Re: Testosterone & Estrogen

June 12, 2004

> Hi everyone,

>

> I've had quite a bit of difficulty trying to find a happy level of

> Testosterone for me - I've been through pellets at various dosages,

> Sustanon 100 and 250 for varying lengths of time, and also Androgel,

> again for varying lengths of time and dosages.

>

> I do better on the higher dosages of Testosterone, but my endo is

> unwilling to continue to prescribe large amounts of testosterone, as

> he's worried about the effects of the high levels of estrogen.

>

> Nor will he prescribe Arimidex: his argument is that the only

> Estrogen in my system is what my body converts from Testosterone, so

> what's the point of using a high level of testosterone, if it's only

> going to be converted to Estrogen, which you then have to lower with

> Arimidex... why not just use less Testosterone in the first place?

>

> Does anyone have any ideas? Perhaps a study or two?

-------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with your doctor. Any more T in my body that is not needed

to feel good is converted to estrogen, regardless of the numerical

level of a test resulst. I seem to be able to feel pretty good and

control water weight gain from estrogen conversion on about 10g a day.

Yes, I probably need more and do in fact feel even better, stronger,

on more T but that is a fine line, and if I do more my tits start to

swell and nipples get hard and I gain a quick 6 pounds.

However, I disagree with your doctor about the arimidex, it has saved

my a couple times now from the permanent effects of too much estrogen

when I have overdone T. Without it available, I would have had to

stop all T use for a while and wait form the estrogen to go down, and

feel like crap for that 10 day period or so.

norton

June 12, 2004

JB,

Testosterone supplementation without control of aromatase

conversion to estrogen is doomed to fail. Your endo will have to

increase his knowledge if he wants to effectively treat

hypogonadism.

One study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=

PubMed & list_uids=11792932 & dopt=Abstract

Perhaps your doctor would be willing to read " The Testosterone

Syndrome " by endocrinologist Eugene Shippen. He doesn't have

to agree with it, but shouldn't dismiss it without at least reading

it. It's short on published research but long on clinical results. Dr.

Shippen became frustrated with poor results of " standard " TRT,

studied the problems, then started getting good results.

Estrogen management (including aromatase inhibitors like

Arimidex) is one of the biggest factors in succesfully treating his

patients.

Good luck,

Bruce

> Hi everyone,

>

> I've had quite a bit of difficulty trying to find a happy level of

> Testosterone for me - I've been through pellets at various

dosages,

> Sustanon 100 and 250 for varying lengths of time, and also

Androgel,

> again for varying lengths of time and dosages.

>

> I do better on the higher dosages of Testosterone, but my endo

is

> unwilling to continue to prescribe large amounts of

testosterone, as

> he's worried about the effects of the high levels of estrogen.

>

> Nor will he prescribe Arimidex: his argument is that the only

> Estrogen in my system is what my body converts from

Testosterone, so

> what's the point of using a high level of testosterone, if it's only

> going to be converted to Estrogen, which you then have to

lower with

> Arimidex... why not just use less Testosterone in the first

place?

>

> Does anyone have any ideas? Perhaps a study or two?

>

> Thanks,

>

> -JB

June 12, 2004

Hi,

The endocrinologist that will not prescribe suffiecient T to provide

relief is not uncommmon. He may be reading the info on the box of

TESTOPEL pellets which gives the wrong information for the correct dosage.

This is the dosage provided by Dr. Gambrell of Augusta GA who has been

treating andropause for decades.

Subract 30 from the total weight, then for every 10 pounds remaining

you should get a 75mg pellet of testosterone.

I weigh more than 230 pounds but he will only give me the maximum of

20 pellets for a man providing me with 1500mg which lasts for 4 months

and gives me 12.5mg/day. This is intended to raise my T level to

between 700 and 900 to give me the benefit of TRT I should be receiving.

You will find you can not argue and win with your doctor. He will not

believe Dr. Gambrell even if he calls probably:

http://www.members.aol.com/gambr999/

It is surprising how much bad infromation is out there on hormone therapy.

ernestnolan

> Hi everyone,

>

> I've had quite a bit of difficulty trying to find a happy level of

> Testosterone for me - I've been through pellets at various dosages,

> Sustanon 100 and 250 for varying lengths of time, and also Androgel,

> again for varying lengths of time and dosages.

