Re: andro gel

[Guest guest]

Make sure you get a full panel of hormone tests done before you start

therapy. Others here can provide you with specifics, but the ones I

can think of offhand are total testosterone, free testosterone, LH,

FSH, and estradiol (E2).

Mark

[Guest guest]

Add prolactin, and maybe total estrogens.

> Re: andro gel

>

> Make sure you get a full panel of hormone tests done before

> you start therapy. Others here can provide you with

> specifics, but the ones I can think of offhand are total

> testosterone, free testosterone, LH, FSH, and estradiol (E2).

>

> Mark

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 19:33:22 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>

>I was told by the doctors that I would have to start

>using Andro Gel as my hormone levels are low?

Before you start you should be tested for prolactin, ferritin,

E2(estradiol), FSH and LH. Too many doctors are prescribing right out

the gate without looking at causes.

Read these:

http://www.aace.com/clin/guidelines/hypogonadism.pdf

for an understanding of causes and proper treatment.

Also are you planning on having children in the future? Near future?

TRT will make you sterile. Possibly permanently. Be aware of this

there are alternative treatments if you want children in your future.

- - - -

Just another albino black sheep

[Guest guest]

> -----Original Message-----

> From: soxislife [mailto:soxislife@...]

>My fantasies have goten much more prolific.

> They've also changed somewhat & they're also comming in new topics!

Huh! Same here. I've even developed interest in some things I never would

have imagined. I wasn't sure if it was elevated T or being single again for

the first time in many many years, maybe it's a bit of both.

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:24:54 -0700, you wrote:

>I think it's wrong to flat out state, as is frequently done here, that AG is

>always and automatically suppressive. Is there data to support that, or is

>it just observation/anecdote from users here?

It has always been my understanding it is the scientific consensus.

Now perhaps if there is no LH/FSH/GNRH feedback loop (i.e. some sort

of abnormality in one of these), production would continue.

- - - -

Just another albino black sheep

[Guest guest]

But from where did you obtain that understanding? It just doesn't make

sense.

Say your body needs 10 units of testosterone daily, but the gonads are worn

out and can only make 5 units. Since there's a deficit, 5 units of GnRH are

sent out to signal more T is needed. The " consensus " around here is that if

you added 5 units of supplemental testosterone that the 5 units additional

would not add with the 5 units natural to total 10 units and satisfy the

body's needs, but rather that the 5 supplemental would shut off the 5

natural and leave you 5 short.

I think it makes more sense this way: the supplemental T would combine with

the natural T and bboost the total T to 10 units, which would in fact make

the body stop sending out GnRH...however, once the Total T dropped below the

necessary 10 units, there's a deficit again and more GnRH is secreted to

stimulate natural T production. All the supplement does is make up the

difference.

That's a feedback system that makes sense - not one that rejects

supplementation until it reaches the total need.

Thyroid hormone less than the body's total demand doesn't suppress thryoid

activity, cortisone supplementation less than the body's total demand

doesn't suppress adrenal function, and insulin supplementation less than the

total need doesn't suppress the pancreas. Why would the testosterone system

be any different than the rest of the endocrine system?

If there's medical studies to show that AG automatically, regardless of

dose, shuts down natural T production, I'd really like to see it, so that

maybe I could understand it.

At what point would AG's suppression effect not happen - 2.5g, 1.0g, 0.5g?

> Re: Re: andro gel

>

> On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:24:54 -0700, you wrote:

>

> >I think it's wrong to flat out state, as is frequently done

> here, that

> >AG is always and automatically suppressive. Is there data

> to support

> >that, or is it just observation/anecdote from users here?

>

>

> It has always been my understanding it is the scientific consensus.

>

> Now perhaps if there is no LH/FSH/GNRH feedback loop (i.e.

> some sort of abnormality in one of these), production would

> continue.

>

> - - - -

[Guest guest]

your testicles are lazy they only work when ask to do so.

when your hypothalamus(H) sees that your testosterone is low it

tells the pitituary(P) to make lh/fsh. this in turn tells the

testicles(T) to make testosterone and sperm.

