both 25 to one 15-20 and one 20-25.

> Don't know when this started.

>

> Steroid or prohormone use: none

> Corticosteroid use: for eczema beginning Sept. 12

>

> SYMPTOMS

> Begining Sept 15 and reaching fever pitch by December 1:

> *sex drive down by factor of five (est.)

> *sex frequency down by factor of three

> *30% loss of muscle strenght

> *Sleep pattern disorder

> *Appetite loss

> *No morning or spontaneous erections

> *No more weekly acne

> *Moody

> *Tired easily

>

> November 19 lab tests:

> Testosterone

> 372ng/dl from range of 241-827

>

> December 12 lab tests:

> Testosterone

> 341 from range of 260-1000

>

> Free Testosterone

> 78.5pg/mgl from range of 50-210

>

> %Free

> 2.3% from range of 1.0-2.7

>

> TSH

> 1.3mIU/L from range of .5 - 4.7

>

> Prolactin

> 9.4ng/ml from range of 2.0-15.0

>

> LH

> 3.3 mIU/mL from range of .8-7.6

>

> FSH

> 1.7mIU/L from range of .7-11.1

>

> T4

> 7.1ug/dl from range of 4.5-14

>

> Lab Tests from December 22

> DHAS (same as DHEA-s)

> 430ug/dl from range of 260-580

>

> Estradiol

> <20pg/ml from range of <20 - 56

>

>

> Some of my scores are good (Estradiol) but others are terrible, FSH

> and LH. As my DHEA-s is in the mid-range I am wondering a few

things:

> 1) whether I have always been low-normal T

> 2) whether my condition is a result of a pituitary problem

> 3) why if I have always been low normal T is it that I now feel

tired

> easily, have lost strenght and my libido and sex performance are

way

> down?

>

> According to the urologist, DHEA comes from the Adrenals so they

seem

> to be working good, but the scores clearly indicate my pituitary

> function is low. Does this really jive - a good adrenal gland but a

> poor pituitary? What are the chances of that? I am trying to learn

as

> much about HPA as I can but understanding the feedback loop isn't

so

> straightforward.

>

> I have all the symptoms of a loss in T. I feel like the walking

dead,

> often.

>

> My plan, try one more Dr. (and endo). If he doesn't help, then I

will

> take Clomid for six weeks, using a 100mg/day dosage. The reason I

> would take Clomid is that, to my understanding, it kicks starts the

> production of LH and when you get off Clomid you may have a higher

LH

> production value than when you started. As for HCG, I read that it

is

> a pure substitute and does not kick start your system, so when you

> stop your balls return to pre-treatment production levels. However,

I

> am far from expert on all of these issues.

>

> I would appreciate any advice on what you think might be happening

to

> me. I won't have insurance for much longer and I can basically do

> what I want with it right now.

>

> Any other tests I should take? Fertility?

>

> Best,

>

>

[Guest guest]

It is tough to say for sure just from the info presented. But I

would say it is by far most likely that your levels were not always

low, that they have been kicked into low by the Corticosteroid use.

There is no way that you should be happy living with your current

levels, they are way to low for a 29 year old and levels that low

will cause all of the bad symptoms you have had over the past few

months.

Your plan of action with clomid is great. Unfortunately though,

clomid is not super powerful. Personally, I would suggest starting

clomid immediately, but also taking HCG in the begining. HCG will

get your levels nice and high and hopefully clomid will keep them

there. After you are feeling better, quit the HCG and stay on the

clomid. There might be a week or two where your levels drop a bit

and you feel like not quite as good, but then hopefully your levels

will come back up again and your system will be mostly restored. At

that time you can try even quiting the clomid.

HCG will give you a nice kickstart and get your testicles working

again, that way you don't have to take the long slow road. This is

the approach that many bodybuilders take. You shouldn't have to take

the HCG for more than a couple of weeks to a month.

The Clomid you can stay on for relatively long period of time (up to

a year absolutely no problem) with little or no negative side

effects. One advantage that Clomid has is that it will also help

combat testosterone conversion to estradiol.

Whatever your doctor tells you, your levels are WAY too low and that

is 99% chance the reason you are having these negative symptoms.