>

> I do better on the higher dosages of Testosterone, but my endo is

> unwilling to continue to prescribe large amounts of testosterone, as

> he's worried about the effects of the high levels of estrogen.

>

> Nor will he prescribe Arimidex: his argument is that the only

> Estrogen in my system is what my body converts from Testosterone, so

> what's the point of using a high level of testosterone, if it's only

> going to be converted to Estrogen, which you then have to lower with

> Arimidex... why not just use less Testosterone in the first place?

>

> Does anyone have any ideas? Perhaps a study or two?

>

> Thanks,

>

> -JB

June 12, 2004

Hi,

There is rarely any trouble with E rising as the constant rate of

dosage does not cause the body to react by converting T to E. Never

had to take anything for high E.

Lack of experience is too common a problem in those new to hormone

therapy. They obtain bad info from the pharmaceutical reps. about too

high a dosage being a problem to make their lawyers feel good.

ernestnolan

> Hi everyone,

>

> I've had quite a bit of difficulty trying to find a happy level of

> Testosterone for me - I've been through pellets at various dosages,

> Sustanon 100 and 250 for varying lengths of time, and also Androgel,

> again for varying lengths of time and dosages.

>

> I do better on the higher dosages of Testosterone, but my endo is

> unwilling to continue to prescribe large amounts of testosterone, as

> he's worried about the effects of the high levels of estrogen.

>

> Nor will he prescribe Arimidex: his argument is that the only

> Estrogen in my system is what my body converts from Testosterone, so

> what's the point of using a high level of testosterone, if it's only

> going to be converted to Estrogen, which you then have to lower with

> Arimidex... why not just use less Testosterone in the first place?

>

> Does anyone have any ideas? Perhaps a study or two?

>

> Thanks,

>

> -JB

June 12, 2004

Hi JB show him these links.

http://www.medibolics.com/ArimidexBoostsTestosterone.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=15001605 & itool=iconabstr

Dr.'s that are up todate on this are finding that if they treat the high E2 the

T comes up with out going on TRT. So what you Dr. is saying is old school you

have to educate him.

Phil

johnnyb_coolhotmailcom <johnnyb_cool@...> wrote:

Hi everyone,

I've had quite a bit of difficulty trying to find a happy level of

Testosterone for me - I've been through pellets at various dosages,

Sustanon 100 and 250 for varying lengths of time, and also Androgel,

again for varying lengths of time and dosages.

I do better on the higher dosages of Testosterone, but my endo is

unwilling to continue to prescribe large amounts of testosterone, as

he's worried about the effects of the high levels of estrogen.

Nor will he prescribe Arimidex: his argument is that the only

Estrogen in my system is what my body converts from Testosterone, so

what's the point of using a high level of testosterone, if it's only

going to be converted to Estrogen, which you then have to lower with

Arimidex... why not just use less Testosterone in the first place?

Does anyone have any ideas? Perhaps a study or two?

Thanks,

-JB

June 12, 2004

ernestnolan we all are not the same a lot of older men feeling bad are finding

that they have high E2 and it is filling the cells that the T. goes to and they

have low T. Now the Dr.'s that are up on this treat the E2 and never have to

give time TRT.

Phil

ernestnolan <emiles@...> wrote:

Hi,

There is rarely any trouble with E rising as the constant rate of

dosage does not cause the body to react by converting T to E. Never

had to take anything for high E.

Lack of experience is too common a problem in those new to hormone

therapy. They obtain bad info from the pharmaceutical reps. about too

high a dosage being a problem to make their lawyers feel good.

ernestnolan

> Hi everyone,

>

> I've had quite a bit of difficulty trying to find a happy level of

> Testosterone for me - I've been through pellets at various dosages,

> Sustanon 100 and 250 for varying lengths of time, and also Androgel,

> again for varying lengths of time and dosages.

>

> I do better on the higher dosages of Testosterone, but my endo is

> unwilling to continue to prescribe large amounts of testosterone, as

> he's worried about the effects of the high levels of estrogen.

