Re: shots which one

[Guest guest]

> I am getting tired of putting 2 pkg of androgel on every day and

> want to talk to my doc about injections.

> Which is better? Depo, Eth, Cep?

>

> I know there are pelletts, but want to try the shots first.

>

> Thanks,

> Bob

That plus the cost of Androgel is the reason I switched to

injectibles. I would only switch if the ultimate plan is for

self-administration of the shots instead of in the doc's office.

They'll probably have you do it a few times in the office. If those

shots are every other week, I'd tolerate that till I get to administer

them at home. Then I'd switch to once per week or so.

Depo-testosterone is a brand name for testosterone cypionate.

Delatestryl is a brand of testosterone enanthate. They are both fine.

I can't really tell the difference between them but you might be able

to go an extra day or so between shots with the cypionate.

Brad

[Guest guest]

Hi Bob,

I went to shots after getting tired of 2 packets of AndroGel/day. Besides the

slathering annoyance, it just wasn't getting my T & free T levels up.

I went to Delatestryl (T-enanthate) intramuscular. main problem was due to a

former doc's frequency: every 3 weeks is way too long.

I'm now on T-Cypionate subcutaneous 200 mg every 10 days. Started at every

7 days, which put T & free T levels significantly over range.

I like the SubQ injection because the site (thigh) is easier to self-inject. The

Delatestryl had to be IM, and it was hard to reach the butt. Fortunately my wife

was willing to help.

Bruce

> I am getting tired of putting 2 pkg of androgel on every day and

> want to talk to my doc about injections.

> Which is better? Depo, Eth, Cep?

>

> I know there are pelletts, but want to try the shots first.

>

> Thanks,

> Bob

[Guest guest]

T-Cyp is the same as Depo, just a brand name. Enanthate (Delatestryl) comes in a

5ml

bottle insteand of a 10 mil bottle and does cost quite a bit more. It is ok to

switch once in

awhile to enanthate then back to Cyp. Weekly injections is a good way to go.

Just saw a bottle of T-Cyp 50mil at 335mg/ml for $130.00 Won't say where, and

don't

recommend getting it as it is unknown about it's quality, but that is real

cheap.

> I am getting tired of putting 2 pkg of androgel on every day and

> want to talk to my doc about injections.

> Which is better? Depo, Eth, Cep?

>

> I know there are pelletts, but want to try the shots first.

>

> Thanks,

> Bob

[Guest guest]

Bruce (and anyone else),

I hope you're still around . . . I'm wondering if you're still doing

the T-cypionate subcutaneously? If so, how is it working? I'm

wondering why the heck everyone doesn't administer T-cyp subQ if it

works that way, or is there something special about your physiology?

I can't find any other examples of subQ administration of T-cyp.

(I'm also not clear on why if you're able to do the T-cyp subQ then

why not the T-enanthate subQ as well? Is it just that it's more

irritating to your skin?)

Have you ever at any point done the T-cyp intramuscularly, and how

did the results compare to subQ? Also, when you inject 200mg T-cyp

subQ do you see a large " bump " (corresponding to 1mL of volume at

200mg T-cyp/mL) just under your skin that remains for a long time, or

does it disappear rapidly?

Did your doctor give any of his thoughts on the subQ administration

of T-cyp versus IM?

Thanks,

> > I am getting tired of putting 2 pkg of androgel on every day and

> > want to talk to my doc about injections.

> > Which is better? Depo, Eth, Cep?

> >

> > I know there are pelletts, but want to try the shots first.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Bob

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I'm still doing T-cyp subQ, now at 120mg/week, plus 0.25mg Arimidex 2xweek. It's

working very, very well for me.

Last year I switched to a new doc who prescribed T-cyp, and showed me how to

inject

subQ. I said I could do IM, he said subQ was fine and easier. He was the first

TRT doc I had

who seemed to know what he was doing.

I looked up prescribing info. for T-cypionate & T-enthanate, and all the

instructions I

found said to go intramuscular. I think most docs who read today's prescribing

info. will

say that. However, my doc's been practicing medicine for over 50 years, and my

results are

very good. That's all I need to know.

120mg of 200mg/mL formulation means I only inject 0.6cc at a time, so there's

very little

" bump " . I used to do 200mg/10days, the bump was bigger but no real problem.

There's a

little burning sensation, no big deal.

I've heard that subQ (which goes into the fatty layer) can cause more E2

conversion than

IM. I'm on low-dose Arimidex to control E2 conversion. IMO switching to IM

wouldn't

eliminate the need for E2 management.

