Guest guest Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 Hi, Not sure I'm soing this right but figure this might be a good way to determine the daily dose. 20pellets every 4 months X 75mg/pellet = 1500mg/120 days or 12.5mg/day ernestnolan > > Hi, > > > > The pellet dosage I have gotten from Dr. Gambrell is: > > > > Take 30 pounds off the total weight. > > > > For each 10 pounds remaining you get one 75mg pellet with a max > amount > > of 20 pellets. I am over 230 pounds so get the max of 20 pellets. > ------------------------- > Ernest, based on that formula, does that give you the 10mg of T a > day that we seem to require? > thanks > norton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 Hi Norton, On dosage, I think Ernest has a formula based on body weight. I had 6 each 200mg pellets implanted, my weight was 210, last T was 130 (drawn 3 weeks after last injection). My guess is, given a choice between 4 or 5 200mg pellets, go for 5. I think (not certain) that you will see no adverse effects any more than you've seen on gel. Bruce > I met with a doctor who does pellets in women a few months ago. > He has been researching things and called me. He proposes inserting > four or five 200mg " larger " pellets versus a larger number of the > smaller. Any comments or thoughts on this? > Also, I would also like any thoughts on possible weight gain issues > from having a constant flow of T. With the T gel I now have, I can > stop or reduce the dosage anytime, not so on pellets. Or do I have > it wrong, it is not the T that causes water retention, but is it > estrogen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 Hi, My doctor, Dr. Gambrell, Augusta, GA, will talk to other doctors on this subject. You can get his E-MAIL address from his web site: http://www.members.aol.com/gambr999/ He was taught his skills by Dr. Greenblatt, now deceased, at Geogia Medical College, Augusta, GA. Dr. Greenblatt was a pioneer in hormone therapy for both men and women starting in the 50's if I have it right. Pellets have been around since before then and have proven themselves. The pharmaceutical companies can't sell them and the compounding pharmacies that produce pellets do not advertise very much, so you don't see their info in mag.'s and on TV. Check both out on the internet with GOOGLE. Dr. Gambrell's formula is based on his training and experience of treating andropause for decades. Subtract 30 pounds from your total weight and for every 10 pounds remaining, you should get a 75mg pellet. The larger pellets are 200mg so just do the math to see how much you should get. He will not give a man more than 20 pellets or 1500mg which will last typically 4 months. There have been a very few that I have heard about on this web site that had no benefit from their pellets for some unexplained reason. I have not heard of anyone with problems with over dosing because of pellets. A trocar is used to inset 10 at a time under the skin, the doctor may need training with this surgical tool if he is new to this. Some have mentioned pellets coming out of the incision. This leads me to believe they must have been pushed under the skin with tweezers after a scalple made a small cut. The trocar has a chisel like end with a tube up the middle. The tool goes under the skin for about 3 inches moving the pellets well away from the incision. Location is usually on the hip below the belt. Never had any problems with my pellets in more than 10 years. The tool is not supposed to pierce the abdominal wall. Every 4 months we travel down from NY to our sons for a weekend in Raleigh and make a day trip over and back to Augusta from there. Any questions? ernestnolan > I met with a doctor who does pellets in women a few months ago. > He has been researching things and called me. He proposes inserting > four or five 200mg " larger " pellets versus a larger number of the > smaller. Any comments or thoughts on this? > Also, I would also like any thoughts on possible weight gain issues > from having a constant flow of T. With the T gel I now have, I can > stop or reduce the dosage anytime, not so on pellets. Or do I have > it wrong, it is not the T that causes water retention, but is it > estrogen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 --- Hi Ernest, thanks again for the info. Just one final question: what is your present anti estrogen campaign? How much arimidex when, and any other supplements? thanks norton > Hi, > > My doctor, Dr. Gambrell, Augusta, GA, will talk to other doctors on > this subject. > > You can get his E-MAIL address from his web site: > > http://www.members.aol.com/gambr999/ > > He was taught his skills by Dr. Greenblatt, now deceased, at Geogia > Medical College, Augusta, GA. Dr. Greenblatt was a pioneer in hormone > therapy for both men and women starting in the 50's if I have it > right. Pellets have been around since before then and have proven > themselves. The pharmaceutical companies can't sell them and the > compounding pharmacies that produce pellets do not advertise very > much, so you don't see their info in mag.'s and on TV. > > Check both out on the internet with GOOGLE. > > Dr. Gambrell's formula is based on his training and experience of > treating andropause for decades. > > Subtract 30 pounds from your total weight and for every 10 pounds > remaining, you should get a 75mg pellet. The larger pellets are 200mg > so just do the math to see how much you should get. He will not give a > man more than 20 pellets or 1500mg which will last typically 4 months. > > There have been a very few that I have heard about on this web site > that had no benefit from their pellets for some unexplained reason. I > have not heard of anyone with problems with over dosing because of > pellets. > > A trocar is used to inset 10 at a time under the skin, the doctor may > need training with this surgical tool if he is new to this. Some have > mentioned pellets coming out of the incision. This leads me to believe > they must have been pushed under the skin with tweezers after a > scalple made a small cut. The trocar has a chisel like end with a tube > up the middle. The tool goes under the skin for about 3 inches moving > the pellets well away from the incision. Location is usually on the > hip below the belt. Never had any problems with my pellets in more > than 10 years. The tool is not supposed to pierce the abdominal wall. > > Every 4 months we travel down from NY to our sons for a weekend in > Raleigh and make a day trip over and back to Augusta from there. > > Any questions? > > ernestnolan > > > > I met with a doctor who does pellets in women a few months ago. > > He has been researching things and called me. He proposes inserting > > four or five 200mg " larger " pellets versus a larger number of the > > smaller. Any comments or thoughts on this? > > Also, I would also like any thoughts on possible weight gain issues > > from having a constant flow of T. With the T gel I now have, I can > > stop or reduce the dosage anytime, not so on pellets. Or do I have > > it wrong, it is not the T that causes water retention, but is it > > estrogen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 Hi, I never had any problem with E2. The doctor says it's because the release is so gradual the body does not respond with an attempt to reduce the level of T by conversion. Sudden spurts of T that drop back in a few hours is what he says alerts the body to something unusual going on. Others here on the web site have said this can be one of the problems with a man that the body is converting the T to E2 for some reason when it shouldn't causing the bodies level of T to go too low. I think it is safe to say. most receiving pellets do not have a problem with conversion of T to E2. The primary problem I have heard about all TRT is the doctor is usually unwilling to give the patient a large enough amount to raise the body to the high normal range where they can enjoy the benefit of the hormone. ernestnolan > > > I met with a doctor who does pellets in women a few months ago. > > > He has been researching things and called me. He proposes > inserting > > > four or five 200mg " larger " pellets versus a larger number of > the > > > smaller. Any comments or thoughts on this? > > > Also, I would also like any thoughts on possible weight gain > issues > > > from having a constant flow of T. With the T gel I now have, I > can > > > stop or reduce the dosage anytime, not so on pellets. Or do I > have > > > it wrong, it is not the T that causes water retention, but is it > > > estrogen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 Hi, There is nothing to be done except go back in 4 months. My cost is mostly paid by medicare which runs about $450. Think I have to pay about $60. Medicare in other areas does not pick this up. I was asked on one visit if I would allow another doctor to install my pelletts with Dr. gambrell assisting as he was there for some training on how, where and such to install the pellets and inserting the trocar under the skin for about 3 inches. Experinced training with the trocar is essential to using it. ernestnolan > > > I met with a doctor who does pellets in women a few months ago. > > > He has been researching things and called me. He proposes > inserting > > > four or five 200mg " larger " pellets versus a larger number of > the > > > smaller. Any comments or thoughts on this? > > > Also, I would also like any thoughts on possible weight gain > issues > > > from having a constant flow of T. With the T gel I now have, I > can > > > stop or reduce the dosage anytime, not so on pellets. Or do I > have > > > it wrong, it is not the T that causes water retention, but is it > > > estrogen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2005 Report Share Posted August 17, 2005 I did pellets a long time ago and it cost me an arm and a leg. Then to add insult to injury they only worked for one month. $200 to see the Dr. and $650 for the pellets and $150 to have them put in. After a month I felt real bad so the Dr. charged me to have a blood test and do the whole thing over again. $800 more and in 6 weeks I was on my A** again. My BCBS would not pay for it and today still will not pay for it. ernestnolan does them and says he pays $450 for them every 4 months. But lets face it most of the men sick with low T can't afford to fly to Augusta GA to see his Dr. This is just not cost effective to do this. The Dr.'s that do pellets here in my state will not give you 20 pellets like ernestnolan gets and they claim that they will last 4 to 6 months. These Dr.'s are crooks they will only give you less then half of what you need for a high price office visit and and a dam high cost to put them in. Plus none of the Dr.'s take your BCBS because BCBS will not pay for it but they tell you they will, you pay the Dr. and try to get your money from BCBS. So all of this is a waste of time no one as sick as I was could afford this anyway. I was off work on sick leave more then I was at work. In the 21 yr.'s I have been on TRT the Pellets was the worst form of treatment I ever had. Now this is what I went though and my input on this, it is just not cost effective. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2005 Report Share Posted August 17, 2005 > I did pellets a long time ago and it cost me an arm and a leg. Then > to add insult to injury they only worked for one month. $200 to see > the Dr. and $650 for the pellets and $150 to have them put in. > After a month I felt real bad so the Dr. charged me to have a blood > test and do the whole thing over again. $800 more and in 6 weeks I > was on my A** again. My BCBS would not pay for it and today still > will not pay for it. > > ernestnolan does them and says he pays $450 for them every 4 > months. But lets face it most of the men sick with low T can't > afford to fly to Augusta GA to see his Dr. This is just not cost > effective to do this. ______________________________________ I believe Ernest has said that he himself does not pay for the pellets, the government pays for it through his medicare benefit. I suppose there is no way of knowing if Ernest would pony up that mucn money four times a year if it came out of his own pocket. However, he swears by the pellets and his doctor. Good! However, is has to be significant that of all the members on this forum, essentially only Ernest is on pellets. Besides Philip's bad pellet experience as posted above, I seem to recall at least two other forum members who also tried pellets, with unsatifactory results. Norton > > The Dr.'s that do pellets here in my state will not give you 20 > pellets like ernestnolan gets and they claim that they will last 4 > to 6 months. These Dr.'s are crooks they will only give you less > then half of what you need for a high price office visit and and a > dam high cost to put them in. > > Plus none of the Dr.'s take your BCBS because BCBS will not pay for > it but they tell you they will, you pay the Dr. and try to get your > money from BCBS. > > So all of this is a waste of time no one as sick as I was could > afford this anyway. I was off work on sick leave more then I was at > work. In the 21 yr.'s I have been on TRT the Pellets was the worst > form of treatment I ever had. > > Now this is what I went though and my input on this, it is just not > cost effective. > Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2005 Report Share Posted August 17, 2005 Cost is a serious issue regarding pellets, the greatest drawback in fact and the most significant reason by far as to why they are currently on the wane. This is a major issue and one that could see a nail in the cofin of this therapy. Despite the odd horror story, something you will find with all forms of TRT, the fact is the continuation rates on this form of treatment shows conclusively that the people who are on them, are by and large extremely happy with them, so much so that they very rarely decide to move onto other forms of treatment. There cannot be too many people unhappy with them when the percentage of people that decide to stay on them is over 90%. Their safety is also not in question with over 60 years of use proving their efficacy, something that cannot be said for other forms of TRT- the transdermals for instance are a total unknown when it comes to their long term use. Dosing is another issue and one that can be a genuine short term problem. This could be a big stumbling block for some. Particularly like with any treatment if you have a doctor who is unsure as to what dose of TRT you should be on. Extrusions are rare (if the doctor is any good) but possible and pellets would need to be taken out if the individual was to be found to have prostate cancer. But as everyone knows TRT does not cause prostate cancer- 60 years worth of use shows us that pellets in particular are very safe. Now all that said. If every single guy here chooses to think they are a crock and decides to discount then- cool, hunky dory, A-OK. But they will now do so having a balanced picture. I am not in the slightest bit concerned as to the decisions reached, just with the relaying of a balanced picture. I have no personal investment here, i haven't bought shares in pellets:) I would defend any treatment that I felt was getting a one sided unfair press/rough ride. I think it is far too easy when looking at the differing treatments out there to start looking at matters in terms of black and white. If we do that and we don't present all the pros and cons of each treatment we effectively restrict peoples ability to make informed choices. If I was taking matters personaly then I would be attacking Androgel as it did not agree with me and I wouldn't be commenting on pellets at all. But I am not attacking Androgel, just as I will not attack I.M or pellets or generally any treatment that happens to be safe. I will present all the facts good and bad and let the individual decide what treatment they think is right for them- that is just common sense reasonable behavior. If anyone doubts my honesty here I would like them to go and find a single post on this website where I have championed one form of treatment over another or in fact ever previously commented on this particular form of TRT. P.S Remember you never present the whole picture if you do not present all the facts, both the pros and the cons. > > I did pellets a long time ago and it cost me an arm and a leg. > Then > > to add insult to injury they only worked for one month. $200 to > see > > the Dr. and $650 for the pellets and $150 to have them put in. > > After a month I felt real bad so the Dr. charged me to have a > blood > > test and do the whole thing over again. $800 more and in 6 weeks > I > > was on my A** again. My BCBS would not pay for it and today still > > will not pay for it. > > > > ernestnolan does them and says he pays $450 for them every 4 > > months. But lets face it most of the men sick with low T can't > > afford to fly to Augusta GA to see his Dr. This is just not cost > > effective to do this. > ______________________________________ > I believe Ernest has said that he himself does not pay for the > pellets, the government pays for it through his medicare benefit. > I suppose there is no way of knowing if Ernest would pony up that > mucn money four times a year if it came out of his own pocket. > However, he swears by the pellets and his doctor. Good! > However, is has to be significant that of all the members on this > forum, essentially only Ernest is on pellets. Besides Philip's bad > pellet experience as posted above, I seem to recall at least two > other forum members who also tried pellets, with unsatifactory > results. > Norton > > > > The Dr.'s that do pellets here in my state will not give you 20 > > pellets like ernestnolan gets and they claim that they will last 4 > > to 6 months. These Dr.'s are crooks they will only give you less > > then half of what you need for a high price office visit and and a > > dam high cost to put them in. > > > > Plus none of the Dr.'s take your BCBS because BCBS will not pay > for > > it but they tell you they will, you pay the Dr. and try to get > your > > money from BCBS. > > > > So all of this is a waste of time no one as sick as I was could > > afford this anyway. I was off work on sick leave more then I was > at > > work. In the 21 yr.'s I have been on TRT the Pellets was the > worst > > form of treatment I ever had. > > > > Now this is what I went though and my input on this, it is just > not > > cost effective. > > Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2005 Report Share Posted August 17, 2005 Sorry but I think you're taking his original post completely the wrong way. He wasn't doing a medical dissertation on pellets. He was simply giving his opinion as to why he thought pellets were not a good treatment for TRT based on a post by a board member that accused him of lying about it. This type of reply does not require a balanced presentation as it is a rebuttal opinion piece. Heck, if every time someone on this board gave a contrary opinion about something and had to give the complete counter argument to their opinion just so they could claim balance, no one would post anything because it's likely that no one has that kind of time. I don't mean to lecture (who