As far as your bone density is concerned, bone loss does not occur

overnight. So your bones are healthy now because you haven't had low

testosterone before. If you go 10 more years at those levels, expect

a bone test then to be much less positive. Still though, saying

that because your levels are high is 100% proof that your levels

were high before and have only recently dropped, is enough to

convince me, but I am doubtful enough to convince a naysayer doctor.

They are VERY hard to convince. It is almost like trying to convince

a Christian to become a Jew. Or with some, perhaps even more like

trying to convince a Jew to become an Arab, or vice versa. Not so

easy! The best bet is ALWAYS to find a doctor who uses these

treatments already and go to them. You can do that by calling

pharmacies, finding out which ones stock HCG and asking them to send

you a list of doctors prescribing it for male patients. (This

pharmacy will most likely be the one that specializes in supplying

fertility drugs).

Cheers,

Armyguy

Cheers,

Armyguy

Armyguy

> Hoping some people in the forum may be able to help.

>

> ABOUT ME

> Age: 29

> Height: 68.5 "

> Weight: 170

> Atheleticism: NCAA D1 calibre

> Sexuality: was very high

> Muscle strength: was decent. Was just getting into working out (1

yr)

> so not spectacular but found pleasing gains.

> Bone density: much higher than normal as measured by DEXA scan

this

> week

> Testicle size: have shrunk from both 25 to one 15-20 and one 20-

25.

> Don't know when this started.

>

> Steroid or prohormone use: none

> Corticosteroid use: for eczema beginning Sept. 12

>

> SYMPTOMS

> Begining Sept 15 and reaching fever pitch by December 1:

> *sex drive down by factor of five (est.)

> *sex frequency down by factor of three

> *30% loss of muscle strenght

> *Sleep pattern disorder

> *Appetite loss

> *No morning or spontaneous erections

> *No more weekly acne

> *Moody

> *Tired easily

>

> November 19 lab tests:

> Testosterone

> 372ng/dl from range of 241-827

>

> December 12 lab tests:

> Testosterone

> 341 from range of 260-1000

>

> Free Testosterone

> 78.5pg/mgl from range of 50-210

>

> %Free

> 2.3% from range of 1.0-2.7

>

> TSH

> 1.3mIU/L from range of .5 - 4.7

>

> Prolactin

> 9.4ng/ml from range of 2.0-15.0

>

> LH

> 3.3 mIU/mL from range of .8-7.6

>

> FSH

> 1.7mIU/L from range of .7-11.1

>

> T4

> 7.1ug/dl from range of 4.5-14

>

> Lab Tests from December 22

> DHAS (same as DHEA-s)

> 430ug/dl from range of 260-580

>

> Estradiol

> <20pg/ml from range of <20 - 56

>

>

> Some of my scores are good (Estradiol) but others are terrible,

FSH

> and LH. As my DHEA-s is in the mid-range I am wondering a few

things:

> 1) whether I have always been low-normal T

> 2) whether my condition is a result of a pituitary problem

> 3) why if I have always been low normal T is it that I now feel

tired

> easily, have lost strenght and my libido and sex performance are

way

> down?

>

> According to the urologist, DHEA comes from the Adrenals so they

seem

> to be working good, but the scores clearly indicate my pituitary

> function is low. Does this really jive - a good adrenal gland but

a

> poor pituitary? What are the chances of that? I am trying to learn

as

> much about HPA as I can but understanding the feedback loop isn't

so

> straightforward.

>

> I have all the symptoms of a loss in T. I feel like the walking

dead,

> often.

>

> My plan, try one more Dr. (and endo). If he doesn't help, then I

will

> take Clomid for six weeks, using a 100mg/day dosage. The reason I

> would take Clomid is that, to my understanding, it kicks starts

the

> production of LH and when you get off Clomid you may have a higher

LH

> production value than when you started. As for HCG, I read that it

is

> a pure substitute and does not kick start your system, so when you

> stop your balls return to pre-treatment production levels.

However, I

> am far from expert on all of these issues.

>

> I would appreciate any advice on what you think might be happening

to

> me. I won't have insurance for much longer and I can basically do

> what I want with it right now.

>

> Any other tests I should take? Fertility?

>

> Best,

>

>

[Guest guest]

I doubt if a relatively small quantity of cortisone, administered

externally, would have such a large impact on your health. My oral

dose was much greater and in took a long time for it to impact on me.

Regardless of the cause of your health problems, you should seek

specialist medical advice.

From Australia

> In a message dated 12/25/2003 7:08:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> cbrcouple2002@y... writes:

>

> > What quantity of Cortisone are you taking and in what form?

> >

> > I was taking oral Cortisone (25mg / day tapering to zero) for

about

> > 18 months because of a serious lung condition. The end result is

I

> > now have Diabetes due to the Cortisone supressing my Glucose

> > production. It also supressed my Testosterone, which never fully

> > recovered.

> >

> > From Australia

> >

>

> I was taking 5 grams corticosteroid cream per day. I have beem

talking it on

> and off for 10 years. I was taking it for four weeks when the

bottom fell out.

> ?

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

A couple of comments. I have read all of the replies (or most) and

hope to draw some paralells here.

In my case, I too am athelitic. 6-1, 180 lbs, 9% BF, soccer player,

work out 4-5 time per week. I mention this because something you may

or may not know is that hypogonadism can be caused by exercise

(exercise induced hypogonadism). The concept is that in some

individuals their cortisol levels will spike very high right after a

workout or heavy athelitic activity. Cortisol (like Hydro cortizone)

will shut down you HPTA in a hurry. One of the tests I did not see

listed was for Cortisol. If you have not had it tested you should.

In my case, both this as well as use of cortizone shots (by my

orthopedic sugeon) have been indicated as a possible cause of my

hypogonadism. There is a study in the enrollment phase right now at

Mass. General hospital that will actually track and treat young,

healthy individuals with suspected exercise induced hypogonadism. If

you are interested IM me off-line and I will send you the information.

Regarding a healthy Adrenal and mis-functioning pituitary, that's

something that can absolutely happen. My DHEA consistently sits at

the top of the lab range and my DHEA-S (which a motabolite of DHEA)

sits anywhere from 40% - 90% ABOVE the high end of the lab range.

Both, sans adrenal cancer, are very positive things. But also know

this, DHEA/DHEA-S aromatizes just like Testosterone into an

Estrogen. While T aromatizes into E2 (Estradiol), DHEA/DHEA-S

aromatizes into E1 (Estrone). Estrone, while not as biologically

active, will still provide negative feedback to the

hypothalimus/pituitary. While your E2 may be fine (due to your

current low T), your E1 may be high. I am presently taking Femera

(anti estrogen - aromatase inhibitor) to control these two with the

goal to be as close to a 40::1 ratio of T to E2.

On the Clomid front, I have significant experience with that. My

Endo had me on it for 4 weeks, 50 mg EOD, and my T sat fairly

decently at 500 or so with E2 around 50. When combined with femera,

the same dosage (with a different doctor) boosted my T to 650 with my

resultant E2 at 19.2 pg per ml and Free T at 184 pg/ml (range 34 -

194). The theory being, the less T that get converted to E2, the

more I will have. In terms of dosing, I would avoid 100 mg each

day. That is very high and you may find visual disturbances at that

level. 100 mg for the first few days I would imagine is OK. The

other issue is that while you certainly can take Clomid on an

extended basis it may do a few adverse things you would want to

avoid. The first is that extended clomid use can desensitize the

hypothalimus. While there are drugs that help correct this, I would

wish to avoid it completely. The second, and perhaps more serious,

is that clomid is a bit harsh on your liver and can cause liver

toxicity after extended use. While taking Clomid over the last 6+

months I have consistently monitored my AST and ALT (liver enzymes)

and have had issues that I have worked to control (using Liv52 and

Milk Thistle).

I finally decided to forgo the Clomid for a while and give a

compounded T-Gel a try. I am finished having children so, in my mind

this is a logical step. So far, I am quite pleased. My goal is to

acheive and maintain that 40::1 ratio that is evident in an 18 year

old. Being as competitive in sports as I am, my alterior motives

extend beyond the bedroom and onto the soccer pitch.