>

> Nor will he prescribe Arimidex: his argument is that the only

> Estrogen in my system is what my body converts from Testosterone, so

> what's the point of using a high level of testosterone, if it's only

> going to be converted to Estrogen, which you then have to lower with

> Arimidex... why not just use less Testosterone in the first place?

>

> Does anyone have any ideas? Perhaps a study or two?

>

> Thanks,

>

> -JB

June 12, 2004

Hi Ernest,

Did you or do you get your T and E tested? I wonder what

your levels were/ are with the pellets. 700 to 900 mg sounds

fantastic, how does Gambrel make sure you are in that zone?

WH

Re: Testosterone & Estrogen

: Hi,

:

: There is rarely any trouble with E rising as the constant rate of

: dosage does not cause the body to react by converting T to E. Never

: had to take anything for high E.

:

: Lack of experience is too common a problem in those new to hormone

: therapy. They obtain bad info from the pharmaceutical reps. about too

: high a dosage being a problem to make their lawyers feel good.

:

: ernestnolan

:

: > Hi everyone,

: >

: > I've had quite a bit of difficulty trying to find a happy level of

: > Testosterone for me - I've been through pellets at various dosages,

: > Sustanon 100 and 250 for varying lengths of time, and also Androgel,

: > again for varying lengths of time and dosages.

: >

: > I do better on the higher dosages of Testosterone, but my endo is

: > unwilling to continue to prescribe large amounts of testosterone, as

: > he's worried about the effects of the high levels of estrogen.

: >

: > Nor will he prescribe Arimidex: his argument is that the only

: > Estrogen in my system is what my body converts from Testosterone, so

: > what's the point of using a high level of testosterone, if it's only

: > going to be converted to Estrogen, which you then have to lower with

: > Arimidex... why not just use less Testosterone in the first place?

: >

: > Does anyone have any ideas? Perhaps a study or two?

: >

: > Thanks,

: >

: > -JB

:

June 12, 2004

Ah Yes :-) Tis the devil in me.

Phil

Bruce Harvey <bruceharvey@...> wrote:

Phil,

What was I thinking? Love your comparison.

Bruce

> > Hi everyone,

> >

> > I've had quite a bit of difficulty trying to find a happy level of

> > Testosterone for me - I've been through pellets at various

> dosages,

> > Sustanon 100 and 250 for varying lengths of time, and also

> Androgel,

> > again for varying lengths of time and dosages.

> >

> > I do better on the higher dosages of Testosterone, but my

endo

> is

> > unwilling to continue to prescribe large amounts of

> testosterone, as

> > he's worried about the effects of the high levels of estrogen.

> >

> > Nor will he prescribe Arimidex: his argument is that the only

> > Estrogen in my system is what my body converts from

> Testosterone, so

> > what's the point of using a high level of testosterone, if it's

only

> > going to be converted to Estrogen, which you then have to

> lower with

> > Arimidex... why not just use less Testosterone in the first

> place?

> >

> > Does anyone have any ideas? Perhaps a study or two?

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > -JB

>

June 12, 2004

Hi,

Help me understand..........

When Dr. Gambrell tests for the levels of the several types of

testosterone along with E, he usually finds a free T level problem and

no E level problems. Pellets help with no change in the E levels.

Yes we are all different.

Does your doctor say a high number of men with symptoms, really have

high E which is really because of conversion of T to E? Once the

conversion problem is dealt with, the T levels go back to a " normal

high level " ?

ernestnolan

> ernestnolan we all are not the same a lot of older men feeling bad

are finding that they have high E2 and it is filling the cells that

the T. goes to and they have low T. Now the Dr.'s that are up on this

treat the E2 and never have to give time TRT.

> Phil

>

June 12, 2004

Hi,

As I have been on the same dosage for more than 10 years, I have not

been tested for several years.

After the first year and a few years later, I was tested with no

increased levels of E by Dr. Sipi. After Dr. Sipi of N. Bergen, NJ

died, the wife and I started going to another trained by Dr.

Greenblatt of Georgia Medical College in Augusta, GA.

Dr. Gambrell, Augusta GA, recently said the levels of 700-900 T are an

average for those he has treated over the years and are typical of the

level high enough to feel the benefit.

Because some patients do not want even a simple surgical procedure to

install pellets under the skin, he also provides the patches, gels and

creams but the patient usually has trouble getting the level high

enough when applied to the skin. (Don't think he provides injections

of T.) I believe he has to monitored these patients for E level

changes, because the rate of dosage is not constant. Pellets do not

have to be monitored in his experience.

The test of the therapy is the repeatabilty. Does the patient get

enough satisfaction to continue the therapy. It is his experience that

25% to less than half for non pellets, but about 2/3 for the pellets.

ernestnolan

> : > Hi everyone,

> : >

> : > I've had quite a bit of difficulty trying to find a happy level of

> : > Testosterone for me - I've been through pellets at various dosages,

> : > Sustanon 100 and 250 for varying lengths of time, and also Androgel,

> : > again for varying lengths of time and dosages.

> : >

> : > I do better on the higher dosages of Testosterone, but my endo is

> : > unwilling to continue to prescribe large amounts of testosterone, as

> : > he's worried about the effects of the high levels of estrogen.

> : >

> : > Nor will he prescribe Arimidex: his argument is that the only

> : > Estrogen in my system is what my body converts from Testosterone, so

> : > what's the point of using a high level of testosterone, if it's only

> : > going to be converted to Estrogen, which you then have to lower with

> : > Arimidex... why not just use less Testosterone in the first place?

> : >

> : > Does anyone have any ideas? Perhaps a study or two?

> : >

> : > Thanks,

> : >

> : > -JB

> :

June 13, 2004

I don't agree with your doctor at all, his argument is a poor one.

You need whatever level of T makes you function best as long as it

is within the normal range.

Many forms of T replacement will cause high aromatisation to

estradiol. It doesn't mean T shouldn't be replaced, just means that

the aromatisation needs to be minimised. Aromasin and Arimidex are

the best tools out there to do this. There are no negative side

effects to these drugs as far as the studies show. There is no

reason to live at a low level of t and function poorly just to keep

estradiol down. You need a higher range of t when it is being

replaced to function best. It is simple to keep estradiol in check,

that's what aromasin and arimidex are for.

Armyguy

> > Hi everyone,

> >

> > I've had quite a bit of difficulty trying to find a happy level

of

> > Testosterone for me - I've been through pellets at various

dosages,

> > Sustanon 100 and 250 for varying lengths of time, and also

Androgel,

> > again for varying lengths of time and dosages.

> >

> > I do better on the higher dosages of Testosterone, but my endo

is

> > unwilling to continue to prescribe large amounts of

testosterone, as

> > he's worried about the effects of the high levels of estrogen.

> >

> > Nor will he prescribe Arimidex: his argument is that the only

> > Estrogen in my system is what my body converts from

Testosterone, so

> > what's the point of using a high level of testosterone, if it's

only

> > going to be converted to Estrogen, which you then have to lower

with

> > Arimidex... why not just use less Testosterone in the first

place?

> >

> > Does anyone have any ideas? Perhaps a study or two?

> -------------------------------------------------------------

> I agree with your doctor. Any more T in my body that is not

needed

> to feel good is converted to estrogen, regardless of the numerical

> level of a test resulst. I seem to be able to feel pretty good and

> control water weight gain from estrogen conversion on about 10g a

day.

> Yes, I probably need more and do in fact feel even better,

stronger,

> on more T but that is a fine line, and if I do more my tits start

to

> swell and nipples get hard and I gain a quick 6 pounds.

> However, I disagree with your doctor about the arimidex, it has

saved

> my a couple times now from the permanent effects of too much

estrogen

> when I have overdone T. Without it available, I would have had to

> stop all T use for a while and wait form the estrogen to go down,

and

> feel like crap for that 10 day period or so.

> norton

June 13, 2004

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't estrogen also converted from

other hormones like androstenedione? I thought I read that

androstenedione can be converted to estrone, and estrone can be

converted to estradiol.

So if that's the case, what your doctor said about all of the

estrogen in your body being converted from testosterone would be

false.

