Re: Gay Folks

[Guest guest]

I think it's because gay men are more inclined to talk about their intimate

issues with other men. Of course that does not apply across the board, but

the vast majority of straight men would find talking about their bits in a

clinical context, embarrassing.

Look at how many people don't go to their doctor out of embarrassment! Silly

really.

As far as I know no studies have been done. In Klinefelter circles this

debate raises it's head quite often, especially when Klinefelter

Organisations (to appease parents of Klinefelter children) are keen to deny

that there may be a higher incidence of homosexuality in people with

Klinefelters. The statement they always use is, " There is no evidence to

support that a Klinefelter boy has a greater chance of growing up to be

Homosexual " . What they fail to mention is that the same can be said of

Heterosexual. I recently scored a victory with that one. I used this same

argument to have the statement removed from a new information booklet being

produced in the UK. There has been no research on the subject, therefore the

statement is blatant discrimination.

Steph

----- Original Message -----

From: " knoto55 "

Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 7:25 AM

> I visit this board irregularly, but overtime I've seen the same type

> of messages being posted. Some of the posters seem to be taking

> Testosterone for other reasons besides hypogonadism. While others

> have Kleinfelters, prolactinomas or like me - non-functioning

> pituitary adenomas.

>

> One common thread I've seen is that a lot of us are Gay. So, does it

> have something to do with hypogonadism? Has anyone done studies on

> this issue?

[Guest guest]

Ken,

You can use poll function. It's in left margin of our home page...set up a

poll with those two questions.

I've been subscribed here since 2001 and I've never noticed a preponderance

of gay/bi vs. straight men.

On the contrary, I think that gay/bi men may be less likely to identify

their sexual orientation until they get the " lay of the land " .

I'm a moderator at Alt-Support-Impotence-ASI/

And I recently set up a poll about how members feel about ED jokes/humor.

Two demographic questions I had in poll were age range and sexual

orientation. Thus far, out of ~25 respondents, ~40% were gay/bi and 60%

straight. Another moderator was surprised with the results and he had

always perceived ASI to be predominately straight.

I've been a member of this site for ~year

http://www.thundersplace.com/forum/

And have begun posting regularly. My sig now is OR eon 65 yo...I'm getting

lay of land. I perceive Thunder's place to be predominately straight.

I subscribed to ASI - NG in fall 1999 and after about month...I was siging

as GayMan. I noticed that more men began identifying as gaymen.

There has only been one other fellow that identified as HIV+ and that was

here and I've not seen him post in ~two years.

OR eon

[Guest guest]

Well there you have it, I am unique. I am obviously not average, but then

neither am I a man. If I am 40% female, does that mean I am only 60% gay?

LOL

Steph

----- Original Message -----

From: " Merati "

Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 8:58 PM

............and

> that gay men's penises are slighly longer than the

> average man's.............

[Guest guest]

I definitely do not fit them..........

Steph

----- Original Message -----

From: " Merati "

Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 8:58 PM

There have not been millions of

> studies on these things, though, so I don't know if I

> would believe too strongly in these theories

> (especially because I seem to not fit them)!............

[Guest guest]

Thanks for responding -but the poll function does not show up - I

checked with and its only available to moderators - that's why

I asked the questions.

So you're on ED support group? The only time I had trouble was when I

let my T levels get too low. That happened recently when I had

skipped a few days of Androgel. That was the first time it ever

happened. I was quite surprised it occurred. Usually I am just

anorgasmic from the anti-depressants. When I was taking Celexa I did

not have an orgasm for over a year - then I asked the doctor to

switch to others. The one I'm on now is Effexor XR. It works and I

can have orgasms most of the time I try.

Ken

> Ken,

>

> You can use poll function. It's in left margin of our home

page...set up a

> poll with those two questions.

>

> I've been subscribed here since 2001 and I've never noticed a

preponderance

> of gay/bi vs. straight men.

>

> On the contrary, I think that gay/bi men may be less likely to

identify

> their sexual orientation until they get the " lay of the land " .

>

> I'm a moderator at Alt-Support-

Impotence-ASI/

> And I recently set up a poll about how members feel about ED

jokes/humor.

> Two demographic questions I had in poll were age range and sexual

> orientation. Thus far, out of ~25 respondents, ~40% were gay/bi

and 60%

> straight. Another moderator was surprised with the results and he

had

> always perceived ASI to be predominately straight.

