Re: injection vs other T delivery methods

[Guest guest]

I used to be on injections but was concerned about the excessive highs (at

which point more T would aromatize to E2) and then the lows before the next

injection. I then went to a T cream which did not work well for me at all -

T ended up way too low. Now I am on a gel - 2x day. This keeps my T levels

between 800 and 1000 and E2 is reasonable (with supplemental zinc in my

diet).

Drake

injection vs other T delivery methods

>

>

> I went off depoT shots a year ago and went on a spread on T gel.

> I " seemed " to work fine erectionwise, but over the past year I felt

> myself becoming noticably weaker, easier fatigued, and much, much,

> more general and especially muscular body pain. In fact to the point

> of my regular doc putting me on Bextra, an arthritis anti

> inflamatory and Hydrocodone for the pain. A complete arthritis blood

> test came up negative so we ruled that out. Then they thought I

> might have fibromylagia, a soft tissue, tendon, muscular pain all

> over and did thryroid blood work, again came back ok. For the heck

> of it I got a new bottle of 200 mg depo T a month ago and have been

> injecting 1/2 cc into my leg every week. I felt much better within

> days, almost all fatigue and body pain is gone. My question, if

> testosterone is testosterone in whatever manner supplented, why is

> it that injections seem to work so good for me? And perhaps others

> have the same experience? Any thoughts on why depoT

> injections " could " be superior for some of us?

> norton

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Norton you have just told my story but I never though of the gel doing this but

I was on Testim 10 grams and a 200 mg shot ever other week. This drove up my E2

and now that it is down I don't need shot anymore. But sence stopping the shot

I am sore all over from head to toe. I was on Vioxx now on Celebriex 100 mgs. 2

x's /day. When I get up in the morning I go straght to my spa and soke for a

half an hour. Just so I can walk on my last blood test I had them check me for

everything and nothing is wrong. I can't live like this and my Dr. says it

takes 6 to 8 weeks for the Celebriex to work and I have been on it for 7 weeks

now. I think you are on to somethiing here and if the rest of my blood work

comes back that my DHT is still very high I am going to ask to go on shots.

Phil

nort828 <nort828@...> wrote:

I went off depoT shots a year ago and went on a spread on T gel.

I " seemed " to work fine erectionwise, but over the past year I felt

myself becoming noticably weaker, easier fatigued, and much, much,

more general and especially muscular body pain. In fact to the point

of my regular doc putting me on Bextra, an arthritis anti

inflamatory and Hydrocodone for the pain. A complete arthritis blood

test came up negative so we ruled that out. Then they thought I

might have fibromylagia, a soft tissue, tendon, muscular pain all

over and did thryroid blood work, again came back ok. For the heck

of it I got a new bottle of 200 mg depo T a month ago and have been

injecting 1/2 cc into my leg every week. I felt much better within

days, almost all fatigue and body pain is gone. My question, if

testosterone is testosterone in whatever manner supplented, why is

it that injections seem to work so good for me? And perhaps others

have the same experience? Any thoughts on why depoT

injections " could " be superior for some of us?

norton

[Guest guest]

Norton,

Many of us, including myself, can't absorb T through the skin.

Mark

[Guest guest]

HI,

I have been receiving hormone pellets which dissolve gradually

directly into the blood stream over 4 months for more than 10 years.

This delivery system is ideal as it provides a constant level of T and

allows the patient to reach high levels of T in the body without

conversion of T to E2.

The body regulates hormone levels with responses such as conversion of

T to E2 when it sees a surge of the T level. It tries to compensate

for something the body sees as out of control. Spurts of hormone upset

the regulation within the body.

My doctor, Dr. Gambrell, Augusta GA, says most other forms of T

therapy do not allow the patient to reach high levels of T without

problems with conversion of T to E2. Patients do not feel the benefits

at low T levels and either continue or not. Patients given pellets

will repeat more often (65%) compared to other forms (45%).

Pellet doses are as follows:

Subtract 30 pounds from the total weight. For every 10 pounds you

should receive a 75mg pellet inserted under the skin which lasts for

about 4 months. Most doctors will not feel comfortable with that dose

as the pharmaceutical reps tell them to use lower doses.

Dr. Gambrell's web site is:

http://www.members.aol.com/gambr999/

ernestnolan

>

> I went off depoT shots a year ago and went on a spread on T gel.

> I " seemed " to work fine erectionwise, but over the past year I felt

> myself becoming noticably weaker, easier fatigued, and much, much,

> more general and especially muscular body pain. In fact to the point

> of my regular doc putting me on Bextra, an arthritis anti

> inflamatory and Hydrocodone for the pain. A complete arthritis blood

> test came up negative so we ruled that out. Then they thought I

> might have fibromylagia, a soft tissue, tendon, muscular pain all

> over and did thryroid blood work, again came back ok. For the heck

> of it I got a new bottle of 200 mg depo T a month ago and have been

> injecting 1/2 cc into my leg every week. I felt much better within

> days, almost all fatigue and body pain is gone. My question, if

> testosterone is testosterone in whatever manner supplented, why is

> it that injections seem to work so good for me? And perhaps others

> have the same experience? Any thoughts on why depoT

> injections " could " be superior for some of us?

> norton

[Guest guest]

Ernest,

how do the pellets allow the body to reach high T levels without the

conversion to E2?

Re: injection vs other T delivery methods

>

>

> HI,

>

> I have been receiving hormone pellets which dissolve gradually

> directly into the blood stream over 4 months for more than 10 years.

> This delivery system is ideal as it provides a constant level of T and

> allows the patient to reach high levels of T in the body without

> conversion of T to E2.

>

> The body regulates hormone levels with responses such as conversion of

> T to E2 when it sees a surge of the T level. It tries to compensate

> for something the body sees as out of control. Spurts of hormone upset

> the regulation within the body.

>

> My doctor, Dr. Gambrell, Augusta GA, says most other forms of T

> therapy do not allow the patient to reach high levels of T without

> problems with conversion of T to E2. Patients do not feel the benefits

> at low T levels and either continue or not. Patients given pellets

> will repeat more often (65%) compared to other forms (45%).

>

> Pellet doses are as follows:

>

> Subtract 30 pounds from the total weight. For every 10 pounds you

> should receive a 75mg pellet inserted under the skin which lasts for

> about 4 months. Most doctors will not feel comfortable with that dose

> as the pharmaceutical reps tell them to use lower doses.

>

> Dr. Gambrell's web site is:

>

> http://www.members.aol.com/gambr999/

>

> ernestnolan

>

>

> >

> > I went off depoT shots a year ago and went on a spread on T gel.

> > I " seemed " to work fine erectionwise, but over the past year I felt

> > myself becoming noticably weaker, easier fatigued, and much, much,

> > more general and especially muscular body pain. In fact to the point

> > of my regular doc putting me on Bextra, an arthritis anti

> > inflamatory and Hydrocodone for the pain. A complete arthritis blood

> > test came up negative so we ruled that out. Then they thought I

> > might have fibromylagia, a soft tissue, tendon, muscular pain all

> > over and did thryroid blood work, again came back ok. For the heck

> > of it I got a new bottle of 200 mg depo T a month ago and have been

> > injecting 1/2 cc into my leg every week. I felt much better within

> > days, almost all fatigue and body pain is gone. My question, if

> > testosterone is testosterone in whatever manner supplented, why is

> > it that injections seem to work so good for me? And perhaps others

> > have the same experience? Any thoughts on why depoT

> > injections " could " be superior for some of us?

> > norton

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ernest, how do the pellets allow the body to reach high T

levels without the conversion to E2?------

I'm not Ernest <G> but I can answer that: *gradually* via time

release. They dissolve slowly under the skin.

I was going to suggest the pellet method that Ernest has so widely

publicized as a very helpful public service.

I was also thinking of asking if you guys who inject a couple times a

week couldn't break the injection amounts down into smaller amounts

and inject *every* day. Apart from feeling like a pin cushion, the

amount of testosterone would be more evenly administered and less

likely for your bodies to go " yikes testosterone overload! " and

convert the excess to estrogen.

Hormones need to be taken consistently at a constant dose or things

can get totally out of wack.

And btw, any woman could have told you guys about the water weight

gain! LOL We endured this every month for many years - it's called

PMS and yes it's caused by estrogen! Be glad you don't have the

cramps that (for us) accompanied it! ;-)

But the vague aches and pains, lack of energy, worsening of arthritis

etc - these are (or can be) from testosterone deprivation. (I had

these symptoms until I added androgens to my estrogen/progesterone

HRT mix. In a lesser quantity of course, but same identical icky

symptoms.)

Maybe if enough of you guys start requesting pellets, the

pharmaceutical cos would drop their grudge against the doctor who

invented the pellets and develop t-pellets for widespread marketing.

Because it sure sounds like delivery methods are a problem for a lot

of men. Perhaps " thick skinned " is more than a metaphore when it

comes to transdermal delivery! (At least they haven't tried

peddling testosterone in pill form as they have done with female

HRT. If they do, 'just say no!')

Cheers,

[Guest guest]

Ernest, how do the pellets allow the body to reach high T

> levels without the conversion to E2?------

>

> I'm not Ernest <G> but I can answer that: *gradually* via time

> release. They dissolve slowly under the skin.

>

> I was going to suggest the pellet method that Ernest has so widely

> publicized as a very helpful public service.

>

> I was also thinking of asking if you guys who inject a couple

times a

> week couldn't break the injection amounts down into smaller

amounts

> and inject *every* day. Apart from feeling like a pin cushion,

the

> amount of testosterone would be more evenly administered and less

> likely for your bodies to go " yikes testosterone overload! " and

> convert the excess to estrogen.

>

> Hormones need to be taken consistently at a constant dose or

things

> can get totally out of wack.

>

> And btw, any woman could have told you guys about the water weight

> gain! LOL We endured this every month for many years - it's

called

> PMS and yes it's caused by estrogen! Be glad you don't have the

> cramps that (for us) accompanied it! ;-)

>

> But the vague aches and pains, lack of energy, worsening of

arthritis

> etc - these are (or can be) from testosterone deprivation. (I

had

> these symptoms until I added androgens to my estrogen/progesterone

> HRT mix. In a lesser quantity of course, but same identical icky

> symptoms.)

>

> Maybe if enough of you guys start requesting pellets, the

> pharmaceutical cos would drop their grudge against the doctor who

> invented the pellets and develop t-pellets for widespread

marketing.

>

> Because it sure sounds like delivery methods are a problem for a

lot

> of men. Perhaps " thick skinned " is more than a metaphore when it

> comes to transdermal delivery! (At least they haven't tried

> peddling testosterone in pill form as they have done with female

> HRT. If they do, 'just say no!')

>

> Cheers,

-----------------------------------------

Hi !

I have thought about breaking down my 1/2 cc of 200mg depo T into

smaller more frequent shots, if so I would quess that would be

something less than 1/10 of one cc a day. Yes, if that better

controls the conversion to estrogen seems like a good idea, but I

don't think I want to have to think about and actually stick myself

every day. Not because I fear the stick so much as the

inconvenience of doing so. I have found a doctor who regularly does

pellet implants Testosterone in women, and he has agreed to stick

them in me anytime, we have the dosage figured. I do want to try

this, certainly Ernest is very high on the idea. I recall one

lister stating it did not work at all for him, was it Bruce? On

another subject, just curious, why do you need supplemental T

? My wife had her ovaries removed 15 years ago and tested out

at zero T, and she does a daily 1/4 teaspoon T gel spread on

delivers the roughly 2-3g of daily T a female needs is my

understanding, and has helped her migraines and overal health a

great deal as I previously posted.

best

norton

[Guest guest]

Not because I fear the stick so much as the inconvenience of doing

so.-----

I can't blame you. From a practical point of view, daily injections

are not something anyone would relish.

---I have found a doctor who regularly does pellet implants

Testosterone in women, and he has agreed to stick them in me anytime,

we have the dosage figured. ----

This method does sound like the most effective, although more

expensive and less convenient than the gels. But it seems

transdermal absorption just doesn't work for a lot of guys.

---I do want to try this, certainly Ernest is very high on the idea.

I recall one lister stating it did not work at all for him, was it

Bruce? ----

I can't remember the post, but one rule seems be that not everything

works for everyone.

----On another subject, just curious, why do you need supplemental T

? My wife had her ovaries removed 15 years ago and tested out

at zero T-----

For the same reason as your wife, although in my case age-related

menopause - hormone production ceasing due to old age <G>

Prescribed estrogen & progesterone HRT pills never made it through my

digestive system and in their infinite wisdom, the gyn research

community's recommended HRT protocol does not address the need for

replenishment of androgens.

After enduring their botched treatment for 10 years, I did my own

research and switched to gels, patches etc of all 3 hormone

groups...and *finally* feel normal again. But that's another story..

My question is why does the doctor you found implant women with

testosterone pellets only? It seems he should also be implanting E

and P pellets? But maybe he does and you just happened to mention T

since that is the relevant hormone to this discussion?

------ and she does a daily 1/4 teaspoon T gel spread on delivers the

roughly 2-3g of daily T a female needs is my understanding, and has

helped her migraines and overal health a great deal as I previously

posted.----

Oh I'm sure she feels better! Like a new woman no doubt, thanks to

her hubby's quick thinking.

Nope, no one needs 2-3 grams of T daily, man or woman! You must mean

2-3 grams (maybe mgs?) of GEL which contain a miniscule amount of

testosterone. (2 gram of 1% t gel = 2,000 mg of GEL which contains

10mg of T And that still sounds high, but I might be wrong.)

Best of luck w/ the pellets and let us know if they work better.

R

[Guest guest]

Hi -

you sound quite experienced about HRT! Have you considered going with the

pellets? If not, why not?

Re: injection vs other T delivery methods

>

>

>

> Not because I fear the stick so much as the inconvenience of doing

> so.-----

>

> I can't blame you. From a practical point of view, daily injections

> are not something anyone would relish.

>

> ---I have found a doctor who regularly does pellet implants

> Testosterone in women, and he has agreed to stick them in me anytime,

> we have the dosage figured. ----

>

> This method does sound like the most effective, although more

> expensive and less convenient than the gels. But it seems

> transdermal absorption just doesn't work for a lot of guys.

>

> ---I do want to try this, certainly Ernest is very high on the idea.

> I recall one lister stating it did not work at all for him, was it

> Bruce? ----

>

> I can't remember the post, but one rule seems be that not everything

> works for everyone.

>

> ----On another subject, just curious, why do you need supplemental T

> ? My wife had her ovaries removed 15 years ago and tested out

> at zero T-----

>

> For the same reason as your wife, although in my case age-related

> menopause - hormone production ceasing due to old age <G>

>

> Prescribed estrogen & progesterone HRT pills never made it through my

> digestive system and in their infinite wisdom, the gyn research

> community's recommended HRT protocol does not address the need for

> replenishment of androgens.

> After enduring their botched treatment for 10 years, I did my own

> research and switched to gels, patches etc of all 3 hormone

> groups...and *finally* feel normal again. But that's another story..

>

> My question is why does the doctor you found implant women with

> testosterone pellets only? It seems he should also be implanting E

> and P pellets? But maybe he does and you just happened to mention T

> since that is the relevant hormone to this discussion?

>

> ------ and she does a daily 1/4 teaspoon T gel spread on delivers the

> roughly 2-3g of daily T a female needs is my understanding, and has

> helped her migraines and overal health a great deal as I previously

> posted.----

>

> Oh I'm sure she feels better! Like a new woman no doubt, thanks to

> her hubby's quick thinking.

>

> Nope, no one needs 2-3 grams of T daily, man or woman! You must mean

> 2-3 grams (maybe mgs?) of GEL which contain a miniscule amount of

> testosterone. (2 gram of 1% t gel = 2,000 mg of GEL which contains

> 10mg of T And that still sounds high, but I might be wrong.)

>

> Best of luck w/ the pellets and let us know if they work better.

> R

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I had a pellet implantation fail for unknown reasons. I suspect if I try it

again it

will work.

Bruce

>

> I recall one lister stating it (pellet implantation) did not work at all for

him,

was it

> Bruce? ----

>

> I can't remember the post, but one rule seems be that not everything

> works for everyone.

--

[Guest guest]

> I was also thinking of asking if you guys who inject a couple times a

> week couldn't break the injection amounts down into smaller amounts

> and inject *every* day. Apart from feeling like a pin cushion, the

> amount of testosterone would be more evenly administered and less

> likely for your bodies to go " yikes testosterone overload! " and

> convert the excess to estrogen.

>

Well i am on sub-q injections 60mg every 3-4 days depending on how i feel. There

are no

peaks and valleys.

Even at 150mg every 7-10 days, i did not notice much of this peaks and valleys

that some

talk about.

I plan to try Testosterone Suspension at some point in the future which would

require daily

sub-q injections of around 10mg. It will be interesting to see how that works.

I have tried Restandol (testosterone undecanoate) which is a oral. This is one

of the best

types of testosterone i have tried. It is in a 40mg pill, but less then 10mg

gets into your

system, and it slow release. Very very nice, but not used in the USA.

[Guest guest]

Well i am on sub-q injections 60mg every 3-4 days depending on how i

feel. ...Even at 150mg every 7-10 days, i did not notice much of this

peaks and valleys that some talk about.--

Hi , I imagine reactions vary depending on a man's individual

physiology. Body weight and other factors can have a bearing on

testosterone converting to estrogen. You must be one of the lucky

ones.

---- I plan to try Testosterone Suspension at some point in the

future which would require daily sub-q injections of around 10mg. It

will be interesting to see how that works.------

Why are you planning to switch if the current regimen works well?

Just wondering.. Will be interesting to know if the daily smaller

doses work better.

--- I have tried Restandol (testosterone undecanoate) which is a

oral. This is one of the best types of testosterone i have tried. It

is in a 40mg pill, but less then 10mg gets into your system, and it

slow release. Very very nice, but not used in the USA.----

I just can't agree with you on oral hormones. For many, 0 mgs or

very few survive the trip through the digestive system. Even if you

are able to utilize 10 mg of T, what is the other 30 mg doing to your

liver??

I'm incensed at the gyn research community. They ran all their

clinical trials over the past 10 years using oral estrogens and

progesterones, administering as much as 75% in excess of the amount

these women needed, in the vain hope that some of the drugs would

survive. When (very ambiguous) evidence of health risks cropped up,

they stopped the test for the E & P group (although the estrogen only

group is still being monitored) and created a frenzied backlash

against HRT.

These health risks could have been cut by at least a 3rd and probably

considerably more, had the test subjects been given smaller doses of

the more effective non-oral gels, patches, inserts, or sub-cutaneous

capsules.

The researchers left out the androgen group altogether. There is now

emerging evidence from trials of DHEA and testosterone replacement

currently under way, that adding androgens to the standard protocol

of estrogen and progesterone replacement therapy will remove the risk

factors.

I followed their recommended HRT protocol for 10 yrs while my hormone

levels sank down to nothing - I might as well have thrown the pills

out the window for all the good they did. When I hit rock bottom I

took matters into my own hands.

You men are miles ahead of us women in effective treatment options,

and it is only because of the success of non-oral TRT in males (and

corresponding financial gains for the pharmaceutical cos) that they

are now researching and developing female versions of non-oral HRT.

[Guest guest]

Hi - you sound quite experienced about HRT! Have you

considered going with the pellets? If not, why not?--

No, simply because other less expensive and more readily available

non-oral HRT delivery means work fine for me. Most women seem to get

good absorption with transdermal patches. Patches were effective for

me.

Also we do not have the prohibition that men have against using

creams and gels on our genital area. (I don't really understand why

androgel carries this warning for men; does anyone know what the

danger is?) Thus we can and do apply these creams, gels, vaginal

suppositories etc to mucus membranes where they are readily and more

completely absorbed.