TE

> > > Hi everyone,

> > >

> > > I've had quite a bit of difficulty trying to find a happy

level

> of

> > > Testosterone for me - I've been through pellets at various

> dosages,

> > > Sustanon 100 and 250 for varying lengths of time, and also

> Androgel,

> > > again for varying lengths of time and dosages.

> > >

> > > I do better on the higher dosages of Testosterone, but my endo

> is

> > > unwilling to continue to prescribe large amounts of

> testosterone, as

> > > he's worried about the effects of the high levels of estrogen.

> > >

> > > Nor will he prescribe Arimidex: his argument is that the only

> > > Estrogen in my system is what my body converts from

> Testosterone, so

> > > what's the point of using a high level of testosterone, if

it's

> only

> > > going to be converted to Estrogen, which you then have to

lower

> with

> > > Arimidex... why not just use less Testosterone in the first

> place?

> > >

> > > Does anyone have any ideas? Perhaps a study or two?

> > -------------------------------------------------------------

> > I agree with your doctor. Any more T in my body that is not

> needed

> > to feel good is converted to estrogen, regardless of the

numerical

> > level of a test resulst. I seem to be able to feel pretty good

and

> > control water weight gain from estrogen conversion on about 10g

a

> day.

> > Yes, I probably need more and do in fact feel even better,

> stronger,

> > on more T but that is a fine line, and if I do more my tits

start

> to

> > swell and nipples get hard and I gain a quick 6 pounds.

> > However, I disagree with your doctor about the arimidex, it has

> saved

> > my a couple times now from the permanent effects of too much

> estrogen

> > when I have overdone T. Without it available, I would have had

to

> > stop all T use for a while and wait form the estrogen to go

down,

> and

> > feel like crap for that 10 day period or so.

> > norton

June 14, 2004

The greatest diagram I've ever seen on what converts to what is

located at this address:

http://www.ceri.com/q_v7n2q3.htm

It tells you what everything comes from, and which enzyme does the

converting.

Note that aromitase converts testosterone to estradiol, but it also

converts andro to estrone. Then estradiol and estrone convert in

both directions with a different enzyme.

But I think the bottom line is that if aromitase is inhibited, you'll

end up with less of both estrogen types.

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't estrogen also converted from

> other hormones like androstenedione? I thought I read that

> androstenedione can be converted to estrone, and estrone can be

> converted to estradiol.

>

> So if that's the case, what your doctor said about all of the

> estrogen in your body being converted from testosterone would be

> false.

>

> TE

June 15, 2004

I wish I could explain the total estrogen result, but I can't. You

are using the most effective of the aromatase blockers, and I agree

that all estrogens should be low. But here are some possibilities:

1. Some estrogen, and some testosterone, is produced in the adrenal

glands, and is therefore not blocked by the aromatase inhibitors. I

don't know how much E or T this accounts for, but I don't think it's

very much.

2. The total estrogen test may be counting things other than

the " big three " of estrone, estradiol and estriol (E1, E2 and E3). I

read somewhere that there are 30 different estrogens. I suppose the

test could even be counting phyto-estrogens or other chemicals that

may not function as estrogens but still show on the tests.

The real question is whether whatever is measured in that test, other

than the big three, has any real effect on things in a man. I've

never found much information on the total estrogen test - how it's

done or what it measures. Based on what I've read, I would pay more

attention to the estradiol number than the total, but it sure would

be nice to know what that total number comes from, and how it could

be high while taking aromasin. Please let us know if you solve this

mystery.

> I agree, that was very helpful to me wayback.

>

> So aromatase inhibitors like arimidex and aromasin should be

> effective in reducing ALL types of estrogen, not just estradiol?

> This is interesting because the last blood test I had showed my

> estradiol to be 32 pg/mL (normal range 0-53 pg/mL) and total

> estrogen was 150 pg/mL (normal range 40-115 pg/mL). I'm using

> aromasin, so I would expect all types of estrogen to be low, yet

> total estrogen is high. Can anyone make sense of this?

>

> TE

June 15, 2004

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:28:39 -0000, you wrote:

>

>I wish I could explain the total estrogen result, but I can't. You

>are using the most effective of the aromatase blockers, and I agree

>that all estrogens should be low. But here are some possibilities:

I she drinking soy milk or soy products?