>

> I've been a member of this site for ~year

> http://www.thundersplace.com/forum/

> And have begun posting regularly. My sig now is OR eon 65

yo...I'm getting

> lay of land. I perceive Thunder's place to be predominately

straight.

>

> I subscribed to ASI - NG in fall 1999 and after about month...I was

siging

> as GayMan. I noticed that more men began identifying as gaymen.

>

> There has only been one other fellow that identified as HIV+ and

that was

> here and I've not seen him post in ~two years.

>

> OR eon

[Guest guest]

Re: Gay Folks

> I think it's because gay men are more inclined to talk about their

intimate

> issues with other men. Of course that does not apply across the board, but

> the vast majority of straight men would find talking about their bits in a

> clinical context, embarrassing.

>

> Look at how many people don't go to their doctor out of embarrassment!

Silly

> really.

>

> As far as I know no studies have been done. In Klinefelter circles this

> debate raises it's head quite often, especially when Klinefelter

> Organisations (to appease parents of Klinefelter children) are keen to

deny

> that there may be a higher incidence of homosexuality in people with

> Klinefelters

This is bull shit. The reason why XXY orgs make that claim is because there

is NO research that supports such a claim. Nothing credible, anyway - some

incredible claims, yes. LOL

All the research points towards the incidence of XXY being gay as being the

same as in the rest of the pop - exactly what would you base your claim on,

Steph - your experience?

I'd allow that there may a slightly higher incidence - say a few percent.

If XY/XX figures were 5%, then XXY might be 7-8%.

Just show me the research, please. Otherwise we can make any claim we like,

or dislike.

best

vaughn

[Guest guest]

That's a function that the owners/moderators decide upon - whether to allow

any member to set up a poll or whether it should be controlled. There is a

setting in that can be adjusted.

Re: Gay Folks

> Thanks for responding -but the poll function does not show up - I

> checked with and its only available to moderators - that's why

> I asked the questions.

[Guest guest]

On 4/3/03 11:25 PM, " knoto55 " <no_reply > wrote:

> I visit this board irregularly, but overtime I've seen the same type

> of messages being posted. Some of the posters seem to be taking

> Testosterone for other reasons besides hypogonadism. While others

> have Kleinfelters, prolactinomas or like me - non-functioning

> pituitary adenomas.

>

Ken

I was touched by your letter enough to reply here, perhaps at length, we¹ll

see.

>

> One common thread I've seen is that a lot of us are Gay. So, does it

> have something to do with hypogonadism? Has anyone done studies on

> this issue?

>

> Here's my story in a nutshell - Personally, as a child before puberty hit, I

> knew I was different.

>

I can relate to this easily. I always knew I was different, long before

puberty. My classmates knew it as well. I was the target for their ridicule,

aggression and hate. I cannot think of a week that wasn¹t to include a

threat of violence or actual violence. I was never the cause of this, rather

I was the target to this. I never started a fight, I was the one that needed

to be picked on. Once I even asked why I was being picked on, and before the

guy nailed me, he said, ³I don¹t know, I just don¹t like you. You¹re

different²

>

> I didn't know how different until much later on in life. Going through

> school I was always on the small side - always placed in the front or first

> in line.

>

I was the last to be chosen for any sports activity. It wasn¹t that I

couldn¹t throw or hit, as I was able to hit a ball left- or right-handed. It

wasn¹t that I threw a ball like a ³sissy-girl² as I could send it over the

plate without question!

>

> When I hit puberty and had my first orgasm at age 12,

>

Mine was when I was 7 or so.

>

> I did develop, but I was never muscular like some of the other guys. I also

> was not hairy. Yeah, I had some down below, but my chest was bare and my face

> was just about bare.

>

I seemed to develop normally at first, however, somewhere along the way,

things slowed down. I was a ³late-bloomer² having had my first ejaculation

when I was almost 13. However, even at my current age of 38 I can shave

twice a week. Sure, I grow some facial hair. It is soft, straight, smooth,

and never rough or sandpaper in feel. My chest remains bare, my arms and

legs are fairly lightly haired, soft, and blond.

>

> I was looking at my high school yearbook picture today are saw how babyish my

> face looked. I also didn't have much interest in the opposite sex, but in Gym

> class, I would look at other guys (carefully) and saw how different they were

> development wise - from me.

>

Same here. I would look at guys and wonder when I would get some. (Real body

hair that is!) Those guys had big testicles, full pubic bushes, and bodies

that had some definite muscle. Mine was inadequate! My testicles were not

yet full and tender to being hit. To this day, if I am hit in the groin, it

hurts little at all. My PCP says that my pubic bush has the appearance of a

woman¹s not a man¹s. I wondered why.

>

> That continued through College - I really never had to shave. I would shave

> off some straggler hairs on my chin or upper lip, but when I looked at male

> friends - they all had thick beards and were hairy. I also thought my dick

> was small, cause when flaccid, it would be tiny and sometimes even retract a

> bit into my body. Other guys had long soft dicks. Oh - I was able to get

> erect and thought it a respectable size - and it was I guess. But when I

> looked at porn, all those guys had huge ones.

>

I never really had the problem you have had with your penis retracting into

the abdominal cavity. But I always thought I was small, although erect it

would get larger, thankfully, but no where near the size of a porn star¹s!

Of course, I always thought it was because the porn star¹s were all overly

endowed, so thought little of it.

>

> Anyway, when I finally came out to my self and met the guy of my dreams (he

> had to be hairy), I still didn't think anything was wrong with me. I just

> thought I developed slowly - I was younger looking then other guys my age, my

> dick was normal, but my balls were on the small size and were usually tender

> to touch.

>

I too have always appeared younger than my peers, although at 17 I began

going grey! No explanation for this! It doesn¹t run in the family.

>

> Since I never said anything, the Doctors never thought about it.

>

Same here. I never thought much about it. I assumed I was average, normal,

and just slowly developing and aging in odd ways; few wrinkles, but

silvering hair.

>

> Over time I developed a bit more - shaved more, but then I started to get

> depressed, get chronic pain, trouble sleeping, arthritis, joint pain, muscle

> pain - that the doctors couldn't figure out.

>

Same here, it was complaints about other things that lead me to finally find

a doctor for help! I had a boyfriend when I was 24 that made a long list of

complaints about why he was dumping me.. Such as I couldn¹t grow facial hair

for shit, that he disliked me in bed, and so forth. I thought it was him!

I have always had headaches, dizziness and exhaustion. However, as I got

older, it got worse, and then hot flashes! I was 35 and having them. I would

have body aches too. And I always caught things easily. I was diagnosed as

having Chronic Fatigue, Depression, and Panic/Anxiety attacks. When my ex

dumped me (I was 34), he had some of the same complaints my boyfriend had

when I was 24.

My complaints reached a head when I complained about erectile dysfunction

and low sex drive (my ex¹s complaints had lead me to seek help for this). I

had still never been able to penetrate anyone by this age. I found a doctor

that listened to me and decided things were not making sense. I was still

shaving twice a week at that time.

> My orgasms stopped. My libido went downhill. I wasn't interested in Sex. I

> was a mess. Finally I read an article about Steroid inhalers and

> Osteoporosis. I asked the doctor about it. I had the DEXA bone scan. It was

> low.

>

I had my bone scan last month after repeatedly demanding it. Bingo, I have

osteopenia (beginning osteoporosis).

>

> They tested LH and FSH and T. All low.

>

In 1998, the doctor tested these. I all were low. He put me on Androgel. My

levels declined further. I was switched to the patch and they continued to

drop. I was put onto DHEA replacement and my DHEA levels declined as well!

My body became a mix of confusion for my various treating doctors!

I was finally placed on injection therapy and the levels of T went up. My

testicles atrophied. My nipples became very sore! After 6 months of this, I

discontinued injection therapy. Slowly returned to ³my normal² self. An MRI

revealed two microadenomas in the pituitary gland, and a cyst in my pineal

gland. I had a genetic test and was normal keryotype. My fertility test

showed me to be sterile. This was 2 years ago. I was 37 then.

>

> They did an MRI - I had a microadenoma on my Pituitary. I was placed on

> Androgel. Because of my history, my Endo still is not convinced that the

> Pituitary tumor is the source of the problem - he - and I - think I've always

> had low Testosterone. Why? I don't know.

>

My PCP feels that I have ³testicular failure² and that it occurred

mid-puberty. My endo. feels that the microadenomas are not at issue. He

thinks that there is some other things at work, but he doesn¹t know what.

>

> I'm not sure if I've ever been tested for Kleinfelters, but I dont' think I

> have that - I think I just didn't develop properly - that I was always

> borderline hypogonadic.

>

I live now with the diagnosis of ³hypogonadism.²

>

> So, even though I'm on androgel and my T is " normal " , I still have all my

> other medical problems.

