Re: Hypogonadism & Spirituality

[Guest guest]

Hi Dean,

On the testosterone topic, would a reduced dose help? Presently

you act & feel like you have too much, but when you stop you

suffer the expected symptoms of having too little. Seems like

there's a middle ground somewhere. Have you had your

hormone levels tested recently? It would be important to know

where they are before making changes.

Seems to me like you have a lot of self-esteem and identity

issues. You focus on perceived weaknesses and failures, you

overlook a lot of strengths and accomplishments. Lots of people

do. It could be that hypogonadism influenced development of

those traits, but that's irrelevent at this point: you're not going to

change them by adjusting testosterone replacement therapy.

That's my opinion, what's yours?

Do you think your spirituality and animality could be at war with

with each other? They have to work together or they'll tear you

apart.

We could go further into the spiritual aspects, but we're quickly

moving off the topic of this group. If you wish, you can contact me

off-board at bruceharvey@...

Bruce

> I could use some input from folks on the list that have strong

religious

> convictions like myself. My friends at church are sympathetic to

my situation

> but cannot really understand like some one with a testosterone

imbalance can.

>

>

> Here's the situation (kind of long and very personal):

>

> When I was diagnosed with Secondary Hypogonadism in the

mid 1970's, I had

> just graduated from Bible College and was expecting to enter

seminary. The

> religious emphasis of my education tended to obscure the

symptoms of my

> condition. In fact, in retrospect, it seems that many of the

students had physical

> and emotional needs that were not addressed in that context.

>

> I really could not relate to the other guys in the dorm when they

talked

> about " sexual temptations " and looked down on them. What

was the big deal? Why

> couldn't they control themselves? Secretly, deep inside, I

really envied

> them; their muscles, their facial hair, their girlfriends, their

baritone

> voices...and their sexual " temptations. " I was becoming what

some of us would

> term a religious " pharisee. "

>

> I graduated from Bible College in 1975 and like many others,

found that a

> degree in Biblical Studies didn't prepare anyone for a career. I

found a job

> as an airport limousine driver. That winter, I was sick with the

flu and

> went to a doctor down the street from my house. He took one

look at me and

> said, " Forget the flu, you have a much more serious

condition, you have

> hypogonadism. " I was stunned, especially because I had

been to a variety of

> doctors in the past, who pronounced me simply to be a " late

bloomer... " a VERY

> late bloomer at age 24.

>

> This, of course, began a cycle of referrals, specialists and

different

> treatment regimens including clomid, HCG injections,

" fertility " drugs, and

> finally plain old testosterone injections. No one that I talked to

about my

> condition had a clue what I was going through.

>

> After a few months of T-shots, the expected changes began to

take place.

> My voice changed, I began to have frequent erections and

started to shave. I

> thought about sex most of the time...and felt guilty about it

most of the

> time. While other guys my age were starting families and

careers...I wanted to

> go play basketball with teenage guys and talk about girls.

>

> I started seminary around age 28. After the first year, I was

told that I

> was " too immature " to pursue the Christian ministry and was

not allowed to

> return. I had just been married, kind of quickly and

thoughtlessly..and we

> were both devastated. My new wife, also very emotionally

immature and

> vulnerable, took the church's side in the issue, and our

marriage was a continual

> war after that. Still, we desired a ministry of some kind and

opened our home

> to the homeless. Over the years, we had 35 people live with

us until they

> were back on their feet and settled. The church, however,

never appreciated

> our little ministry, and eventually we were both forced out of

" fellowship "

> with the group due to our marital difficulties. My wife became

very

> embittered and blamed the situation entirely on me. About ten

years ago, the

> marriage finally fell apart, but it had been dead for a long time

before that. We

> lost most of our remaining religious friends when we filed for

divorce. The

> big old house that we had bought to house our homeless

friends fell apart as

> the months dragged by before the divorce was final and was

sold for a fraction

> of its value. In the end, there was nothing to show for fifteen

years of

> commitment and ministry but debts and hard feelings.

>

> My point is this: I feel that Testosterone was a factor in all of

the

> above. Would I have been better off without it? So what if I

had become just

> an odd religious geek? There would have been no marriage,

no sexual

> temptations, no problems with anger etc. It just seemed like

the " responsible "

> thing to do: receive treatment for my condition and get on with

my life. But was

> it the spiritual thing to do? Was it the right thing to have done?

>

> Today, at age 51, I look like a " normal " guy my age but still

feel like

> that teenager. I have remarried and my wife and I have several

ministry areas

> that we are involved in. But the T. shots still bring all kinds of

baggage

> with them. I am obsessed at times with sexual stuff and still

become angry at

> the drop of a hat. And this may sound strange to some, but it

bothers me a

> great deal that I can't bring myself to cry! In attempting to

correct the

> situation, I've tried T. gels and patches...they don't penetrate

my skin, so I

> am stuck with injections. I just don't know what to do.

>

> I was off of all T. therapy for about two months in the fall. As

expected,

> things went well spiritually...but I began to not feel well

physically and

> became very depressed, unmotivated and indecisive. I'm back

on T. shots

> again...with all of the same blessings and cursings as usual.

I realize that many

> guys don't consider anger and sexual compulsions to be

" problems, " but

> some of us do. At this stage in life, these are things that I

really don't need

> and things which our little ministries cannot afford.

>

> I will appreciate any comments that the more 'religious' on our

list can

> offer.

>

> Thanks

>

> Dean in Cincy

[Guest guest]

Dean,

It seems to me that you have encountered some people in your life who

claim to be religious but really have ignored the fundamental

teachings of Christianity, such as:

- let he who is without sin throw the first stone;

- worry about the plank in your own eye before the speck in your

neighbor's eye;

- judge not lest ye be judged.

They also like to forget that Jesus did not hang out with the people

who thought of themselves as righteous (the pharisees). He hung out

with the dregs of society in his day. So to me the people who have

said you are not religous enough are just like those pharisees. Your

experiences have helped you transcend that pharisee stage in your life

- they have not.

Also keep in mind that a huge part of Jesus' ministry was healing the

sick; he WANTS you to get treatment for your health problems.

As as far for having nothing to show for all that time and

committment, just think about all the people you helped get back on

your feet. To me you accomplished more than most ever do. As far as

the church not appreciating your ministry - this may be a bit crude,

but screw them. I'm sure God appreciated it. Why worry about the

opinions of people who weren't really following Christian teachings

anyway? Easier said than done, I know, but when you really think

about it it is true. Your little ministry was much more a part of the

Church (biblical definition here - part of the community of

" believers " or body of Christ or whatever you choose to call it) than

the church you speak of will ever be. You took the teachings of Jesus

and put them into effect in the lives of others, rather than just

talking about it.

Sounds like you've encountered a lot of uncompassionate (yet another

anti-Christian teachings trait) religious hypocrites that have really

hurt you psychologically. Combine that with the psychological effects

of hypogonadism and it being discovered so late (leading to the

maturity problems that you were accused of) and the fact that you've

done something positive with your life is pretty amazing. I would

strongly encourage you to see a mental health professional to help you

through this - there is no shame in that, it is a sign of strength and

maturity. Prove them wrong - show them that you are mature by getting

help for both the physical problems and the psychological damage.

Just look at it this way - being sick all that time and you still

managed to help a lot of people along the way. I can't think of

anyone more Christian than that.

As far as the sexual urges go, I doubt God is as worried about it as

you might think. Jesus understands, he was human. We all have them,

even the people that would judge you for having them. Perhaps them

more than most - that is probably why they are so judgemental of it.

Mark

> I could use some input from folks on the list that have strong

religious

> convictions like myself. My friends at church are sympathetic to my

situation

> but cannot really understand like some one with a testosterone

imbalance can.

>

>

> Here's the situation (kind of long and very personal):

>

> When I was diagnosed with Secondary Hypogonadism in the mid 1970's,

I had

> just graduated from Bible College and was expecting to enter

seminary. The

> religious emphasis of my education tended to obscure the symptoms of

my

> condition. In fact, in retrospect, it seems that many of the

students had physical

> and emotional needs that were not addressed in that context.

>

> I really could not relate to the other guys in the dorm when they

talked

> about " sexual temptations " and looked down on them. What was the

big deal? Why

> couldn't they control themselves? Secretly, deep inside, I really

envied

> them; their muscles, their facial hair, their girlfriends, their

baritone

> voices...and their sexual " temptations. " I was becoming what some

of us would

> term a religious " pharisee. "

>

> I graduated from Bible College in 1975 and like many others, found

that a

> degree in Biblical Studies didn't prepare anyone for a career. I

found a job

> as an airport limousine driver. That winter, I was sick with the

flu and

> went to a doctor down the street from my house. He took one look

at me and

> said, " Forget the flu, you have a much more serious condition,

you have

> hypogonadism. " I was stunned, especially because I had been to a

variety of

> doctors in the past, who pronounced me simply to be a " late

bloomer... " a VERY

> late bloomer at age 24.

>

> This, of course, began a cycle of referrals, specialists and different

> treatment regimens including clomid, HCG injections, " fertility "

drugs, and

> finally plain old testosterone injections. No one that I talked to

about my

> condition had a clue what I was going through.

>

> After a few months of T-shots, the expected changes began to take

place.

> My voice changed, I began to have frequent erections and started

to shave. I

> thought about sex most of the time...and felt guilty about it most

of the

> time. While other guys my age were starting families and

careers...I wanted to

> go play basketball with teenage guys and talk about girls.

>

> I started seminary around age 28. After the first year, I was

told that I

> was " too immature " to pursue the Christian ministry and was not

allowed to

> return. I had just been married, kind of quickly and

thoughtlessly..and we

> were both devastated. My new wife, also very emotionally immature

and

> vulnerable, took the church's side in the issue, and our marriage

was a continual

> war after that. Still, we desired a ministry of some kind and

opened our home

> to the homeless. Over the years, we had 35 people live with us

until they

> were back on their feet and settled. The church, however, never

appreciated

> our little ministry, and eventually we were both forced out of

" fellowship "

> with the group due to our marital difficulties. My wife became very

> embittered and blamed the situation entirely on me. About ten

years ago, the

> marriage finally fell apart, but it had been dead for a long time

before that. We

> lost most of our remaining religious friends when we filed for

divorce. The

> big old house that we had bought to house our homeless friends fell

apart as

> the months dragged by before the divorce was final and was sold for

a fraction

> of its value. In the end, there was nothing to show for fifteen

years of

> commitment and ministry but debts and hard feelings.

>

> My point is this: I feel that Testosterone was a factor in all of the

> above. Would I have been better off without it? So what if I

had become just

> an odd religious geek? There would have been no marriage, no sexual

> temptations, no problems with anger etc. It just seemed like the

" responsible "

> thing to do: receive treatment for my condition and get on with my

life. But was

> it the spiritual thing to do? Was it the right thing to have done?

>

> Today, at age 51, I look like a " normal " guy my age but still

feel like

> that teenager. I have remarried and my wife and I have several

ministry areas

> that we are involved in. But the T. shots still bring all kinds of

baggage

> with them. I am obsessed at times with sexual stuff and still

become angry at

> the drop of a hat. And this may sound strange to some, but it

bothers me a

> great deal that I can't bring myself to cry! In attempting to

correct the

> situation, I've tried T. gels and patches...they don't penetrate my

skin, so I

> am stuck with injections. I just don't know what to do.

>

> I was off of all T. therapy for about two months in the fall. As

expected,

> things went well spiritually...but I began to not feel well

physically and

> became very depressed, unmotivated and indecisive. I'm back on T.

shots

> again...with all of the same blessings and cursings as usual. I

realize that many

> guys don't consider anger and sexual compulsions to be " problems, "

but

> some of us do. At this stage in life, these are things that I

really don't need

> and things which our little ministries cannot afford.

>

> I will appreciate any comments that the more 'religious' on our

list can

> offer.

>

> Thanks

>

> Dean in Cincy

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

What do you mean by Spirituality? Do you think that there is somehow a change

based on

testosterone levels? Kinda hard to change that which is unchanged.

If you are talking about spirituality in the terms of deeds that one does for

others, then it

sems that you are indeed spiritual, maybe more with the testosterone.

It is important to understand morals and actual harmful behavior. Don't let the

morals of

any religious group stop you from experience. Don't let yourself fall into the

moral guilt

trip. Don't regret the past, waste of time. Could of, should of, would of.

How much testosterone are you taking and on what schedule? Any other drugs? What

are

your blood test results with ranges?

[Guest guest]

>

> Dean:

>

> My wife and I often have conversations on the subject of the

church

> and the things we have been taught/made/expected to do versus what

> the Bible teaches us to do. Granted, many of the practices

> implimented in most churches are designed to produce disciplined

> lives of those who desire to live a life pleasing unto God, but

that

> is not always what is produced. Yours is such a case where you

need

> the Christians around you (the Chruch) to be understanding and

> compassionate regarding this condition. Unfortunately, many forget

> that we are simply earthen vessels which are subject to many

flaws,

> physical, emotional, spiritual, etc.

>

> My wife didn't understand at first because my doctor was dealing

with

> the various symptoms separately. I understand this now - it just

> looked like one more thing to go to the doctor about. But when i

was

> diagnosed with a Pituitary tumor (which had probably been there

for

> years from what we could tell), it made sense. She tried to

support

> me but that doesn't always mean understanding. The tumor diagnosis

> gave both of us some understanding. I was suffering from low T all

> this time. Now on TRT, she is looking and hopeful. I've seen some

> improvement. As a spiritual person, she and I have decided that

not

> everyone who calls themselves a Christian can deal with the things

we

> go through (the challenge of faith vs-medicine,etc.) We believe

that

> sometimes God's answer is medicine and He uses doctors to help us,

> not hurt us. We are still responsible to have and exercise our

faith.

>

> As a pastor myself here in Cincy, I can tell you I have seen many

> misquotings and applaications of what the Bible says when dealing

> with people and sickness/illness/disiease. I know my experiences

have

> made me a better minister of Christ, and hopefully you and I can

> continue to show those we encounter that Christ cares, is

concerned

> and continues to love them despite their condition. You be blessed

-------------------------------------------------

Pastor, it will have to be you and not I who shows those we

encounter that Christ cares, because I am a strong and dedicated

atheist. However, I am taking your post in the spirit of human

caring and medical evolution dealing with human suffering of all

kinds to be a positive and hopefull message.

Thanks for your kind words, and Season's Greetings!

norton

[Guest guest]

Hi Dean,

I am religious, so perhaps I can say something that may be helpfull.

The first thing I would suggest you do is check the levels of your

various hormones to make sure that they are not too high. The object

of TRT is to have your hormones at levels that are " normal " and

balanced. Having your levels too high or too low are both

undesireable. If too low, you experience lack of libido, decisiveness

and required aggression/motivation to do things. If too high, perhaps

excessive libido and too much aggression. Also, what is normal for

somone else, may not " feel " right to you. Besides blood levels, one

must also take into consideration how one feels and adjust dosages

accordingly. In other words treat the patient and not the lab numbers.

Having a healthy and normal libido, is not wrong. Of course, an out

of control or abnormal libido would cause us to have problems

functioning normally. If men did not have libido's, the world would

not go round. Nobody would be motivated to pursue a mate, to

procreate and to provide. You said " I thought about sex most of the

time...and felt guilty about it most of the time " . Since you are

married, why would you feel guilty. I am of the opinion that someone

of strong religious convictions, should marry early in life,

especially when his hormones are raging. I think 1Cor 7.1-9 sums this

up.

You said that if you had not taken T at all then " There would have

been no marriage, no sexual temptations, no problems with anger

etc. " . If you were married, then having sexual desires for your wife

is not a problem. You said " But was

it the spiritual thing to do? Was it the right thing to have

done? " . Yes, it was the right thing to do because your body was not

functioning properly and needed treatment. Hopefully, the treatment

was done properly. It is not easy to find knowledgeable doctors who

know how to treat hypogonadism properly.

You said " I am obsessed at times with sexual stuff and still become

angry at the drop of a hat. " . This sounds like your hormone levels

are a problem and need to be tuned down to what is " right for you " .

You said " And this may sound strange to some, but it bothers me a

great deal that I can't bring myself to cry! " , again hormone levels

may be the issue. You said, " I realize that many guys don't consider

anger and sexual compulsions to be " problems, " . Most guys who have

NORMAL hormone levels, healthy libido and other character traits that

go with normal hormone levels, do not suffer from sexual obsession or

abnormal outbursts of anger. Of course there is a point where self

control can be excercised, but if one's hormone levels are abnormal,

then this is like being drugged, and beyond self control issues.

Do you have any lab results for your hormones that you can post

together with ranges? What is your treatment regimen? What is your

doctors level of knowledge in this area?

I hope this helps in some way.

Regards,

> I could use some input from folks on the list that have strong

religious

> convictions like myself. My friends at church are sympathetic to

my situation

> but cannot really understand like some one with a testosterone

imbalance can.

>

>

> Here's the situation (kind of long and very personal):

>

> When I was diagnosed with Secondary Hypogonadism in the mid

1970's, I had

> just graduated from Bible College and was expecting to enter

seminary. The

> religious emphasis of my education tended to obscure the symptoms

of my

> condition. In fact, in retrospect, it seems that many of the

students had physical

> and emotional needs that were not addressed in that context.

>

> I really could not relate to the other guys in the dorm when they

talked

> about " sexual temptations " and looked down on them. What was the

big deal? Why

> couldn't they control themselves? Secretly, deep inside, I

really envied

> them; their muscles, their facial hair, their girlfriends, their

baritone

> voices...and their sexual " temptations. " I was becoming what some

of us would

> term a religious " pharisee. "

>

> I graduated from Bible College in 1975 and like many others,

found that a

> degree in Biblical Studies didn't prepare anyone for a career. I

found a job

> as an airport limousine driver. That winter, I was sick with the

flu and

> went to a doctor down the street from my house. He took one look

at me and

> said, " Forget the flu, you have a much more serious condition,

you have

> hypogonadism. " I was stunned, especially because I had been to

a variety of

> doctors in the past, who pronounced me simply to be a " late

bloomer... " a VERY

> late bloomer at age 24.

>

> This, of course, began a cycle of referrals, specialists and

different

> treatment regimens including clomid, HCG injections, " fertility "

drugs, and

> finally plain old testosterone injections. No one that I talked

to about my

> condition had a clue what I was going through.

>

> After a few months of T-shots, the expected changes began to take

place.

> My voice changed, I began to have frequent erections and started

to shave. I

> thought about sex most of the time...and felt guilty about it most

of the

> time. While other guys my age were starting families and

careers...I wanted to

> go play basketball with teenage guys and talk about girls.

>

> I started seminary around age 28. After the first year, I was

told that I

> was " too immature " to pursue the Christian ministry and was not

allowed to

> return. I had just been married, kind of quickly and

thoughtlessly..and we

> were both devastated. My new wife, also very emotionally

immature and

> vulnerable, took the church's side in the issue, and our marriage

was a continual

> war after that. Still, we desired a ministry of some kind and

opened our home

> to the homeless. Over the years, we had 35 people live with us

until they

> were back on their feet and settled. The church, however, never

appreciated

> our little ministry, and eventually we were both forced out

of " fellowship "

> with the group due to our marital difficulties. My wife became

very

> embittered and blamed the situation entirely on me. About ten

years ago, the

> marriage finally fell apart, but it had been dead for a long time

before that. We

> lost most of our remaining religious friends when we filed for

divorce. The

> big old house that we had bought to house our homeless friends

fell apart as

> the months dragged by before the divorce was final and was sold

for a fraction

> of its value. In the end, there was nothing to show for fifteen

years of

> commitment and ministry but debts and hard feelings.

>

> My point is this: I feel that Testosterone was a factor in all of

the

> above. Would I have been better off without it? So what if I

had become just

> an odd religious geek? There would have been no marriage, no

sexual

> temptations, no problems with anger etc. It just seemed like

the " responsible "

> thing to do: receive treatment for my condition and get on with

my life. But was

> it the spiritual thing to do? Was it the right thing to have

done?

>

> Today, at age 51, I look like a " normal " guy my age but still

feel like

> that teenager. I have remarried and my wife and I have several

ministry areas

> that we are involved in. But the T. shots still bring all kinds

of baggage

> with them. I am obsessed at times with sexual stuff and still

become angry at

> the drop of a hat. And this may sound strange to some, but it

bothers me a

> great deal that I can't bring myself to cry! In attempting to

correct the

> situation, I've tried T. gels and patches...they don't penetrate

my skin, so I

> am stuck with injections. I just don't know what to do.

>

> I was off of all T. therapy for about two months in the fall. As

expected,

> things went well spiritually...but I began to not feel well

physically and

> became very depressed, unmotivated and indecisive. I'm back on T.

shots

> again...with all of the same blessings and cursings as usual. I

realize that many

> guys don't consider anger and sexual compulsions to

be " problems, " but

> some of us do. At this stage in life, these are things that I

really don't need

> and things which our little ministries cannot afford.

>

> I will appreciate any comments that the more 'religious' on our

list can

> offer.

>

> Thanks

>

> Dean in Cincy

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>