June 15, 2004

>

> >

> >I wish I could explain the total estrogen result, but I can't.

You

> >are using the most effective of the aromatase blockers, and I

agree

> >that all estrogens should be low. But here are some

possibilities:

>

> I she drinking soy milk or soy products?

Actually, I do eat many soy products (such as Boca Burgers, tofu,

etc.). I've been a vegetarian since I was 11 (I'm 23 now). I've

read all sorts of conflicting reports on the effects of soy on

estrogen levels, so I'm not sure what to believe. But just to be on

the cautious side, I recently cut out all soy milk, since I used to

drink quite a bit of it, and I read somewhere that two glasses of

soy milk a day is equivalent to taking a birth control pill. I

still eat a lot of soy products though. It makes me wonder if I

should go back to eating meat, which I'd rather not do, but if soy

is having an adverse effect on my estrogen levels, I'd probably go

ahead and do it. It's not worth jeopardizing my health.

TE

June 15, 2004

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:05:05 -0000, you wrote:

>Actually, I do eat many soy products (such as Boca Burgers, tofu,

>etc.). I've been a vegetarian since I was 11 (I'm 23 now). I've

>read all sorts of conflicting reports on the effects of soy on

>estrogen levels, so I'm not sure what to believe. But just to be on

>the cautious side, I recently cut out all soy milk, since I used to

>drink quite a bit of it, and I read somewhere that two glasses of

>soy milk a day is equivalent to taking a birth control pill. I

>still eat a lot of soy products though. It makes me wonder if I

>should go back to eating meat, which I'd rather not do, but if soy

>is having an adverse effect on my estrogen levels, I'd probably go

>ahead and do it. It's not worth jeopardizing my health.

As soys are pseudo estrogens I wonder if they're affecting your tests?

June 16, 2004

> As soys are pseudo estrogens I wonder if they're affecting your

tests?

If that's the case, and the soy I'm consuming is elevating my total

estrogen levels, but not estradiol, is that a genuine cause for

concern?

TE

June 16, 2004

TE,

Dr. Shippen writes that soy products (and some other foods) are

beneficial in speeding up the P450 system and thus helps

decrease estrogen levels by increasing E2 elimination. The

phytoestrogens in soy have only 1/500th the active effect of

estradiol They compete with E2 receptors, blocking some of it's

negative actions.

I drink soy milk and will continue to do so.

Your idea that soy might effect total E test levels is intriguing.

That might explain some odd test results I recently had. That

leads to some more questions:

* Is a high total estrogen level significant if E2 levels are okay?

* If phytoestrogens are beneficial but artificially elevate total

estrogen test levels, should they be discontinued?

I imagine that someone, somewhere knows if phytoestrogens

(isoflavones) show up in lab tests.

Peace,

Bruce

> > As soys are pseudo estrogens I wonder if they're affecting

your

> tests?

>

> If that's the case, and the soy I'm consuming is elevating my

total

> estrogen levels, but not estradiol, is that a genuine cause for

> concern?

>

> TE

June 16, 2004

TE,

Dr. Shippen writes that soy products (and some other foods) are

beneficial in speeding up the P450 system and thus helps

decrease estrogen levels by increasing E2 elimination. The

phytoestrogens in soy have only 1/500th the active effect of

estradiol They compete with E2 receptors, blocking some of it's

negative actions.

I drink soy milk and will continue to do so.

Your idea that soy might effect total E test levels is intriguing.

That might explain some odd test results I recently had. That

leads to some more questions:

* Is a high total estrogen level significant if E2 levels are okay?

* If phytoestrogens are beneficial but artificially elevate total

estrogen test levels, should they be discontinued?

I imagine that someone, somewhere knows if phytoestrogens

(isoflavones) show up in lab tests.

Peace,

Bruce

> > As soys are pseudo estrogens I wonder if they're affecting

your

> tests?

>

> If that's the case, and the soy I'm consuming is elevating my

total

> estrogen levels, but not estradiol, is that a genuine cause for

> concern?

>

> TE

June 16, 2004

Hi TE this link on herbs has some info on estroge and soy.

http://www.geocities.com/bill3320/hormones.html

Phil

TE <PropeciaSideEffects@...> wrote: