New to Group (My history and questions attached)

December 28, 2004

Hi All,

I am 38 years old and I was diagnosed with

Hypogonadism 7 years ago

and Klinefelter's

Syndrome about 5 years ago. When I was 31 I was

working out with a

personal trainer and

I was having trouble losing weight and gaining muscle

mass, he

suggested that I have my

testosterone checked and when I did at that time it

was 88. My PCP

re-checked it,

because they thought the results were wrong, but as

it turns out they

were correct. They

asked me if I was taking steriods and I replied that

I wasn't and

that I really don't like to

take shots nor I am taking any other drugs. They

waited a few months

and retested me

and the level had dropped to 63, they then sent me

to an

Endocrinologist. He diagnosed

me with Hypogonadism and he began to run extensive

tests on me,

however everything

came up negative for me, so I was still classed as

having

Hypogonadism. He retested my

Testosterone level and it was now at 41, so he gave

me one of the two

possible patches to

try. I filled the prescription and tried it for

five days, as it

turns out I was allergic to this

patch. Then I tried the other patch with the same

results. He said

that the pill was

dangerous and it would attack my liver, so he

suggested injections,

but I was skeptical as I

was allergic to both patches and I didn't want to

have an allergic

reaction to an injection,

so I self referred myself to an Allergist and he

tested me with the

Testosterone and I had

no allergic reaction. Low and behold me who doesn't

like needles, I

would now need to

get injections every 2 weeks for life. A year or two

after I started the injections, the endo doc gave me a

prescription for androgel and tried this and I

discovered that I was allergic to this form of

testosterone, too.

The injections definitely helped with my mood

swings, but I was still

tired during the day

with no energy increase. So I cannot remember

(actually I self

referred myself because of

an excess snoring problem that I had) how or why I

went to have a

sleep study done, but it

turns out that I also have sleep apnea. Once I got

this under

control, I had an abundance

of energy.

Now the last test that the Endo tested me for was

Klinefelter's

Syndrome and as it turns

out that was what I have been diagnosed with (47,

XXY). I asked the

Doc why he didn't

check this sooner and he said that I didn't have the

symptoms of KS.

He said that normally

people that have KS are tall (which I am 6' 4 " ), but

their arm span

is usually shorter (I have

a normal arm span).

I have been reading comments from others about DIM.

What does DIM stand for? If I went into a

health/vitamin store and asked for DIM, would they

know what I wanted? What is 6-OXO, is it similar to

DIM?

Just today I went and had blood work done to test both

my E2 and DHT levels. To my knowledge my E2 has never

been taken. I once asked my Endo Doc, to measure my

E2 level and he informed me that on a man they don't

know what the level should be (this was about five

years ago). Just recently I was talking with another

Doctor about bio-identical hormones, because I was

concerned with taking injections as I didn't want the

testosterone to attack my liver. This Doctor

suggested that I have my Estradiol and

Dihydrotestosterone tested, which is why I had the

blood work done. I work out at the gym three times a

week for the last two years with a personal trainer

and I can't seem to lose fat around my pecs. I was

thinking that this maybe do to excess E2 in my pec

area. I currently take a 1 ml (200 mg) injection once

every two weeks of delatestryl. My current level of

testosterone is 550.

What does the group know about Bio-identical hormones?

It is my understanding the a bio-identical hormone,

is as close to the hormones that your body makes that

the pharmacutical companies cannot patent the

hormones, so therefore they cannot make any money, so

they don't sell the hormones. I believe that only a

compound pharmacist can mix up the hormones. I was

thinking that I could possibly take some bio-identical

hormones along with my testosterone and maybe reduce

my dosage of delatestryl.

Feel free to comment on any or all of the above, as I

am seeking as much information as possible.

Thanks,

Mark

__________________________________________________

December 29, 2004

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 23:33:16 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

>

>Hi All,

>

>I am 38 years old and I was diagnosed with

>Hypogonadism 7 years ago

>and Klinefelter's

>Syndrome about 5 years ago. When I was 31 I was

>working out with a

>personal trainer and

>I was having trouble losing weight and gaining muscle

>mass, he

>suggested that I have my

>testosterone checked and when I did at that time it

>was 88. My PCP

>re-checked it,

>because they thought the results were wrong, but as

>it turns out they

>were correct. They

>asked me if I was taking steriods and I replied that

>I wasn't and

>that I really don't like to

>take shots nor I am taking any other drugs. They

>waited a few months

>and retested me

>and the level had dropped to 63, they then sent me

>to an

>Endocrinologist. He diagnosed

>me with Hypogonadism and he began to run extensive

>tests on me,

>however everything

>came up negative for me, so I was still classed as

>having

>Hypogonadism. He retested my

>Testosterone level and it was now at 41, so he gave

>me one of the two

>possible patches to

>try. I filled the prescription and tried it for

>five days, as it

>turns out I was allergic to this

>patch. Then I tried the other patch with the same

>results. He said

>that the pill was

>dangerous and it would attack my liver, so he

>suggested injections,

>but I was skeptical as I

>was allergic to both patches and I didn't want to

>have an allergic

>reaction to an injection,

>so I self referred myself to an Allergist and he

>tested me with the

>Testosterone and I had

>no allergic reaction. Low and behold me who doesn't

>like needles, I

>would now need to

>get injections every 2 weeks for life. A year or two

>after I started the injections, the endo doc gave me a

>prescription for androgel and tried this and I

>discovered that I was allergic to this form of

>testosterone, too.

>

>The injections definitely helped with my mood

>swings, but I was still

>tired during the day

>with no energy increase. So I cannot remember

>(actually I self

>referred myself because of

>an excess snoring problem that I had) how or why I

>went to have a

>sleep study done, but it

>turns out that I also have sleep apnea. Once I got

>this under

>control, I had an abundance

>of energy.

>

>Now the last test that the Endo tested me for was

>Klinefelter's

>Syndrome and as it turns

>out that was what I have been diagnosed with (47,

>XXY). I asked the

>Doc why he didn't

>check this sooner and he said that I didn't have the

>symptoms of KS.

>He said that normally

>people that have KS are tall (which I am 6' 4 " ), but

>their arm span

>is usually shorter (I have

>a normal arm span).

>

>I have been reading comments from others about DIM.

>What does DIM stand for? If I went into a

>health/vitamin store and asked for DIM, would they

>know what I wanted? What is 6-OXO, is it similar to

>DIM?

>

>Just today I went and had blood work done to test both

>my E2 and DHT levels. To my knowledge my E2 has never

>been taken. I once asked my Endo Doc, to measure my

>E2 level and he informed me that on a man they don't

>know what the level should be (this was about five

>years ago). Just recently I was talking with another

>Doctor about bio-identical hormones, because I was

>concerned with taking injections as I didn't want the

>testosterone to attack my liver. This Doctor

>suggested that I have my Estradiol and

>Dihydrotestosterone tested, which is why I had the

>blood work done. I work out at the gym three times a

>week for the last two years with a personal trainer

>and I can't seem to lose fat around my pecs. I was

>thinking that this maybe do to excess E2 in my pec

>area. I currently take a 1 ml (200 mg) injection once

>every two weeks of delatestryl. My current level of

>testosterone is 550.

>

>What does the group know about Bio-identical hormones?

> It is my understanding the a bio-identical hormone,

>is as close to the hormones that your body makes that

>the pharmacutical companies cannot patent the

>hormones, so therefore they cannot make any money, so

>they don't sell the hormones. I believe that only a

>compound pharmacist can mix up the hormones. I was

>thinking that I could possibly take some bio-identical

>hormones along with my testosterone and maybe reduce

>my dosage of delatestryl.

>

>Feel free to comment on any or all of the above, as I

>am seeking as much information as possible.

I hope after starting injections on a regular basis you've overcome

your fear of needles. it sounds like your answer lies in that

direction.

A couple of observations:

The fatigue that you talk of while on injections could be caused by

two things. E2 (same thing as estradiol) can negate the effects of

good testosterone levels. it seems to out compete T in some areas and

in some brain sectors specifically.

The " fat " you speak of around your pects may actually be " female "

breast tissue. Higher E2 leads to development of breast tissue in

males. Its called gynomastia. Doctors can remove this tissue

surgically if its too much or bothersome. old school doctors thought

this was all the response needed for high E2. this ignores the impacts

on energy, libido, concentration etc. With the extra X of klinefelters

you likely have higher levels than those of us just XY on T.

As to the fatigue It may also be that you have sleep apnea. It is

fairly common among people on TRT. But I'd guess E2 first personally.

Shots every two weeks will likely put you on a roller coaster of ups

and downs. Weekly shots at 1/2 the dosage are preferable. It avoids

higher E2 levels some. And provides a more constant T level that will

keep your energy levels more consistent .

There is a klinfelters online support organization that is quite good

and helpful. Hopefully others here with the site close at hand will

post it. If not get back to me and I'll dig it up. (one of the things

that's coming out lately is that Klinefelters is far wider spread

than previously thought. the " classic " symptoms are merely one

expression of the condition. Many have it with little or no expression

of these symptoms. i.e, most doctors, even endos don't know the latest

on the disease. Hopefully the support group will help more.

I suggest pushing for an e2 test with total and free T and SHBG and

DHT before messing with DIM, bio hormone supplements, and such. You

need a good baseline number before you start tinkering.

Most of us feel better with our T levels around 750 and E2 in the 20

to 35 range.

Shots have lots to recommend them over gel and patches. However down

the line you may like pellets. But the insertion of those is a bit

more than an injection being a minor " surgery " but only once every

four months or so.

Fight for the tests. And come back with your numbers here. I always

suggest getting reliable info before messing about with suggested

fixes. Especially given very few here are dealing with Klinefelters

and it raises issues unique to it.

This article may give you doc some idea of the interplay on E2 and T.

http://www.asiaandro.com/1008-682X/5/307.htm

It discusses selected " crosstalk " a few issues between the two for

examples for him.

- - - -

Just another albino black sheep

December 29, 2004

Hi,

This is near criminal what has happened to you. To bad it is typical

of patients with hormone problems.

My endocrinologist has a web site and will answer questions.

http://www.members.aol.com/gambr999/

Dr. Gamberll, Augusta, GA has been treating couples for infertility an

men for andropause for decades, long before the pharmceutical

companies brought their products to market and started telling doctors

about hormones. Hollywood stars used to fly in every 4 months for

their pellets. Bob Hope was one mentioned.

Most doctors are new to hormone therapy and will not provide enough

hormone to bring you to the high normal range of 800-1000 where you

can really get the benefit because of fear and no experience. The

pharmaceutical reps provide their information instead of formal training.

Your alergic reaction is probably due to the carrier they mix with the

testosterone to get it thru the skin.

As another suggested, hormone pellets are bio-identical hormones and

will dissolve under the skin in 4 months requiring another visit at

that time. It is rare because of the slow release of the hormone that

your body will react and start converting t to E2 which causes lots of

trouble I hear when using the patch and even injections. Spurts of

hormone cause the body to react.

ernestnolan

>

> Hi All,

>

> I am 38 years old and I was diagnosed with

> Hypogonadism 7 years ago

> and Klinefelter's

> Syndrome about 5 years ago. When I was 31 I was

> working out with a

> personal trainer and

> I was having trouble losing weight and gaining muscle

> mass, he

> suggested that I have my

> testosterone checked and when I did at that time it

> was 88. My PCP

> re-checked it,

> because they thought the results were wrong, but as

> it turns out they

> were correct. They

> asked me if I was taking steriods and I replied that

> I wasn't and

> that I really don't like to

> take shots nor I am taking any other drugs. They

> waited a few months

> and retested me

> and the level had dropped to 63, they then sent me

> to an

> Endocrinologist. He diagnosed

> me with Hypogonadism and he began to run extensive

> tests on me,

> however everything

> came up negative for me, so I was still classed as

> having

> Hypogonadism. He retested my

> Testosterone level and it was now at 41, so he gave

> me one of the two

> possible patches to

> try. I filled the prescription and tried it for

> five days, as it

> turns out I was allergic to this

> patch. Then I tried the other patch with the same

> results. He said

> that the pill was

> dangerous and it would attack my liver, so he

> suggested injections,

> but I was skeptical as I

> was allergic to both patches and I didn't want to

> have an allergic

> reaction to an injection,

> so I self referred myself to an Allergist and he

> tested me with the

> Testosterone and I had

> no allergic reaction. Low and behold me who doesn't

> like needles, I

> would now need to

> get injections every 2 weeks for life. A year or two

> after I started the injections, the endo doc gave me a

> prescription for androgel and tried this and I

> discovered that I was allergic to this form of

> testosterone, too.

>

> The injections definitely helped with my mood

> swings, but I was still

> tired during the day

> with no energy increase. So I cannot remember

> (actually I self

> referred myself because of

> an excess snoring problem that I had) how or why I

> went to have a

> sleep study done, but it

> turns out that I also have sleep apnea. Once I got

> this under

> control, I had an abundance

> of energy.

>

> Now the last test that the Endo tested me for was

> Klinefelter's

> Syndrome and as it turns

> out that was what I have been diagnosed with (47,

> XXY). I asked the

> Doc why he didn't

> check this sooner and he said that I didn't have the

> symptoms of KS.

> He said that normally

> people that have KS are tall (which I am 6' 4 " ), but

> their arm span

> is usually shorter (I have

> a normal arm span).

>

> I have been reading comments from others about DIM.

> What does DIM stand for? If I went into a

> health/vitamin store and asked for DIM, would they

> know what I wanted? What is 6-OXO, is it similar to

> DIM?

>

> Just today I went and had blood work done to test both

> my E2 and DHT levels. To my knowledge my E2 has never

> been taken. I once asked my Endo Doc, to measure my

> E2 level and he informed me that on a man they don't

> know what the level should be (this was about five

> years ago). Just recently I was talking with another

> Doctor about bio-identical hormones, because I was

> concerned with taking injections as I didn't want the

> testosterone to attack my liver. This Doctor

> suggested that I have my Estradiol and

> Dihydrotestosterone tested, which is why I had the

> blood work done. I work out at the gym three times a

> week for the last two years with a personal trainer

> and I can't seem to lose fat around my pecs. I was

> thinking that this maybe do to excess E2 in my pec

> area. I currently take a 1 ml (200 mg) injection once

> every two weeks of delatestryl. My current level of

> testosterone is 550.

>

> What does the group know about Bio-identical hormones?

> It is my understanding the a bio-identical hormone,

> is as close to the hormones that your body makes that

> the pharmacutical companies cannot patent the

> hormones, so therefore they cannot make any money, so

> they don't sell the hormones. I believe that only a

> compound pharmacist can mix up the hormones. I was

> thinking that I could possibly take some bio-identical

> hormones along with my testosterone and maybe reduce

> my dosage of delatestryl.

>

> Feel free to comment on any or all of the above, as I

> am seeking as much information as possible.

>

> Thanks,

> Mark

>

> __________________________________________________

>

December 29, 2004

Hi Mark (lb),

This is one of the best places to learn about testosterone replacement

therapy. Many of us have received lackluster treatment, which is all too

common with TRT. Some have managed to " train " their docs. Others (like me)

finally found a doc who understood this stuff.

A complete male hormone test panel should include total T, free T, DHEA-S,

Estradiol ( E2) , FSH, LH, Prolactin and SHBG. Ongoing tests of at least T, free

T and E2 should be done at the very least every 6 weeks after a dosage

change, and at the very least every 6 months after dosage and results have

stabilized. I think you're absolutely right about your E2 being too high. It

should have been tested from the beginning. But it sounds like your doc won't

know what to do about it. Bone density should be checked too.

Looks like you're going to either be using injections or implanted pellets. You

might want to look into pellets, they last about 5 months. I'm doing injections

and have learned to do them myself.

Okay, here's a suggestion: Find a doc near you who includes testosterone

pellet implantation as part of his/her practice. You don't have to go on

pellets,

but if the doc knows how to do them he's likely to know other TRT. Try calling

Bartor Pharmical in Rye, NY, Phone: 914-967-4219. Ask for the names of 3

docs closest to you. Another place to find a doc:

http://www.collegepharmacy.com/community/findaprovider.asp

Best,

Bruce

>

> Hi All,

>

> I am 38 years old and I was diagnosed with

> Hypogonadism 7 years ago

> and Klinefelter's

> Syndrome about 5 years ago. When I was 31 I was

> working out with a

> personal trainer and

> I was having trouble losing weight and gaining muscle

> mass, he

> suggested that I have my

> testosterone checked and when I did at that time it

> was 88. My PCP

> re-checked it,

> because they thought the results were wrong, but as

> it turns out they

> were correct. They

> asked me if I was taking steriods and I replied that

> I wasn't and

> that I really don't like to

> take shots nor I am taking any other drugs. They

> waited a few months

> and retested me

> and the level had dropped to 63, they then sent me

> to an

> Endocrinologist. He diagnosed

> me with Hypogonadism and he began to run extensive

> tests on me,

> however everything

> came up negative for me, so I was still classed as

> having

> Hypogonadism. He retested my

> Testosterone level and it was now at 41, so he gave

> me one of the two

> possible patches to

> try. I filled the prescription and tried it for

> five days, as it

> turns out I was allergic to this

> patch. Then I tried the other patch with the same

> results. He said

> that the pill was

> dangerous and it would attack my liver, so he

> suggested injections,

> but I was skeptical as I

> was allergic to both patches and I didn't want to

> have an allergic

> reaction to an injection,

> so I self referred myself to an Allergist and he

> tested me with the

> Testosterone and I had

> no allergic reaction. Low and behold me who doesn't

> like needles, I

> would now need to

> get injections every 2 weeks for life. A year or two

> after I started the injections, the endo doc gave me a

> prescription for androgel and tried this and I

> discovered that I was allergic to this form of

> testosterone, too.

>

> The injections definitely helped with my mood

> swings, but I was still

> tired during the day

> with no energy increase. So I cannot remember

> (actually I self

> referred myself because of

> an excess snoring problem that I had) how or why I

> went to have a

> sleep study done, but it

> turns out that I also have sleep apnea. Once I got

> this under

> control, I had an abundance

> of energy.

>

> Now the last test that the Endo tested me for was

> Klinefelter's

> Syndrome and as it turns

> out that was what I have been diagnosed with (47,

> XXY). I asked the

> Doc why he didn't

> check this sooner and he said that I didn't have the

> symptoms of KS.

> He said that normally

> people that have KS are tall (which I am 6' 4 " ), but

> their arm span

> is usually shorter (I have

> a normal arm span).

>

> I have been reading comments from others about DIM.

> What does DIM stand for? If I went into a

> health/vitamin store and asked for DIM, would they

> know what I wanted? What is 6-OXO, is it similar to

> DIM?

>

> Just today I went and had blood work done to test both

> my E2 and DHT levels. To my knowledge my E2 has never

> been taken. I once asked my Endo Doc, to measure my

> E2 level and he informed me that on a man they don't

> know what the level should be (this was about five

> years ago). Just recently I was talking with another

> Doctor about bio-identical hormones, because I was

> concerned with taking injections as I didn't want the

> testosterone to attack my liver. This Doctor

> suggested that I have my Estradiol and

> Dihydrotestosterone tested, which is why I had the

> blood work done. I work out at the gym three times a

> week for the last two years with a personal trainer

> and I can't seem to lose fat around my pecs. I was

> thinking that this maybe do to excess E2 in my pec

> area. I currently take a 1 ml (200 mg) injection once

> every two weeks of delatestryl. My current level of

> testosterone is 550.

>

> What does the group know about Bio-identical hormones?

> It is my understanding the a bio-identical hormone,

> is as close to the hormones that your body makes that

> the pharmacutical companies cannot patent the

> hormones, so therefore they cannot make any money, so

> they don't sell the hormones. I believe that only a

> compound pharmacist can mix up the hormones. I was

> thinking that I could possibly take some bio-identical

> hormones along with my testosterone and maybe reduce

> my dosage of delatestryl.

>

> Feel free to comment on any or all of the above, as I

> am seeking as much information as possible.

>

> Thanks,

> Mark

>

> __________________________________________________

>

December 29, 2004

Hi Mark and Welcome. I feel you can do better by getting your shots every week

100 mgs. This will make you feel better no ups and downs. And if your E2 is

high getting your shots this way will stop the conversion into E2. DIM is an

over the counter supplement used to bring down high E2. Here is a link.

http://www.dimfaq.com/index.htm

I am using Indolplex with DIM and this brand we know works.

http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html

I started on it after using Arimidex a scrip from my Dr. and found it to be to

strong for me I have gone to low taking 1/4 of a one mg. pill every 6 days. It

worked dam good to get me down but to stay there it is to strong. If your E2 is

high and you get it down you will feel a lot better as for the work outs I can't

say but what is more important how you feel or how you look. High E2 gave me

ED, trouble reaching and orgasm, pain in my prostate, bladder infections, up

peeing all night and skin rash's. This can be why you can't use the gel or

patch. I would break out in a bad rash going in to a spa or taking a hot

shower. I could not eat shrimp I would get hives. How is your sex life mine

was bad for over 15 yrs. and now I am like I was 20 again. You need to go to

the links and files section here at the home page and learn as much as you can

about this so you know you are getting the best treatment you can get.

Phil

luverboy <luverb0y2@...> wrote:

Hi All,

I am 38 years old and I was diagnosed with

Hypogonadism 7 years ago

and Klinefelter's

Syndrome about 5 years ago. When I was 31 I was

working out with a

personal trainer and

I was having trouble losing weight and gaining muscle

mass, he

suggested that I have my

testosterone checked and when I did at that time it

was 88. My PCP

re-checked it,

because they thought the results were wrong, but as

it turns out they

were correct. They

asked me if I was taking steriods and I replied that

I wasn't and

that I really don't like to

take shots nor I am taking any other drugs. They

waited a few months

and retested me

and the level had dropped to 63, they then sent me

to an

Endocrinologist. He diagnosed

me with Hypogonadism and he began to run extensive

tests on me,

however everything

came up negative for me, so I was still classed as

having

Hypogonadism. He retested my

Testosterone level and it was now at 41, so he gave

me one of the two

possible patches to

try. I filled the prescription and tried it for

five days, as it

turns out I was allergic to this

patch. Then I tried the other patch with the same

results. He said

that the pill was

dangerous and it would attack my liver, so he

suggested injections,

but I was skeptical as I

was allergic to both patches and I didn't want to

have an allergic

reaction to an injection,

so I self referred myself to an Allergist and he

tested me with the

Testosterone and I had

no allergic reaction. Low and behold me who doesn't

like needles, I

would now need to

get injections every 2 weeks for life. A year or two

after I started the injections, the endo doc gave me a

prescription for androgel and tried this and I

discovered that I was allergic to this form of

testosterone, too.

The injections definitely helped with my mood

swings, but I was still

tired during the day

with no energy increase. So I cannot remember

(actually I self

referred myself because of

an excess snoring problem that I had) how or why I

went to have a

sleep study done, but it

turns out that I also have sleep apnea. Once I got

this under

control, I had an abundance

of energy.

Now the last test that the Endo tested me for was

Klinefelter's

Syndrome and as it turns

out that was what I have been diagnosed with (47,

XXY). I asked the

Doc why he didn't

check this sooner and he said that I didn't have the

symptoms of KS.

He said that normally

people that have KS are tall (which I am 6' 4 " ), but

their arm span

is usually shorter (I have

a normal arm span).

I have been reading comments from others about DIM.

What does DIM stand for? If I went into a

health/vitamin store and asked for DIM, would they

know what I wanted? What is 6-OXO, is it similar to

DIM?

Just today I went and had blood work done to test both

my E2 and DHT levels. To my knowledge my E2 has never

been taken. I once asked my Endo Doc, to measure my

E2 level and he informed me that on a man they don't

know what the level should be (this was about five

years ago). Just recently I was talking with another

Doctor about bio-identical hormones, because I was

concerned with taking injections as I didn't want the

testosterone to attack my liver. This Doctor

suggested that I have my Estradiol and

Dihydrotestosterone tested, which is why I had the

blood work done. I work out at the gym three times a

week for the last two years with a personal trainer

and I can't seem to lose fat around my pecs. I was

thinking that this maybe do to excess E2 in my pec

area. I currently take a 1 ml (200 mg) injection once

every two weeks of delatestryl. My current level of

testosterone is 550.

What does the group know about Bio-identical hormones?

It is my understanding the a bio-identical hormone,

is as close to the hormones that your body makes that

the pharmacutical companies cannot patent the

hormones, so therefore they cannot make any money, so

they don't sell the hormones. I believe that only a

compound pharmacist can mix up the hormones. I was

thinking that I could possibly take some bio-identical

hormones along with my testosterone and maybe reduce

my dosage of delatestryl.

Feel free to comment on any or all of the above, as I

am seeking as much information as possible.

Thanks,

Mark

__________________________________________________

December 30, 2004

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the info, I still have to goto the DIM link. I am

understanding this right that DIM is similar (in a natural sense) to

Arimidex? I haven't received my results from the blood tests yet,

but I think my E2 is elevated. I don't have ED any more since I

started taking the injections. I can get an erection, but there are

times that its just not rock hard. In fact, I have talked to both my

Urologist and my Endocrinologist about my erections and neither one

of them made mention about checking my estrogen levels. I didn't

realize that elevated E2 can lead to ED.

Thanks,

Mark

--- philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote:

> Hi Mark and Welcome. I feel you can do better by getting your

> shots every week 100 mgs. This will make you feel better no ups

> and downs. And if your E2 is high getting your shots this way will

> stop the conversion into E2. DIM is an over the counter supplement

> used to bring down high E2. Here is a link.

> http://www.dimfaq.com/index.htm

> I am using Indolplex with DIM and this brand we know works.

> http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html

> I started on it after using Arimidex a scrip from my Dr. and found

> it to be to strong for me I have gone to low taking 1/4 of a one

> mg. pill every 6 days. It worked dam good to get me down but to

> stay there it is to strong. If your E2 is high and you get it down

> you will feel a lot better as for the work outs I can't say but

> what is more important how you feel or how you look. High E2 gave

> me ED, trouble reaching and orgasm, pain in my prostate, bladder

> infections, up peeing all night and skin rash's. This can be why

> you can't use the gel or patch. I would break out in a bad rash

> going in to a spa or taking a hot shower. I could not eat shrimp I

> would get hives. How is your sex life mine was bad for over 15

> yrs. and now I am like I was 20 again. You need to go to the links

> and files section here at the home page and learn as much as you

> can about this so you know you are getting the best treatment you

> can get.

> Phil

>

> luverboy <luverb0y2@...> wrote:

>

> Hi All,

>

> I am 38 years old and I was diagnosed with

> Hypogonadism 7 years ago

> and Klinefelter's

> Syndrome about 5 years ago. When I was 31 I was

> working out with a

> personal trainer and

> I was having trouble losing weight and gaining muscle

> mass, he

> suggested that I have my

> testosterone checked and when I did at that time it

> was 88. My PCP

> re-checked it,

> because they thought the results were wrong, but as

> it turns out they

> were correct. They

> asked me if I was taking steriods and I replied that

> I wasn't and

> that I really don't like to

> take shots nor I am taking any other drugs. They

> waited a few months

> and retested me

> and the level had dropped to 63, they then sent me

> to an

> Endocrinologist. He diagnosed

> me with Hypogonadism and he began to run extensive

> tests on me,

> however everything

> came up negative for me, so I was still classed as

> having

> Hypogonadism. He retested my

> Testosterone level and it was now at 41, so he gave

> me one of the two

> possible patches to

> try. I filled the prescription and tried it for

> five days, as it

> turns out I was allergic to this

> patch. Then I tried the other patch with the same

> results. He said

> that the pill was

> dangerous and it would attack my liver, so he

> suggested injections,

> but I was skeptical as I

> was allergic to both patches and I didn't want to

> have an allergic

> reaction to an injection,

> so I self referred myself to an Allergist and he

> tested me with the

> Testosterone and I had

> no allergic reaction. Low and behold me who doesn't

> like needles, I

> would now need to

> get injections every 2 weeks for life. A year or two

> after I started the injections, the endo doc gave me a

> prescription for androgel and tried this and I

> discovered that I was allergic to this form of

> testosterone, too.

>

> The injections definitely helped with my mood

> swings, but I was still

> tired during the day

> with no energy increase. So I cannot remember

> (actually I self

> referred myself because of

> an excess snoring problem that I had) how or why I

> went to have a

> sleep study done, but it

> turns out that I also have sleep apnea. Once I got

> this under

> control, I had an abundance

> of energy.

>

> Now the last test that the Endo tested me for was

> Klinefelter's

> Syndrome and as it turns

> out that was what I have been diagnosed with (47,

> XXY). I asked the

> Doc why he didn't

> check this sooner and he said that I didn't have the

> symptoms of KS.

> He said that normally

> people that have KS are tall (which I am 6' 4 " ), but

> their arm span

> is usually shorter (I have

> a normal arm span).

>

> I have been reading comments from others about DIM.

> What does DIM stand for? If I went into a

> health/vitamin store and asked for DIM, would they

> know what I wanted? What is 6-OXO, is it similar to

> DIM?

>

> Just today I went and had blood work done to test both

> my E2 and DHT levels. To my knowledge my E2 has never

> been taken. I once asked my Endo Doc, to measure my

> E2 level and he informed me that on a man they don't

> know what the level should be (this was about five

> years ago). Just recently I was talking with another

> Doctor about bio-identical hormones, because I was

> concerned with taking injections as I didn't want the

> testosterone to attack my liver. This Doctor

> suggested that I have my Estradiol and

> Dihydrotestosterone tested, which is why I had the

> blood work done. I work out at the gym three times a

> week for the last two years with a personal trainer

> and I can't seem to lose fat around my pecs. I was

> thinking that this maybe do to excess E2 in my pec

> area. I currently take a 1 ml (200 mg) injection once

> every two weeks of delatestryl. My current level of

> testosterone is 550.

>

> What does the group know about Bio-identical hormones?

> It is my understanding the a bio-identical hormone,

> is as close to the hormones that your body makes that

> the pharmacutical companies cannot patent the

> hormones, so therefore they cannot make any money, so

> they don't sell the hormones. I believe that only a

> compound pharmacist can mix up the hormones. I was

> thinking that I could possibly take some bio-identical

> hormones along with my testosterone and maybe reduce

> my dosage of delatestryl.

>

> Feel free to comment on any or all of the above, as I

> am seeking as much information as possible.

>

> Thanks,

> Mark

>

> __________________________________________________

>

December 30, 2004

Mark,

See Z's excellent post on DIM vs. Arimidex, message # 20688 (use the

message # search box located below the search archive box) or go to:

/message/20688

Failure to monitor and manage E2 is one of the biggest causes of poor TRT

results.

Bruce

> >

> > Hi All,

> >

> > I am 38 years old and I was diagnosed with

> > Hypogonadism 7 years ago

> > and Klinefelter's

> > Syndrome about 5 years ago. When I was 31 I was

> > working out with a

> > personal trainer and

> > I was having trouble losing weight and gaining muscle

> > mass, he

> > suggested that I have my

> > testosterone checked and when I did at that time it

> > was 88. My PCP

> > re-checked it,

> > because they thought the results were wrong, but as

> > it turns out they

> > were correct. They

> > asked me if I was taking steriods and I replied that

> > I wasn't and

> > that I really don't like to

> > take shots nor I am taking any other drugs. They

> > waited a few months

> > and retested me

> > and the level had dropped to 63, they then sent me

> > to an

> > Endocrinologist. He diagnosed

> > me with Hypogonadism and he began to run extensive

> > tests on me,

> > however everything

> > came up negative for me, so I was still classed as

> > having

> > Hypogonadism. He retested my

> > Testosterone level and it was now at 41, so he gave

> > me one of the two

> > possible patches to

> > try. I filled the prescription and tried it for

> > five days, as it

> > turns out I was allergic to this

> > patch. Then I tried the other patch with the same

> > results. He said

> > that the pill was

> > dangerous and it would attack my liver, so he

> > suggested injections,

> > but I was skeptical as I

> > was allergic to both patches and I didn't want to

> > have an allergic

> > reaction to an injection,

> > so I self referred myself to an Allergist and he

> > tested me with the

> > Testosterone and I had

> > no allergic reaction. Low and behold me who doesn't

> > like needles, I

> > would now need to

> > get injections every 2 weeks for life. A year or two

> > after I started the injections, the endo doc gave me a

> > prescription for androgel and tried this and I

> > discovered that I was allergic to this form of

> > testosterone, too.

> >

> > The injections definitely helped with my mood

> > swings, but I was still

> > tired during the day

> > with no energy increase. So I cannot remember

> > (actually I self

> > referred myself because of

> > an excess snoring problem that I had) how or why I

> > went to have a

> > sleep study done, but it

> > turns out that I also have sleep apnea. Once I got

> > this under

> > control, I had an abundance

> > of energy.

> >

> > Now the last test that the Endo tested me for was

> > Klinefelter's

> > Syndrome and as it turns

> > out that was what I have been diagnosed with (47,

> > XXY). I asked the

> > Doc why he didn't

> > check this sooner and he said that I didn't have the

> > symptoms of KS.

> > He said that normally

> > people that have KS are tall (which I am 6' 4 " ), but

> > their arm span

> > is usually shorter (I have

> > a normal arm span).

> >

> > I have been reading comments from others about DIM.

> > What does DIM stand for? If I went into a

> > health/vitamin store and asked for DIM, would they

> > know what I wanted? What is 6-OXO, is it similar to

> > DIM?

> >

> > Just today I went and had blood work done to test both

> > my E2 and DHT levels. To my knowledge my E2 has never

> > been taken. I once asked my Endo Doc, to measure my

> > E2 level and he informed me that on a man they don't

> > know what the level should be (this was about five

> > years ago). Just recently I was talking with another

> > Doctor about bio-identical hormones, because I was

> > concerned with taking injections as I didn't want the

> > testosterone to attack my liver. This Doctor

> > suggested that I have my Estradiol and

> > Dihydrotestosterone tested, which is why I had the

> > blood work done. I work out at the gym three times a

> > week for the last two years with a personal trainer

> > and I can't seem to lose fat around my pecs. I was

> > thinking that this maybe do to excess E2 in my pec

> > area. I currently take a 1 ml (200 mg) injection once

> > every two weeks of delatestryl. My current level of

> > testosterone is 550.

> >

> > What does the group know about Bio-identical hormones?

> > It is my understanding the a bio-identical hormone,

> > is as close to the hormones that your body makes that

> > the pharmacutical companies cannot patent the

> > hormones, so therefore they cannot make any money, so

> > they don't sell the hormones. I believe that only a

> > compound pharmacist can mix up the hormones. I was

> > thinking that I could possibly take some bio-identical

> > hormones along with my testosterone and maybe reduce

> > my dosage of delatestryl.

> >

> > Feel free to comment on any or all of the above, as I

> > am seeking as much information as possible.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Mark

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

December 30, 2004

Mark,

Thanks for briefing us on your situation. Hopefully some of the

advice you get will help you. And to be honest, your situation

provides the rest of us with more insight into causes and remedy for

hypogonadism.

Others have already mentioned it, but I would like to reaffirm that

weekly injections are superior to the biweekly injections that you

currently receive. The official directions for testosterone cypionate

(in the USA) state a dosage of 50mg-400mg every 2-4 weeks. Hopefully,

those directions will eventually be changed because such a regimen is

not appropriate for the best health of the patient. The half-life of

testosterone cypionate is typically 5-6 days. With dosing at larger

intervals such as 2-4 weeks, the patient will generally go back and

forth between excessively high serum testosterone and excessively low

serum testosterone. DHT and E2 will move up and down as well, since

they are created from the testosterone.

Note: many of us use testosterone cypionate and I noticed that you use

Delatestryl (testosterone enanthate). Testosterone cypionate is

typically used in the USA (and maybe Canada; I'm not sure) and

testosterone enanthate is more common in the rest of the world. Their

half-lives and potency are very similar, so they can effectively

interchangeable.

The skin problems that you have with the testosterone patches are very

common. This probably contributes significantly to most patients

favoring treatments such as Androgel over the patches. Apparently,

you have issues with the Androgel as well, which certainly isn't

unheard of.

Are you now giving yourself your own injections or do you go into a

physician's office for that?

In reference to the E2 (estradiol) lab test, there is often confusion

because when doctors request an estradiol test, they get the following:

http://www.labcorp.com/datasets/labcorp/html/chapter/mono/ri003600.htm

Which is only good for testing the fertility of women. It is

meaningless for males. Instead, the doctor should specify " Estradiol,

Sensative " , so that they get the following test instead:

http://www.labcorp.com/datasets/labcorp/html/chapter/mono/sr012000.htm

You might notice that the " Estradiol, Sensative " test provides more

specific ranges for both males and females.

When doing TRT, estradiol should be controlled if necessary so that it

is near middle of the range for normal. You do not want to bring it

down too low, because that has health consequences as well.

Arimidex (anastrozole) and Femara (letrozole) are prescription

" aromatase inhibitors. " They are relatively new medications. The

aromatase enzyme is what converts the androgens (e.g. testosterone)

into the estrogens (e.g. estradiol). Arimidex is very powerful, so

for men, dosages are often something like " one quarter tablet every 2

days. " The pills are already very tiny and so breaking them up can be

a bit of a challenge from what I hear. Arimidex is actually indicated

for postmenopausal women with cancer. The standard dosing aims to

bring the estradiol down to zero. That's why they don't (yet) have

better dosed tablets for men.

DIM is an effective option to control estradiol. Personally, I would

prefer Arimidex because it has gone through the substantial clinical

testing and evaluation that is required of new prescription

medications. Also, physicians tend to have more experience

controlling E2 with Arimidex than they do with other medications such

as DIM. One things of mention is cost: Arimidex typically costs about

$7.50 per 1mg tablet.

The testosterone in such medications as Androgel is identical to that

which is produced by your body. However, testosterone cypionate and

testosterone enanthate are not. They have esters attached. As long

as those esters are attached, the testosterone is inactive.

Eventually, your liver will remove the esters from the molecule and

the molecule eventually becomes a standard testosterone molecule that

is identical to the testosterone that your body should normally

produce. This was done on purpose so that not all of the testosterone

hits your blood at once.

So yes, this does put a little bit of work on your liver. However, I

have heard of exactly zero instances of liver damage from TRT

appropriate dosages of testosterone cypionate or testosterone

enanthate. But, if you are concerned, then that is all the more

reason to do the weekly injections rather than biweekly. If you are

still concerned about liver damage, then you can have bloodwork done

that indirectly detects liver damage.

Please post the lab results from your latest bloodwork when you get

them back. Also, be sure to include the reference ranges. Different

labs have different sensitivities, so the reference ranges are

important in determining your situation.

--mranak

>

> Hi All,

>

> I am 38 years old and I was diagnosed with

> Hypogonadism 7 years ago

> and Klinefelter's

> Syndrome about 5 years ago. When I was 31 I was

> working out with a

> personal trainer and

> I was having trouble losing weight and gaining muscle

> mass, he

> suggested that I have my

> testosterone checked and when I did at that time it

> was 88. My PCP

> re-checked it,

> because they thought the results were wrong, but as

> it turns out they

> were correct. They

> asked me if I was taking steriods and I replied that

> I wasn't and

> that I really don't like to

> take shots nor I am taking any other drugs. They

> waited a few months

> and retested me

> and the level had dropped to 63, they then sent me

> to an

> Endocrinologist. He diagnosed

> me with Hypogonadism and he began to run extensive

> tests on me,

> however everything

> came up negative for me, so I was still classed as

> having

> Hypogonadism. He retested my

> Testosterone level and it was now at 41, so he gave

> me one of the two

> possible patches to

> try. I filled the prescription and tried it for

> five days, as it

> turns out I was allergic to this

> patch. Then I tried the other patch with the same

> results. He said

> that the pill was

> dangerous and it would attack my liver, so he

> suggested injections,

> but I was skeptical as I

> was allergic to both patches and I didn't want to

> have an allergic

> reaction to an injection,

> so I self referred myself to an Allergist and he

> tested me with the

> Testosterone and I had

> no allergic reaction. Low and behold me who doesn't

> like needles, I

> would now need to

> get injections every 2 weeks for life. A year or two

> after I started the injections, the endo doc gave me a

> prescription for androgel and tried this and I

> discovered that I was allergic to this form of

> testosterone, too.

>

> The injections definitely helped with my mood

> swings, but I was still

> tired during the day

> with no energy increase. So I cannot remember

> (actually I self

> referred myself because of

> an excess snoring problem that I had) how or why I

> went to have a

> sleep study done, but it

> turns out that I also have sleep apnea. Once I got

> this under

> control, I had an abundance

> of energy.

>

> Now the last test that the Endo tested me for was

> Klinefelter's

> Syndrome and as it turns

> out that was what I have been diagnosed with (47,

> XXY). I asked the

> Doc why he didn't

> check this sooner and he said that I didn't have the

> symptoms of KS.

> He said that normally

> people that have KS are tall (which I am 6' 4 " ), but

> their arm span

> is usually shorter (I have

> a normal arm span).

>

> I have been reading comments from others about DIM.

> What does DIM stand for? If I went into a

> health/vitamin store and asked for DIM, would they

> know what I wanted? What is 6-OXO, is it similar to

> DIM?

>

> Just today I went and had blood work done to test both

> my E2 and DHT levels. To my knowledge my E2 has never

> been taken. I once asked my Endo Doc, to measure my

> E2 level and he informed me that on a man they don't

> know what the level should be (this was about five

> years ago). Just recently I was talking with another

> Doctor about bio-identical hormones, because I was

> concerned with taking injections as I didn't want the

> testosterone to attack my liver. This Doctor

> suggested that I have my Estradiol and

> Dihydrotestosterone tested, which is why I had the

> blood work done. I work out at the gym three times a

> week for the last two years with a personal trainer

> and I can't seem to lose fat around my pecs. I was

> thinking that this maybe do to excess E2 in my pec

> area. I currently take a 1 ml (200 mg) injection once

> every two weeks of delatestryl. My current level of

> testosterone is 550.

>

> What does the group know about Bio-identical hormones?

> It is my understanding the a bio-identical hormone,

> is as close to the hormones that your body makes that

> the pharmacutical companies cannot patent the

> hormones, so therefore they cannot make any money, so

> they don't sell the hormones. I believe that only a

> compound pharmacist can mix up the hormones. I was

> thinking that I could possibly take some bio-identical

> hormones along with my testosterone and maybe reduce

> my dosage of delatestryl.

>

> Feel free to comment on any or all of the above, as I

> am seeking as much information as possible.

>

> Thanks,

> Mark

>

> __________________________________________________

>

December 30, 2004

> How do they put the pellets into the body?

It is a surgical procedure.

> Do you have to go in as an out patient every 4 mos?

Yes

> Is this a costly procedure?

Yes

Testosterone pellets work for some patients, but I (personally) would

not recommend then unless you have exhausted all other resonable

treatments.

--mranak

>

> Mark

> --- ernestnolan <emiles@s...> wrote:

>

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> > This is near criminal what has happened to you. To bad it is

> > typical

> > of patients with hormone problems.

> >

> > My endocrinologist has a web site and will answer questions.

> >

> > http://www.members.aol.com/gambr999/

> >

> > Dr. Gamberll, Augusta, GA has been treating couples for infertility

> > an

> > men for andropause for decades, long before the pharmceutical

> > companies brought their products to market and started telling

> > doctors

> > about hormones. Hollywood stars used to fly in every 4 months for

> > their pellets. Bob Hope was one mentioned.

> >

> > Most doctors are new to hormone therapy and will not provide enough

> > hormone to bring you to the high normal range of 800-1000 where you

> > can really get the benefit because of fear and no experience. The

> > pharmaceutical reps provide their information instead of formal

> > training.

> >

> > Your alergic reaction is probably due to the carrier they mix with

> > the

> > testosterone to get it thru the skin.

> >

> > As another suggested, hormone pellets are bio-identical hormones

> > and

> > will dissolve under the skin in 4 months requiring another visit at

> > that time. It is rare because of the slow release of the hormone

> > that

> > your body will react and start converting t to E2 which causes lots

> > of

> > trouble I hear when using the patch and even injections. Spurts of

> > hormone cause the body to react.

> >

> > ernestnolan

> >

> > >

> > > Hi All,

> > >

> > > I am 38 years old and I was diagnosed with

> > > Hypogonadism 7 years ago

> > > and Klinefelter's

> > > Syndrome about 5 years ago. When I was 31 I was

> > > working out with a

> > > personal trainer and

> > > I was having trouble losing weight and gaining muscle

> > > mass, he

> > > suggested that I have my

> > > testosterone checked and when I did at that time it

> > > was 88. My PCP

> > > re-checked it,

> > > because they thought the results were wrong, but as

> > > it turns out they

> > > were correct. They

> > > asked me if I was taking steriods and I replied that

> > > I wasn't and

> > > that I really don't like to

> > > take shots nor I am taking any other drugs. They

> > > waited a few months

> > > and retested me

> > > and the level had dropped to 63, they then sent me

> > > to an

> > > Endocrinologist. He diagnosed

> > > me with Hypogonadism and he began to run extensive

> > > tests on me,

> > > however everything

> > > came up negative for me, so I was still classed as

> > > having

> > > Hypogonadism. He retested my

> > > Testosterone level and it was now at 41, so he gave

> > > me one of the two

> > > possible patches to

> > > try. I filled the prescription and tried it for

> > > five days, as it

> > > turns out I was allergic to this

> > > patch. Then I tried the other patch with the same

> > > results. He said

> > > that the pill was

> > > dangerous and it would attack my liver, so he

> > > suggested injections,

> > > but I was skeptical as I

> > > was allergic to both patches and I didn't want to

> > > have an allergic

> > > reaction to an injection,

> > > so I self referred myself to an Allergist and he

> > > tested me with the

> > > Testosterone and I had

> > > no allergic reaction. Low and behold me who doesn't

> > > like needles, I

> > > would now need to

> > > get injections every 2 weeks for life. A year or two

> > > after I started the injections, the endo doc gave me a

> > > prescription for androgel and tried this and I

> > > discovered that I was allergic to this form of

> > > testosterone, too.

> > >

> > > The injections definitely helped with my mood

> > > swings, but I was still

> > > tired during the day

> > > with no energy increase. So I cannot remember

> > > (actually I self

> > > referred myself because of

> > > an excess snoring problem that I had) how or why I

> > > went to have a

> > > sleep study done, but it

> > > turns out that I also have sleep apnea. Once I got

> > > this under

> > > control, I had an abundance

> > > of energy.

> > >

> > > Now the last test that the Endo tested me for was

> > > Klinefelter's

> > > Syndrome and as it turns

> > > out that was what I have been diagnosed with (47,

> > > XXY). I asked the

> > > Doc why he didn't

> > > check this sooner and he said that I didn't have the

> > > symptoms of KS.

> > > He said that normally

> > > people that have KS are tall (which I am 6' 4 " ), but

> > > their arm span

> > > is usually shorter (I have

> > > a normal arm span).

> > >

> > > I have been reading comments from others about DIM.

> > > What does DIM stand for? If I went into a

> > > health/vitamin store and asked for DIM, would they

> > > know what I wanted? What is 6-OXO, is it similar to

> > > DIM?

> > >

> > > Just today I went and had blood work done to test both

> > > my E2 and DHT levels. To my knowledge my E2 has never

> > > been taken. I once asked my Endo Doc, to measure my

> > > E2 level and he informed me that on a man they don't

> > > know what the level should be (this was about five

> > > years ago). Just recently I was talking with another

> > > Doctor about bio-identical hormones, because I was

> > > concerned with taking injections as I didn't want the

> > > testosterone to attack my liver. This Doctor

> > > suggested that I have my Estradiol and

> > > Dihydrotestosterone tested, which is why I had the

> > > blood work done. I work out at the gym three times a

> > > week for the last two years with a personal trainer

> > > and I can't seem to lose fat around my pecs. I was

> > > thinking that this maybe do to excess E2 in my pec

> > > area. I currently take a 1 ml (200 mg) injection once

> > > every two weeks of delatestryl. My current level of

> > > testosterone is 550.

> > >

> > > What does the group know about Bio-identical hormones?

> > > It is my understanding the a bio-identical hormone,

> > > is as close to the hormones that your body makes that

> > > the pharmacutical companies cannot patent the

> > > hormones, so therefore they cannot make any money, so

> > > they don't sell the hormones. I believe that only a

> > > compound pharmacist can mix up the hormones. I was

> > > thinking that I could possibly take some bio-identical

> > > hormones along with my testosterone and maybe reduce

> > > my dosage of delatestryl.

> > >

> > > Feel free to comment on any or all of the above, as I

> > > am seeking as much information as possible.

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > > Mark

> > >

> > > __________________________________________________

> > >

December 30, 2004

Mark for the last 15 yrs. I had bad ED, could not reach an orgasm and much more.

After finding this group and reading about high E2 it took me a long time to get

my Dr. to test it. After he did I was very high. Being this high I would try

Viagra and it would not work. I tryed to get the E2 down using Zinc, Soy and

DIM Plus. No luck so after a time of fighting with my Dr. he gave me Arimidex

and it brought my E2 down to normal my ED got 80% better and with the help of

Cialis 20 mgs. every 72 hrs. I get hard as a rock even in my sleep NE's. My

problems reaching an orgasm are gone. But the Arimidex is to strong for me I

was down to a 1/4 of a one mg. pill every 6 days and still going to low. The

Indolplex with DIM works a different way then Arimidex and I feel better using

it then the Arimidex. I am out of Cialis and can't get more untill next year

the 15th so now I will see what happens. I think my wife is happy I am out.

But I feel I don't need it anymore.