Re: Philosophical Question About Hypogonadism

[Guest guest]

Liz:

There is some merit to what you ask. Lots of historians will tell you about

eunuchs that were voluntarily castrated to permit them a " higher " level of

learning without distractions. Likewise, the castrati in Europe - the boys

who would always sing with a high voice as they were volunteered by their

parents to be castrated in order to preserve their clear voices. However,

you will also find these same persons in history as being described as

sickly or weak.

However, in my case, there have been no benefits whatsoever, unless you

consider being bedridden for the rest of your life a benefit. Without HRT,

that's where I was headed. No joke, no amplification of the facts.

Todd

Philosophical Question About Hypogonadism

Hello, I have been reading about testosterone, and its mental and

emotional effects.

Has anyone regarded hypogonadism as actually an advantage to a man

from a spiritual perspective? A philosopher Brunton says, " The

unfolding of progressive states of conscious being is not possible

with giving up the lower for the higher. "

Testosterone has adversely affected my relationships with men. My

marriage recently ended due to it, causing my husband to lust after

girls and fight alot. (Is T. related to alcohol use/abuse?) I am a

religious person, highly interested in a spiritual goal.

Testosterone is not always an advantage, from a marital or spiritual

perspective.

Any single hypogonadic men might actually be in demand by those

women who are tired of mens' fighting, flirting, infidelity, overly

frequent sexual demands. (It is understood that some other effects

like osteoporosis are definitely not fun).

Does anyone here see advantages to hypogonadism?

Liz

[Guest guest]

Sorry, but hypogonadism is not going to make any men more

attractive. The reason men seek to fix this problem is not because

we don't feel agressive enough or something, it's because when you

are hypogonadal many/most are DEPRESED, LETHARGIC, UNFEELING, ANGRY,

IRRITABLE, SHORT TEMPERED, UNABLE TO FOCUS, and you can suffer from

painful joints, weight problems, loss of self worth, inability to

exercise etc.

Having a lower than high testosterone, but feeling normal doesn't

make someone hypogonadal, and that is a different story. But when

you suffer from the symptoms above and your testosterone is low,

upping it will make a very positive impact on the man's life,

including making them LESS irritable and more happy! Philosophocally

speaking, quality of life is life itself and raising someones

testosterone to a healthy level will increase quality of life for

those who need it.

It will not make a person a 'fighter' or a 'cheater' or an

alcoholic, that is the person themselve that will do that if that's

who they are or if they have other problems that cause that. If not,

they won't become that. The one thing TRT will often do is add to

the person's desire to have sex more often. But, as most men will

tell you, sex drive is connected to quality of life and that is not

a bad thing.

Please note that the same applies for allot of woman. Sex drive is

often equated with hormonal health. So if you find yours is

extremely low, then you can always consider trying estrogen and/or

testosterone replacement yourself . That is quite common for women

and most find it very beneficial for quality of life. Of course, if

you were married to a man who was a fighter, drinker and a cheater,

the problem may likely have been an uncouth lover and I'm sure that

is not good for the sex drive either. The fact of the matter is,

that sex is a wonderful part of life and no sex drive is not truly a

benefit to very many people.

Armyguy

> Hello, I have been reading about testosterone, and its mental and

> emotional effects.

> Has anyone regarded hypogonadism as actually an advantage to a

man

> from a spiritual perspective? A philosopher Brunton

says, " The

> unfolding of progressive states of conscious being is not possible

> with giving up the lower for the higher. "

> Testosterone has adversely affected my relationships with men. My

> marriage recently ended due to it, causing my husband to lust

after

> girls and fight alot. (Is T. related to alcohol use/abuse?) I am a

> religious person, highly interested in a spiritual goal.

> Testosterone is not always an advantage, from a marital or

spiritual

> perspective.

> Any single hypogonadic men might actually be in demand by those

> women who are tired of mens' fighting, flirting, infidelity,

overly

> frequent sexual demands. (It is understood that some other effects

> like osteoporosis are definitely not fun).

> Does anyone here see advantages to hypogonadism?