am I anyhow?) I just don't understand the tone of your reply given the context of his rebuttal post and the nature of a forum like this. The standards you are requesting are bit too high for this kind of communication medium. On a side note: I could choose to consider his replies to my posts as giving my arguments short strife due to his terseness. But I realize that he is very busy and likely doesn't have the time to engage fully in a discussion on a message board. The fact that he read it and replied as he did is enough for me as I was mainly posting to throw ideas out and see if anyone had opinions on them. Albeit, no real discussion can be had with such short replies to posted points but that's okay with me. Good Luck! > > > I did pellets a long time ago and it cost me an arm and a leg. > > Then > > > to add insult to injury they only worked for one month. $200 to > > see > > > the Dr. and $650 for the pellets and $150 to have them put in. > > > After a month I felt real bad so the Dr. charged me to have a > > blood > > > test and do the whole thing over again. $800 more and in 6 > weeks > > I > > > was on my A** again. My BCBS would not pay for it and today > still > > > will not pay for it. > > > > > > ernestnolan does them and says he pays $450 for them every 4 > > > months. But lets face it most of the men sick with low T can't > > > afford to fly to Augusta GA to see his Dr. This is just not > cost > > > effective to do this. > > ______________________________________ > > I believe Ernest has said that he himself does not pay for the > > pellets, the government pays for it through his medicare benefit. > > I suppose there is no way of knowing if Ernest would pony up that > > mucn money four times a year if it came out of his own pocket. > > However, he swears by the pellets and his doctor. Good! > > However, is has to be significant that of all the members on this > > forum, essentially only Ernest is on pellets. Besides Philip's bad > > pellet experience as posted above, I seem to recall at least two > > other forum members who also tried pellets, with unsatifactory > > results. > > Norton > > > > > > The Dr.'s that do pellets here in my state will not give you 20 > > > pellets like ernestnolan gets and they claim that they will last > 4 > > > to 6 months. These Dr.'s are crooks they will only give you > less > > > then half of what you need for a high price office visit and and > a > > > dam high cost to put them in. > > > > > > Plus none of the Dr.'s take your BCBS because BCBS will not pay > > for > > > it but they tell you they will, you pay the Dr. and try to get > > your > > > money from BCBS. > > > > > > So all of this is a waste of time no one as sick as I was could > > > afford this anyway. I was off work on sick leave more then I > was > > at > > > work. In the 21 yr.'s I have been on TRT the Pellets was the > > worst > > > form of treatment I ever had. > > > > > > Now this is what I went though and my input on this, it is just > > not > > > cost effective. > > > Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2005 Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 There is a serious flaw/problem here . The situation that involved the Dr was a considerable time ago and simply off the radar for most people. What most people get to see then is a one sided article about pellets from a Dr. This in turn makes people reading think that pellets are terrible because they haven't seen the whole picture. One person already has stated that they were going to use this form of therapy but have now changed their mind. Hearing all the cons but none of the pros and having the cons blown out of all proportion with hyperbole and spin is like; Well it is like the guy who turned down pellets being on a jury and convicting a man after hearing the prosecution and not hearing the defence. Not only that but Dr J should not be the prosecutor, because he is not supposed to have a vested interest. He should be both prosecution and defence- and then the public should be the jury. You can argue that if it is his opinion that pellets are not a good form of TRT, then he does not have to present the whole picture. I simply do not agree with that, it is too simplistic a view. Of course he can come out on one side or another as to whether he recommends or does not recommend a given form of TRT, but he should be presenting an unbiased, clear and true picture of all treatments. when he is talking on this website he is/will be aware that he is helping people to form opinions and influence people as to which treatments they will consider. This relates to the informed consent that he spoke of. More than anyone here he has an obligation to the people who view this website to present a balanced picture. The very strict blinkered approach of justifying anything said under 'it's opinion' is a ruse, particularly when you are a doctor. In response to Dr J, I see you are not saying that pellets cause prostate cancer, I never said you did say that. I was making my own point which I am perfectly at liberty to do. Your comments were vague to the average lay person and so I was just ensuring that it was widly known that pellets do not cause prostate cancer, just as no form of TRT does. Any possible misinterpretation is no longer, you are talking about rises in PSA, so I will direct my comments to that issue. Question Is there any evidence whatsoever that has ben substantiated in any credible medical journal, that pellets cause a greater rise in PSA levels that HCG, or Androgel etc? I feel evidence here instead of opinion would be most helpful. If you can detail the comparative study with other form of TR that casts pellets in a poor like- I would be most grateful. If you acknowledge that pellets do NOT cause a rise in PSA any more so than other forms of TRT, could you please produce a statistical report that details the number of men that have to have TRT withdrawn because of this issue. You see doctor we know that it is possible for older men to have rises in PSA. We also know that relatively few men have TRT withdrawn because of elevated PSA. How many of the guys here have had their TRT withdrwn for this reason? How many guys here know of people in the forums or anywhere else that has had TRT wihtdrawn because of elevations in PSA. Sure a few guys can probably put their hand up, but not many! Statistically it will be low! In short doctor you are making mountains out of mole hills. You are using hypole and spin at every opportunity to force your opinion/your dislikes/preference down peoples throats. In future why don't you stop doing that and give people all the facts, the whole picture, a balanced approach, the prosecution and the defence if you like. Then simply give your opinion, that you don't like this form of TRT. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with the fact that you do not like this form of treatment and I have absolutely no problem in you stating as much if you do so in a balanced manner!!!!! As a doctor you should have balance! P.S At the end of the day I have no preference for pellets at all, I have neither a fervent wish to see them used or a deep desire to see them abandoned. I simply like to see the unadulterated truth. And I don't like it when I see the truth getting mugged. > > > > I did pellets a long time ago and it cost me an arm and a > leg. > > > Then > > > > to add insult to injury they only worked for one month. $200 > to > > > see > > > > the Dr. and $650 for the pellets and $150 to have them put > in. > > > > After a month I felt real bad so the Dr. charged me to have a > > > blood > > > > test and do the whole thing over again. $800 more and in 6 > > weeks > > > I > > > > was on my A** again. My BCBS would not pay for it and today > > still > > > > will not pay for it. > > > > > > > > ernestnolan does them and says he pays $450 for them every 4 > > > > months. But lets face it most of the men sick with low T > can't > > > > afford to fly to Augusta GA to see his Dr. This is just not > > cost > > > > effective to do this. > > > ______________________________________ > > > I believe Ernest has said that he himself does not pay for the > > > pellets, the government pays for it through his medicare benefit. > > > I suppose there is no way of knowing if Ernest would pony up > that > > > mucn money four times a year if it came out of his own pocket. > > > However, he swears by the pellets and his doctor. Good! > > > However, is has to be significant that of all the members on > this > > > forum, essentially only Ernest is on pellets. Besides Philip's > bad > > > pellet experience as posted above, I seem to recall at least two > > > other forum members who also tried pellets, with unsatifactory > > > results. > > > Norton > > > > > > > > The Dr.'s that do pellets here in my state will not give you > 20 > > > > pellets like ernestnolan gets and they claim that they will > last > > 4 > > > > to 6 months. These Dr.'s are crooks they will only give you > > less > > > > then half of what you need for a high price office visit and > and > > a > > > > dam high cost to put them in. > > > > > > > > Plus none of the Dr.'s take your BCBS because BCBS will not > pay > > > for > > > > it but they tell you they will, you pay the Dr. and try to get > > > your > > > > money from BCBS. > > > > > > > > So all of this is a waste of time no one as sick as I was > could > > > > afford this anyway. I was off work on sick leave more then I > > was > > > at > > > > work. In the 21 yr.'s I have been on TRT the Pellets was the > > > worst > > > > form of treatment I ever had. > > > > > > > > Now this is what I went though and my input on this, it is > just > > > not > > > > cost effective. > > > > Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2005 Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 Okay, well, I understand your point but with that said, I still want to hear his opinion even if it's not balanced to your standards. I personally am confident that someone who is as highly regarded as a specialist in TRT has done adequate research and has developed his opinions based on considerable fact and knowledge. That doesn't mean I accept everything anyone in his station says, as is evident in my replies, but I do give his opinion considerable weight until such time as I have enough personal knowledge to confidently agree or disagree. A level of knowledge you clearly feel you have on this subject and a level of knowledge I am just trying to develop. Unfortunately, by making part of your argument about his lack of balanced and then implying that because he's not balanced he must be wrong in some way is a non sequitur argument to my reading and not only does it NOT add anything to your rebuttal but actually undermines it because it questions motivation. That's why I posted that the tone of your rebuttal was a " turn off " to me. Don't get me wrong, you make good points in your arguments and as a whole I agree with your more scientific approach, just not necessarily on a message board per se or in an opinion piece. If this was a medical journal he was writing for then I would agree with your standards whole-heartedly. That's just my take on it and I respect the fact that there seems to be a history between you two on this subject and I imagine that may be a big factor in this. Cheers! > There is a serious flaw/problem here . > > The situation that involved the Dr was a considerable time ago and > simply off the radar for most people. What most people get to see > then is a one sided article about pellets from a Dr. > > This in turn makes people reading think that pellets are terrible > because they haven't seen the whole picture. > > One person already has stated that they were going to use this form > of therapy but have now changed their mind. > > Hearing all the cons but none of the pros and having the cons blown > out of all proportion with hyperbole and spin is like; > > Well it is like the guy who turned down pellets being on a jury and > convicting a man after hearing the prosecution and not hearing the > defence. > > Not only that but Dr J should not be the prosecutor, because he is > not supposed to have a vested interest. He should be both > prosecution and defence- and then the public should be the jury. > > You can argue that if it is his opinion that pellets are not a good > form of TRT, then he does not have to present the whole picture. > > I simply do not agree with that, it is too simplistic a view. > > Of course he can come out on one side or another as to whether he > recommends or does not recommend a given form of TRT, but he should > be presenting an unbiased, clear and true picture of all treatments. > > when he is talking on this website he is/will be aware that he is > helping people to form opinions and influence people as to which > treatments they will consider. This relates to the informed consent > that he spoke of. > > More than anyone here he has an obligation to the people who view > this website to present a balanced picture. > > The very strict blinkered approach of justifying anything said > under 'it's opinion' is a ruse, particularly when you are a doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2005 Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 When I read a comment worth responding to, I will be happy to. I have to tell you, Dude, you're getting kinda silly about all this. > > > > > I did pellets a long time ago and it cost me an arm and a > > leg. > > > > Then > > > > > to add insult to injury they only worked for one month. > $200 > > to > > > > see > > > > > the Dr. and $650 for the pellets and $150 to have them put > > in. > > > > > After a month I felt real bad so the Dr. charged me to have > a > > > > blood > > > > > test and do the whole thing over again. $800 more and in 6 > > > weeks > > > > I > > > > > was on my A** again. My BCBS would not pay for it and today > > > still > > > > > will not pay for it. > > > > > > > > > > ernestnolan does them and says he pays $450 for them every 4 > > > > > months. But lets face it most of the men sick with low T > > can't > > > > > afford to fly to Augusta GA to see his Dr. This is just not > > > cost > > > > > effective to do this. > > > > ______________________________________ > > > > I believe Ernest has said that he himself does not pay for > the > > > > pellets, the government pays for it through his medicare > benefit. > > > > I suppose there is no way of knowing if Ernest would pony up > > that > > > > mucn money four times a year if it came out of his own pocket. > > > > However, he swears by the pellets and his doctor. Good! > > > > However, is has to be significant that of all the members on > > this > > > > forum, essentially only Ernest is on pellets. Besides Philip's > > bad > > > > pellet experience as posted above, I seem to recall at least > two > > > > other forum members who also tried pellets, with unsatifactory > > > > results. > > > > Norton > > > > > > > > > > The Dr.'s that do pellets here in my state will not give you > > 20 > > > > > pellets like ernestnolan gets and they claim that they will > > last > > > 4 > > > > > to 6 months. These Dr.'s are crooks they will only give you > > > less > > > > > then half of what you need for a high price office visit and > > and > > > a > > > > > dam high cost to put them in. > > > > > > > > > > Plus none of the Dr.'s take your BCBS because BCBS will not > > pay > > > > for > > > > > it but they tell you they will, you pay the Dr. and try to > get > > > > your > > > > > money from BCBS. > > > > > > > > > > So all of this is a waste of time no one as sick as I was > > could > > > > > afford this anyway. I was off work on sick leave more then > I > > > was > > > > at > > > > > work. In the 21 yr.'s I have been on TRT the Pellets was > the > > > > worst > > > > > form of treatment I ever had. > > > > > > > > > > Now this is what I went though and my input on this, it is > > just > > > > not > > > > > cost effective. > > > > > Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2005 Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 I think this is getting old now can we drop this and get on to something better. Phil asaxon67 <no_reply > wrote: Okay, well, I understand your point but with that said, I still want to hear his opinion even if it's not balanced to your standards. I personally am confident that someone who is as highly regarded as a specialist in TRT has done adequate research and has developed his opinions based on considerable fact and knowledge. That doesn't mean I accept everything anyone in his station says, as is evident in my replies, but I do give his opinion considerable weight until such time as I have enough personal knowledge to confidently agree or disagree. A level of knowledge you clearly feel you have on this subject and a level of knowledge I am just trying to develop. Unfortunately, by making part of your argument about his lack of balanced and then implying that because he's not balanced he must be wrong in some way is a non sequitur argument to my reading and not only does it NOT add anything to your rebuttal but actually undermines it because it questions motivation. That's why I posted that the tone of your rebuttal was a " turn off " to me. Don't get me wrong, you make good points in your arguments and as a whole I agree with your more scientific approach, just not necessarily on a message board per se or in an opinion piece. If this was a medical journal he was writing for then I would agree with your standards whole-heartedly. That's just my take on it and I respect the fact that there seems to be a history between you two on this subject and I imagine that may be a big factor in this. Cheers! > There is a serious flaw/problem here . > > The situation that involved the Dr was a considerable time ago and > simply off the radar for most people. What most people get to see > then is a one sided article about pellets from a Dr. > > This in turn makes people reading think that pellets are terrible > because they haven't seen the whole picture. > > One person already has stated that they were going to use this form > of therapy but have now changed their mind. > > Hearing all the cons but none of the pros and having the cons blown > out of all proportion with hyperbole and spin is like; > > Well it is like the guy who turned down pellets being on a jury and > convicting a man after hearing the prosecution and not hearing the > defence. > > Not only that but Dr J should not be the prosecutor, because he is > not supposed to have a vested interest. He should be both > prosecution and defence- and then the public should be the jury. > > You can argue that if it is his opinion that pellets are not a good > form of TRT, then he does not have to present the whole picture. > > I simply do not agree with that, it is too simplistic a view. > > Of course he can come out on one side or another as to whether he > recommends or does not recommend a given form of TRT, but he should > be presenting an unbiased, clear and true picture of all treatments. > > when he is talking on this website he is/will be aware that he is > helping people to form opinions and influence people as to which > treatments they will consider. This relates to the informed consent > that he spoke of. > > More than anyone here he has an obligation to the people who view > this website to present a balanced picture. > > The very strict blinkered approach of justifying anything said > under 'it's opinion' is a ruse, particularly when you are a doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2005 Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 That is a very poor response to yet another serious post. I don't think I am starting to sound silly at all, I think you are very arrogant to suggest I am, when yet again I have gone to trouble of answering the issues you have raised point by point and you have yet again failed substantiate your position in a reciprocal manner. If anyone cares to look through our posts they will find that I have addressed the majority of the issues you have raised point by point, whereas you have just ignored mine. You have waged a negative spoiling campaign where you attacked pellets and my points and yet have offered virtually no answers to questions raised. If anyone cares to closely examine our correspondence they will see that you have offered very little. Like I say I have rebuked your points and you have simply ignored mine. Someone who was so cocksure of their logic and position would surely be able to answer the points raised? The unanswered questions I asked; Where are the detailed patient records over such a period that show that what you are doing has greater efficacy than pellets that you have slated? And you never answered the question/provide what I requested- can you now please do so? I asked; Prove the efficacy of what you are doing is to a similar standard as pellets before casting aspersions on said treatment. Where is THE evidence, where are the patient studies and the accompanying pharmocology reports and graphs that detail and prove the claims you have made in sufficient numbers? Please kindly provide this information to the forum. Hardly a silly question to ask for the evidence of such claims doctor. Please provide the evidence I have requested or do not expect the claims to be taken seriously. Another very legitimate question; Can you please tell me how your protocol if it does work, will benefit people outside of the US who cannot obtain HCG via there healthcare provider? I stated that the world was not your surgery, there are millions of men in the world with hormone problems doctor and you are not going to treat them all. So asking about the treatment those men receive from their doctors, what about the men who are unable to follow a protocol using HCG? Perhaps you can detail what it is that you would do without HCG that would avoid the saw tooth effect of I.M TRT that is not seen with pellets? Again it is so easy to just ignore the question, doctor please provide the answer. I stated I had quote `The pharmacology graphs in front of me for ALL forms of TRT' Unquote And in doing so I stated that pellet were the steadiest form of TRT available. To which you replied quote " ALL FORMS " DONE INCORRRECTLY? Unquote Implying that pellets were not the steadiest form of TRT. I asked a question then that you ignored, so I ask it again. How do you know how if the TRT was administered incorrectly in the studies, when you do not know the source of the studies- as I have not detailed them for you? I then asked another couple of pertinent question that you ignored. Are you saying that all the doctors involved in the world in this form of treatment are wrong, or at least every one that formed part of the studies that. Doctors who you don't know and studies you have not even seen? Are you are a lone bastion of truth and light? Even if you are, can you please tell me how that will help the majority of patients in the world that do not make it into your surgery and require a basic form of TRT? Answers? Regarding an issue with elevation of E2 that are often found on your personal favorite form of TRT the transdermal gels, I asked; I would be very interested to hear how you control it and what your thoughts on the matter are. Can you provide details please? Finally regarding your insinuations regarding the supposed issue that pellets have in relation to PSA levels I asked; Is there any evidence whatsoever that has been substantiated in any credible medical journal, that pellets cause a greater rise in PSA levels than HCG, Androgel, I.M etc, if so can you kindly provide it? If you acknowledge that pellets do NOT cause a rise in PSA any more so than other forms of TRT, could you please produce a statistical report that details the number of men that have to have TRT withdrawn because of this issue? This is so we can see if PSA levels are a real issue and concern in reference to pellets or just a slur that you cannot substantiate. I answered all of your questions with ease, or at least 90% of them. Instead of calling me silly (going negative- barn burning, you would do well to answer my questions, that is of course if you are capable of doing so. You are trying to trade off of the fact that you are a doctor again. Trying to imply that I am a fool for not taking you at your word. You are trying to make this a credibility issue. So my assertion here and following question is very important as it helps establish just who is credible on this one issue. Like I said my information comes originally verbatim from a doctor whom I believe to be vastly more experienced and qualified than yourself. Dr Malcolm Carruthers M.D, FRCPATH, MRCGP Can you please detail what your qualifications are, and confirm or deny that the opinions that I have laid out are from a source with greater experience and qualifications in this field. You see it is easy to say I am a fool and I may just be:) but on this one issue, when I am reiterating the opinions of doctor who has superior experience and qualifications- it brings your credibility into question on this issue- not mine. P.S Guys I am sorry to carry this on, but I am not letting this lie when I am being insulted by a man whose points I have taken the time to answer but who has without anyone noticing it, almost managed to avoid almost every single point I have raised. Let's see him adequately answer the points in turn or by not doing so show the inadequacy of his position. The point of all this/my contention I aim to show there are pros and cons to all these meds and that this doctor is making claims that he cannot substantiate with any evidence at all. Stopping the truth form getting mugged:) And I still don't rate pellets any higher or any lower than I.M or transdermals. .........I await a response in the knowledge that he will almost certainly not answer the questions, not defend the position but rather attack me instead. > > > > > > I did pellets a long time ago and it cost me an arm and a > > > leg. > > > > > Then > > > > > > to add insult to injury they only worked for one month. > > $200 > > > to > > > > > see > > > > > > the Dr. and $650 for the pellets and $150 to have them put > > > in. > > > > > > After a month I felt real bad so the Dr. charged me to > have > > a > > > > > blood > > > > > > test and do the whole thing over again. $800 more and in > 6 > > > > weeks > > > > > I > > > > > > was on my A** again. My BCBS would not pay for it and > today > > > > still > > > > > > will not pay for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > ernestnolan does them and says he pays $450 for them every > 4 > > > > > > months. But lets face it most of the men sick with low T > > > can't > > > > > > afford to fly to Augusta GA to see his Dr. This is just > not > > > > cost > > > > > > effective to do this. > > > > > ______________________________________ > > > > > I believe Ernest has said that he himself does not pay for > > the > > > > > pellets, the government pays for it through his medicare > > benefit. > > > > > I suppose there is no way of knowing if Ernest would pony up > > > that > > > > > mucn money four times a year if it came out of his own > pocket. > > > > > However, he swears by the pellets and his doctor. Good! > > > > > However, is has to be significant that of all the members on > > > this > > > > > forum, essentially only Ernest is on pellets. Besides > Philip's > > > bad > > > > > pellet experience as posted above, I seem to recall at least > > two > > > > > other forum members who also tried pellets, with > unsatifactory > > > > > results. > > > > > Norton > > > > > > > > > > > > The Dr.'s that do pellets here in my state will not give > you > > > 20 > > > > > > pellets like ernestnolan gets and they claim that they > will > > > last > > > > 4 > > > > > > to 6 months. These Dr.'s are crooks they will only give > you > > > > less > > > > > > then half of what you need for a high price office visit > and > > > and > > > > a > > > > > > dam high cost to put them in. > > > > > > > > > > > > Plus none of the Dr.'s take your BCBS because BCBS will > not > > > pay > > > > > for > > > > > > it but they tell you they will, you pay the Dr. and try to > > get > > > > > your > > > > > > money from BCBS. > > > > > > > > > > > > So all of this is a waste of time no one as sick as I was > > > could > > > > > > afford this anyway. I was off work on sick leave more > then > > I > > > > was > > > > > at > > > > > > work. In the 21 yr.'s I have been on TRT the Pellets was > > the > > > > > worst > > > > > > form of treatment I ever had. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this is what I went though and my input on this, it is > > > just > > > > > not > > > > > > cost effective. > > > > > > Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2005 Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 > P.S > > > Guys I am sorry to carry this on, but I am not letting this lie when > I am being insulted by a man whose points I have taken the time to > answer but who has without anyone noticing it, almost managed to > avoid almost every single point I have raised. > > Let's see him adequately answer the points in turn or by not doing > so show the inadequacy of his position. > > I'm going to give Dr. an opportunity to respond when he returns. Other than that I think this subject has run its course and needs to end. Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2005 Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 Don't you know how to read? Why are you implying thigs were said that clearly were not, as evidenced by the original post that is attached to your reply? I never said a word when some people were pimping pellets and subtly denigrating other forms of treatment, while providing no EVIDENCE they were better (Note the word EVIDENCE. Look it up and see what it means. Then look up ASSERTION, and contemplate the measing of the first syllable). Dr. J provided the regimen I am currently on. Not that he knows it, I looked through dozens of websites and read hundreds of posts here before I made a choice. The idea here is for treatment to be affordable for EVERYONE. Pellets do not address the lack of LH you will experience on TRT. Leaving that aside for the moment, a YEAR's treatment injecting depo AND hCG will cost me 330 dollars. If I can live without hCG (and I personally can't imagine it) I can be successfully treated for $120 a YEAR. That just happens to be 7.5% the cost of treatment with pellets. So what you're telling me is, pellets are TEN TIMES better than injections? Odd, considering many more people use injections than pellets. Also, I have one painless shot a week, which I do at my convenience, that takes about 20-30 seconds to do. You're telling me pellets are more convenient that THAT? I mean, in Virginia we have to put on pants to go to the doctor - but I don't have to do that to get my T, it's mailed to my door. Seriously man, I am not slamming you. Really, do some research and get the facts. I feel better now than I have in many years, thanks to my doc, Dr. Hulinsky who I believe posted here recently. You know what trait he shares with Dr. J? Neither of them believe they have " THE ANSWER " for TRT therapy. Instead they stay abreast of the latest knowledge in the field. In Dr. J's case, he is an innovator, CREATING knowledge in the field. His treatments change as the state of the art advances. Someone who has used the exact same method for many years is not trying very hard, in my opinion. Louis Nardozi > Message: 9 > Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:12:47 -0000 > From: " chis_az " <chis_az@...> > Subject: Re: Pellets > > There is a serious flaw/problem here . > > The situation that involved the Dr was a considerable time ago and > simply off the radar for most people. What most people get to see > then is a one sided article about pellets from a Dr. > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.12/75 - Release Date: 8/17/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2005 Report Share Posted August 19, 2005 This is really getting old. Wake me up when it's over. Re: Pellets That is a very poor response to yet another serious post. I don't think I am starting to sound silly at all, I think you are very arrogant to suggest I am, when yet again I have gone to trouble of answering the issues you have raised point by point and you have yet again failed substantiate your position in a reciprocal manner. If anyone cares to look through our posts they will find that I have addressed the majority of the issues you have raised point by point, whereas you have just ignored mine. You have waged a negative spoiling campaign where you attacked pellets and my points and yet have offered virtually no answers to questions raised. If anyone cares to closely examine our correspondence they will see that you have offered very little. Like I say I have rebuked your points and you have simply ignored mine. Someone who was so cocksure of their logic and position would surely be able to answer the points raised? The unanswered questions I asked; Where are the detailed patient records over such a period that show that what you are doing has greater efficacy than pellets that you have slated? And you never answered the question/provide what I requested- can you now please do so? I asked; Prove the efficacy of what you are doing is to a similar standard as pellets before casting aspersions on said treatment. Where is THE evidence, where are the patient studies and the accompanying pharmocology reports and graphs that detail and prove the claims you have made in sufficient numbers? Please kindly provide this information to the forum. Hardly a silly question to ask for the evidence of such claims doctor. Please provide the evidence I have requested or do not expect the claims to be taken seriously. Another very legitimate question; Can you please tell me how your protocol if it does work, will benefit people outside of the US who cannot obtain HCG via there healthcare provider? I stated that the world was not your surgery, there are millions of men in the world with hormone problems doctor and you are not going to treat them all. So asking about the treatment those men receive from their doctors, what about the men who are unable to follow a protocol using HCG? Perhaps you can detail what it is that you would do without HCG that would avoid the saw tooth effect of I.M TRT that is not seen with pellets? Again it is so easy to just ignore the question, doctor please provide the answer. I stated I had quote `The pharmacology graphs in front of me for ALL forms of TRT' Unquote And in doing so I stated that pellet were the steadiest form of TRT available. To which you replied quote " ALL FORMS " DONE INCORRRECTLY? Unquote Implying that pellets were not the steadiest form of TRT. I asked a question then that you ignored, so I ask it again. How do you know how if the TRT was administered incorrectly in the studies, when you do not know the source of the studies- as I have not detailed them for you? I then asked another couple of pertinent question that you ignored. Are you saying that all the doctors involved in the world in this form of treatment are wrong, or at least every one that formed part of the studies that. Doctors who you don't know and studies you have not even seen? Are you are a lone bastion of truth and light? Even if you are, can you please tell me how that will help the majority of patients in the world that do not make it into your surgery and require a basic form of TRT? Answers? Regarding an issue with elevation of E2 that are often found on your personal favorite form of TRT the transdermal gels, I asked; I would be very interested to hear how you control it and what your thoughts on the matter are. Can you provide details please? Finally regarding your insinuations regarding the supposed issue that pellets have in relation to PSA levels I asked; Is there any evidence whatsoever that has been substantiated in any credible medical journal, that pellets cause a greater rise in PSA levels than HCG, Androgel, I.M etc, if so can you kindly provide it? If you acknowledge that pellets do NOT cause a rise in PSA any more so than other forms of TRT, could you please produce a statistical report that details the number of men that have to have TRT withdrawn because of this issue? This is so we can see if PSA levels are a real issue and concern in reference to pellets or just a slur that you cannot substantiate. I answered all of your questions with ease, or at least 90% of them. Instead of calling me silly (going negative- barn burning, you would do well to answer my questions, that is of course if you are capable of doing so. You are trying to trade off of the fact that you are a doctor again. Trying to imply that I am a fool for not taking you at your word. You are trying to make this a credibility issue. So my assertion here and following question is very important as it helps establish just who is credible on this one issue. Like I said my information comes originally verbatim from a doctor whom I believe to be vastly more experienced and qualified than yourself. Dr Malcolm Carruthers M.D, FRCPATH, MRCGP Can you please detail what your qualifications are, and confirm or deny that the opinions that I have laid out are from a source with greater experience and qualifications in this field. You see it is easy to say I am a fool and I may just be:) but on this one issue, when I am reiterating the opinions of doctor who has superior experience and qualifications- it brings your credibility into question on this issue- not mine. P.S Guys I am sorry to carry this on, but I am not letting this lie when I am being insulted by a man whose points I have taken the time to answer but who has without anyone noticing it, almost managed to avoid almost every single point I have raised. Let's see him adequately answer the points in turn or by not doing so show the inadequacy of his position. The point of all this/my contention I aim to show there are pros and cons to all these meds and that this doctor is making claims that he cannot substantiate with any evidence at all. Stopping the truth form getting mugged:) And I still don't rate pellets any higher or any lower than I.M or transdermals. .........I await a response in the knowledge that he will almost certainly not answer the questions, not defend the position but rather attack me instead. > > > > > > I did pellets a long time ago and it cost me an arm and a > > > leg. > > > > > Then > > > > > > to add insult to injury they only worked for one month. > > $200 > > > to > > > > > see > > > > > > the Dr. and $650 for the pellets and $150 to have them put > > > in. > > > > > > After a month I felt real bad so the Dr. charged me to > have > > a > > > > > blood > > > > > > test and do the whole thing over again. $800 more and in > 6 > > > > weeks > > > > > I > > > > > > was on my A** again. My BCBS would not pay for it and > today > > > > still > > > > > > will not pay for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > ernestnolan does them and says he pays $450 for them every > 4 > > > > > > months. But lets face it most of the men sick with low T > > > can't > > > > > > afford to fly to Augusta GA to see his Dr. This is just > not > > > > cost > > > > > > effective to do this. > > > > > ______________________________________ > > > > > I believe Ernest has said that he himself does not pay for > > the > > > > > pellets, the government pays for it through his medicare > > benefit. > > > > > I suppose there is no way of knowing if Ernest would pony up > > > that > > > > > mucn money four times a year if it came out of his own > pocket. > > > > > However, he swears by the pellets and his doctor. Good! > > > > > However, is has to be significant that of all the members on > > > this > > > > > forum, essentially only Ernest is on pellets. Besides > Philip's > > > bad > > > > > pellet experience as posted above, I seem to recall at least > > two > > > > > other forum members who also tried pellets, with > unsatifactory > > > > > results. > > > > > Norton > > > > > > > > > > > > The Dr.'s that do pellets here in my state will not give > you > > > 20 > > > > > > pellets like ernestnolan gets and they claim that they > will > > > last > > > > 4 > > > > > > to 6 months. These Dr.'s are crooks they will only give > you > > > > less > > > > > > then half of what you need for a high price office visit > and > > > and > > > > a > > > > > > dam high cost to put them in. > > > > > > > > > > > > Plus none of the Dr.'s take your BCBS because BCBS will > not > > > pay > > > > > for > > > > > > it but they tell you they will, you pay the Dr. and try to > > get > > > > > your > > > > > > money from BCBS. > > > > > > > > > > > > So all of this is a waste of time no one as sick as I was > > > could > > > > > > afford this anyway. I was off work on sick leave more > then > > I > > > > was > > > > > at > > > > > > work. In the 21 yr.'s I have been on TRT the Pellets was > > the > > > > > worst > > > > > > form of treatment I ever had. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this is what I went though and my input on this, it is > > > just > > > > > not > > > > > > cost effective. > > > > > > Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2005 Report Share Posted August 19, 2005 Louis I have not made a single post to you. I have not said you have said anything, because I simply haven't spoke to you. I replied to Dr J, Brad and in my posts. Please re-read and you will see. Your critisisms of me are not called for as you have simply made a mistake. If you care to re-read my posts you will not only see that I have never quoted you, spoke to you at all, but you will also see that I have never claimed pellets are better than IM or transdermal TRT. I have said countless times that I am defending pellets for the one reason that they were given a very unblanced/untruthful press by Dr J. I was redressing this and in doing so giving the full picture and balance- the full facts- the truth. I would do the say for any other treatment. If he had given a one-sided unbalanced appraisal of I.M injections or transdermal TRT, I would have had the same argument. The only argument is one of giving the full picture, all the facts about treatments, the pros and the cons. I am defending the truth! I agree with you that the costs of pellets is a major issue, to some downright prohibitive. Where there are genuine critisisms like the one you have made regarding cost on this and any other form of TRT I will agree and nod my head as I have no ownership or vested interest in any one treatment over another. Likewise when there are positives to be found in each treatment that needs to be raised also, and shouldn't be ignored or glossed over. Only by giving the full picture, the pros and the cons- the truth about all forms of TRT can people truly make informed choices about what is right for them. Please understand I am not forwarding an argument for pellets. Just arguing that they have good points as well as bad like any other form of TRT. > > > Don't you know how to read? Why are you implying thigs were said that > clearly were not, as evidenced by the original post that is attached to > your reply? I never said a word when some people were pimping pellets > and subtly denigrating other forms of treatment, while providing no > EVIDENCE they were better (Note the word EVIDENCE. Look it up and see > what it means. Then look up ASSERTION, and contemplate the measing of > the first syllable). > Dr. J provided the regimen I am currently on. Not that he knows it, I > looked through dozens of websites and read hundreds of posts here before > I made a choice. > The idea here is for treatment to be affordable for EVERYONE. Pellets do > not address the lack of LH you will experience on TRT. Leaving that > aside for the moment, a YEAR's treatment injecting depo AND hCG will > cost me 330 dollars. If I can live without hCG (and I personally can't > imagine it) I can be successfully treated for $120 a YEAR. That just > happens to be 7.5% the cost of treatment with pellets. So what you're > telling me is, pellets are TEN TIMES better than injections? Odd, > considering many more people use injections than pellets. Also, I have > one painless shot a week, which I do at my convenience, that takes about > 20-30 seconds to do. You're telling me pellets are more convenient that > THAT? I mean, in Virginia we have to put on pants to go to the doctor - > but I don't have to do that to get my T, it's mailed to my door. > Seriously man, I am not slamming you. Really, do some research and get > the facts. I feel better now than I have in many years, thanks to my > doc, Dr. Hulinsky who I believe posted here recently. You know what > trait he shares with Dr. J? Neither of them believe they have " THE > ANSWER " for TRT therapy. Instead they stay abreast of the latest > knowledge in the field. In Dr. J's case, he is an innovator, CREATING > knowledge in the field. His treatments change as the state of the art > advances. Someone who has used the exact same method for many years is > not trying very hard, in my opinion. > > > Louis Nardozi > > > > Message: 9 > > Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:12:47 -0000 > > From: " chis_az " <chis_az@y...> > > Subject: Re: Pellets > > > > There is a serious flaw/problem here . > > > > The situation that involved the Dr was a considerable time ago and > > simply off the radar for most people. What most people get to see > > then is a one sided article about pellets from a Dr. > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.12/75 - Release Date: 8/17/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2005 Report Share Posted August 19, 2005 I just stopped reading it. Phil brkr13570@... wrote: This is really getting old. Wake me up when it's over. Re: Pellets That is a very poor response to yet another serious post. I don't think I am starting to sound silly at all, I think you are very arrogant to suggest I am, when yet again I have gone to trouble of answering the issues you have raised point by point and you have yet again failed substantiate your position in a reciprocal manner. If anyone cares to look through our posts they will find that I have addressed the majority of the issues you have raised point by point, whereas you have just ignored mine. You have waged a negative spoiling campaign where you attacked pellets and my points and yet have offered virtually no answers to questions raised. If anyone cares to closely examine our correspondence they will see that you have offered very little. Like I say I have rebuked your points and you have simply ignored mine. Someone who was so cocksure of their logic and position would surely be able to answer the points raised? The unanswered questions I asked; Where are the detailed patient records over such a period that show that what you are doing has greater efficacy than pellets that you have slated? And you never answered the question/provide what I requested- can you now please do so? I asked; Prove the efficacy of what you are doing is to a similar standard as pellets before casting aspersions on said treatment. Where is THE evidence, where are the patient studies and the accompanying pharmocology reports and graphs that detail and prove the claims you have made in sufficient numbers? Please kindly provide this information to the forum. Hardly a silly question to ask for the evidence of such claims doctor. Please provide the evidence I have requested or do not expect the claims to be taken seriously. Another very legitimate question; Can you please tell me how your protocol if it does work, will benefit people outside of the US who cannot obtain HCG via there healthcare provider? I stated that the world was not your surgery, there are millions of men in the world with hormone problems doctor and you are not going to treat them all. So asking about the treatment those men receive from their doctors, what about the men who are unable to follow a protocol using HCG? Perhaps you can detail what it is that you would do without HCG that would avoid the saw tooth effect of I.M TRT that is not seen with pellets? Again it is so easy to just ignore the question, doctor please provide the answer. I stated I had quote `The pharmacology graphs in front of me for ALL forms of TRT' Unquote And in doing so I stated that pellet were the steadiest form of TRT available. To which you replied quote " ALL FORMS " DONE INCORRRECTLY? Unquote Implying that pellets were not the steadiest form of TRT. I asked a question then that you ignored, so I ask it again. How do you know how if the TRT was administered incorrectly in the studies, when you do not know the source of the studies- as I have not detailed them for you? I then asked another couple of pertinent question that you ignored. Are you saying that all the doctors involved in the world in this form of treatment are wrong, or at least every one that formed part of the studies that. Doctors who you don't know and studies you have not even seen? Are you are a lone bastion of truth and light? Even if you are, can you please tell me how that will help the majority of patients in the world that do not make it into your surgery and require a basic form of TRT? Answers? Regarding an issue with elevation of E2 that are often found on your personal favorite form of TRT the transdermal gels, I asked; I would be very interested to hear how you control it and what your thoughts on the matter are. Can you provide details please? Finally regarding your insinuations regarding the supposed issue that pellets have in relation to PSA levels I asked; Is there any evidence whatsoever that has been substantiated in any credible medical journal, that pellets cause a greater rise in PSA levels than HCG, Androgel, I.M etc, if so can you kindly provide it? If you acknowledge that pellets do NOT cause a rise in PSA any more so than other forms of TRT, could you please produce a statistical report that details the number of men that have to have TRT withdrawn because of this issue? This is so we can see if PSA levels are a real issue and concern in reference to pellets or just a slur that you cannot substantiate. I answered all of your questions with ease, or at least 90% of them. Instead of calling me silly (going negative- barn burning, you would do well to answer my questions, that is of course if you are capable of doing so. You are trying to trade off of the fact that you are a doctor again. Trying to imply that I am a fool for not taking you at your word. You are trying to make this a credibility issue. So my assertion here and following question is very important as it helps establish just who is credible on this one issue. Like I said my information comes originally verbatim from a doctor whom I believe to be vastly more experienced and qualified than yourself. Dr Malcolm Carruthers M.D, FRCPATH, MRCGP Can you please detail what your qualifications are, and confirm or deny that the opinions that I have laid out are from a source with greater experience and qualifications in this field. You see it is easy to say I am a fool and I may just be:) but on this one issue, when I am reiterating the opinions of doctor who has superior experience and qualifications- it brings your credibility into question on this issue- not mine. P.S Guys I am sorry to carry this on, but I am not letting this lie when I am being insulted by a man whose points I have taken the time to answer but who has without anyone noticing it, almost managed to avoid almost every single point I have raised. Let's see him adequately answer the points in turn or by not doing so show the inadequacy of his position. The point of all this/my contention I aim to show there are pros and cons to all these meds and that this doctor is making claims that he cannot substantiate with any evidence at all. Stopping the truth form getting mugged:) And I still don't rate pellets any higher or any lower than I.M or transdermals. .........I await a response in the knowledge that he will almost certainly not answer the questions, not defend the position but rather attack me instead. > > > > > > I did pellets a long time ago and it cost me an arm and a > > > leg. > > > > > Then > > > > > > to add insult to injury they only worked for one month. > > $200 > > > to > > > > > see > > > > > > the Dr. and $650 for the pellets and $150 to have them put > > > in. > > > > > > After a month I felt real bad so the Dr. charged me to > have > > a > > > > > blood > > > > > > test and do the whole thing over again. $800 more and in > 6 > > > > weeks > > > > > I > > > > > > was on my A** again. My BCBS would not pay for it and > today > > > > still > > > > > > will not pay for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > ernestnolan does them and says he pays $450 for them every > 4 > > > > > > months. But lets face it most of the men sick with low T > > > can't > > > > > > afford to fly to Augusta GA to see his Dr. This is just > not > > > > cost > > > > > > effective to do this. > > > > > ______________________________________ > > > > > I believe Ernest has said that he himself does not pay for > > the > > > > > pellets, the government pays for it through his medicare > > benefit. > > > > > I suppose there is no way of knowing if Ernest would pony up > > > that > > > > > mucn money four times a year if it came out of his own > pocket. > > > > > However, he swears by the pellets and his doctor. Good! > > > > > However, is has to be significant that of all the members on > > > this > > > > > forum, essentially only Ernest is on pellets. Besides > Philip's > > > bad > > > > > pellet experience as posted above, I seem to recall at least > > two > > > > > other forum members who also tried pellets, with > unsatifactory > > > > > results. > > > > > Norton > > > > > > > > > > > > The Dr.'s that do pellets here in my state will not give > you > > > 20 > > > > > > pellets like ernestnolan gets and they claim that they > will > > > last > > > > 4 > > > > > > to 6 months. These Dr.'s are crooks they will only give > you > > > > less > > > > > > then half of what you need for a high price office visit > and > > > and > > > > a > > > > > > dam high cost to put them in. > > > > > > > > > > > > Plus none of the Dr.'s take your BCBS because BCBS will > not > > > pay > > > > > for > > > > > > it but they tell you they will, you pay the Dr. and try to > > get > > > > > your > > > > > > money from BCBS. > > > > > > > > > > > > So all of this is a waste of time no one as sick as I was > > > could > > > > > > afford this anyway. I was off work on sick leave more > then > > I > > > > was > > > > > at > > > > > > work. In the 21 yr.'s I have been on TRT the Pellets was > > the > > > > > worst > > > > > > form of treatment I ever had. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this is what I went though and my input on this, it is > > > just > > > > > not > > > > > > cost effective. > > > > > > Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 y, I am new to pellets and on my first real trial or second as the first were rejected after 2 weeks due to manner of implantation. I am in Canada where the pellets aren't available and no one really knows what they are doing. I had the pellets pulled under local and didn't feel a thing. Some deal when they were put in. As for dosing not being able to be changed that is bull. The T dose in pellets is determined by surface area which is constantly decreasing after implantation. In addition you can always pull one or two pellet. After watching my test results the doctor said I was too high and asked me to have one pellet pulled. My guy did it with a small incision over an isolated pellet and the whole thing took 5 minutes. In a week we will redo the labs and see what my levels are then. If need be we can always pull another one. Yes it results in a little more scarring but I am covered in scars and don't really mind. Once my estrodial is at a better level we can be comfortable that is the right dose for me. On a side note my anxiety levels dropped quite a bit over the next few days after removal and I am thinking that 5 pellets or 1000sq mm is providing enough of a dose. However I reserve judgment until I can compare my current status to my status on lower estrodial levels. It is a more intensive process to find the correct pellet dose but that doesn't mean it is impossible or that you have to wait a whole cycle before changing dose. You can either start small i.e. 600mg and implant more if you need it or start at 1200mg and remove as needed. The cost of pellets doesn't need to be as high as it is. Think about it, the cost of a single bottle of cypionate has about as much testosterone as a course of pellets and has to be further esterfied which should raise the price from pure testosterone. Since I can get a bottle of T for about 40 bucks, why is it costing so much more? Sure it has to be melted and formed in certain conditions but certainly not at rate of ten times the raw material price. They are basically making tiny candles under sterile conditions. Apart from the actual product you are being robbed by your doctors. In the body modification world being implanted doesn't cost as much and if something goes wrong all your follow up with the artist is free. Any specialist whether medical or not should stand behind their product. The cost problem is related to the idea that there aren't standards that should be followed. I don't care if you are a doctor you don't have the right to bleed your patients dry just to fill your pockets. trannyboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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