Re: injections, how much increase in levels?

August 6, 2004

I have been on injections for about 4 months now. It has taken this much time to

get the dosage and timing right. At first i was on 200ml every 2 weeks. This was

great for the first week and sucked for the second. I was then on 300ml every

other week and had the high levels of over 1000 but still felt like crap the

second week. I then went to 150ml every week. I was feeling great, but the doc

did not like the super high levels at the first of the week(1400). So now I am

on 100ml a week and from my last test a few weeks ago it looks like I am very

close to being where I need to be (487, 260-870 taken just before next shot). I

was on patches and gels before this. Gel did not work for me and I needed 1 1/2

patches a day to get my levels right. This took months of trial and error to get

right.

What I am trying to get at is it takes time to figure out what you need in TRT

to put you to the right levels. I believe when first starting TRT that you are

telling your body to quit producing T. Your body does not shut down making T

overnight but could take some time to totally shut down. In this time your

levels might jump up and down.The balance of getting your hormones right is the

goal we are after. I don't really think you get a build-up of T but getting the

dose and timing of the dose is the critical problem to figure out in this

delema. Then there are all the other factors of not absorbing (patch and gels),

getting the correct amount of T, not getting enough, or too much and have it

convert to Estrogen, and timing of the dose(daily,weekly, bi-weekly), and then

everyone is different too. If your body is still trying to produce T it just

adds to this picture. Patients is hard to have when you feel like crap all the

time, I know, but you must know this is not a quick fix too.

This is my my school of thought and hope it kind of answered your questions.

dlf992@... wrote:

This seems to be a matter for dispute, and would someone

like to comment on levels after testosterone injections?

Why don't you put down the numbers you would guess after

each level?

Example, male with level of 100 (on total testosterone scale

of 260-1000), who is given a 200mg testosterone injection

each week.

What will his level be at the end of the first week? the

second week? and third week?

I hear two schools of thought, #1 that the testosterone

does not " build up " , but that from the very first injection

a the patients level should go up to about 400 at least.

The #2 school of thought says that the levels may only

go up about 50 each week, and that it will be many weeks

before a level of 400 is achieved.

What do you think? (but please try to answer the questions too).

August 7, 2004

100mg of testosterone cypionate gives about 68 mg of actual testosterone for the

body to

use. A few mg will be lost in the syringe and maybe some will leak out of the

injection site.

A young male can produce 7-12 mg of testosterone a day, so from 49-84 mg a week.

But

the injection happens all at once and peaks in 48 to 72 hours and falls off fast

from there.

100mg should put most men in the normal range to high normal range for a few

days.

150mg should put most men into the high normal range.

Both schools of thought are correct in that a shot will drive the blood levels

up in most

men, and also over time the ups and downs will level out for men with

hypogonadism

starting out on injections, this can take months to years.

>

> This seems to be a matter for dispute, and would someone

> like to comment on levels after testosterone injections?

> Why don't you put down the numbers you would guess after

> each level?

>

> Example, male with level of 100 (on total testosterone scale

> of 260-1000), who is given a 200mg testosterone injection

> each week.

>

> What will his level be at the end of the first week? the

> second week? and third week?

>

> I hear two schools of thought, #1 that the testosterone

> does not " build up " , but that from the very first injection

> a the patients level should go up to about 400 at least.

> The #2 school of thought says that the levels may only

> go up about 50 each week, and that it will be many weeks

> before a level of 400 is achieved.

>

> What do you think? (but please try to answer the questions too).

August 7, 2004

dlf,

I can't predict. Doc asks me what I think my levels are before giving me the

numbers, and I'm usually off. I think it takes a period of trials to see what

dosage provides what levels, and probably varies from person to person.

Once I finally got my levels up, they were over range & I cut dosage a little. I

changed from 200mg T-cyp every seven days to every 10 days. T went from

835 to 735 (241-827). Free T went from 29.0 to 25.6 (7.2-24.0)

I think T levels aren't an accurate predictors by themselves. Other levels like

free T & E2 can vary, so health improvements may be delayed until all levels

fall in line.

Best,

Bruce

>

> This seems to be a matter for dispute, and would someone

> like to comment on levels after testosterone injections?

> Why don't you put down the numbers you would guess after

> each level?

>

> Example, male with level of 100 (on total testosterone scale

> of 260-1000), who is given a 200mg testosterone injection

> each week.

>

> What will his level be at the end of the first week? the

> second week? and third week?

>

> I hear two schools of thought, #1 that the testosterone

> does not " build up " , but that from the very first injection

> a the patients level should go up to about 400 at least.

> The #2 school of thought says that the levels may only

> go up about 50 each week, and that it will be many weeks

> before a level of 400 is achieved.

>

> What do you think? (but please try to answer the questions too).

August 7, 2004

Hi,

The greedy pharmaceutical houses providing these products are

unethical IMHO.

If they have the skills they should have, they already know the

problems they are subjecting patients to that are trying to use their

hormone products. Patients HOPE keeps them struggling to get it right.

It is old information that the body can not tolerate spurts of hormone

easily and usually goes into some sort of reaction. Frequently the

body converts T to E as it senses too much T that obviously is not

what would be happening normally when only you testicles are producing

the T. It dosn't matter if the spurt in increased T comes thru the

skin or is injected, the body's regulatory system is shocked into action.

When you wish to add testosterone it is best that it is constant with

no rising or falling in amount per day or hour. There is only one

source of therapy that provides that within reasonable cost. Hormone

pellets. Every 4 months I get 20 pellets for about $450 or $1350/year.

I have never had any problems with my hormones getting upset.

My doctor says he gets atout 65% repeat patients on hormone pellets

and about 45% on the laternative forms of TRT. It is tough to provide

the patient a high enough amount for them to reach the high normal

range of 700-900 because of several factors such as poor absorption

and the canceling effects of the body's regulatory system.

Pharmceutical houses can not sell hormone pellets and want to make

money from hormones in the only ways they can. Their pharmaceutical

reps are the source of most of the new information coming to doctors

with no endcrinology training. Their information is aimed at more

profit for the companies not by providing proper treatment for the

patient, IMHO.

I'll put the soap box back under the desk. Time to let other views be

heard.

ernstnolan

>

> This seems to be a matter for dispute, and would someone

> like to comment on levels after testosterone injections?

> Why don't you put down the numbers you would guess after

> each level?

>

> Example, male with level of 100 (on total testosterone scale

> of 260-1000), who is given a 200mg testosterone injection

> each week.

>

> What will his level be at the end of the first week? the

> second week? and third week?

>

> I hear two schools of thought, #1 that the testosterone

> does not " build up " , but that from the very first injection

> a the patients level should go up to about 400 at least.

> The #2 school of thought says that the levels may only

> go up about 50 each week, and that it will be many weeks

> before a level of 400 is achieved.

>

> What do you think? (but please try to answer the questions too).

>

August 7, 2004

Hi very well put but doing the shots that you are I hope you are looking

at your E2 and if it is high do try to keep it down.

Phil

<huckfor1@...> wrote: