Re: Pain--I sort of have a low level ache all over

[Guest guest]

Jerry,

I don't think there is any doubt about it. If you are low T and/or

low free-T now then that all-over sorness can certainly be

associated. It's part of the fatigue thing..

y

> Wondering if anyone can correlate pain..sort of an all body ache,

> with low Testosterone levels.

>

> In addition to fatigue, anxiety, low libido, and stuff, I simply

> hurt all over. I'm 42, not old enough to hurt all over:)

>

> Will a boost in T make me feel better??

>

> Thanks

> Jerry

[Guest guest]

I've hurt all over for more years than I care to remember, but remember that

bone diseases such as arthritis and osteoporosis are associated with low T,

since it is testosterone that is designed to keep your bones healthy.

As I now have arthritis and muscle atrophy I hurt even more and I can't have

any more T than I am having now because my body can't tolerate it.

BTW I'm also 42.

Steph

----- Original Message -----

From: " octoberguy1 "

Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 4:55 PM

> Wondering if anyone can correlate pain..sort of an all body ache,

> with low Testosterone levels.

>

> In addition to fatigue, anxiety, low libido, and stuff, I simply

> hurt all over. I'm 42, not old enough to hurt all over:)

[Guest guest]

Jerry and Others,

I was DXed with Klinefelter Syndrome 30 years ago at the age of 30

and had been on testosterone for the six months prior to my DX. The

geneticist(one of the top 5 in the USA in 1973) that DXed me advised

me to get off testosterone immediately and to stay off. I am so

thankful that I took his advice, because the testosterone did nothing

positive for me. After taking testo for 6 months, I didn't even have

anymore body hair.

Now at the age of 60, I am in the best physical, mental and spiritual

health than at any other time in my life, and I am not impotent. My

wife says all I ever think about is sex. LOL Physically, I am

stronger now than when I was in my 30's. The last time that I used

any drug was in November of 1984, and then I only took 4 aspirin.

About the only aches that I ever have come after walking like 6 miles

because my feet and ankles are so thin that it is difficult to find

shoes that don't cause my ankle bones to hurt from the shoe rubbing

on them. Just this past Sunday, I hiked 9 miles in less than 4 hours

in the mountains(had to turn back as I was in knee deep snow) and

yes, my feet were a little sore after I got home. Wednesday, I

walked 6.5 miles in 1 hour and 50 minutes.

I am rarely sick and if I do get sick, it is always quite mild. I

have been exposed many times to the " flu " and I don't get it. I do

go to great lengths to make sure that my immune system is operating

at optimum levels. I am what many call a " picky " eater, but it pays

in the long run. I use no tobacco products, rarely get caffeine,

rarely drink carbonated soft drinks, and maybe have a glass of wine

once a year. I do consume what some call a lot of plain old pure

water daily.

Since I have Klinefelter Syndrome, I am sure that my testosterone

levels are, at best, in the low end of the range. However, it is my

opinion that my testosterone levels are plenty adequate for me, not

maybe Jerry or y or anyone else in this group. Every day, I

have energy and stamina to burn and can outlast most of my 46XY male

friends in activities that require walking and standing. There are

days, when I stand all day long and am not exhausted at the end of

the day. I rarely get 6 or more hours of uninterrupted sleep at

night and it isn't because I am getting up to urinate, it is because

I am not sleepy enough to sleep more than 6 hours at a time. The

only time that I have to get up to urinate is when I have had lots to

drink right before I go to bed.

HAVE A GREAT DAY!

Ivan

> Wondering if anyone can correlate pain..sort of an all body ache,

> with low Testosterone levels.

>

> In addition to fatigue, anxiety, low libido, and stuff, I simply

> hurt all over. I'm 42, not old enough to hurt all over:)

>

> Will a boost in T make me feel better??

