Re: New T provider and new application site

August 8, 2004

SB,

Sorry to hear that your endo has refused to carry on with your previous

treatment regime:(

What is your history, as in how did you come to be on T?

Do you have additional blood results from your 315 total testosterone result,

as in LH, FSH, shbg, Prolactin Estradiol etc?

If you have been given these results, you should request them and post them

here and we can help you.

If your endo cannot provide them to you, I would request a full pathology

investigation and state of your intention up front, that you wish to be given

these results and that means the actual results, not terms such as ok or normal.

It may be the case that you endo is not acting in accordance with the AACE

(American Association of Clinical Endocrinology) guidelines, certainly if you

are in the USA this is something he would need to address:)

If you obtain your pathology result, post them here we can take a look at

them, compare them to the guidelines and if they are not in accordance with the

guidelines, we can give you a copy of them to present to your endocrinologist

so that he may reconsider his position.

If you are not in the US, you can still present them in the hope that they

have some affect if your bloods show clear hypogonadal problems.

With regard to this T cream you bought, what is it called?

What is it supposed to be used to treat?

How much did it cost you?

Can you not buy androgel?

I am very worried by the sounds of the ingredients of this cream.

It contains proscar which is used as an anti hair loss cream and includes

Finaseride, which itself has been shown to cause hypogonadism.

If I were you I would not use this cream.

I know someone who became testosterone deficient because of Finaseride and

like I said it is in Proscar.

Regards,

Chris

In a message dated 09/08/2004 05:47:49 GMT Standard Time,

no_reply writes:

> Hello all:

>

> My endo recently refused to write me any new T prescriptions even

> though my total T is only 315. I am only 39 yrs old, and in a

> previous post i voiced my disatisfaction with this Dr.

>

> In the mean time, I bought some T cream from Nexos Theraputicals.

> This T cream is 200 mg/ml and it contains seleguline, vitamin B, and

> proscar as well.

>

> The doctor wrote that i should apply the cream (which is reddish

> pink) to the inner area of my wrists. It specifically states do not

> apply to fatty areas. Which in my case would leave out my abdomen.

>

> Why does androgel specify applying the gel on the abdoment when the

> fat cells there will likely turn some of the T to estrogen? Has

> anyone else applied T to the inside of thier wrists?

>

> Thanks

>

> SB

>

> PS any feedback good or bad about Nexos??

>

August 9, 2004

I tried the bioEntropic 5% testosterone creame for men, and it was a

load of poo. It did nothing.

There are other options. Anti-aging clinics are everywhere, most are

covered on ins as an out of network provider. You do the paper work.

One I have been talking to is www.renewman.com

Soap Box: I do not understand why docs find this stuff so hard? My

primary doc is very understanding, but does not specialize in this

so he refered me to an endo. This guy turnout to know less that my

primary. I took a copy of the AACE guidelines and he had never seen

them before. And after I showed him the sections on hcG and clomid

he took it to show someone else. When he came back he ask me if I

planned on being a father? which I answered no. His reply was that

hcG is an expensive treatment and is only recommended for people who

want childern. I don't get it. Even through renewman hcG is only

$60 per month, most of which is reembursed by Ins.

Bob

> Hello all:

>

> My endo recently refused to write me any new T prescriptions even

> though my total T is only 315. I am only 39 yrs old, and in a

> previous post i voiced my disatisfaction with this Dr.

>

> In the mean time, I bought some T cream from Nexos Theraputicals.

> This T cream is 200 mg/ml and it contains seleguline, vitamin B,

and

> proscar as well.

>

> The doctor wrote that i should apply the cream (which is reddish

> pink) to the inner area of my wrists. It specifically states do

not

> apply to fatty areas. Which in my case would leave out my

abdomen.

>

> Why does androgel specify applying the gel on the abdoment when

the

> fat cells there will likely turn some of the T to estrogen? Has

> anyone else applied T to the inside of thier wrists?

>

> Thanks

>

> SB

>

> PS any feedback good or bad about Nexos??

August 9, 2004

TRT can be converted to estradiol via the aromatase enzyme.

This enzyme is in significant concentrations, in andipose tissue,

particularly in the viseral fat in the stomach and fat in the thighs and

buttocks.

The heavier more overweight an individual is, the greater the potential of

testosterone aromatasing into estradiol.

Some people also have a natural disposition, that sees there body excessively

amomatase testosterone to estrogen.

In such people, increasing testosterone often sees an increase in the

coversion process.

Gynecomastia, the abnormal growth of breast tissue in men is associated with

this problem.

For men who suffer in this way, the use of aromatase inhibitors such as

Arimadex and non aromatasable adrogens such as DHT are helpful in tackling the

problem.

regards,

Chris

August 9, 2004

Nexos is a good source for testosterone, and other products. Their cream is

testosterone,

which you can ask to add or subtract those extras like b12. Their prices are

fair, except

HGH. They sell enanthate, nandrolone decanoate, cypionate injectibles. They have

a very

good deal on a full blood test. My wife gets her HRT from them. I even bought a

bottle of

enanthate to try some day.

My wife applys the HRT to her inner wrists, it has worked so great, can't even

explain how

much a change it has been for her. She use to have all the nasty issues with her

period, all

gone now, does not even notice them anymore. Most likly the best place to apply

cream is

the inner wrists.

With AG, it uses the skin and fat as the depot, so area is important to AG.

There is the

issue of T-E conversion if you apply T to fatty areas, not sure if it is true

though.

> Hello all:

>

> My endo recently refused to write me any new T prescriptions even

> though my total T is only 315. I am only 39 yrs old, and in a

> previous post i voiced my disatisfaction with this Dr.

>

> In the mean time, I bought some T cream from Nexos Theraputicals.

> This T cream is 200 mg/ml and it contains seleguline, vitamin B, and

> proscar as well.

>

> The doctor wrote that i should apply the cream (which is reddish

> pink) to the inner area of my wrists. It specifically states do not

> apply to fatty areas. Which in my case would leave out my abdomen.

>

> Why does androgel specify applying the gel on the abdoment when the

> fat cells there will likely turn some of the T to estrogen? Has

> anyone else applied T to the inside of thier wrists?

>

> Thanks

>

> SB

>

> PS any feedback good or bad about Nexos??

August 9, 2004

As far as I am aware TRT simply does not work in the way that you have

mentioned. As in it is not topical.

Androgel/testogel are transdermal delivery systems for testosterone.

They pass testosterone into the skin where, which acts as a reservoir, from

here it is time released into the blood supply from where it goes on to effect

the endocrine system.

Am I missing something here? I apologise if I am.

August 9, 2004

I apply androgel to my upper arms, neck and smear a little on the bald part

of my wrists. I'm very hairy, refuse to shave, and have a tough time

finding enough hairless areas to spread it all on my upper arms, chest and

abdomen.

This thread is the first I've heard of fat cells converting AG to

estrogen/estradiol...is that a fact, or a misinterpretation of having fat

cells in general leads to higher E?

Caveat - I'm only four months into TRT, so I'm still learning what works and

doesn't.

> New T provider and new application site

>

> Hello all:

>

> My endo recently refused to write me any new T prescriptions

> even though my total T is only 315. I am only 39 yrs old, and

> in a previous post i voiced my disatisfaction with this Dr.

>

> In the mean time, I bought some T cream from Nexos Theraputicals.

> This T cream is 200 mg/ml and it contains seleguline, vitamin

> B, and proscar as well.

>

> The doctor wrote that i should apply the cream (which is reddish

> pink) to the inner area of my wrists. It specifically states

> do not apply to fatty areas. Which in my case would leave

> out my abdomen.

>

> Why does androgel specify applying the gel on the abdoment

> when the fat cells there will likely turn some of the T to

> estrogen? Has anyone else applied T to the inside of thier wrists?

>

> Thanks

>

> SB

>

> PS any feedback good or bad about Nexos??

>

August 9, 2004

It is odd that this came up but if you read the insert for AndroGel it says you

can put it on you abdomen. But Testim says not to. I was doing Testim and

shots 10 grams of testim per day and a 200mg shot every other week. The shot

drove up my E2 now that I have it down my levels are higher just doing Testim.

And the thinking that the Gels convert fast or faster then pellets I don't agree

I got my E2 so low and stopping Arimidex for 5 weeks my E2 came up to 48 form

Less then 20. I know a guy at my Dr.'s that is just doing shots and he got his

E2 down to low and only stopped the Arimidex for 2 weeks and he shot up to over

80. So I don't think Gels convert that fast.

Phil

Dave <daultman@...> wrote:

I apply androgel to my upper arms, neck and smear a little on the bald part

of my wrists. I'm very hairy, refuse to shave, and have a tough time

finding enough hairless areas to spread it all on my upper arms, chest and

abdomen.

This thread is the first I've heard of fat cells converting AG to

estrogen/estradiol...is that a fact, or a misinterpretation of having fat

cells in general leads to higher E?

Caveat - I'm only four months into TRT, so I'm still learning what works and

doesn't.

> New T provider and new application site

>

> Hello all:

>

> My endo recently refused to write me any new T prescriptions

> even though my total T is only 315. I am only 39 yrs old, and

> in a previous post i voiced my disatisfaction with this Dr.

>

> In the mean time, I bought some T cream from Nexos Theraputicals.

> This T cream is 200 mg/ml and it contains seleguline, vitamin

> B, and proscar as well.

>

> The doctor wrote that i should apply the cream (which is reddish

> pink) to the inner area of my wrists. It specifically states

> do not apply to fatty areas. Which in my case would leave

> out my abdomen.

>

> Why does androgel specify applying the gel on the abdoment

> when the fat cells there will likely turn some of the T to

> estrogen? Has anyone else applied T to the inside of thier wrists?

>

> Thanks

>

> SB

>

> PS any feedback good or bad about Nexos??

>

August 9, 2004

> I apply androgel to my upper arms, neck and smear a little on the

bald part

> of my wrists. I'm very hairy, refuse to shave, and have a tough

time

> finding enough hairless areas to spread it all on my upper arms,

chest and

> abdomen.

>

> This thread is the first I've heard of fat cells converting AG to

> estrogen/estradiol...is that a fact, or a misinterpretation of

having fat

> cells in general leads to higher E?

>

> Caveat - I'm only four months into TRT, so I'm still learning what

works and

> doesn't.

--------------------------------------

Dave, I believe the general consensus is to apply a topical

testosterone on a a skin area that is NOT a fat area, I have been

told the ideal place is the inner bicep areas, mostly muscle. My

guess is that applying to the abdomen or chest or other fatty area

causes in theory some of the T to be diverted into the fat cells

where it gets converted into estrogen, which then converts to more

fat.

I also think a good place to slather in on is the tops of the thighs

if you keep your legs in decent shape there is a lot of muscle there.

best regards

norton

August 9, 2004

An independant test found that Androgel absorbs best on the back. The

legs are next, then the other recommended areas. The only reason

these places are not mentioned in the package insert is that they

were not tested during the clinical trials for the drug.

After a frustrating period applying AGel to my arms and shoulders,

with a rise in T levels to only 280, I tried thighs and chest. I now

read in the 600-700 range. Estrogen levels are normal. I'm extrememly

hairy. I just rub it in anyway....

Regards,

K4

> > I apply androgel to my upper arms, neck and smear a little on the

> bald part

> > of my wrists. I'm very hairy, refuse to shave, and have a tough

> time

> > finding enough hairless areas to spread it all on my upper arms,

> chest and

> > abdomen.

> >

> > This thread is the first I've heard of fat cells converting AG to

> > estrogen/estradiol...is that a fact, or a misinterpretation of

> having fat

> > cells in general leads to higher E?

> >

> > Caveat - I'm only four months into TRT, so I'm still learning

what

> works and

> > doesn't.

> --------------------------------------

> Dave, I believe the general consensus is to apply a topical

> testosterone on a a skin area that is NOT a fat area, I have been

> told the ideal place is the inner bicep areas, mostly muscle. My

> guess is that applying to the abdomen or chest or other fatty area

> causes in theory some of the T to be diverted into the fat cells

> where it gets converted into estrogen, which then converts to more

> fat.

> I also think a good place to slather in on is the tops of the

thighs

> if you keep your legs in decent shape there is a lot of muscle

there.

> best regards

> norton

August 9, 2004

Thanks. Where did you find that test? Is there a handy url?

I was certain I'd read here that the back was too thick-skinned for good

absorption - though I've often made the mistake of assuming what's said

about non-Androgel topical solutions also applies to Androgel. My worst,

perhaps, was the suggestion that AG be applied to the penis and scrotum. It

didn't hurt me there, but I got a scolding here about that advice from

Shippen DID NOT apply to Androgel. The plus side to that seemed to be that

with more of a certain receptor in those areas than others that the T would

not convert to E2, but only to DHT. So, the choice was big tits or no

hair...frankly I'd rather be bald.

I've gotten more liberal (sloppy?) about rubbing Androgel into hairy areas

that aren't as " furry " as the rest. My backs hard to reach, and actually

hairier than my upper arms - does that qualify as too much information?

I've posted labs in another thread, but I was shocked to find that 3 months

of the minimum dose of Androgel shot my Total T from 210 to 1022 and Free T

from 6.6 to 24.5. From my overall condition currently, I was sure my T was

still low.

> Re: New T provider and new application site

>

> An independant test found that Androgel absorbs best on the

> back. The legs are next, then the other recommended areas.

> The only reason these places are not mentioned in the package

> insert is that they were not tested during the clinical

> trials for the drug.

>

> After a frustrating period applying AGel to my arms and

> shoulders, with a rise in T levels to only 280, I tried

> thighs and chest. I now read in the 600-700 range. Estrogen

> levels are normal. I'm extrememly hairy. I just rub it in anyway....

>

> Regards,

>

> K4

>

> > > I apply androgel to my upper arms, neck and smear a little on the

> > bald part

> > > of my wrists. I'm very hairy, refuse to shave, and have a tough

> > time

> > > finding enough hairless areas to spread it all on my upper arms,

> > chest and

> > > abdomen.

> > >

> > > This thread is the first I've heard of fat cells converting AG to

> > > estrogen/estradiol...is that a fact, or a misinterpretation of

> > having fat

> > > cells in general leads to higher E?

> > >

> > > Caveat - I'm only four months into TRT, so I'm still learning

> what

> > works and

> > > doesn't.

> > --------------------------------------

> > Dave, I believe the general consensus is to apply a topical

> > testosterone on a a skin area that is NOT a fat area, I

> have been told

> > the ideal place is the inner bicep areas, mostly muscle. My

> guess is

> > that applying to the abdomen or chest or other fatty area causes in

> > theory some of the T to be diverted into the fat cells

> where it gets

> > converted into estrogen, which then converts to more fat.

> > I also think a good place to slather in on is the tops of the

> thighs

> > if you keep your legs in decent shape there is a lot of muscle

> there.

> > best regards

> > norton

>

August 10, 2004

Phil,

Did the guy who uses shots get his E2 test using the Nichols assay? I don't

have access to that test, I only have access to the Labcorp test and am

wondering whether it will do the trick.

In a message dated 8/9/2004 3:10:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

pmgamer18@... writes:

It is odd that this came up but if you read the insert for AndroGel it says

you can put it on you abdomen. But Testim says not to. I was doing Testim

and shots 10 grams of testim per day and a 200mg shot every other week. The

shot drove up my E2 now that I have it down my levels are higher just doing

Testim. And the thinking that the Gels convert fast or faster then pellets I

don't

agree I got my E2 so low and stopping Arimidex for 5 weeks my E2 came up to

48 form Less then 20. I know a guy at my Dr.'s that is just doing shots and he

got his E2 down to low and only stopped the Arimidex for 2 weeks and he shot

up to over 80. So I don't think Gels convert that fast.

Phil

August 10, 2004

Yep it is me again did you put on the androGel before your blood test if you did

this could be the reason for the high numbers. Your blood test gets a spike of

T. if you get tested after putting it on. I put mine on after I get home from

the blood test.