>

Same here. The depression remains, though I have been forced by the

situation to return to injection therapy to reverse the osteopenia. It will

take several years to prove this out. Meanwhile, my testicles ache as usual

from this injection therapy, my nipples are sore, and I remain depressed, my

moods unaffected by the treatment. I take an amphetamine to address the

depression as I am allergic to the SSRI¹s out there. When I don¹t take them,

my blood pressure is higher than when I do take them. I asked my PCP about

this, she could only look at me and say, ³It¹s your body. It just does this.

It isn¹t normal. I don¹t know why. What is normal with you? Maybe you¹re a

woman in a man¹s body.² I told her I doubt it. I am happily male, just not

male enough.

I find that while I love the company of men, I can¹t relate to them, as I

feel inadequate around them.

>

> Because of chronic pain, I've been on a narcotic pain patch for over 2 years

> now. Without it I would not be able to walk let alone have a reason to live.

>

> I've also seen the common thread that a lot of us suffer from mysterious

> medical maladies that the Docs cannot diagnose. So,I would like to take a

> poll. Until I can figure out how to set up voting buttons -

>

> How many of us are Gay?

>

Well, here I am!

>

> How many of are " diagnostic dilemmas?

>

I am that! I have been told I have these diagnoses (to name a few):

* Idiosyncratic metabolism

* Paradoxical metabolism

* Hypersensitive metabolism

* Shadow Person

* A Reversed Seasonal Affect Disorder

* Chronic Fatigue

* Malingering

* Depression

* Panic disorder

* Anxiety disorder

* Diabetes (which I no longer test as)

* Hypogonadism

* Neonatal Seizure Disorder

> thanks,

> Ken

I look forward to hearing more.

[Guest guest]

Ok, Here goes..

I am 6¹2² and 6² erect.

On 4/4/03 4:57 PM, " knoto55 " <no_reply > wrote:

,

> I don't fit those studies either - I'm 5'7 " in height (my brother's are 6' and

> 6'2 " , and I certainly don't have a longer than average penis when soft. Quite

> the opposite. At least its above average when erect.

>

> Ken - a grower, not a show-er

[Guest guest]

Exactly there has been no study, therefore why do XXY ors. not also say that

there is nothing to support that there may be a higher incidence of

heterosexuality among XXY's. As there have been no studies, what XXY ors.

say about homosexuality is blatant discrimination against people who are

homosexual and that somehow being homosexual is a bad thing.

If you read what I wrote, you will note that I did not claim anything, as

there have been no studies to support the claim that the incidence of either

homosexuality or heterosexuality is higher in XXY's than in the population

at large.

Steph

----- Original Message -----

From: " Vaughn Hambley "

Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 4:16 AM

>

> This is bull shit. The reason why XXY orgs make that claim is because

there

> is NO research that supports such a claim. Nothing credible, anyway -

some

> incredible claims, yes. LOL

>

> All the research points towards the incidence of XXY being gay as being

the

> same as in the rest of the pop - exactly what would you base your claim

on,

> Steph - your experience?

>

> I'd allow that there may a slightly higher incidence - say a few percent.

> If XY/XX figures were 5%, then XXY might be 7-8%.

>

> Just show me the research, please. Otherwise we can make any claim we

like,

> or dislike.

[Guest guest]

Hi Ken,

An astute question. Good on you. I've yet to read all the replies,

and have not the time to before this reply, so the following comment

may already be duplicated. I don't yet know. Regarding the question

of Klinefelter's Syndrome, to my knowledge, it is easy to test for

in the first instance, because it is a chromosomal variation. The

most common Klinefelter's karyotype is XXY, although there is a

range of variations on this (XXXYY etc). The test to my knowledge

is therefore fairly straightforward, requiring a scraping of cells

(say from the mouth) from which a karyotype can be ascertained.

What's a karyotype? You've probably seen those photos of

chromosomes all grouped together - and usually numbered 1 - 22, with

the sex chromosomes paired together at the end (and often not

numbered). THAT is a karyotpe. At its most basic, the chromosomes

are identified under a microscope, a photo taken, and then it is

literally a matter of cutting them out and grouping them together on

a piece of paper. Another picture (photo or a photocopy) may then

be taken for the record.

I once did this basic exercise in an elective Human Population

Biology subject whilst doing my Psychology degree in 1989.

Doubtless there are more sophisticated - and probably quicker -

methods. However, the principle is - and must needs be - the same,

regardless of the method used.

Your message shows that apart from simply getting on with your life,

you have an inquiring mind, and a desire to understand. From the

perspective of an inquiring mind, I would therefore encourage you

check out your karyotype. Firstly, from a scientific perspective,

it simply allows either the ruling out or confirmation of a possible

variable (in this case Klinefelters). Secondly, and perhaps more

importantly, you will learn lots from the exercise, and such

knowledge growth will benefit not just you, but those who you come

into contact with over the years.

Cheers and good luck.

Lifeyerinit.

> I visit this board irregularly, but overtime I've seen the same

type

> of messages being posted. Some of the posters seem to be taking

> Testosterone for other reasons besides hypogonadism. While others

> have Kleinfelters, prolactinomas or like me - non-functioning

> pituitary adenomas.

>

> One common thread I've seen is that a lot of us are Gay. So, does

it

> have something to do with hypogonadism? Has anyone done studies

on

> this issue?

>

> Here's my story in a nutshell -

> Personally, as a child before puberty hit, I knew I was

different. I

> didn't know how different until much later on in life. Going

through

> school I was always on the small side - always placed in the front

or

> first in line. When I hit puberty and had my first orgasm at age

12,

> I did develop, but I was never muscular like some of the other

guys.

> I also was not hairy. Yeah, I had some down below, but my chest

was

> bare and my face was just about bare. I was looking at my high

> school yearbook picture today are saw how babyish my face looked.

I

> also didn't have much interest in the opposite sex, but in Gym

class,

> I would look at other guys (carefully) and saw how different they

> were development wise - from me. That continued through College -

I

> really never had to shave. I would shave off some straggler hairs

on

> my chin or upper lip, but when I looked at male friends - they all

> had thick beards and were hairy. I also thought my dick was

small,

> cause when flaccid, it would be tiny and sometimes even retract a

bit

> into my body. Other guys had long soft dicks. Oh - I was able to

> get erect and thought it a respectable size - and it was I guess.

> But when I looked at porn, all those guys had huge ones.

>

> Anyway, when I finally came out to my self and met the guy of my

> dreams (he had to be hairy), I still didn't think anything was

wrong

> with me. I just thought I developed slowly - I was younger

looking

> then other guys my age, my dick was normal, but my balls were on

the

> small size and were usually tender to touch. Since I never said

> anything, the Doctors never thought about it. Over time I

developed

> a bit more - shaved more, but then I started to get depressed, get

> chronic pain, trouble sleeping, arthritis, joint pain, muscle

pain -

> that the doctors couldn't figure out. My orgasms stopped. My

libido

> went downhill. I wasn't interested in Sex. I was a mess.

Finally I

> read an article about Steroid inhalers and Osteoporosis. I asked

the

> doctor about it. I had the DEXA bone scan. It was low. They

tested

> LH and FSH and T. All low. They did an MRI - I had a

microadenoma

> on my Pituitary. I was placed on Androgel. Because of my

history,

> my Endo still is not convinced that the Pituitary tumor is the

source

> of the problem - he - and I - think I've always had low

> Testosterone. Why? I don't know. I'm not sure if I've ever been

> tested for Kleinfelters, but I dont' think I have that - I think I

> just didn't develop properly - that I was always borderline

> hypogonadic.

>

> So, even though I'm on androgel and my T is " normal " , I still have

> all my other medical problems. Because of chronic pain, I've been

on

> a narcotic pain patch for over 2 years now. Without it I would

not

> be able to walk let alone have a reason to live.

>

> I've also seen the common thread that a lot of us suffer from

> mysterious medical maladies that the Docs cannot diagnose. So,I

> would like to take a poll. Until I can figure out how to set up

> voting buttons -

>

> How many of us are Gay?

>

> How many of are " diagnostic dilemmas?

>

> thanks,

>

> Ken

[Guest guest]

Or another way of putting it is by saying, everyone has a genetic

'signature'. Using that word again, 'normal' males have a 46, XY Karyotype,

while females have 46,XX. 23 pairs of chromosomes.

For people with Klinfelters the most common karyotype is 47, XXY an extra X

chromosome. More than 1 extra X is more rare and there is also mosaicism for

instance 46 XY/47,XXY, where only a part of the extra X has developed.

Me, I'm a home-grown 47, XXY.

Steph

----- Original Message -----

From: " lifeyerinit "

Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 7:45 PM

Regarding the question

> of Klinefelter's Syndrome, to my knowledge, it is easy to test for

> in the first instance, because it is a chromosomal variation.............