>

> Thanks

> Jerry

[Guest guest]

Ivan,

That sounds great. Super story for sure. I am hoping that TRT will

not be the end result for me. My T is low (147 ng/dl, 168 ng/dl last

two tests) and my free T is dismal. But with all of that I am still

a very active and healthy individual. At 37 I'm 6'1 " , 185, and play

soccer regularly. I am just not as healthy and active and driven as I

use to be and should be. ED is a problem and ability to concentrate,

remember things, etc.. is a problem as well. I realize now how much

effort I put into still doing all of the activities I do. What a

chore it is to make myself be anywhere near like I was just a few

years back. When it use to be such a joy, so easy. I know now that I

push my self to do these things because I know I should. I'm still

hanging in there at work, high preassure sales job. My performance

there is average now when it use to be stellar.

I'm with you on this though, if I can get away without the TRT then I

will be the happiest camper going. I just want to make sure of what

is going on, make sure there isn't anything critical, and then let's

work to solve the problem. Im my most perfect world all of this

solves itself. Short of that if they can stimulate the Pituitary axis

and that does the trick then I am still quite happy and fortunate.

Your also correct about eating properly. I am a firm believer in

eating only whole foods, clean protein, and no refined products or

sugar. It makes a difference.

In reading Dr. Shippen's book, he does says that it is not

unreasonible for one man to be fine at a low level with another being

miserable at the same. Ivan, I only hope to find myself blessed at

60. Thanks.

y

> Jerry and Others,

>

> I was DXed with Klinefelter Syndrome 30 years ago at the age of 30

> and had been on testosterone for the six months prior to my DX.

The

> geneticist(one of the top 5 in the USA in 1973) that DXed me

advised

> me to get off testosterone immediately and to stay off. I am so

> thankful that I took his advice, because the testosterone did

nothing

> positive for me. After taking testo for 6 months, I didn't even

have

> anymore body hair.

>

> Now at the age of 60, I am in the best physical, mental and

spiritual

> health than at any other time in my life, and I am not impotent.

My

> wife says all I ever think about is sex. LOL Physically, I am

> stronger now than when I was in my 30's. The last time that I used

> any drug was in November of 1984, and then I only took 4 aspirin.

> About the only aches that I ever have come after walking like 6

miles

> because my feet and ankles are so thin that it is difficult to find

> shoes that don't cause my ankle bones to hurt from the shoe rubbing

> on them. Just this past Sunday, I hiked 9 miles in less than 4

hours

> in the mountains(had to turn back as I was in knee deep snow) and

> yes, my feet were a little sore after I got home. Wednesday, I

> walked 6.5 miles in 1 hour and 50 minutes.

>

> I am rarely sick and if I do get sick, it is always quite mild. I

> have been exposed many times to the " flu " and I don't get it. I do

> go to great lengths to make sure that my immune system is operating

> at optimum levels. I am what many call a " picky " eater, but it

pays

> in the long run. I use no tobacco products, rarely get caffeine,

> rarely drink carbonated soft drinks, and maybe have a glass of wine

> once a year. I do consume what some call a lot of plain old pure

> water daily.

>

> Since I have Klinefelter Syndrome, I am sure that my testosterone

> levels are, at best, in the low end of the range. However, it is

my

> opinion that my testosterone levels are plenty adequate for me, not

> maybe Jerry or y or anyone else in this group. Every day, I

> have energy and stamina to burn and can outlast most of my 46XY

male

> friends in activities that require walking and standing. There are

> days, when I stand all day long and am not exhausted at the end of

> the day. I rarely get 6 or more hours of uninterrupted sleep at

> night and it isn't because I am getting up to urinate, it is

because

> I am not sleepy enough to sleep more than 6 hours at a time. The

> only time that I have to get up to urinate is when I have had lots

to

> drink right before I go to bed.

>

> HAVE A GREAT DAY!

> Ivan

>

> > Wondering if anyone can correlate pain..sort of an all body ache,

> > with low Testosterone levels.

> >

> > In addition to fatigue, anxiety, low libido, and stuff, I simply

> > hurt all over. I'm 42, not old enough to hurt all over:)

> >

> > Will a boost in T make me feel better??

> >

> > Thanks

> > Jerry

[Guest guest]

y,

Your T is VERY low. I was at 137. This is about normal for an 11 or

12 year old!

Remember to have them check your bone density. This is a problem that

creeps up on you over time with low T. My Endo was great and ordered

a test immediately. I had osteoporosis and am now on meds to

stop/correct it.

It would be great not to have to take meds, but if they actually help

you I'm all for it. I think people can be way too anti-medicine and

miss out on a lot of good therapy that would make a difference in

their lives. When I was in the pharmacy industry, I saw a lot of

people wreck their bodies on " natural " products or by neglecting

therapy altogether in favor of some reputed regimen that would cure

their ills without seeing an MD. 80% of all commercial medicines are

plant or fungi derivatives. Androgel is made from a Mexican sweet

potato!

K4

> > Jerry and Others,

> >

> > I was DXed with Klinefelter Syndrome 30 years ago at the age of

30

> > and had been on testosterone for the six months prior to my DX.

> The

> > geneticist(one of the top 5 in the USA in 1973) that DXed me

> advised

> > me to get off testosterone immediately and to stay off. I am so

> > thankful that I took his advice, because the testosterone did

> nothing

> > positive for me. After taking testo for 6 months, I didn't even

> have

> > anymore body hair.

> >

> > Now at the age of 60, I am in the best physical, mental and

> spiritual

> > health than at any other time in my life, and I am not impotent.

> My

> > wife says all I ever think about is sex. LOL Physically, I am

> > stronger now than when I was in my 30's. The last time that I

used

> > any drug was in November of 1984, and then I only took 4

aspirin.

> > About the only aches that I ever have come after walking like 6

> miles

> > because my feet and ankles are so thin that it is difficult to

find

> > shoes that don't cause my ankle bones to hurt from the shoe

rubbing

> > on them. Just this past Sunday, I hiked 9 miles in less than 4

> hours

> > in the mountains(had to turn back as I was in knee deep snow) and

> > yes, my feet were a little sore after I got home. Wednesday, I

> > walked 6.5 miles in 1 hour and 50 minutes.

> >

> > I am rarely sick and if I do get sick, it is always quite mild.

I

> > have been exposed many times to the " flu " and I don't get it. I

do

> > go to great lengths to make sure that my immune system is

operating

> > at optimum levels. I am what many call a " picky " eater, but it

> pays

> > in the long run. I use no tobacco products, rarely get caffeine,

> > rarely drink carbonated soft drinks, and maybe have a glass of

wine

> > once a year. I do consume what some call a lot of plain old pure

> > water daily.

> >

> > Since I have Klinefelter Syndrome, I am sure that my testosterone

> > levels are, at best, in the low end of the range. However, it is

> my

> > opinion that my testosterone levels are plenty adequate for me,

not

> > maybe Jerry or y or anyone else in this group. Every day, I

> > have energy and stamina to burn and can outlast most of my 46XY

> male

> > friends in activities that require walking and standing. There

are

> > days, when I stand all day long and am not exhausted at the end

of

> > the day. I rarely get 6 or more hours of uninterrupted sleep at

> > night and it isn't because I am getting up to urinate, it is

> because

> > I am not sleepy enough to sleep more than 6 hours at a time. The

> > only time that I have to get up to urinate is when I have had

lots

> to

> > drink right before I go to bed.

> >

> > HAVE A GREAT DAY!

> > Ivan

> >

> > > Wondering if anyone can correlate pain..sort of an all body

ache,

> > > with low Testosterone levels.

> > >

> > > In addition to fatigue, anxiety, low libido, and stuff, I

simply

> > > hurt all over. I'm 42, not old enough to hurt all over:)

> > >

> > > Will a boost in T make me feel better??

> > >

> > > Thanks

> > > Jerry

[Guest guest]

Steph -

I have the same problems - osteopenia and arthritus and some sort of

metabolic bone disease. My legs are always causing me extreme pain.

I use a narcotic pain killer patch to handle it. I also take 1200

units of Vitamin D daily per my Endo's orders.

For all of you - if you have not had a Bone Density Test - go ask

for one.

Ken

> I've hurt all over for more years than I care to remember, but

remember that

> bone diseases such as arthritis and osteoporosis are associated

with low T,

> since it is testosterone that is designed to keep your bones

healthy.

>

> As I now have arthritis and muscle atrophy I hurt even more and I

can't have

> any more T than I am having now because my body can't tolerate it.

> BTW I'm also 42.

> Steph

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: " octoberguy1 "

> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 4:55 PM

>

>

> > Wondering if anyone can correlate pain..sort of an all body ache,

> > with low Testosterone levels.

> >

> > In addition to fatigue, anxiety, low libido, and stuff, I simply

> > hurt all over. I'm 42, not old enough to hurt all over:)

[Guest guest]

K4,

Thanks for the support. We will see tomorrow. It's Sunday night and

I am all tied up being nervious about my first Endo appointment

tomorrrow. I just need to be self assured and confident. My fear is

that I will end up with someone who just wants to blow my concerns

off like so many I hear stories about. I've spoken alot about it

here, now it's time for me to practice what I've been writting.

Hopefully I will have a good experience at the Endo and I won't need

to be assertive. But if I don't (have a good experience), I will (be

assertive). I want my old life back. This shouldn't happen at any

age, and certainly not now when I'm just 37.

y

> > > Jerry and Others,

> > >

> > > I was DXed with Klinefelter Syndrome 30 years ago at the age of

> 30

> > > and had been on testosterone for the six months prior to my

DX.

> > The

> > > geneticist(one of the top 5 in the USA in 1973) that DXed me

> > advised

> > > me to get off testosterone immediately and to stay off. I am

so

> > > thankful that I took his advice, because the testosterone did

> > nothing

> > > positive for me. After taking testo for 6 months, I didn't

even

> > have

> > > anymore body hair.

> > >

> > > Now at the age of 60, I am in the best physical, mental and

> > spiritual

> > > health than at any other time in my life, and I am not

impotent.

> > My

> > > wife says all I ever think about is sex. LOL Physically, I am

> > > stronger now than when I was in my 30's. The last time that I

> used

> > > any drug was in November of 1984, and then I only took 4

> aspirin.

> > > About the only aches that I ever have come after walking like 6

> > miles

> > > because my feet and ankles are so thin that it is difficult to

> find

> > > shoes that don't cause my ankle bones to hurt from the shoe

> rubbing

> > > on them. Just this past Sunday, I hiked 9 miles in less than 4

> > hours

> > > in the mountains(had to turn back as I was in knee deep snow)

and

> > > yes, my feet were a little sore after I got home. Wednesday, I

> > > walked 6.5 miles in 1 hour and 50 minutes.

> > >

> > > I am rarely sick and if I do get sick, it is always quite

mild.

> I

> > > have been exposed many times to the " flu " and I don't get it.

I

> do

> > > go to great lengths to make sure that my immune system is

> operating

> > > at optimum levels. I am what many call a " picky " eater, but it

> > pays

> > > in the long run. I use no tobacco products, rarely get

caffeine,

> > > rarely drink carbonated soft drinks, and maybe have a glass of

> wine

> > > once a year. I do consume what some call a lot of plain old

pure

> > > water daily.

> > >

> > > Since I have Klinefelter Syndrome, I am sure that my

testosterone

> > > levels are, at best, in the low end of the range. However, it

is

> > my

> > > opinion that my testosterone levels are plenty adequate for me,

> not

> > > maybe Jerry or y or anyone else in this group. Every day,

I

> > > have energy and stamina to burn and can outlast most of my 46XY

> > male

> > > friends in activities that require walking and standing. There

> are

> > > days, when I stand all day long and am not exhausted at the end

> of

> > > the day. I rarely get 6 or more hours of uninterrupted sleep

at

> > > night and it isn't because I am getting up to urinate, it is

> > because

> > > I am not sleepy enough to sleep more than 6 hours at a time.

The

> > > only time that I have to get up to urinate is when I have had

> lots

> > to

> > > drink right before I go to bed.

> > >

> > > HAVE A GREAT DAY!

> > > Ivan

> > >

> > > > Wondering if anyone can correlate pain..sort of an all body

> ache,

> > > > with low Testosterone levels.

> > > >

> > > > In addition to fatigue, anxiety, low libido, and stuff, I

> simply

> > > > hurt all over. I'm 42, not old enough to hurt all over:)

> > > >

> > > > Will a boost in T make me feel better??

> > > >

> > > > Thanks

> > > > Jerry

[Guest guest]

y, let us know how it goes today. I'm especially interested as

I see an Endo next week, for the first time.

Jerry

> > > > Jerry and Others,

> > > >

> > > > I was DXed with Klinefelter Syndrome 30 years ago at the age

of

> > 30

> > > > and had been on testosterone for the six months prior to my

> DX.

> > > The

> > > > geneticist(one of the top 5 in the USA in 1973) that DXed me

> > > advised

> > > > me to get off testosterone immediately and to stay off. I

am

> so

> > > > thankful that I took his advice, because the testosterone

did

> > > nothing

> > > > positive for me. After taking testo for 6 months, I didn't

> even

> > > have

> > > > anymore body hair.

> > > >

> > > > Now at the age of 60, I am in the best physical, mental and

> > > spiritual

> > > > health than at any other time in my life, and I am not

> impotent.

> > > My

> > > > wife says all I ever think about is sex. LOL Physically, I

am

> > > > stronger now than when I was in my 30's. The last time that

I

> > used

> > > > any drug was in November of 1984, and then I only took 4

> > aspirin.

> > > > About the only aches that I ever have come after walking

like 6

> > > miles

> > > > because my feet and ankles are so thin that it is difficult

to

> > find

> > > > shoes that don't cause my ankle bones to hurt from the shoe

> > rubbing

> > > > on them. Just this past Sunday, I hiked 9 miles in less

than 4

> > > hours

> > > > in the mountains(had to turn back as I was in knee deep

snow)

> and

> > > > yes, my feet were a little sore after I got home.

Wednesday, I

> > > > walked 6.5 miles in 1 hour and 50 minutes.

> > > >

> > > > I am rarely sick and if I do get sick, it is always quite

> mild.

> > I

> > > > have been exposed many times to the " flu " and I don't get

it.

> I

> > do

> > > > go to great lengths to make sure that my immune system is

> > operating

> > > > at optimum levels. I am what many call a " picky " eater, but

it

> > > pays

> > > > in the long run. I use no tobacco products, rarely get

> caffeine,

> > > > rarely drink carbonated soft drinks, and maybe have a glass

of

> > wine

> > > > once a year. I do consume what some call a lot of plain old

> pure

> > > > water daily.

> > > >

> > > > Since I have Klinefelter Syndrome, I am sure that my

> testosterone

> > > > levels are, at best, in the low end of the range. However,

it

> is

> > > my

> > > > opinion that my testosterone levels are plenty adequate for

me,

> > not

> > > > maybe Jerry or y or anyone else in this group. Every

day,

> I

> > > > have energy and stamina to burn and can outlast most of my

46XY

> > > male

> > > > friends in activities that require walking and standing.

There

> > are

> > > > days, when I stand all day long and am not exhausted at the

end

> > of

> > > > the day. I rarely get 6 or more hours of uninterrupted

sleep

> at

> > > > night and it isn't because I am getting up to urinate, it is

> > > because

> > > > I am not sleepy enough to sleep more than 6 hours at a

time.

> The

> > > > only time that I have to get up to urinate is when I have

had

> > lots

> > > to

> > > > drink right before I go to bed.

> > > >

> > > > HAVE A GREAT DAY!

> > > > Ivan

> > > >

> > > > > Wondering if anyone can correlate pain..sort of an all

body

> > ache,

> > > > > with low Testosterone levels.

> > > > >

> > > > > In addition to fatigue, anxiety, low libido, and stuff, I

> > simply

> > > > > hurt all over. I'm 42, not old enough to hurt all over:)

> > > > >

> > > > > Will a boost in T make me feel better??