If you stilll wish to father children then by all means look to

Clomid and hCG as very viable options. Monitor your liver enzymes

though.

As I mentioned earlier, IM me or post back and I will help if I can.

Good luck,

y

> Hoping some people in the forum may be able to help.

>

> ABOUT ME

> Age: 29

> Height: 68.5 "

> Weight: 170

> Atheleticism: NCAA D1 calibre

> Sexuality: was very high

> Muscle strength: was decent. Was just getting into working out (1

yr)

> so not spectacular but found pleasing gains.

> Bone density: much higher than normal as measured by DEXA scan this

> week

> Testicle size: have shrunk from both 25 to one 15-20 and one 20-25.

> Don't know when this started.

>

> Steroid or prohormone use: none

> Corticosteroid use: for eczema beginning Sept. 12

>

> SYMPTOMS

> Begining Sept 15 and reaching fever pitch by December 1:

> *sex drive down by factor of five (est.)

> *sex frequency down by factor of three

> *30% loss of muscle strenght

> *Sleep pattern disorder

> *Appetite loss

> *No morning or spontaneous erections

> *No more weekly acne

> *Moody

> *Tired easily

>

> November 19 lab tests:

> Testosterone

> 372ng/dl from range of 241-827

>

> December 12 lab tests:

> Testosterone

> 341 from range of 260-1000

>

> Free Testosterone

> 78.5pg/mgl from range of 50-210

>

> %Free

> 2.3% from range of 1.0-2.7

>

> TSH

> 1.3mIU/L from range of .5 - 4.7

>

> Prolactin

> 9.4ng/ml from range of 2.0-15.0

>

> LH

> 3.3 mIU/mL from range of .8-7.6

>

> FSH

> 1.7mIU/L from range of .7-11.1

>

> T4

> 7.1ug/dl from range of 4.5-14

>

> Lab Tests from December 22

> DHAS (same as DHEA-s)

> 430ug/dl from range of 260-580

>

> Estradiol

> <20pg/ml from range of <20 - 56

>

>

> Some of my scores are good (Estradiol) but others are terrible, FSH

> and LH. As my DHEA-s is in the mid-range I am wondering a few

things:

> 1) whether I have always been low-normal T

> 2) whether my condition is a result of a pituitary problem

> 3) why if I have always been low normal T is it that I now feel

tired

> easily, have lost strenght and my libido and sex performance are

way

> down?

>

> According to the urologist, DHEA comes from the Adrenals so they

seem

> to be working good, but the scores clearly indicate my pituitary

> function is low. Does this really jive - a good adrenal gland but a

> poor pituitary? What are the chances of that? I am trying to learn

as

> much about HPA as I can but understanding the feedback loop isn't

so

> straightforward.

>

> I have all the symptoms of a loss in T. I feel like the walking

dead,

> often.

>

> My plan, try one more Dr. (and endo). If he doesn't help, then I

will

> take Clomid for six weeks, using a 100mg/day dosage. The reason I

> would take Clomid is that, to my understanding, it kicks starts the

> production of LH and when you get off Clomid you may have a higher

LH

> production value than when you started. As for HCG, I read that it

is

> a pure substitute and does not kick start your system, so when you

> stop your balls return to pre-treatment production levels. However,

I

> am far from expert on all of these issues.

>

> I would appreciate any advice on what you think might be happening

to

> me. I won't have insurance for much longer and I can basically do

> what I want with it right now.

>

> Any other tests I should take? Fertility?

>

> Best,

>

>

[Guest guest]

y,

Did the clomid therapy make you " feel " better? I am interesting in

reducing my symptoms (fatigue, low libidio, mild depression,

lethargy, etc.). I am borderline low T, 34 years old, etc. etc.

Thanks

> > Hoping some people in the forum may be able to help.

> >

> > ABOUT ME

> > Age: 29

> > Height: 68.5 "

> > Weight: 170

> > Atheleticism: NCAA D1 calibre

> > Sexuality: was very high

> > Muscle strength: was decent. Was just getting into working out (1

> yr)

> > so not spectacular but found pleasing gains.

> > Bone density: much higher than normal as measured by DEXA scan

this

> > week

> > Testicle size: have shrunk from both 25 to one 15-20 and one 20-

25.

> > Don't know when this started.

> >

> > Steroid or prohormone use: none

> > Corticosteroid use: for eczema beginning Sept. 12

> >

> > SYMPTOMS

> > Begining Sept 15 and reaching fever pitch by December 1:

> > *sex drive down by factor of five (est.)

> > *sex frequency down by factor of three

> > *30% loss of muscle strenght

> > *Sleep pattern disorder

> > *Appetite loss

> > *No morning or spontaneous erections

> > *No more weekly acne

> > *Moody

> > *Tired easily

> >

> > November 19 lab tests:

> > Testosterone

> > 372ng/dl from range of 241-827

> >

> > December 12 lab tests:

> > Testosterone

> > 341 from range of 260-1000

> >

> > Free Testosterone

> > 78.5pg/mgl from range of 50-210

> >

> > %Free

> > 2.3% from range of 1.0-2.7

> >

> > TSH

> > 1.3mIU/L from range of .5 - 4.7

> >

> > Prolactin

> > 9.4ng/ml from range of 2.0-15.0

> >

> > LH

> > 3.3 mIU/mL from range of .8-7.6

> >

> > FSH

> > 1.7mIU/L from range of .7-11.1

> >

> > T4

> > 7.1ug/dl from range of 4.5-14

> >

> > Lab Tests from December 22

> > DHAS (same as DHEA-s)

> > 430ug/dl from range of 260-580

> >

> > Estradiol

> > <20pg/ml from range of <20 - 56

> >

> >

> > Some of my scores are good (Estradiol) but others are terrible,

FSH

> > and LH. As my DHEA-s is in the mid-range I am wondering a few

> things:

> > 1) whether I have always been low-normal T

> > 2) whether my condition is a result of a pituitary problem

> > 3) why if I have always been low normal T is it that I now feel

> tired

> > easily, have lost strenght and my libido and sex performance are

> way

> > down?

> >

> > According to the urologist, DHEA comes from the Adrenals so they

> seem

> > to be working good, but the scores clearly indicate my pituitary

> > function is low. Does this really jive - a good adrenal gland but

a

> > poor pituitary? What are the chances of that? I am trying to

learn

> as

> > much about HPA as I can but understanding the feedback loop isn't

> so

> > straightforward.

> >

> > I have all the symptoms of a loss in T. I feel like the walking

> dead,

> > often.

> >

> > My plan, try one more Dr. (and endo). If he doesn't help, then I

> will

> > take Clomid for six weeks, using a 100mg/day dosage. The reason I

> > would take Clomid is that, to my understanding, it kicks starts

the

> > production of LH and when you get off Clomid you may have a

higher

> LH

> > production value than when you started. As for HCG, I read that

it

> is

> > a pure substitute and does not kick start your system, so when

you

> > stop your balls return to pre-treatment production levels.

However,

> I

> > am far from expert on all of these issues.

> >

> > I would appreciate any advice on what you think might be

happening

> to

> > me. I won't have insurance for much longer and I can basically do

> > what I want with it right now.

> >

> > Any other tests I should take? Fertility?

> >

> > Best,

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Without question. In all honesty, borderline cases, in my opinion,

would be best suited to this type of therapy. Check with your doctor

but outside of the issues I raised below, it really worked well for

me. I can't complain about the numbers and my symptoms, almost

completely, are absent when my T is boosted and my E2/E1 is

controlled. I am eager to see how the compounded T-Gel works for

me. Initial indications (first week) are very positive.

> > > Hoping some people in the forum may be able to help.

> > >

> > > ABOUT ME

> > > Age: 29

> > > Height: 68.5 "

> > > Weight: 170

> > > Atheleticism: NCAA D1 calibre

> > > Sexuality: was very high

> > > Muscle strength: was decent. Was just getting into working out

(1

> > yr)

> > > so not spectacular but found pleasing gains.

> > > Bone density: much higher than normal as measured by DEXA scan

> this

> > > week

> > > Testicle size: have shrunk from both 25 to one 15-20 and one 20-

> 25.

> > > Don't know when this started.

> > >

> > > Steroid or prohormone use: none

> > > Corticosteroid use: for eczema beginning Sept. 12

> > >

> > > SYMPTOMS

> > > Begining Sept 15 and reaching fever pitch by December 1:

> > > *sex drive down by factor of five (est.)

> > > *sex frequency down by factor of three

> > > *30% loss of muscle strenght

> > > *Sleep pattern disorder

> > > *Appetite loss

> > > *No morning or spontaneous erections

> > > *No more weekly acne

> > > *Moody

> > > *Tired easily

> > >

> > > November 19 lab tests:

> > > Testosterone

> > > 372ng/dl from range of 241-827

> > >

> > > December 12 lab tests:

> > > Testosterone

> > > 341 from range of 260-1000

> > >

> > > Free Testosterone

> > > 78.5pg/mgl from range of 50-210

> > >

> > > %Free

> > > 2.3% from range of 1.0-2.7

> > >

> > > TSH

> > > 1.3mIU/L from range of .5 - 4.7

> > >

> > > Prolactin

> > > 9.4ng/ml from range of 2.0-15.0

> > >

> > > LH

> > > 3.3 mIU/mL from range of .8-7.6

> > >

> > > FSH

> > > 1.7mIU/L from range of .7-11.1

> > >

> > > T4

> > > 7.1ug/dl from range of 4.5-14

> > >

> > > Lab Tests from December 22

> > > DHAS (same as DHEA-s)

> > > 430ug/dl from range of 260-580

> > >

> > > Estradiol

> > > <20pg/ml from range of <20 - 56

> > >

> > >

> > > Some of my scores are good (Estradiol) but others are terrible,

> FSH

> > > and LH. As my DHEA-s is in the mid-range I am wondering a few

> > things:

> > > 1) whether I have always been low-normal T

> > > 2) whether my condition is a result of a pituitary problem

> > > 3) why if I have always been low normal T is it that I now feel

> > tired

> > > easily, have lost strenght and my libido and sex performance

are

> > way

> > > down?

> > >

> > > According to the urologist, DHEA comes from the Adrenals so

they

> > seem

> > > to be working good, but the scores clearly indicate my

pituitary

> > > function is low. Does this really jive - a good adrenal gland

but

> a

> > > poor pituitary? What are the chances of that? I am trying to

> learn

> > as

> > > much about HPA as I can but understanding the feedback loop

isn't

> > so

> > > straightforward.

> > >

> > > I have all the symptoms of a loss in T. I feel like the walking

> > dead,

> > > often.

> > >

> > > My plan, try one more Dr. (and endo). If he doesn't help, then

I

> > will

> > > take Clomid for six weeks, using a 100mg/day dosage. The reason

I

> > > would take Clomid is that, to my understanding, it kicks starts

> the

> > > production of LH and when you get off Clomid you may have a

> higher

> > LH

> > > production value than when you started. As for HCG, I read that

> it

> > is

> > > a pure substitute and does not kick start your system, so when

> you

> > > stop your balls return to pre-treatment production levels.

> However,

> > I

> > > am far from expert on all of these issues.

> > >

> > > I would appreciate any advice on what you think might be

> happening

> > to

> > > me. I won't have insurance for much longer and I can basically

do

> > > what I want with it right now.

> > >

> > > Any other tests I should take? Fertility?

> > >

> > > Best,

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

y,

Thanks for your informative posts. I have not heard that Clomid

causes a problem with the liver and as far as I know, studies

indicate that it is perfectly safe to consume for at least a year (I

don't think that they have done studies that are longer than that).

Good luck with the gel. I am very curious how you will feel about it

in the long term. The first month is traditionally the best month

for allot of men. Some men like it in the long term, like Oreon,

others find it is not quite a 100% solution. Personally, I dislike

having to make sure I don't get wet after I put it on, worry about

whether it is absorbing properly that day etc. But it does have it's

advantages, such as being less likely to aromatise to estradiol than

the injectable testosterone. My only goal is to feel 100% and have

as much energy as possible. I still have a ton of stuff to

accomplish with my life, including sports. It sounds like you have a

similar goal with treatment. Please keep posting on your personal

experiences so that we can all keep learning together, and I will do

the same.

Also, if you notice in a couple of months that you are not feeling

all that great. I would suggest adding HCG to the mix. This will get

your natural production happening again, grow your testicles (if

they end up shrinking with the TRT), and add to the gel. The femera

should keep the estradiol in check and this is an effective

combination.

Cheers,

Armyguy

> > Hoping some people in the forum may be able to help.

> >

> > ABOUT ME

> > Age: 29

> > Height: 68.5 "

> > Weight: 170

> > Atheleticism: NCAA D1 calibre

> > Sexuality: was very high

> > Muscle strength: was decent. Was just getting into working out

(1

> yr)

> > so not spectacular but found pleasing gains.

> > Bone density: much higher than normal as measured by DEXA scan

this

> > week

> > Testicle size: have shrunk from both 25 to one 15-20 and one 20-

25.

> > Don't know when this started.

> >

> > Steroid or prohormone use: none

> > Corticosteroid use: for eczema beginning Sept. 12

> >

> > SYMPTOMS

> > Begining Sept 15 and reaching fever pitch by December 1:

> > *sex drive down by factor of five (est.)

> > *sex frequency down by factor of three

> > *30% loss of muscle strenght

> > *Sleep pattern disorder

> > *Appetite loss

> > *No morning or spontaneous erections

> > *No more weekly acne

> > *Moody

> > *Tired easily

> >

> > November 19 lab tests:

> > Testosterone

> > 372ng/dl from range of 241-827

> >

> > December 12 lab tests:

> > Testosterone

> > 341 from range of 260-1000

> >

> > Free Testosterone

> > 78.5pg/mgl from range of 50-210

> >

> > %Free

> > 2.3% from range of 1.0-2.7

> >

> > TSH

> > 1.3mIU/L from range of .5 - 4.7

> >

> > Prolactin

> > 9.4ng/ml from range of 2.0-15.0

> >

> > LH

> > 3.3 mIU/mL from range of .8-7.6

> >

> > FSH

> > 1.7mIU/L from range of .7-11.1

> >

> > T4

> > 7.1ug/dl from range of 4.5-14

> >

> > Lab Tests from December 22

> > DHAS (same as DHEA-s)

> > 430ug/dl from range of 260-580

> >

> > Estradiol

> > <20pg/ml from range of <20 - 56

> >

> >

> > Some of my scores are good (Estradiol) but others are terrible,

FSH

> > and LH. As my DHEA-s is in the mid-range I am wondering a few

> things:

> > 1) whether I have always been low-normal T

> > 2) whether my condition is a result of a pituitary problem

> > 3) why if I have always been low normal T is it that I now feel

> tired

> > easily, have lost strenght and my libido and sex performance are

> way

> > down?

> >

> > According to the urologist, DHEA comes from the Adrenals so they

> seem

> > to be working good, but the scores clearly indicate my pituitary

> > function is low. Does this really jive - a good adrenal gland

but a

> > poor pituitary? What are the chances of that? I am trying to

learn

> as

> > much about HPA as I can but understanding the feedback loop

isn't

> so

> > straightforward.

> >

> > I have all the symptoms of a loss in T. I feel like the walking

> dead,

> > often.

> >

> > My plan, try one more Dr. (and endo). If he doesn't help, then I

> will

> > take Clomid for six weeks, using a 100mg/day dosage. The reason

I

> > would take Clomid is that, to my understanding, it kicks starts

the

> > production of LH and when you get off Clomid you may have a

higher

> LH

> > production value than when you started. As for HCG, I read that

it

> is

> > a pure substitute and does not kick start your system, so when

you

> > stop your balls return to pre-treatment production levels.

However,

> I

> > am far from expert on all of these issues.

> >

> > I would appreciate any advice on what you think might be

happening

> to

> > me. I won't have insurance for much longer and I can basically

do

> > what I want with it right now.

> >

> > Any other tests I should take? Fertility?

> >

> > Best,

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Yes. Thanks. My doc is planning on hCG treatments periodically as

it is to maintain testecular volume etc.. Will certainly keep it in

mind if I start feeling low.

y

> > > Hoping some people in the forum may be able to help.

> > >

> > > ABOUT ME

> > > Age: 29

> > > Height: 68.5 "

> > > Weight: 170

> > > Atheleticism: NCAA D1 calibre

> > > Sexuality: was very high

> > > Muscle strength: was decent. Was just getting into working out

> (1

> > yr)

> > > so not spectacular but found pleasing gains.

> > > Bone density: much higher than normal as measured by DEXA scan

> this

> > > week

> > > Testicle size: have shrunk from both 25 to one 15-20 and one

20-

> 25.

> > > Don't know when this started.

> > >

> > > Steroid or prohormone use: none

> > > Corticosteroid use: for eczema beginning Sept. 12

> > >

> > > SYMPTOMS

> > > Begining Sept 15 and reaching fever pitch by December 1:

> > > *sex drive down by factor of five (est.)

> > > *sex frequency down by factor of three

> > > *30% loss of muscle strenght

> > > *Sleep pattern disorder

> > > *Appetite loss

> > > *No morning or spontaneous erections

> > > *No more weekly acne

> > > *Moody

> > > *Tired easily

> > >

> > > November 19 lab tests:

> > > Testosterone

> > > 372ng/dl from range of 241-827

> > >

> > > December 12 lab tests:

> > > Testosterone

> > > 341 from range of 260-1000

> > >

> > > Free Testosterone

> > > 78.5pg/mgl from range of 50-210

> > >

> > > %Free

> > > 2.3% from range of 1.0-2.7

> > >

> > > TSH

> > > 1.3mIU/L from range of .5 - 4.7

> > >

> > > Prolactin

> > > 9.4ng/ml from range of 2.0-15.0

> > >

> > > LH

> > > 3.3 mIU/mL from range of .8-7.6

> > >

> > > FSH

> > > 1.7mIU/L from range of .7-11.1

> > >

> > > T4

> > > 7.1ug/dl from range of 4.5-14

> > >

> > > Lab Tests from December 22

> > > DHAS (same as DHEA-s)

> > > 430ug/dl from range of 260-580

> > >

> > > Estradiol

> > > <20pg/ml from range of <20 - 56

> > >

> > >

> > > Some of my scores are good (Estradiol) but others are

terrible,

> FSH

> > > and LH. As my DHEA-s is in the mid-range I am wondering a few

> > things:

> > > 1) whether I have always been low-normal T

> > > 2) whether my condition is a result of a pituitary problem

> > > 3) why if I have always been low normal T is it that I now

feel

> > tired

> > > easily, have lost strenght and my libido and sex performance

are

> > way

> > > down?

> > >

> > > According to the urologist, DHEA comes from the Adrenals so

they

> > seem

> > > to be working good, but the scores clearly indicate my

pituitary

> > > function is low. Does this really jive - a good adrenal gland

> but a

> > > poor pituitary? What are the chances of that? I am trying to

> learn

> > as

> > > much about HPA as I can but understanding the feedback loop

> isn't

> > so

> > > straightforward.

> > >

> > > I have all the symptoms of a loss in T. I feel like the

walking

> > dead,

> > > often.

> > >

> > > My plan, try one more Dr. (and endo). If he doesn't help, then

I

> > will

> > > take Clomid for six weeks, using a 100mg/day dosage. The

reason

> I

> > > would take Clomid is that, to my understanding, it kicks

starts

> the

> > > production of LH and when you get off Clomid you may have a

> higher

> > LH

> > > production value than when you started. As for HCG, I read

that

> it

> > is

> > > a pure substitute and does not kick start your system, so when

> you

> > > stop your balls return to pre-treatment production levels.

> However,

> > I

> > > am far from expert on all of these issues.

> > >

> > > I would appreciate any advice on what you think might be

> happening

> > to

> > > me. I won't have insurance for much longer and I can basically

> do

> > > what I want with it right now.

> > >

> > > Any other tests I should take? Fertility?

> > >

> > > Best,

> > >

> > >