> Liz

[Guest guest]

> Has anyone regarded hypogonadism as actually an advantage to a man

> from a spiritual perspective? A philosopher Brunton says, " The

> unfolding of progressive states of conscious being is not possible

> with giving up the lower for the higher. "

Sure. One example is a fellow named Marshall Applewhite. He was the

leader of the Heaven's Gate cult that committed mass suicide back in '97.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/heavensgate/gate13.html

http://www.rickross.com/reference/heavensgate/gate14.html

http://www.rickross.com/reference/heavensgate/gate16.html

> Does anyone here see advantages to hypogonadism?

Not me.

Brad

[Guest guest]

>> Testosterone has adversely affected my relationships with men.

It sounds more like it is the other way around - your relationships with men

have adversely affected your view of testosterone. As with women, there are

all sorts of men out there - the good, the bad, and the ugly. Within each

of those categories are men with varying levels of testosterone. If you are

looking for a spiritual lesson it is that you must find out who is good and

who is the loser or why you may attact losers- rather than simply blaming

male physiology. There are plenty of gorgeous, emotionally healthy, and

wonderful women out there who like their men with high testosterone and we

thank God for that and we try to please- even if through supplementation.

What is a problem for you is a joy for many women. Maybe you should just

push your theory all the way through to the end and take up with a woman. It

might work out better for you and would spare some poor soul from being with

a woman who thinks that all her marital problems can be traced to

testosterone.

There is also a little subtext in your message that says that the lower the

testosterone the closer to god a person must be. That must mean that women

are closer to God than men - isnt that a ducky little theory if you are a

woman. Forget the testosterone theories. Find a good man and make sure

you are deserving of him. Most men have had their teeth kicked in or a

marriage destroyed by some woman whoring around on them so we can relate to

your problem but the testosterone theory works better for you than for us.

What about ? He looks a little hypogonadal to me. Maybe he

could be a good catch.

Just spoofin ya babe. I know you are hurting and trying to make sense of

things and I wish you well. As they say, no one will ever win the war

between the sexes - too much fraternizing with with the enemy.

Winter

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[Guest guest]

I do not think that you can have a phiosophical view on a medical condition that

harms a man.

When my T level is right, i am calm, happy, loving, i am more of what i am.

When my T level is low, i hope for death to end the misery.

Men, who are dogs, will be dogs no matter their T level.

Very high T levels will cause a increase in aggression.

And abuse of T, just like abuse of booze will cause a person to all sorts of

things.

[Guest guest]

Liz,

Wouldn't many men have better relationships with women if those women didn't

have hormonal swings? So by that criteria should we hope that women suffer

endocrinological problems?

Your marriage didn't end because of T, it may have ended because your husband

was a lout, you were a nag, or a combination of the two. Maybe even something

else.

Also, maybe your T was too low? Flip the coin and quit blaming hormones.

Best of luck,

In a message dated 1/8/2004 10:23:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,

liz08@... writes:

Hello, I have been reading about testosterone, and its mental and

emotional effects.

Has anyone regarded hypogonadism as actually an advantage to a man

from a spiritual perspective? A philosopher Brunton says, " The

unfolding of progressive states of conscious being is not possible

with giving up the lower for the higher. "

Testosterone has adversely affected my relationships with men. My

marriage recently ended due to it, causing my husband to lust after

girls and fight alot. (Is T. related to alcohol use/abuse?) I am a

religious person, highly interested in a spiritual goal.

Testosterone is not always an advantage, from a marital or spiritual

perspective.

Any single hypogonadic men might actually be in demand by those

women who are tired of mens' fighting, flirting, infidelity, overly

frequent sexual demands. (It is understood that some other effects

like osteoporosis are definitely not fun).

Does anyone here see advantages to hypogonadism?

Liz

[Guest guest]

I agree with you patrick, but I don't even agree that 'abuse of t'

will cause a person to do all sorts of things. Bodybuilders are

often very nice guys, it is simply public perception about the whole

roid rage thing, it doesn't really exist AT ALL unless the person is

a bit of a nut to begin with or taking really wacked out substances.

From testosterone therapy, even at very high levels, I don't believe

it is fair to say that it will CAUSE men to do all sorts of things

ever. This is stuff that we need, and going above the limit for high

testosterone is not going to cause anyone to do anything crazy at

all. It is just going to make you feel better... and hopefully..

good!

Armyguy

> I do not think that you can have a phiosophical view on a medical

condition that

> harms a man.

>

> When my T level is right, i am calm, happy, loving, i am more of

what i am.

>

> When my T level is low, i hope for death to end the misery.

>

> Men, who are dogs, will be dogs no matter their T level.

>

> Very high T levels will cause a increase in aggression.

>

> And abuse of T, just like abuse of booze will cause a person to

all sorts of things.

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

IMO, you are making some suppositions that may or may not be correct....but

they are highly uncomplimentary.

OR eon

GayMan

Re: Philosophical Question About Hypogonadism

Liz,

Wouldn't many men have better relationships with women if those women didn't

have hormonal swings? So by that criteria should we hope that women suffer

endocrinological problems?

Your marriage didn't end because of T, it may have ended because your

husband

was a lout, you were a nag, or a combination of the two. Maybe even

something

else.

Also, maybe your T was too low? Flip the coin and quit blaming hormones.

Best of luck,

In a message dated 1/8/2004 10:23:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,

liz08@... writes:

Hello, I have been reading about testosterone, and its mental and

emotional effects.

Has anyone regarded hypogonadism as actually an advantage to a man

from a spiritual perspective? A philosopher Brunton says, " The

unfolding of progressive states of conscious being is not possible

with giving up the lower for the higher. "

Testosterone has adversely affected my relationships with men. My

marriage recently ended due to it, causing my husband to lust after

girls and fight alot. (Is T. related to alcohol use/abuse?) I am a

religious person, highly interested in a spiritual goal.

Testosterone is not always an advantage, from a marital or spiritual

perspective.

Any single hypogonadic men might actually be in demand by those

women who are tired of mens' fighting, flirting, infidelity, overly

frequent sexual demands. (It is understood that some other effects

like osteoporosis are definitely not fun).

Does anyone here see advantages to hypogonadism?

Liz

[Guest guest]

You know that is a real interesting view on the massive dosage issue.

I have read about BB's using 3 grams a week, (3,000mg) and not going out and

doing

all sorts of things. I agree that i overstated, by comparing T to booze, and the

effect

on a man to go out and do all sorts of things. There might be medical reasons

not to

abuse it, but that is different then what a man does while using it, i guess T

is

somewhat neutral a substance, it just makes you more of what you are.

> > I do not think that you can have a phiosophical view on a medical

> condition that

> > harms a man.

> >

> > When my T level is right, i am calm, happy, loving, i am more of

> what i am.

> >

> > When my T level is low, i hope for death to end the misery.

> >

> > Men, who are dogs, will be dogs no matter their T level.

> >

> > Very high T levels will cause a increase in aggression.

> >

> > And abuse of T, just like abuse of booze will cause a person to

> all sorts of things.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

OK, enough of the ugly replies! We don't tolerate flaming on this

board...

In defense of what Liz said, Testosterone is directly linked to

sexual agression. Eleveated T levels have been proven to correlate

with increased sexual fantasies and thoughts. I don't think you'll

find many rapists with low T (note that T is NOT the only factor at

work here, however).

On the other hand, many symptoms of LOW T make for a man who is

MISERABLE to be around by either sex. They include anger, depression,

confusion and mood swings. These are not traits that contribute to a

good relationship. So Liz, the real answer is that men and women need

a proper balance of hormones to function normally both sexually and

emotionally. Other psychological factors are of course involved in

behavior - we are not creatures controlled soley by our hormones. We

do have freedom of choice and the ability to control our behavior and

impulses. The deciding factor is what we as individuals decide are

our priorities. Evidently in your case, your husband decided his

marriage and his relationship with you were not at the top of his

list.

Regards,

K4

Moderator

> Liz,

>

> Wouldn't many men have better relationships with women if those

women didn't

> have hormonal swings? So by that criteria should we hope that women

suffer

> endocrinological problems?

>

> Your marriage didn't end because of T, it may have ended because

your husband

> was a lout, you were a nag, or a combination of the two. Maybe even

something

> else.

>

> Also, maybe your T was too low? Flip the coin and quit blaming

hormones.

>

> Best of luck,

>

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 1/8/2004 10:23:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> liz08@i... writes:

> Hello, I have been reading about testosterone, and its mental and

> emotional effects.

> Has anyone regarded hypogonadism as actually an advantage to a man

> from a spiritual perspective? A philosopher Brunton says, " The

> unfolding of progressive states of conscious being is not possible

> with giving up the lower for the higher. "

> Testosterone has adversely affected my relationships with men. My

> marriage recently ended due to it, causing my husband to lust after

> girls and fight alot. (Is T. related to alcohol use/abuse?) I am a

> religious person, highly interested in a spiritual goal.

> Testosterone is not always an advantage, from a marital or

spiritual

> perspective.

> Any single hypogonadic men might actually be in demand by those

> women who are tired of mens' fighting, flirting, infidelity, overly

> frequent sexual demands. (It is understood that some other effects

> like osteoporosis are definitely not fun).

> Does anyone here see advantages to hypogonadism?

> Liz

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sounds like some one with low T

Philosophical Question About Hypogonadism

> Testosterone has adversely affected my relationships with men. My

> marriage recently ended due to it, causing my husband to lust after

> girls and fight alot. (Is T. related to alcohol use/abuse?)

[Guest guest]

I agree, that's the trick. Low testosterone causes symptoms that

publicly are normally associated with too high testosterone, they

can anyway, such as anger, alcoholism etc.

> Sounds like some one with low T

>

>

> Philosophical Question About Hypogonadism

>

>

> > Testosterone has adversely affected my relationships with men.

My

> > marriage recently ended due to it, causing my husband to lust

after

> > girls and fight alot. (Is T. related to alcohol use/abuse?)

[Guest guest]

>

>kaitain4 <no_reply > wrote:I don't think you'll

>find many rapists with low T (note that T is NOT the only factor at

>work here, however).

>

Although I take your point, I would also add that as a matter of fact there

are many, many, many men with NO testosterone who rape again and again.

These are men who receive ongoing chemical castration as part of their

sentancing but still end out raping again.

Also for consideration is the fact that if a woman were being raped in a

dangerous situation and some men entered the fray to stop it, they would

also probably be men with higher testosterone (or at least the no-T group

would probably be less likely to show up). No one questions that T gives you

more verve to be who you are. You could give a frontal lobotomy to men who

are aggressive and that might help out a little too but that does not make a

case that brains in and of themselves are problems that need to fixed.

Testosterone is not a poison that makes men bad. You could easily make the

case that it has been the fuel that has driven healthy men to accomplish

many of the great things in life.

Women like to have men believe that they possess all of the " good " hormones.

You know, there is not a man here who did not grow up with subtle messages

that women are more nurturing and socialized than men because of their

" female " hormones and we just have all of the nasty stuff.

Next time you are with a group of older women who say things like that point

out the fact that most men in their lates fifties have higher estrogen

levels than women of the same age. And, that in the absence of estrogen,

androgens become the dominant hormone in older women, hence the masculining

effect. You will find little enthusiasm for that discussion, believe me.

It's a lot of fun though and is also factually based (just make sure you are

not married to one of them because you will pay later).

Winter

_________________________________________________________________

Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed

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[Guest guest]

Liz, you can't blame testosterone on your ex's behavior any more than

you can blame his genitals. Can you say that his genitals caused his

behavior, and without it he would've been a better man? Some militant

feminists would say, yes, absolutely, it's his genitals fault, plus

the fact that all men are animals. They're the same group that came

up with the term " testosterone poisoning " which is a phrase we've all

heard. It's a vicious lie, though, because there's no such thing.

We like to compartmentalize our problems. Your divorce, in your mind,

is soley his fault, and you're trying to figure out why he did the

things that ruined your marriage. Don't forget, Jesus said that

before you try to remove the speck from your brother's eye, remove

the plank from your own. That's my way of saying that it takes two to

get married and invariably takes two to ruin a marriage. You need to

be looking at YOUR role in the demise of your marriage. After all,

you can't change who your ex is, only who you are.

I am sorry that you're suffering and hope you find answers and solace

in the Lord. Unfortunately, you're VERY unlikely to find answers by

coming to this particular forum and blaming testosterone for your

marital problems.

Jim

[Guest guest]

My word, this posting generated some responses.

I have low testosterone but also elevated PSA, so treatment options

are limited. I am also agnostic.

I saw a British study of some hundreds of mid-20's women who were

shown men with varying levels of Testosterone, but within the normal

range for mid-20's male. Some of the women were asked which man they

would pick for a single date, and they generally went for the men

with a higher average testosterone. Which men would they pick for a

long-term relationship? The lower average testosterone. Seemed tbe

body characteristics of the average ranges prompted women to

recognise the lower average testosterone male would make a reliable

partner and the higher-average wouldn't.

Of course, preferring hypogonadic men is a little extreme... But

there may be a lesson for those under treatment not to aim for

testosterone levels that are too high as well.

Regards,

Mark from Australia

> Hello, I have been reading about testosterone, and its mental and

> emotional effects.

> Has anyone regarded hypogonadism as actually an advantage to a man

> from a spiritual perspective? A philosopher Brunton says, " The

> unfolding of progressive states of conscious being is not possible

> with giving up the lower for the higher. "

> Testosterone has adversely affected my relationships with men. My

> marriage recently ended due to it, causing my husband to lust after

> girls and fight alot. (Is T. related to alcohol use/abuse?) I am a

> religious person, highly interested in a spiritual goal.

> Testosterone is not always an advantage, from a marital or

spiritual

> perspective.

> Any single hypogonadic men might actually be in demand by those

> women who are tired of mens' fighting, flirting, infidelity, overly

> frequent sexual demands. (It is understood that some other effects

> like osteoporosis are definitely not fun).

> Does anyone here see advantages to hypogonadism?

> Liz

[Guest guest]

Hello Mark and All, How does one recognize the " lower average

testosterone male " ? Liz

> > Hello, I have been reading about testosterone, and its mental and

> > emotional effects.

> > Has anyone regarded hypogonadism as actually an advantage to a

man

> > from a spiritual perspective? A philosopher Brunton

says, " The

> > unfolding of progressive states of conscious being is not

possible

> > with giving up the lower for the higher. "

> > Testosterone has adversely affected my relationships with men.

My

> > marriage recently ended due to it, causing my husband to lust

after

> > girls and fight alot. (Is T. related to alcohol use/abuse?) I am

a

> > religious person, highly interested in a spiritual goal.

> > Testosterone is not always an advantage, from a marital or

> spiritual

> > perspective.

> > Any single hypogonadic men might actually be in demand by those

> > women who are tired of mens' fighting, flirting, infidelity,

overly

> > frequent sexual demands. (It is understood that some other

effects

> > like osteoporosis are definitely not fun).

> > Does anyone here see advantages to hypogonadism?

> > Liz

[Guest guest]

Get his blood level tested.

Armyguy

> > > Hello, I have been reading about testosterone, and its mental

and

> > > emotional effects.

> > > Has anyone regarded hypogonadism as actually an advantage to

a

> man

> > > from a spiritual perspective? A philosopher Brunton

> says, " The

> > > unfolding of progressive states of conscious being is not

> possible

> > > with giving up the lower for the higher. "

> > > Testosterone has adversely affected my relationships with

men.

> My

> > > marriage recently ended due to it, causing my husband to lust

> after

> > > girls and fight alot. (Is T. related to alcohol use/abuse?) I

am

> a

> > > religious person, highly interested in a spiritual goal.

> > > Testosterone is not always an advantage, from a marital or

> > spiritual

> > > perspective.

> > > Any single hypogonadic men might actually be in demand by

those

> > > women who are tired of mens' fighting, flirting, infidelity,

> overly

> > > frequent sexual demands. (It is understood that some other

> effects

> > > like osteoporosis are definitely not fun).

> > > Does anyone here see advantages to hypogonadism?

> > > Liz

[Guest guest]

Hi Liz

What you asked was a religious question. As a self proclaimed

religious person you should know that lust is a sin and can only be

blamed on man's sinful nature or the workings of the devil.

Attraction which can be chemically induced, reduced or eliminated is

a good on the good verses evil scale. All things come from God and

are good. Only man twists them to evil. Affection becomes lust,

wine become booze not because of the wine but because of the drinker.

For myself when I finally asked my doctor for help I had not been

through puberty and had been suicidal for ten years. As long as I

stay on testosterone I am not suicidal.

Hypogonadism is good it comes from God it allows people to have very

differing viewpoints. It is a very hard test and it hardens the

souls of those who survive it. So it is good. But the same can be

said of blindness or any other major life changing disability.

On the whole it would be a very bad world if more men had the

disease. The world would be angrier, sadder, slower and suicidal.

> Hello, I have been reading about testosterone, and its mental and

> emotional effects.

> Has anyone regarded hypogonadism as actually an advantage to a man

> from a spiritual perspective? A philosopher Brunton says, " The

> unfolding of progressive states of conscious being is not possible

> with giving up the lower for the higher. "

> Testosterone has adversely affected my relationships with men. My

> marriage recently ended due to it, causing my husband to lust after

> girls and fight alot. (Is T. related to alcohol use/abuse?) I am a

> religious person, highly interested in a spiritual goal.

> Testosterone is not always an advantage, from a marital or

spiritual

> perspective.

> Any single hypogonadic men might actually be in demand by those

> women who are tired of mens' fighting, flirting, infidelity, overly

> frequent sexual demands. (It is understood that some other effects

> like osteoporosis are definitely not fun).

> Does anyone here see advantages to hypogonadism?

> Liz

[Guest guest]

> On the whole it would be a very bad world if more men had the

> disease. The world would be angrier, sadder, slower and suicidal.

I think we need to understand the realities here. The world is already

an angry place and there is a substantial percentage of Hypogonadal

males in society.

The estimated 2% of 20 year old men with Hypogonadism, 10% at 40, 30% at

50, and 30% at 60, would certainly seem to provide a solid foundation.

Source:

Harman SM, Metter EJ, Tobin JD, et al Longitudinal effects of aging on

serum total and free testosterone levels in healthy men. Baltimore

Longitudinal Study of Aging. J Clin Endocrinol Metab (United States),

Feb 2001, 86(2) p724-31

It is when you look at the graph for Free T that you see those

percentages....

This subject requires a lot more attention than it is getting IMHO. No

you cannot blame every act on a man's T levels, but you cannot rule them

out either. As someone who grew up with the problem, I can tell you it

left me with behavioural issues and anger problems. It was always " my

fault " too.

Funnily enough, it was only when I read the AACE 2002/3 Hypogonadism

guidelines update that I began to really understand why I'd reacted as I

had in youth. I am now 51 btw.

It was not my fault that I could retain nothing and had an attention

problem, but was as bright as a button.

It was not my fault that I was bullied as my peers sprouted and I waited

in vain for pubic hair. It was not my fault I was abused..... You get

the idea. I ended up one bitter, twisted young man.

You can imagine perhaps how my angry ignorance was smashed into

oblivion, after the news that both my testicles likely had Cancer when I

was 35. It's been a ride

Understanding the long term impact of Hypogonadism can only be taken in

context of its origins and environment. Acceptance of the problems it

has caused and getting help where necessary is what counts IMHO.

Just my dos centavos as it were

Nick

[Guest guest]

Hey Nick, is there anyway you could figure out the average/mean for a

34 year old? My free test last time was 13.2pg/ML (range 13-40). I

was trying to convince my Dr. that that is not a normal free test for

a 34 year old (my total T is 401 (241-827)

>

> It is when you look at the graph for Free T that you see those

> percentages....

>

>