Re: Which stimulation test to run?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/2004 7:07:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,

no_reply writes:

My personal opinion is that your liver enzymes are just a little bit

outside of the norm, nothing really compared to what I have had to

deal with and what I apparently am able to control with Liv52, Milk

Thistle, and r-ALA. Now, I'm different than you but, I would mention

it to your doc.

As for which stim test, I think your new Endo has a pretty good

point. My vote would be for the Clomid stim test as described in the

AACE guidelines. If you have not read them and provided them to your

new endo, do so. But it sounds like you have.

y

y,

Can I ask what your liver functions AST and ALT were before you went on the

liver cleansers and after a few months on them? Also, what caused your abnormal

liver function? Is it T related?

Endo, will give either Clomid test or HCG test or GNrh test. I think she is

right about GNrh, although it might be nice to know if its a hypothlamitic or

pituitary problem. If you could choose between Clomid or HCG which would you

take?

Is it true that HCG must be injected into muscle? I am the biggest needle

wimp ever. Doesn't hurt, but I am afraid of deep injections. I could learn to

live with short ones, however.

Best,

[Guest guest]

My personal opinion is that your liver enzymes are just a little bit

outside of the norm, nothing really compared to what I have had to

deal with and what I apparently am able to control with Liv52, Milk

Thistle, and r-ALA. Now, I'm different than you but, I would mention

it to your doc.

As for which stim test, I think your new Endo has a pretty good

point. My vote would be for the Clomid stim test as described in the

AACE guidelines. If you have not read them and provided them to your

new endo, do so. But it sounds like you have.

y

> I have found an endo that is willing to treat me. I would, however,

> like to run some stimulation tests first. My endo is a recent

> graduate and informs me that they didn't run such tests at the

school

> she attended. She is leaning towards the clophimine test because

she

> says testing for GNrh is pointless since determing a hypothalamus

> failure wouldn't alter the course of treatment. What do you think?

>

> Also, my liver scores are high, so I am going to see a specialist

for

> that. He would need to give the okay for the Clomid test.

>

> Any opinions on which stimulation test is best?

>

> Thanks,

>

>

>

>

> LIVER CONSIDERATION

> Mid-November

> AST: 55 from range of 2 - 50

> ALT: 51 from range of 2 - 60

>

> Early January

> AST: 44 from range of 0 - 40

> ALT: 63 from range of 0 - 40

>

>

> TESTOSTERONE

> Mid-November: 372 from range of 241-827

> Early December: 341 from range of 260-1000

> Early January: 298 from range of 241-827

>

> FREE TESTOSTERONE

> Early December: 78.5 from range of 50-210

> Early January: 13.4pg/ml from range of 9.3 - 26.5

>

> FSH

> Early December: 1.7 from range of .7 - 11.1

> Early January: 1.4 from range of 1.4-18.1

>

> LH

> Early December: 3.3 from range of .8 - 7.6

> Early January: results not back yet

>

> DHEA

> Mid December: 430 from range of 260 - 580

>

> ESTRADIOL

> Mid December: <20 from range of <20 - 56

[Guest guest]

I would vote for Clomid versus hCG only because the Clomid actually

lets you see both what the hypothalimus-pituitary response is as well

as the testes response. With Clomid, your pituitary should show high

LH as well as hopefully some sort testical response. With hCG, you

are completely bipassing the pituitary and stimulating the testicals

directly (hCH is a synthetic LH to all intense and purposes).

My Liver values were as follows (units in IU/L):

1/5/1995 (Way back to 1995)

ALT 100 range 10 - 60

AST 49 range 10 - 42

2/20/2003

ALT 67 range 9 - 33

AST 57 range 12 - 41

4/28/2003

ALT 51 range 9 - 33

AST 60 range 12 - 41

5/13/2003

ALT 65 range 9 - 33

AST 72 range 12 - 41

My last test durring the Milk Thistle, Liv52, and r-ALA were

11/30/2003

ALT - 47 range 2 - 60

AST - 28 range 2 - 50

There is nothing to indicate why my values were/are high. I do not

drink alcohol beyond 1 drink a month. Do not do drugs or steroids.

Some other interesting, and perhaps related info is that my

Hemoglobulin is always at the upper reaches of the reference range,

usually 16.1 to 17. My Ferritin levels are usually high so I make

sure to avoid any added iron supplimentation. And my Cholesterol is

very low. Currently 115 (HDL 80). All of these numbers have been

consistent from 1995 to current.

Hope that helps. Any input from others on this would be great.

Thanks.

y

> In a message dated 1/9/2004 7:07:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> no_reply writes:

> My personal opinion is that your liver enzymes are just a little

bit

> outside of the norm, nothing really compared to what I have had to

> deal with and what I apparently am able to control with Liv52, Milk

> Thistle, and r-ALA. Now, I'm different than you but, I would

mention

> it to your doc.

