Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 one possible side effect are " tracers " . imagine little blobs floating around in your vision. ie, like if you looked at a light bulb too long and get those little floater things. i don't know how common this side effect is, but i know of it happening to two people directly. not trying to scare, just thought i'd let you know. im sure that there are some other people on htis board who can give you some more good info...best of luck tom > Hey Guys > > Well thanks to Dr. Schwartz (thanks Bruce!!!) i've finally narrowed > down my low T problem. My LH levels are SUPER low. Doc put me on > Clomid (been taking it 5 days now) and i have to go get more > bloodwork to see if its doing what it should. Doc had me get an MRI > of my head just to rule out any tumors. > > For those taking clomid for low LH how long did it take to see any > kind of results? Any side effects longterm i should be on the > lookout for? > > Thanks!! > > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Watch out for tracers in your vision. If you get those, stop clomid immediately because they can be permanent and they are a possible side effect of Clomid use. In all the time I have dealt with Hormone therapy (3.5 years), I have yet to find anyone who has successfully managed their hormones with Clomid only. Chances are, you will have to go to TRT eventually for max benefit. However, you can add HCG to keep your natural production happilly working. Armyguy > Hey Guys > > Well thanks to Dr. Schwartz (thanks Bruce!!!) i've finally narrowed > down my low T problem. My LH levels are SUPER low. Doc put me on > Clomid (been taking it 5 days now) and i have to go get more > bloodwork to see if its doing what it should. Doc had me get an MRI > of my head just to rule out any tumors. > > For those taking clomid for low LH how long did it take to see any > kind of results? Any side effects longterm i should be on the > lookout for? > > Thanks!! > > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 Clomid (the brand name) Clomiphene Citrate Is often used as a test to try and elicit a response from the testicles to see if they can produce testosterone. It is usually used to differentiate between primary and secondary hypogonadism. The problem I see in what he's doing is; Even if you do get a favorable response to clomid (the 800ng/dl you wish to see) what does this prove and what is he going to do? The first part of that question is rhetorical, because if you get a good response it shows that your hypothalamus/pituitary axis is intact and that your testicles if given the correct signal can produce enough testosterone. So to the second part of the question, what is he going to do? Unless he is doing this test with a view to changing treatment to HCG (I suspect he is not being so honest), then what exactly is the point? I have never known of a single person to have hypogonadism and then have there endocrine system kick-in and work again. I have read it in theory in text books but the fact is I have NEVER even once known of it to happen (outside of delayed puberty or malnutrition). I have known endocrinologists that would try and tell people with levels around 300ng/dl that because their HPTA is intact and there testicles can produce enough T as shown via such stimulation that they are normal/eugonadal, which of course is ridiculous!!!! It doesn't matter if your hypothalamus and pituitary CAN work via such stimulation, to ensure the testicles produce enough testosterone if they DON'T work in providing enough testosterone in reality without such stimulation. If he takes you off the Androgel, your testosterone level will most likely sink without trace back down to your baseline pre treatment level once the clomid stimulus is removed. So is he just going to try and show you a good figure whilst on clomid with the idea of removing the androgel? That is a little bit like smoke and mirrors- being tricked isn't it? Certainly if his idea is to do this you are being tricked unless your testicles remain producing the level attained on the clomid- which is fairly unlikely to say the least. P.S I saw an endocrinologist a few years ago who though I had secondary hypogonadism (hypogonadotropic hypogonadism). My testosterone was 293ng/dl. He set-up various dynamic tests to see how my pituitary was working and also booked an MRI scan of the pituitary. The dynamic tests showed that my HPTA was intact with my LH level responding favorably and my testicles increasing testosterone. The MRI came back ok. The result was he said that I did not have secondary hypogonadism and said that my testosterone level was ok. Well I was recently on HCG and my testicles were producing 24.3nmol/l which equates to something like 701ng/dl on the US scale. I think it is safe to say that I most certainly do have secondary hypogonadism! Make sure if he is saying that you your body CAN produce enough T that it IS producing enough T. If he wants you to come off the Androgel because of a favorable response to clomid then insist on going onto HCG. I think this doctor is trying to line you up for a sucker punch- watch him like a hawk!!!!!!! > I just got back from seeing my new doctor. He wants to try