When H sees that you have enough testosterone it tells P to stop

making lh/fsh which in turn tells T it is break time.

T is taking a break and you apply androgel. This tells H that we

have testosterone so he does not tell P to make lh/fsh.

Not sure why H thinks lower levels of testosterone are ok, maybe it

is clogged with estrogen, maybe something else (alcohol, medication,

tumor, etc).

Again the cause of low T is very important. For me, my lh/fsh were

in the low end of normal but my testosterone was low, meaning that H

thought that I the level of T I was at was ok or that P has a

problem making lh/fsh, but could make some. When I went on androgel

it brought my levels up, so H stopped telling P to make lh/fsh.

This does not happen over night, so for about 15 days I felt good,

as T was still doing there thing and the androgel was adding to

that. I was retested on day 19 because I was getting back to my old

tired self, and found that my levels went from 212 before androgel

to 213 on 1pkg/day and my lh/fsh were almost non-existant.

This information told me, not my doc, that my problem was probally

upstairs rather than down. Which I was able to confirm with hcG.

My testicles are capible of working if they get the proper signals.

Which I suspected because my lh/fsh were low to start with. Had my

lh/fsh been on the high end or normal or way over the top, then it

would have been safe to say the testicles did not work.

> >

> > >I think it's wrong to flat out state, as is frequently done

> > here, that

> > >AG is always and automatically suppressive. Is there data

> > to support

> > >that, or is it just observation/anecdote from users here?

> >

> >

> > It has always been my understanding it is the scientific

consensus.

> >

> > Now perhaps if there is no LH/FSH/GNRH feedback loop (i.e.

> > some sort of abnormality in one of these), production would

> > continue.

> >

> > - - - -

[Guest guest]

> your testicles are lazy they only work when ask to do so.

> when your hypothalamus(H) sees that your testosterone is low it

> tells the pitituary(P) to make lh/fsh. this in turn tells the

> testicles(T) to make testosterone and sperm......

>

Hi Bob,

I am weighing the pros and cons of a couple of treatments. Your

comments on hGC has me wondering. My T values are at the lower normal

range, the Free T is off the low end of the scale as is DHT. LH are

3.5 which I understand is normal, but TSH - thyroid stimulating

hormone (FSH was only measured 3 years ago at 4.2), which was 2.2 3

years ago has now come down to 1.04 mU/l (normal 0.4 - 5.0). What

were your values prior to starting your HCG treatment ? And did you

try Clomid before HCG ?

Thanks.

Tomas

[Guest guest]

Exogenous testosterone will ALWAYS shut down LH and FSH production

completely REGARDLESS of how high the dosage is. It is just a matter

of time.

> >

> > >I think it's wrong to flat out state, as is frequently done

> > here, that

> > >AG is always and automatically suppressive. Is there data

> > to support

> > >that, or is it just observation/anecdote from users here?

> >

> >

> > It has always been my understanding it is the scientific

consensus.

> >

> > Now perhaps if there is no LH/FSH/GNRH feedback loop (i.e.

> > some sort of abnormality in one of these), production would

> > continue.

> >

> > - - - -

[Guest guest]

before androgel

lh 4.6 (1.5-9.3)

fsh 4.3 (1.4-18.1)

tsh 3.057 (0.350 - 5.50)

total T 212 (range 260-1000)

free T 32.5 (range 50-210)

angrogel +19

lh <.07

fsh <.07

did not redo the tsh.

total t 213

free t 42.9

Get the results of 2 pkg androgel and the full results of the hcG

test tomorrow. The nurse did tell me the total T from the test 72

hours after the hcG was 1633.

Did not try clomid first, will try it next. My thoughts are start

with the source then work up the chain and see where the failure

lies. Had the hcG not been effective then I know the clomid would

not either. Since it did work I now know my testicles are capable

of making T and as such do not need to be replaced with silicone

ones at least not at this time.

I do plan on trying clomid in a month or so. Will do new blood work

in 2 weeks to see if 500 IU 3x/week is enough to keep em going.

Hope to reduce or stop the androgel.

Bob

> > your testicles are lazy they only work when ask to do so.

> > when your hypothalamus(H) sees that your testosterone is low it

> > tells the pitituary(P) to make lh/fsh. this in turn tells the

> > testicles(T) to make testosterone and sperm......

> >

> Hi Bob,

>

> I am weighing the pros and cons of a couple of treatments. Your

> comments on hGC has me wondering. My T values are at the lower

normal

> range, the Free T is off the low end of the scale as is DHT. LH

are

> 3.5 which I understand is normal, but TSH - thyroid stimulating

> hormone (FSH was only measured 3 years ago at 4.2), which was 2.2

3

> years ago has now come down to 1.04 mU/l (normal 0.4 - 5.0). What

> were your values prior to starting your HCG treatment ? And did

you

> try Clomid before HCG ?

>

> Thanks.

>

> Tomas

[Guest guest]

I always wait until after blood draw to take any medications. My last test

the AG went on Thursday morning at 6:30 AM, the blood test was Friday

afternoon about 4:00 PM.

> RE: Re: andro gel

>

>

> Dave the first point I need to make is did you put on the

> AndroGel before the blood test if you did you will get real

> high numbers. I think I told you this before if I did just

> disregard As for going on any TRT it stops your testis from

> making T. it is not over night so sooner or later you testis

> will stop.

> Phil

[Guest guest]

I keep hearing that, but no explanation of why the testosterone system is

different from all the other endocrine glands, or where the studies are.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but that statement is taking as gospel

here and yet in the six months I've been reading the forum there's never

been an explanation, a link, or whatever.

Since no one comes up with one, I'll stop being so lazy about it and see if

I can find it myself...but until I do I'll always read that statement with

more than a bit of skepticism. I refuse to believe that putting even just

one drop of AG on my body daily would shut down the system, yet that's what

your statement says....?

> Re: andro gel

>

>

> Exogenous testosterone will ALWAYS shut down LH and FSH

> production completely REGARDLESS of how high the dosage is.

> It is just a matter of time.

>

[Guest guest]

Dave,

The testosterone system isn't differnt. Maybe more complex, but not

different. If you take thyroid hormone (which I do), it also shuts

down your bodys own production of thyoid hormone. That's because

endocrine systems work on the principle of feedback loops. Messenger

hormones (like LH and FSH)are directly linked to the amount of the

target hormones in your body. When your brain detects that you need

more testosterone, it begins producing LH and FSH. As the T levels in

your body rise, the brain detects that you have enough T and slows

down the production of LH and FSH. This simple mechanism keeps things

in balance. Any time you take T, it interrupts this loop. The brain

does not differentiate between your own T production and that from an

external source. Once it detects that T, it will start to shut down

LH and FSH production, no matter how low it might have been to start

with....

Regards,

K4

> I keep hearing that, but no explanation of why the testosterone

system is

> different from all the other endocrine glands, or where the studies

are.

>

> I'm not trying to be argumentative, but that statement is taking as

gospel

> here and yet in the six months I've been reading the forum there's

never

> been an explanation, a link, or whatever.

>

> Since no one comes up with one, I'll stop being so lazy about it

and see if

> I can find it myself...but until I do I'll always read that

statement with

> more than a bit of skepticism. I refuse to believe that putting

even just

> one drop of AG on my body daily would shut down the system, yet

that's what

> your statement says....?

>

> > Re: andro gel

> >

> >

> > Exogenous testosterone will ALWAYS shut down LH and FSH

> > production completely REGARDLESS of how high the dosage is.

> > It is just a matter of time.

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Dave,

The question is moot for me. My LH & FSH are now barely detectable (<0.3).

Before I started TRT my T was 141; after stopping it for 5 months in 2000 it

was only 65.

Bruce

> I think it's wrong to flat out state, as is frequently done here, that AG is

> always and automatically suppressive. Is there data to support that, or is

> it just observation/anecdote from users here?

[Guest guest]

Most of what I have read about this is from Dr.'s that work for weight lifting

magazines Here is a cut & past that states the use of TRT stops the rhythm of T

being high in the morning. It comes from this link.

http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_format/andropause2002.cfm#Introduction

The injectable synthetic testosterone is esterfied. They are safe, effective,

and the least expensive androgen preparations available. They require an

injection into a large muscle. It is slowly absorbed and last longer. It takes

effect over several days or weeks. Injections eliminate the natural daily

diurnal rhythm of testosterone production-high at night and early morning and

low during the day. Testosterone enanthate and cypionate are forms commonly

used. They have comparable pharmacokinetics. Both result in supra-physiologic

concentration of testosterone for 1 to 4 days after injection. A satisfactory

regimen is to administer 200 mg of one of these esters once every two weeks

intramuscularly, but a more physiologic replacement therapy would be 100 mg of

one of these on a weekly basis.

In this link there is talks of this.

http://www.endotext.com/male/male2/maleframe2.htm

In this link is a lot of links that may help you find what you are looking for.

http://qualitycounts.com/fptestosterone.html

Phil

Dave <daultman@...> wrote:I keep hearing that, but no explanation of

why the testosterone system is

different from all the other endocrine glands, or where the studies are.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but that statement is taking as gospel

here and yet in the six months I've been reading the forum there's never

been an explanation, a link, or whatever.

Since no one comes up with one, I'll stop being so lazy about it and see if

I can find it myself...but until I do I'll always read that statement with

more than a bit of skepticism. I refuse to believe that putting even just

one drop of AG on my body daily would shut down the system, yet that's what

your statement says....?

> Re: andro gel

>

>

> Exogenous testosterone will ALWAYS shut down LH and FSH

> production completely REGARDLESS of how high the dosage is.

> It is just a matter of time.

>

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:22:39 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>Read your message. My doctor wants to start me on

>Androgel 5mg pack a day. It seems that body does not

>create enough testosterone and so estrogen has kicked

>in. I've started to develop excess breast tissue.

This means your testosterone is converting to estrogen. (This is

essentially the only way males make estrogen. you might have better

results blocking this conversion with Arimidex than taking androgel.

The androgel will only increase the amount of estrogen you're making

if you don't block the conversion.

- - - -

Just another albino black sheep

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 21:17:43 -0700, you wrote:

>I keep hearing that, but no explanation of why the testosterone system is

>different from all the other endocrine glands, or where the studies are.

It's got the feedback loop. Think of it as a thermostat for

testosterone. If you're thermostat is broken and read 70 when its 50

its going to turn off the furnace (T production). Taking T is like

putting in a space heater. The thermostat will read 70 and the furnace

will never start.

- - - -

Just another albino black sheep

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 04:42:53 -0000, you wrote:

>Messenger

>hormones (like LH and FSH)are directly linked to the amount of the

>target hormones in your body.

There's actually an additional step. The hypothalamus makes and FSH

and LH Releasing Hormone. It seems the first step in the feedback loop

is in the hypothalamus which then triggers the pituitary production.

- - - -

Just another albino black sheep

[Guest guest]

K4- I understand exactly what you're saying, and it fits right in with my

original post. I also take thyroid hormone, and if I don't take enough to

keep the T3 and T4 levels in the correct range, the TSH (thyroid's

equivalent of LH) output is increased. The more thyroid you take, the lower

TSH goes, to the point of suppressing the thyroid's production of thyroid

hormone. Ask just about anyone on the alt.suppot.thyroid UseNet group about

TSH - they'll tell you the same thing, many people are under treated because

they're put on a replacement dosage that only brings their TSH down to under

5.0 on the lab range...when it should be down around 1.0.

The statement that's made here that I am challenging is " ANY amount of

supplemental testosterone will shut down the gonads, " which has been

repeated by more than one in this very thread.

If you have primary hypogonadism, i.e.., the feedback system is working

properly, but the gonads just can't keep up production high enough to meet

demand, then adding an amount of supplemental testosterone that only just

fills the gap should not shut down the gonads.

If you need 10 T's, but the gonads can only make 5 T's, why on earth would

everyone keep insisting that adding 5 T's (bringing you to the required 10

T's only) shuts down the original 5 T's to begin with. It just doesn't make

sense, and is not the way the thyroid works. As long as you only add the 5

T's (at whatever the proper interval is) any time the feedback loop detects

a drop below 10 T's, LH should be released telling the gonads to make a

little more T. If you had normal gonads and a normal feedback system,

that's exactly how it works. To date there has been no explanation

presented that addresses this.

> Re: andro gel

> > >

> > >

> > > Exogenous testosterone will ALWAYS shut down LH and FSH

> production

> > > completely REGARDLESS of how high the dosage is.

> > > It is just a matter of time.

> > >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Okay, yours is an explanation I can build on to more clearly demonstrate

what I'm saying. I believe what you're describing is secondary

hypogonadism. What if you have primary hypo..i.e., the thermostat works

fine, but the furnace is broken?

Here's the example: It's 50 degrees, the thermostat (aka hypothalamus)

reads 50 degrees, but the furnace (aka gonads) only has enough burners (aka

primary hypo) to pump out enough heat (aka testosterone) to raise the

temperature to 60 degrees. If you add a 10-therm space heater (aka

androgel) that raises the temperature the final 10 degrees to 70, yes, the

thermostat will tell the furnace to stop pumping out heat. But once the

temperature drops below 70, the thermostat will turn the furnace back on,

and the furnace will then produce more heat until the temperature reaches 70

degrees.

As long as you don't add a space heater so large that it totally produces

all the heating requirements of the room, the furnace should come on from

time to time just like normal. On the other hand, if you do overheat the

room with a large space heater for too long (aka too much supplemental

testosterone ala our body building brothers), I can see the furnace rusting

out (or whatever) and not working any more without a little help. That last

scenario is exactly what body builders go through and try to combat with

their cycling of T and Clomid and whatever else they use to stimulate gonad

production after a cycle.

Does my position make sense now? Does everyone still stand by their

position that any amount of androgel, no matter how small, will permanently

shut down natural T production?

> Re: Re: andro gel

>

> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 21:17:43 -0700, you wrote:

>

> >I keep hearing that, but no explanation of why the

> testosterone system

> >is different from all the other endocrine glands, or where

> the studies are.

>

>

> It's got the feedback loop. Think of it as a thermostat for

> testosterone. If you're thermostat is broken and read 70 when

> its 50 its going to turn off the furnace (T production).

> Taking T is like putting in a space heater. The thermostat

> will read 70 and the furnace will never start.

>

> - - - -

> Just another albino black sheep

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:08:06 -0700, you wrote:

>Okay, yours is an explanation I can build on to more clearly demonstrate

>what I'm saying. I believe what you're describing is secondary

>hypogonadism. What if you have primary hypo..i.e., the thermostat works

>fine, but the furnace is broken?

>

>Here's the example: It's 50 degrees, the thermostat (aka hypothalamus)

>reads 50 degrees, but the furnace (aka gonads) only has enough burners (aka

>primary hypo) to pump out enough heat (aka testosterone) to raise the

>temperature to 60 degrees. If you add a 10-therm space heater (aka

>androgel) that raises the temperature the final 10 degrees to 70, yes, the

>thermostat will tell the furnace to stop pumping out heat. But once the

>temperature drops below 70, the thermostat will turn the furnace back on,

>and the furnace will then produce more heat until the temperature reaches 70

>degrees.

>

>As long as you don't add a space heater so large that it totally produces

>all the heating requirements of the room, the furnace should come on from

>time to time just like normal. On the other hand, if you do overheat the

>room with a large space heater for too long (aka too much supplemental

>testosterone ala our body building brothers), I can see the furnace rusting

>out (or whatever) and not working any more without a little help. That last

>scenario is exactly what body builders go through and try to combat with

>their cycling of T and Clomid and whatever else they use to stimulate gonad

>production after a cycle.

>

>Does my position make sense now? Does everyone still stand by their

>position that any amount of androgel, no matter how small, will permanently

>shut down natural T production?

I guess in a partial primary case it might work that way. Though I

think I've read that in such a case the FSH and LH get very high

trying to stimulate more production from the testees. If you haven't

had the high levels you're likely secondary which puts you back in

our first misset thermostat example.

that's how they usually determine primary from secondary hypo-g is by

the high FSH LH.

Now sometimes after doing this for a long time the body just shuts the

FSH LH production down as a waste of time.

If that happens again I'm not sure what adding extra T would do.

- - - -

Just another albino black sheep

[Guest guest]

Hey Dave your argument is interesting and it would be good to find

an accurate explantion as to why this seems to be the case.

I would say it is not so black and white. From my understanding, the

hypo axis is a very complicated balance of many hormones.

Testosterone production can be inhibited not only by testosterone

itself but also by estrogens and dht. Our methods of administration

of exogenous testosterone do not perfectly mirror the bodys methods,

androgel probably being the closest. So perhaps these methods cause

a difference in feedback response via altering the delicate balance

of the other amounts of hormones that also control how much GNRH

and LH and FSH is secreted. It could also be the case that the

administration of testosterone in very small doses to an individual

with a strong healthy hypo axis may not incur such a shutdown as to

someone who has a malfunctioning or weaker hypo axis.

As for instance it is the case that some males who take large doses

of anabolics for bodybuilding bounce back much quicker or without

problem, whereas some suffer longer periods where the hypo axis is

sluggish to restart on its own. I also think that being able to

administer such a fine amount of exogenous testosterone in such a

manner so that the body thinks it is almost identical to endogenous

production, ie in a pulsatile manner, is really not possible yet.

So perhaps it is just too difficult to " TOP UP " with any accuracy in

in regard to the amounts and timing, so the body is effectivley

tricked into thinking that it is natural. Over time the body always

seems to adapt, to what ever we try to do it...

> >

> > >I keep hearing that, but no explanation of why the

> > testosterone system

> > >is different from all the other endocrine glands, or where

> > the studies are.

> >

> >

> > It's got the feedback loop. Think of it as a thermostat for

> > testosterone. If you're thermostat is broken and read 70 when

> > its 50 its going to turn off the furnace (T production).

> > Taking T is like putting in a space heater. The thermostat

> > will read 70 and the furnace will never start.

> >

> > - - - -

> > Just another albino black sheep

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Retro,

I thought the pituitary made LH and FSH?

Mark

---

> There's actually an additional step. The hypothalamus makes and FSH

> and LH Releasing Hormone. It seems the first step in the feedback loop

> is in the hypothalamus which then triggers the pituitary production.

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, I went from 216 to 1022 to 1500, all on 5g Androgel. I suspect the

difference is the cause of the hypogonadism.

> RE: Re: andro gel

>

> I don't know why but when I first went on TRT my levels

> droped from starting on a low dose of T. My first test was

> 120 started on T. a low dose to start with and then it was

> pills. My next test was 75 a month later. So it is back to

> we are not all the same.

> Some men can start on 5 grams of Androgel and go in one month

> from 250 to 750 wile outhers go from 250 to 75. I have seen

> it posted time and time again.

> Phil

[Guest guest]

Something's wrong with your thermostat, but not your furnace, or maybe

both...but definitely your thermostat is part of the problem. If someone's

thermostat is fine, and only the furnace is broken, what I say makes sense.

I'm just trying to get people out of giving what I believe is inaccurate

advice when they say, like everything else, you can never say " always " or

" never, " even though I just said " never. " :-)

I don't believe it's not accurate to say " ANY amount of supplemental

testosterone will ALWAYS shut down the gonads, it's just a matter of time "

as his been posted here many times.

> RE: Re: andro gel

>

> Hi Dave if this were true then why when I started TRT my

> levels went down. I started on a very low dose and it stoped

> my Testis from making more T this showed up in my next blood

> test LH and FSH went way down. This was 20 yrs. ago the Dr.

> told me that taking T. stoped me form making my own T. and he

> had to up the dose.

> Phil

>