>

> As for which stim test, I think your new Endo has a pretty good

> point. My vote would be for the Clomid stim test as described in

the

> AACE guidelines. If you have not read them and provided them to

your

> new endo, do so. But it sounds like you have.

>

> y

> y,

>

> Can I ask what your liver functions AST and ALT were before you

went on the

> liver cleansers and after a few months on them? Also, what caused

your abnormal

> liver function? Is it T related?

>

> Endo, will give either Clomid test or HCG test or GNrh test. I

think she is

> right about GNrh, although it might be nice to know if its a

hypothlamitic or

> pituitary problem. If you could choose between Clomid or HCG which

would you

> take?

>

> Is it true that HCG must be injected into muscle? I am the biggest

needle

> wimp ever. Doesn't hurt, but I am afraid of deep injections. I

could learn to

> live with short ones, however.

>

> Best,

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

About your Ferritin, i at one point thought i had " celtic curse " which is high

iron which

can cause Hypogonadism. Found out that giving blood was the way to lower the

iron.

Also found out that ALA can help reduce iron.

> > In a message dated 1/9/2004 7:07:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> > no_reply writes:

> > My personal opinion is that your liver enzymes are just a little

> bit

> > outside of the norm, nothing really compared to what I have had to

> > deal with and what I apparently am able to control with Liv52, Milk

> > Thistle, and r-ALA. Now, I'm different than you but, I would

> mention

> > it to your doc.

> >

> > As for which stim test, I think your new Endo has a pretty good

> > point. My vote would be for the Clomid stim test as described in

> the

> > AACE guidelines. If you have not read them and provided them to

> your

> > new endo, do so. But it sounds like you have.

> >

> > y

> > y,

> >

> > Can I ask what your liver functions AST and ALT were before you

> went on the

> > liver cleansers and after a few months on them? Also, what caused

> your abnormal

> > liver function? Is it T related?

> >

> > Endo, will give either Clomid test or HCG test or GNrh test. I

> think she is

> > right about GNrh, although it might be nice to know if its a

> hypothlamitic or

> > pituitary problem. If you could choose between Clomid or HCG which

> would you

> > take?

> >

> > Is it true that HCG must be injected into muscle? I am the biggest

> needle

> > wimp ever. Doesn't hurt, but I am afraid of deep injections. I

> could learn to

> > live with short ones, however.

> >

> > Best,

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

By Celtic Curse, do you mean it's specific to your ancestory? Mine

is Norse and Celtic.

I take ALA and make sure that none of the vitamins or shakes I drink

have added iron.

y

> > > In a message dated 1/9/2004 7:07:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> > > no_reply writes:

> > > My personal opinion is that your liver enzymes are just a

little

> > bit

> > > outside of the norm, nothing really compared to what I have

had to

> > > deal with and what I apparently am able to control with Liv52,

Milk

> > > Thistle, and r-ALA. Now, I'm different than you but, I would

> > mention

> > > it to your doc.

> > >

> > > As for which stim test, I think your new Endo has a pretty good

> > > point. My vote would be for the Clomid stim test as described

in

> > the

> > > AACE guidelines. If you have not read them and provided them

to

> > your

> > > new endo, do so. But it sounds like you have.

> > >

> > > y

> > > y,

> > >

> > > Can I ask what your liver functions AST and ALT were before you

> > went on the

> > > liver cleansers and after a few months on them? Also, what

caused

> > your abnormal

> > > liver function? Is it T related?

> > >

> > > Endo, will give either Clomid test or HCG test or GNrh test. I

> > think she is

> > > right about GNrh, although it might be nice to know if its a

> > hypothlamitic or

> > > pituitary problem. If you could choose between Clomid or HCG

which

> > would you

> > > take?

> > >

> > > Is it true that HCG must be injected into muscle? I am the

biggest

> > needle

> > > wimp ever. Doesn't hurt, but I am afraid of deep injections. I

> > could learn to

> > > live with short ones, however.

> > >

> > > Best,

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hemochromatosis is a disorder in which the body absorbs more iron than is

healthy

from food. It is most common in those of Celtic origin, and since the highest

incidence of the disease does in fact occur among the residual Celtic

populations in

the UK and France (6.88%), it is also becoming known as the Celtic Curse.

50% result in hypogonadism (gonads) before cirrhosis develops

Nasty stuff it is.

http://www.tartans.com/articles/celticcurse1.html

I am French/Irish/Italian/German/Slav

> > > > In a message dated 1/9/2004 7:07:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> > > > no_reply writes:

> > > > My personal opinion is that your liver enzymes are just a

> little

> > > bit

> > > > outside of the norm, nothing really compared to what I have

> had to

> > > > deal with and what I apparently am able to control with Liv52,

> Milk

> > > > Thistle, and r-ALA. Now, I'm different than you but, I would

> > > mention

> > > > it to your doc.

> > > >

> > > > As for which stim test, I think your new Endo has a pretty good

> > > > point. My vote would be for the Clomid stim test as described

> in

> > > the

> > > > AACE guidelines. If you have not read them and provided them

> to

> > > your

> > > > new endo, do so. But it sounds like you have.

> > > >

> > > > y

> > > > y,

> > > >

> > > > Can I ask what your liver functions AST and ALT were before you

> > > went on the

> > > > liver cleansers and after a few months on them? Also, what

> caused

> > > your abnormal

> > > > liver function? Is it T related?

> > > >

> > > > Endo, will give either Clomid test or HCG test or GNrh test. I

> > > think she is

> > > > right about GNrh, although it might be nice to know if its a

> > > hypothlamitic or

> > > > pituitary problem. If you could choose between Clomid or HCG

> which

> > > would you

> > > > take?

> > > >

> > > > Is it true that HCG must be injected into muscle? I am the

> biggest

> > > needle

> > > > wimp ever. Doesn't hurt, but I am afraid of deep injections. I

> > > could learn to

> > > > live with short ones, however.

> > > >

> > > > Best,

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

,

How effective is blood letting in reducing iron levels? Would it be possible

to treat " iron induced " hypogonadism through blood letting alone?

Best,

In a message dated 1/10/2004 12:13:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,

no_reply writes:

About your Ferritin, i at one point thought i had " celtic curse " which is

high iron which

can cause Hypogonadism. Found out that giving blood was the way to lower the

iron.

Also found out that ALA can help reduce iron.

[Guest guest]

I had heard of Hemochromatosis but did not know it was associated to

any one ancestory any more than others. Hemochromatosis, or fear of

it, is one way I do not suppliment with anything containing iron. I

am still borderline on my Ferritin etc..

y

-- In , theta_2k <no_reply@y...> wrote:

> Hemochromatosis is a disorder in which the body absorbs more iron

than is healthy

> from food. It is most common in those of Celtic origin, and since

the highest

> incidence of the disease does in fact occur among the residual

Celtic populations in

> the UK and France (6.88%), it is also becoming known as the Celtic

Curse.

>

> 50% result in hypogonadism (gonads) before cirrhosis develops

>

> Nasty stuff it is.

>

> http://www.tartans.com/articles/celticcurse1.html

>

> I am French/Irish/Italian/German/Slav

>

>

>

>

>

> > > > > In a message dated 1/9/2004 7:07:51 PM Pacific Standard

Time,

> > > > > no_reply writes:

> > > > > My personal opinion is that your liver enzymes are just a

> > little

> > > > bit

> > > > > outside of the norm, nothing really compared to what I

have

> > had to

> > > > > deal with and what I apparently am able to control with

Liv52,

> > Milk

> > > > > Thistle, and r-ALA. Now, I'm different than you but, I

would

> > > > mention

> > > > > it to your doc.

> > > > >

> > > > > As for which stim test, I think your new Endo has a pretty

good

> > > > > point. My vote would be for the Clomid stim test as

described

> > in

> > > > the

> > > > > AACE guidelines. If you have not read them and provided

them

> > to

> > > > your

> > > > > new endo, do so. But it sounds like you have.

> > > > >

> > > > > y

> > > > > y,

> > > > >

> > > > > Can I ask what your liver functions AST and ALT were before

you

> > > > went on the

> > > > > liver cleansers and after a few months on them? Also, what

> > caused

> > > > your abnormal

> > > > > liver function? Is it T related?

> > > > >

> > > > > Endo, will give either Clomid test or HCG test or GNrh

test. I

> > > > think she is

> > > > > right about GNrh, although it might be nice to know if its

a

> > > > hypothlamitic or

> > > > > pituitary problem. If you could choose between Clomid or

HCG

> > which

> > > > would you

> > > > > take?

> > > > >

> > > > > Is it true that HCG must be injected into muscle? I am the

> > biggest

> > > > needle

> > > > > wimp ever. Doesn't hurt, but I am afraid of deep

injections. I

> > > > could learn to

> > > > > live with short ones, however.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best,

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

Just from reading on the web, it looks like that is the cure. You just give

blood on

some schedule to get the levels down fast and then go on another blood draw

schedule for matinance. It is very effective, the best way to do it. There is a

drug they

give to iron over-dose cases like kids getting hold of a vitamin bottle.

> ,

>

> How effective is blood letting in reducing iron levels? Would it be possible

> to treat " iron induced " hypogonadism through blood letting alone?

>

> Best,

>

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 1/10/2004 12:13:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> no_reply writes:

> About your Ferritin, i at one point thought i had " celtic curse " which is

> high iron which

> can cause Hypogonadism. Found out that giving blood was the way to lower the

> iron.

> Also found out that ALA can help reduce iron.

>

>

>

>

>