clomid and take me off the 5mg > androgel. My current T is at 350 (Normal base level three years ago was 800). He wants to > see if my testicles can be restimulated. Now I thought HCG does that, but he says that Clomid > is a better choice, is this true? > > Anyway, I'll be taking clomid for two weeks, then my levels will be retested. I was very > adiment about having my levels restored to 800, since my endo only thought I should be at > 400, that is why I left him. He said he agreed with me, so we shall see.... > > Am I on the right track, or should I keep looking for diffrent docs. I'm about ready to give up > and quit.This is taking a lot out of me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:21:41 -0000, you wrote: >I have never known of a single person to have hypogonadism and then >have there endocrine system kick-in and work again. I have read it in >theory in text books but the fact is I have NEVER even once known of >it to happen (outside of delayed puberty or malnutrition). There have been several reported cases of just that, usually after steroid abuse. I believe there's a case report in the files section. - - - - Just another albino black sheep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 > I just got back from seeing my new doctor. He wants to try clomid > and take me off the 5mg androgel. My current T is at 350 (Normal > base level three years ago was 800). He wants to see if my testicles > can be restimulated. If you had secondary hypogonadism then of course they most likely can be. So what? > Now I thought HCG does that, but he says that Clomid > is a better choice, is this true? Before you agree to this you should find out what constitutes " better " . Better in what way? Better because the treatment is oral and not injectible? You can decide if that is important to you. Better because it is cheaper? Maybe, depending upon the dose of clomid and how much hcg would be required. I doubt you are necessarily looking for the cheapest treatment. Some patients seem to feel that treatments earlier in the synthesis of hormones are better. Perhaps they believe that intermediate products are important or perhaps it is just an emotional issue. Appropriate patients on hcg seem to do just fine though. Better because it is more effective? I very much doubt that. Many patients are quite satisfied with hcg treatment. The only way I see it as being more effective is that it would give higher fsh levels. That might or might not be important to you. Even if it is you could use hcg till fertility is desired and then either add hmg or switch to clomid then. I have seen posts on the subject of continuous clomiphene treatment before. It is the nature of anecdotal information that is doesn't necessarily generalize well to other patients but I don't think it should be completely disregarded either. Some guys respond well enough to clomiphene that they get quite high levels of testosterone and all their labs look good. It doesn't necessarily translate into a reduction of symptoms as expected. The guys still simply don't feel as well as they could or as well as they expected. I don't know why (other than idle speculation)clomiphene doesn't supply the expected clinical benefits but that's the way it seems to turn out. Clomiphene is not a new drug. If it was going to be a great treatment for secondary hypogonadism, I think we would probably know that by now. > > Anyway, I'll be taking clomid for two weeks, then my levels will be > retested. I was very adiment about having my levels restored to 800, > since my endo only thought I should be at 400, that is why I left > him. He said he agreed with me, so we shall see.... > > Am I on the right track, or should I keep looking for diffrent docs. > I'm about ready to give up and quit.This is taking a lot out of > me... I see no great harm in trying this. But since you are in no mood to fool around, I would decline the clomiphene treatment unless it is a diagnostic test or some kind of prelude to starting hcg treatments. Good luck. Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 > Clomid (the brand name) Clomiphene Citrate Is often used as a test to > try and elicit a response from the testicles to see if they can > produce testosterone. > > It is usually used to differentiate between primary and secondary > hypogonadism. > > The problem I see in what he's doing is; > > Even if you do get a favorable response to clomid (the 800ng/dl you > wish to see) what does this prove and what is he going to do? > > The first part of that question is rhetorical, because if you get a > good response it shows that your hypothalamus/pituitary axis is intact > and that your testicles if given the correct signal can produce enough > testosterone. > > So to the second part of the question, what is he going to do? > > Unless he is doing this test with a view to changing treatment to HCG > (I suspect he is not being so honest), then what exactly is the point? > I agree with everything you wrote but I think the guy's agenda is to maintain him on clomiphene indefinitely. Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 I have decided not to take the clomid, since he did not beleive HCG was a good option (meaning he probally does not know as much as he should). Plus there was something about him, that did not sit well with me, I don't know what it was, but I'm going to trust my instincts. I made an appointment today with another doctor, a Dr. Pounders in Dallas, since I saw his name come across the board recently. Maybe I'll have some luck with him. Mabye, the fifth doctor is the charm!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 original poster and Brad, Well Clomiphene Citrate is simply not a long term option in terms of being a replacement therapy. Clomiphene Citrate is an anti-estrogen SERM medication that works in a similar way to Tamoxifen, apart from the fact that it elicits a higher GnRH response from the hypothalamus which results in greater elevations of Lh from the pituitary. When it is used for periods of over three months it has been known to cause problems with the visual fields and has even led to blindness over prolonged periods of use. So I hope it is being used for test purposes only. If his endocrinologist is suggesting long term use they he doesn't know what he is doing and should be fired!!! Retro, Yes I know that clomiphene has supposedly restarted the HPTA of those that have abused steroids. However I was refering to people in the general populus who have hypogonadism and like I said despite reading of such occurances in text books the fact remains I have yet to hear of it happening in a single person/instance. I think it is very rare for the HPTA to spontaneously fix itself because of the use of clomid/HCG or anthing else. Theoritically possible/rarely possible....but likely? No. This endocrinologist needs watching! Like I said unless he is looking to use clomid as a test to try and differentiatye between primary and secondary hypogonadism with a view to instigating HCG treatment, then I think he is upto no good or at least ignorant of the issues involved. > > Clomid (the brand name) Clomiphene Citrate Is often used as a test to > > try and elicit a response from the testicles to see if they can > > produce testosterone. > > > > It is usually used to differentiate between primary and secondary > > hypogonadism. > > > > The problem I see in what he's doing is; > > > > Even if you do get a favorable response to clomid (the 800ng/dl you > > wish to see) what does this prove and what is he going to do? > > > > The first part of that question is rhetorical, because if you get a > > good response it shows that your hypothalamus/pituitary axis is intact > > and that your testicles if given the correct signal can produce enough > > testosterone. > > > > So to the second part of the question, what is he going to do? > > > > Unless he is doing this test with a view to changing treatment to HCG > > (I suspect he is not being so honest), then what exactly is the point? > > > > I agree with everything you wrote but I think the guy's agenda is to > maintain him on clomiphene indefinitely. > > Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 > I have decided not to take the clomid, since he did not beleive HCG was a good option > (meaning he probally does not know as much as he should). Plus there was something about > him, that did not sit well with me, I don't know what it was, but I'm going to trust my > instincts. > > I made an appointment today with another doctor, a Dr. Pounders in Dallas, since I saw his > name come across the board recently. Maybe I'll have some luck with him. Mabye, the fifth > doctor is the charm!! Yeah I posted about Doctor Pounders. He is a nice guy and not an egomaniac. Or if he is, he hides it reasonably well. He isn't an endocrinologist but claims to have several hundred hypogonadal patients. Although I didn't exactly pin him down on this, I think he is more comfortable with the moderate part of the range rather than the highest part of the range. I don't think he'll have a problem with north of 400 though. He writes scripts for injectibles but I suspect he prefers transdermals and that stupid buccal thing. We never discussed clomiphene as a treament though he is aware of its use as a diagnostic tool. He's a reasonable prospect. Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 > I have decided not to take the clomid, since he did not beleive HCG was a good option > (meaning he probally does not know as much as he should). Plus there was something about > him, that did not sit well with me, I don't know what it was, but I'm going to trust my > instincts. > > I made an appointment today with another doctor, a Dr. Pounders in Dallas, since I saw his > name come across the board recently. Maybe I'll have some luck with him. Mabye, the fifth > doctor is the charm!! There's also a discussion of Dr. Aronoff in message 26086. He might be a possibility for you also. Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2005 Report Share Posted August 4, 2005 > Well I was recently on HCG and my testicles were producing 24.3nmol/l > which equates to something like 701ng/dl on the US scale. > > I think it is safe to say that I most certainly do have secondary > hypogonadism! Why aint you on HCG anymore ? didn't you feel any improvements ? JH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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