Best,

Bruce

> Bruce (and anyone else),

>

> I hope you're still around . . . I'm wondering if you're still doing

> the T-cypionate subcutaneously? If so, how is it working? I'm

> wondering why the heck everyone doesn't administer T-cyp subQ if it

> works that way, or is there something special about your physiology?

> I can't find any other examples of subQ administration of T-cyp.

> (I'm also not clear on why if you're able to do the T-cyp subQ then

> why not the T-enanthate subQ as well? Is it just that it's more

> irritating to your skin?)

>

> Have you ever at any point done the T-cyp intramuscularly, and how

> did the results compare to subQ? Also, when you inject 200mg T-cyp

> subQ do you see a large " bump " (corresponding to 1mL of volume at

> 200mg T-cyp/mL) just under your skin that remains for a long time, or

> does it disappear rapidly?

>

> Did your doctor give any of his thoughts on the subQ administration

> of T-cyp versus IM?

> Thanks,

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks so much, Bruce! Your new doc wouldn't happen to be Dr.

Shippen, would it? And do you do the subQ injections in the

abdominal area? - because I found the following info as well (which I

also posted earlier today on the Meso forum), which supports your use

of subQ injections:

http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?showtopic=8130

[From the link above, dated February 2004:]

[initial posting:]

" I was corresponding with a patient of Dr. Eugene Shippen (THE

TESTOSTERONE SYNDROME) about Dr. Shippen's protocol. Apparently his

preferred method of testosterone replacement therapy in cases where

he otherwise might have tried pellets, creams or gels is now

SUBCUTANEOUS testosterone injection. According to this patient,

unlike intramuscular injection, subcutaneous injection of a small

amount three times per week results in ultra stable levels and low

estrogen conversion. Apparently Shippen uses this method for his own

testosterone replacement. Not only does it work better than even

pellets apparently but it's dirt cheap compared to about any other

method.

I was going to get pellets (hypopituitary) but now I wonder if I

should try this. I have two questions though:

1) Are there any studies on this method? I couldn't find any.

2) I don't doubt Shippen; the lab work of who knows how many patients

would not lie. But if it works so well, why the HELL wasn't this

thought of and tested a long time ago?? It seems like there is a

big " DUH " factor here. "

[A second posting:]

" does he use free testosteorne? a suspension? does he used an oil

based ester? specifics please

also, subQ injections are often more painful or lead to inflammation.

if you ever have accidentally gotten a steroid injection into the

subq instead of the muscle you would understand "

[A reply:]

" I heard back from the patient of Dr. Shippen. He injects depo-

testosterone 200mg/ml, .35 ml every 3 days into abdominal fat. He

splits the injections into two .18 ml injections which is .36 ml, and

says this is because a tiny amount will leak out of the injection

site.

According to this patient, this dosing schedule leaves him with a

stable 900 ng/dl total testosterone level and none of the high

estrogen conversion associated with large intramuscular injection.

Apparently Shippen is convinced enough that this is now his preferred

method of TRT. I know he starts by trying to get levels into the high

normal range by trying to get the body to make its own, but if TRT is

called for apparently subcutaneous injection is the first thing he

prescribes. "

[This appears to be 70mg every 3 days for a total of 163mg/wk]

> > Bruce (and anyone else),

> >

> > I hope you're still around . . . I'm wondering if you're still

doing

> > the T-cypionate subcutaneously? If so, how is it working? I'm

> > wondering why the heck everyone doesn't administer T-cyp subQ if

it

> > works that way, or is there something special about your

physiology?

> > I can't find any other examples of subQ administration of T-cyp.

> > (I'm also not clear on why if you're able to do the T-cyp subQ

then

> > why not the T-enanthate subQ as well? Is it just that it's more

> > irritating to your skin?)

> >

> > Have you ever at any point done the T-cyp intramuscularly, and

how

> > did the results compare to subQ? Also, when you inject 200mg T-

cyp

> > subQ do you see a large " bump " (corresponding to 1mL of volume at

> > 200mg T-cyp/mL) just under your skin that remains for a long

time, or

> > does it disappear rapidly?

> >

> > Did your doctor give any of his thoughts on the subQ

administration

> > of T-cyp versus IM?

> > Thanks,

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

No, not Shippen. New (4/04) doc is Walter Schwartz. I inject in upper thigh. I

asked him if

it was also okay to inject in abdomen, he said yes. Tried that once or twice,

but I prefer the

thigh.

Bruce

> Thanks so much, Bruce! Your new doc wouldn't happen to be Dr.

> Shippen, would it? And do you do the subQ injections in the

> abdominal area? - because I found the following info as well (which I

> also posted earlier today on the Meso forum), which supports your use

> of subQ injections: