Re: Injection dosage change & going back to Arimidex

[Guest guest]

Hi Bruce -

DIM and Arimidex work in different ways, so I don't know why some

people say you have to discontinue DIM when on Arimidex. But I would

choose one or the other just to keep things simple. Arimidex drove

me too low as well, so I'm currently giving DIM a shot.

If you decide on Arimidex, just keep track of those " too low "

warning signs. Because I've been too low, I know now that as soon as

I start losing sensitivity and begin feeling foggy then I am too low

and need to stop. What is your dose?

Your T levels are great, get that E2 down and your golden!

Dave K.

>

> Hi,

>

> Latest and prior labs:

>

> Drawn 11/4/04 (4 days after injection)

> T 765 (R: 241-827 ng/dL)

> Free T 24.0 (R: 7.2-24.0 pg/mL)

> E2 62 (R: 0-53 pg/mL)

> Total Estrogens 194 (R: 40-115 pg/mL)

>

> Drawn 9/23/04 (9 days after injection)

> T 685 (R: 241-827 ng/dL)

> Free T 24.0 (R: 7.2-24.0 pg/mL)

> E2 51 (R: 0-53 pg/mL)

>

> Current treatment: 200mg T-cyp subQ every 10 days, Indolplex with

DIM, one

> 120mg tablet daily. Note: Started DIM about 2 weeks before latest

E & E2

> tests. Doc suggests changing injections to 2xmonth and starting

Arimidex 2x

> week. I was on Arimidex before, drove E2 too low. Considering the

latest E2

> level, I plan to back on it again, carefully. I know I can expect

T level to

> increase as aromatization to E2 is decreased, so I see his point

about

> stretching out injections, in theory.

>

> I think I should go to 100mg T-cyp every week, because (a) I keep

hearing

> lower doses closer together provide less aromatization, ( the

smaller

> amount per shot would leave a smaller lump, and © it's easier to

keep track

> of shots on a weekly basis. (It will mean I'll be doing twice as

many injections, I

> don't have a problem with that.) The Arimidex 2xweek made me a

little worried

> about overshooting the range (a 3rd time), but I'm starting with

E2 a lot higher

> than before. Also, I've read here that DIM should be discontinued

when going

> on Arimidex.

>

> What do you think?

>

> Thanks in advance,

> Bruce

[Guest guest]

>

Nice free T levels! Can I ask if the program you're currently on has

improved your libido and drive?

Chris

> Hi,

>

> Latest and prior labs:

>

> Drawn 11/4/04 (4 days after injection)

> T 765 (R: 241-827 ng/dL)

> Free T 24.0 (R: 7.2-24.0 pg/mL)

> E2 62 (R: 0-53 pg/mL)

> Total Estrogens 194 (R: 40-115 pg/mL)

>

> Drawn 9/23/04 (9 days after injection)

> T 685 (R: 241-827 ng/dL)

> Free T 24.0 (R: 7.2-24.0 pg/mL)

> E2 51 (R: 0-53 pg/mL)

>

> Current treatment: 200mg T-cyp subQ every 10 days, Indolplex with

DIM, one

> 120mg tablet daily. Note: Started DIM about 2 weeks before latest

E & E2

> tests. Doc suggests changing injections to 2xmonth and starting

Arimidex 2x

> week. I was on Arimidex before, drove E2 too low. Considering the

latest E2

> level, I plan to back on it again, carefully. I know I can expect

T level to

> increase as aromatization to E2 is decreased, so I see his point

about

> stretching out injections, in theory.

>

> I think I should go to 100mg T-cyp every week, because (a) I keep

hearing

> lower doses closer together provide less aromatization, ( the

smaller

> amount per shot would leave a smaller lump, and © it's easier to

keep track

> of shots on a weekly basis. (It will mean I'll be doing twice as

many injections, I

> don't have a problem with that.) The Arimidex 2xweek made me a

little worried

> about overshooting the range (a 3rd time), but I'm starting with

E2 a lot higher

> than before. Also, I've read here that DIM should be discontinued

when going

> on Arimidex.

>

> What do you think?

>

> Thanks in advance,

> Bruce

[Guest guest]

Bruce you levels look dam good but the E2 is to high this test was done after

being on DIM for 2 weeks. Your doing the 200 mg shot every 10 days is going to

drive your E2 way up I have been there. If you go to 2x / month on the shots it

will be worst on you you will be on a roller coaster ride and you E2 will go

higher because of the same thing that you were doing evey 10 days. I feel that

if you do the shot 100 to 150 mgs a week you will be better off. As for the DIM

take more you can take 2 and get tested every 4 weeks.

Here is a cut & paste on what Z does.

Phil

I am amazed at the power that DIM has on me and with the effect that extremely

small adjustments to my daily dosage have on my health.

I have been on HCG since February 2000. In June 2001, I started taking a very

low dosage of DIM (about 25 mg/day of DIM complex, which equals 6.25 mg of DIM).

After a while I noticed certain changes my body was going through, and I started

adjusting the dosage in response to these changes. These changes include the

quality and restfulness of my sleep, my tendency to maintain or gain weight, the

presence or absence of a burning sensation in my lips and tongue, the

sensitivity of a certain tooth when brushing in the morning and erectile

response. Eventually, using these indicators, I developed the following protocol

for my daily DIM complex intake.

42 mg on Tues & Fri

39 mg on Wed & Sat

37 mg on Sun

26 mg on Mon & Thurs

The bulk of the above amounts are taken immediately after dinner with the

remainder spread out in very small dosages during the day. The reason the dosage

varies by day is because it's synchronized with my HCG shots (200 IU every Mon &

Thurs at bedtime). My E2 is highest the day after a shot and goes down gradually

after that. It took many months of trial and error using the indicators

discussed above to arrive at this dosage.

Before starting DIM, my T to E2 ratio was about 10 to 1 (T average of about 700

and E2 average of about 70). Now my T to E2 ratio is about 20 to 1 (T average of

about 800 and E2 average of about 40). I almost always have my blood drawn on

Saturday mornings; so, these readings represent a relative high point in my shot

cycle.

Getting the dosage right is extremely tricky and extremely critical. I use a

jeweler's scale (cost about $200) that measures to an accuracy of 2 mg (0.002 g)

to parcel out my dosage. Since one tablet weighs a little over a gram, that

translates to an accuracy of about 0.1 mg of DIM complex in adjusting my dosage.

One DIM tablet by PhytoPharmica is 120 mg of DIM complex. As you can see, my

dosage is about one-quarter of a tablet per day. The manufacturer recommends two

tablets per day.

The thing that makes adjusting the DIM dosage so difficult is that the clinical

response you get when you take too much (i.e, drop your E2 too low) feels a lot

like the response you get when you take too little (i.e., when your E2 is too

high). As a result, when you feel down, you don't know whether to increase or

decrease the dosage. That's why I learned to rely on the indicators discussed

above.

When I first tried DIM in early 2000 (using the manufacturer's recommended

dosage), I felt pretty good for a week or so and then I crashed. I stopped

taking it and then returned to normal (or at least to my previous status). I was

very confused and didn't know what to conclude other than this stuff was not for

me. It wasn't until a year and a half later that I suspected that the reason for

the negative response was that I was overdosing and, thereby, reducing my E2 too

low. So, I started taking half a tablet a day. I felt great for about 2 weeks

including more energy and stronger erections. But then I felt down again. So, I

dropped my dosage to a quarter of a tablet. That worked very well. I've been

fine tuning the dosage ever since.

That's why you'll read a lot of posters say that they tried DIM and it improved

their erections, but after a week they were as bad or worse off than before they

started. What happened was that they dropped their E2 down to the optimum level

and then went beyond it. The window of optimum E2 level is very small. Too

little E2 is not a good thing. E2 is needed for libido as well as heart, muscle

and bone health. That's why I suggest starting low (e.g., one half to one tablet

per day) and then see how it goes. If you're going to adjust from there, make

the adjustment small and keep it at that level for at least a week or so.

Observe your body's response and adjust accordingly.

Please note that I'm not suggesting that your E2 level indicators will be the

same ones as mine. Quite the contrary. I'm only suggesting that by listening to

your body, and finding YOUR indicators, you might be able to find your " right "

dosage as well.

It is very likely that I am more in tune with my body's signals than most men.

As a result, this approach would not be for everyone. I follow a very

disciplined and intense program of diet and exercise. I know very quickly when

my energy is waning.

I wish I could tell you that it was easier than this. Until we have better ways

of measuring E2, this is the best I can offer. Of course whatever you do, it's

best to verify your clinical observations with before and after blood tests.

For a discussion on how DIM improved my health in many ways, see my post

entitled " 6 of 8 -Amazing How Rebalancing T and E Improved My Health. "

-

dkrzyzek <dkrzyzek@...> wrote:

Hi Bruce -

DIM and Arimidex work in different ways, so I don't know why some

people say you have to discontinue DIM when on Arimidex. But I would

choose one or the other just to keep things simple. Arimidex drove

me too low as well, so I'm currently giving DIM a shot.

If you decide on Arimidex, just keep track of those " too low "

warning signs. Because I've been too low, I know now that as soon as

I start losing sensitivity and begin feeling foggy then I am too low

and need to stop. What is your dose?

Your T levels are great, get that E2 down and your golden!

Dave K.

>

> Hi,

>

> Latest and prior labs:

>

> Drawn 11/4/04 (4 days after injection)

> T 765 (R: 241-827 ng/dL)

> Free T 24.0 (R: 7.2-24.0 pg/mL)

> E2 62 (R: 0-53 pg/mL)

> Total Estrogens 194 (R: 40-115 pg/mL)

>

> Drawn 9/23/04 (9 days after injection)

> T 685 (R: 241-827 ng/dL)

> Free T 24.0 (R: 7.2-24.0 pg/mL)

> E2 51 (R: 0-53 pg/mL)

>

> Current treatment: 200mg T-cyp subQ every 10 days, Indolplex with

DIM, one

> 120mg tablet daily. Note: Started DIM about 2 weeks before latest

E & E2

> tests. Doc suggests changing injections to 2xmonth and starting

Arimidex 2x

> week. I was on Arimidex before, drove E2 too low. Considering the

latest E2

> level, I plan to back on it again, carefully. I know I can expect

T level to

> increase as aromatization to E2 is decreased, so I see his point

about

> stretching out injections, in theory.

>

> I think I should go to 100mg T-cyp every week, because (a) I keep

hearing

> lower doses closer together provide less aromatization, ( the

smaller

> amount per shot would leave a smaller lump, and © it's easier to

keep track

> of shots on a weekly basis. (It will mean I'll be doing twice as

many injections, I

> don't have a problem with that.) The Arimidex 2xweek made me a

little worried

> about overshooting the range (a 3rd time), but I'm starting with

E2 a lot higher

> than before. Also, I've read here that DIM should be discontinued

when going

> on Arimidex.

>

> What do you think?

>

> Thanks in advance,

> Bruce

[Guest guest]

subQ injections put the testosterone into the adipose tissue. The

adipose tissue contains aromatase which converts T to E2. Before

going the Arimidex, I would recommend changing your regiment to 100mg

Testosterone Cyp IM weekly.

>

> Hi,

>

> Latest and prior labs:

>

> Drawn 11/4/04 (4 days after injection)

> T 765 (R: 241-827 ng/dL)

> Free T 24.0 (R: 7.2-24.0 pg/mL)

> E2 62 (R: 0-53 pg/mL)

> Total Estrogens 194 (R: 40-115 pg/mL)

>

> Drawn 9/23/04 (9 days after injection)

> T 685 (R: 241-827 ng/dL)

> Free T 24.0 (R: 7.2-24.0 pg/mL)

> E2 51 (R: 0-53 pg/mL)

>

> Current treatment: 200mg T-cyp subQ every 10 days, Indolplex with

DIM, one

> 120mg tablet daily. Note: Started DIM about 2 weeks before latest E

& E2

> tests. Doc suggests changing injections to 2xmonth and starting

Arimidex 2x

> week. I was on Arimidex before, drove E2 too low. Considering the

latest E2

> level, I plan to back on it again, carefully. I know I can expect T

level to

> increase as aromatization to E2 is decreased, so I see his point about

> stretching out injections, in theory.

>

> I think I should go to 100mg T-cyp every week, because (a) I keep

hearing

> lower doses closer together provide less aromatization, ( the smaller

> amount per shot would leave a smaller lump, and © it's easier to

keep track

> of shots on a weekly basis. (It will mean I'll be doing twice as

many injections, I

> don't have a problem with that.) The Arimidex 2xweek made me a

little worried

> about overshooting the range (a 3rd time), but I'm starting with E2

a lot higher

> than before. Also, I've read here that DIM should be discontinued

when going

> on Arimidex.

>

> What do you think?

>

> Thanks in advance,

> Bruce

[Guest guest]

Thanks Dave K.,

I'll ask my doc (a great one!) about continuing DIM. He knows what he's doing.

I hear you about shooting E2 too low, BTDT. I'll be taking Arimidex 1mg

2xweek. Target E2 range is 30-40 pg/mL starting from 61. I took that dosage

before, starting at 31, concurrent with pellet implantaion. The pellets failed

for

some unknown reason, so I was driving down E2 without enough T to offset

aromatase inhibition, thus drove E2 to 15.

Bruce

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> > Latest and prior labs:

> >

> > Drawn 11/4/04 (4 days after injection)

> > T 765 (R: 241-827 ng/dL)

> > Free T 24.0 (R: 7.2-24.0 pg/mL)

> > E2 62 (R: 0-53 pg/mL)

> > Total Estrogens 194 (R: 40-115 pg/mL)

> >

> > Drawn 9/23/04 (9 days after injection)

> > T 685 (R: 241-827 ng/dL)

> > Free T 24.0 (R: 7.2-24.0 pg/mL)

> > E2 51 (R: 0-53 pg/mL)

> >

> > Current treatment: 200mg T-cyp subQ every 10 days, Indolplex with

> DIM, one

> > 120mg tablet daily. Note: Started DIM about 2 weeks before latest

> E & E2

> > tests. Doc suggests changing injections to 2xmonth and starting

> Arimidex 2x

> > week. I was on Arimidex before, drove E2 too low. Considering the

> latest E2

> > level, I plan to back on it again, carefully. I know I can expect

> T level to

> > increase as aromatization to E2 is decreased, so I see his point

> about

> > stretching out injections, in theory.

> >

> > I think I should go to 100mg T-cyp every week, because (a) I keep

> hearing

> > lower doses closer together provide less aromatization, ( the

> smaller

> > amount per shot would leave a smaller lump, and © it's easier to

> keep track

> > of shots on a weekly basis. (It will mean I'll be doing twice as

> many injections, I

> > don't have a problem with that.) The Arimidex 2xweek made me a

> little worried

> > about overshooting the range (a 3rd time), but I'm starting with

> E2 a lot higher

> > than before. Also, I've read here that DIM should be discontinued

> when going

> > on Arimidex.

> >

> > What do you think?

> >

> > Thanks in advance,

> > Bruce

[Guest guest]

Hi

I've had two periods where libido & energy improved this year when hormone

levels were right. That included a month of remission from severe CFS-like

symptoms. Right now I'm, uh, limp & foggy. I expect improvement when I get

estrogen down.

Bruce

> >

> Nice free T levels! Can I ask if the program you're currently on has

> improved your libido and drive?

>

> Chris

--

[Guest guest]

Arimidex 1mg 2x/week is actually a very high dosage. You may consider

..25mg E3D and working up from there.

> > >

> > > Hi,

> > >

> > > Latest and prior labs:

> > >

> > > Drawn 11/4/04 (4 days after injection)

> > > T 765 (R: 241-827 ng/dL)

> > > Free T 24.0 (R: 7.2-24.0 pg/mL)

> > > E2 62 (R: 0-53 pg/mL)

> > > Total Estrogens 194 (R: 40-115 pg/mL)

> > >

> > > Drawn 9/23/04 (9 days after injection)

> > > T 685 (R: 241-827 ng/dL)

> > > Free T 24.0 (R: 7.2-24.0 pg/mL)

> > > E2 51 (R: 0-53 pg/mL)

> > >

> > > Current treatment: 200mg T-cyp subQ every 10 days, Indolplex with

> > DIM, one

> > > 120mg tablet daily. Note: Started DIM about 2 weeks before latest

> > E & E2

> > > tests. Doc suggests changing injections to 2xmonth and starting

> > Arimidex 2x

> > > week. I was on Arimidex before, drove E2 too low. Considering the

> > latest E2

> > > level, I plan to back on it again, carefully. I know I can expect

> > T level to

> > > increase as aromatization to E2 is decreased, so I see his point

> > about

> > > stretching out injections, in theory.

> > >

> > > I think I should go to 100mg T-cyp every week, because (a) I keep

> > hearing

> > > lower doses closer together provide less aromatization, ( the

> > smaller

> > > amount per shot would leave a smaller lump, and © it's easier to

> > keep track

> > > of shots on a weekly basis. (It will mean I'll be doing twice as

> > many injections, I

> > > don't have a problem with that.) The Arimidex 2xweek made me a

> > little worried

> > > about overshooting the range (a 3rd time), but I'm starting with

> > E2 a lot higher

> > > than before. Also, I've read here that DIM should be discontinued

> > when going

> > > on Arimidex.

> > >

> > > What do you think?

> > >

> > > Thanks in advance,

> > > Bruce

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi,

>

> Latest and prior labs:

>

> Drawn 11/4/04 (4 days after injection)

> T 765 (R: 241-827 ng/dL)

> Free T 24.0 (R: 7.2-24.0 pg/mL)

> E2 62 (R: 0-53 pg/mL)

> Total Estrogens 194 (R: 40-115 pg/mL)

>

> Drawn 9/23/04 (9 days after injection)

> T 685 (R: 241-827 ng/dL)

> Free T 24.0 (R: 7.2-24.0 pg/mL)

> E2 51 (R: 0-53 pg/mL)

>

> Current treatment: 200mg T-cyp subQ every 10 days, Indolplex with

DIM, one

> 120mg tablet daily. Note: Started DIM about 2 weeks before latest E

& E2

> tests. Doc suggests changing injections to 2xmonth and starting

Arimidex 2x

> week. I was on Arimidex before, drove E2 too low. Considering the

latest E2

> level, I plan to back on it again, carefully. I know I can expect T

level to

> increase as aromatization to E2 is decreased, so I see his point about

> stretching out injections, in theory.

>

> I think I should go to 100mg T-cyp every week, because (a) I keep

hearing

> lower doses closer together provide less aromatization, ( the smaller

> amount per shot would leave a smaller lump, and © it's easier to

keep track

> of shots on a weekly basis. (It will mean I'll be doing twice as

many injections, I

> don't have a problem with that.) The Arimidex 2xweek made me a

little worried

> about overshooting the range (a 3rd time), but I'm starting with E2

a lot higher

> than before. Also, I've read here that DIM should be discontinued

when going

> on Arimidex.

>

> What do you think?

>

> Thanks in advance,

> Bruce

I prefer your plan to doc's plan.

For me, the peak values for test aren't really the problem. My

symptoms occur when my testosterone drops below a threshold level. I

believe that many of the problems attributed to injections are due to

trying to go too long between shots. If, like me, your symtoms

reappear on those last few days, you naturally try to compensate by

boosting your dosage. It works somewhat. The problem is that most of

the increase is released on the peak days and the several days

afterward just like the rest of the dose. That means you wind up

using a relatively large dose increase just to get a relatively small

increase in test levels on those last few days. Increasing the peak

values doesn't provide much benefit because you already had a high

enough level but it is available for aromatization or contributing to

side effects.

I don't know what dose you'll need, but you might be surprised by how

little you can get by on the more frequent schedule. The 100mg/7 days

seems like a reasonable starting point. If that amount keeps you

feeling good, you will have cut your overall dosage a fair amount.

Old plan: 400mg over 20 days vs New plan: 300mg over 21 days. A

reduction of 25%. That reduction would likely lessen your estradiol

burden by supplying less substrate to aromatise in the first place.

I suggest deferring the arimidex/DIM. It may not even be necessary.

If you do both at once and symptoms reappear, you won't know for sure

if your testosterone is too low or your estradiol is too low. Get

your total testosterone level right on the new injections schedule

first. Then re-assess your estradiol and act accordingly.

Brad

[Guest guest]

Good advice. I've been leaning in that direction. Thanks.

>

> Arimidex 1mg 2x/week is actually a very high dosage. You may consider

> .25mg E3D and working up from there.