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks

> > > > > Jerry

[Guest guest]

I've had 3 bone density tests in 6 years (one every 2 years), all results

are 'normal' - there goes that word again!

My Rheumatologist thinks the problems could be Klinefelter related, whereas

I think it may be more to do with the replacement T but as usual the docs

shake their heads and rule that out, despite having previously admitted that

they don't really know. I know of another guy who has Klinefelters who was

told by his endo that 'the muscle waste is being caused by the Testo

dropping too quickly'.......

When I suggested this to my endo, his reply was, 'your levels are not low'!

I pointed out to him that I never said they were. He then dismissed the T

theory out of hand.

As there are no hard and fast rules about how much or how little T an endo

prescribes to his/her patients (unlike Oestrogen) it makes you wonder,

especially as the majority of Endo's haven't really got a clue what they are

treating.

Bearing in mind that all drugs can have catastrophes side effects,

particularly if taken over long periods of time.

I don't know if there is any truth in my suspicions, but I often wonder what

damage is being done by T replacement. Do the pro's outweigh the con's or

vice-versa?!?!?!

Steph

----- Original Message -----

From: ken

Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 3:17 PM

> Steph -

>

> I have the same problems - osteopenia and arthritus and some sort of

> metabolic bone disease. My legs are always causing me extreme pain.

> I use a narcotic pain killer patch to handle it. I also take 1200

> units of Vitamin D daily per my Endo's orders.

>

> For all of you - if you have not had a Bone Density Test - go ask

> for one.

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: y

Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 3:54 AM

You'll probably find that you'll have to adjust to a 'new' life. In an ideal

world it shouldn't happen at any age, but unfortunately it does and

sometimes to people much younger than 37.

Hope all went well yesterday.

Steph

I want my old life back. This shouldn't happen at any

> age, and certainly not now when I'm just 37.

[Guest guest]

Steph,

Thanks. I'm just happy to be here. If I can find some improvement

then I'll be even more blessed.

y

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: y

> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 3:54 AM

>

>

> You'll probably find that you'll have to adjust to a 'new' life. In

an ideal

> world it shouldn't happen at any age, but unfortunately it does and

> sometimes to people much younger than 37.

>

> Hope all went well yesterday.

>

> Steph

>

> I want my old life back. This shouldn't happen at any

> > age, and certainly not now when I'm just 37.

[Guest guest]

Of course. It's all any of us can hope to achieve. It's just a pity some

doctors can't get a handle on that. Psychologically I have improved beyond

what I once could ever have hoped for, physically however I am quite

drained. Today I can barely keep my eyes open. More than 10 minutes at this

monitor annoys my eyes and gives me a headache. I used to take a slightly

higher dose of T, but I became far more aggressive than I felt comfortable

with, so I asked the endo if he would agree to lowering the dose. In this

respect my endo is helpful because he allows me to raise or lower the dose

and he appreciates my input there, but his appreciation and interest come in

half-measures.

Almost a year on and he still has not sent me the results of the last

blood-work, despite several requests from me. In that respect, his

predecessor sent me a copy almost immediately afterwards, as a matter of

course.

Our health service may be free, but because we don't pay for it we are given

a poor service and because we don't pay for it, it is expected that we lie

down and say nothing. Unfortunately when we do complain, doctors have the

right to drop a patient like a ton of bricks if they deem the patient to be

undermining the doctor/patient relationship.

I was dumped by my GP because I told her of the wonderful service I received

from my friends GP (I was visiting a friend 200 miles away). How his

'bedside manner' was second to none and how much nicer it would be if she

(my GP) could be like that too. Next thing I know she's dumped me as her

patient. Now I've been allocated another GP and literally told to behave

myself or else!

If we had to pay, none of this would happen.

Good luck with the lab results.

Steph

----- Original Message -----

From: y

Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 4:09 PM

> Steph,

>

> Thanks. I'm just happy to be here. If I can find some improvement

> then I'll be even more blessed.