[Guest guest]

I had a pellet implantation fail for unknown reasons. I suspect if I

try it again it will work.----

Thanks for the reply, Bruce. Sorry the pellets didn't work. Wonder

how common these failures are..

[Guest guest]

Testosterone is available in pill form - it is the only form of testosterone

with studies to show that it lowers HDL and increases risk of heart attack.

I believe there are other negative affects of swallowed testosterone as

well.

> Re: injection vs other T delivery methods

>

>

>

> Ernest, how do the pellets allow the body to reach

> high T levels without the conversion to E2?------

>

> I'm not Ernest <G> but I can answer that: *gradually* via

> time release. They dissolve slowly under the skin.

>

> I was going to suggest the pellet method that Ernest has so

> widely publicized as a very helpful public service.

>

> I was also thinking of asking if you guys who inject a couple

> times a week couldn't break the injection amounts down into

> smaller amounts and inject *every* day. Apart from feeling

> like a pin cushion, the amount of testosterone would be more

> evenly administered and less likely for your bodies to go

> " yikes testosterone overload! " and convert the excess to estrogen.

>

> Hormones need to be taken consistently at a constant dose or

> things can get totally out of wack.

>

> And btw, any woman could have told you guys about the water

> weight gain! LOL We endured this every month for many years

> - it's called PMS and yes it's caused by estrogen! Be glad

> you don't have the

> cramps that (for us) accompanied it! ;-)

>

> But the vague aches and pains, lack of energy, worsening of arthritis

> etc - these are (or can be) from testosterone deprivation. (I had

> these symptoms until I added androgens to my

> estrogen/progesterone HRT mix. In a lesser quantity of

> course, but same identical icky

> symptoms.)

>

> Maybe if enough of you guys start requesting pellets, the

> pharmaceutical cos would drop their grudge against the doctor

> who invented the pellets and develop t-pellets for widespread

> marketing.

>

> Because it sure sounds like delivery methods are a problem

> for a lot of men. Perhaps " thick skinned " is more than a

> metaphore when it

> comes to transdermal delivery! (At least they haven't tried

> peddling testosterone in pill form as they have done with

> female HRT. If they do, 'just say no!')

>

> Cheers,

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think the reasons for not putting AG on the scrotum is twofold - there are

a lot of 5-AR receptors in the area, so DHT becomes a concern, and more

immediate concern is the alcohol base stings the scrotum. I put a little AG

on mine each morning, and boy it stung like hell the first few times, but

not anymore.

> Re: injection vs other T delivery methods

>

>

>

> Hi - you sound quite

> experienced about HRT! Have you considered going with the

> pellets? If not, why not?--

>

> No, simply because other less expensive and more readily

> available non-oral HRT delivery means work fine for me. Most

> women seem to get good absorption with transdermal patches.

> Patches were effective for me.

>

> Also we do not have the prohibition that men have against

> using creams and gels on our genital area. (I don't really

> understand why androgel carries this warning for men; does

> anyone know what the danger is?) Thus we can and do apply

> these creams, gels, vaginal suppositories etc to mucus

> membranes where they are readily and more completely absorbed.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

-

I would watch the oral with your liver. That type goes through the liver

twice.

>From: " theta_2k " <pohare@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: injection vs other T delivery methods

>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 06:33:07 -0000

>

>

>

> > I was also thinking of asking if you guys who inject a couple times a

> > week couldn't break the injection amounts down into smaller amounts

> > and inject *every* day. Apart from feeling like a pin cushion, the

> > amount of testosterone would be more evenly administered and less

> > likely for your bodies to go " yikes testosterone overload! " and

> > convert the excess to estrogen.

> >

>

>Well i am on sub-q injections 60mg every 3-4 days depending on how i feel.

>There are no

>peaks and valleys.

>

>Even at 150mg every 7-10 days, i did not notice much of this peaks and

>valleys that some

>talk about.

>

>I plan to try Testosterone Suspension at some point in the future which

>would require daily

>sub-q injections of around 10mg. It will be interesting to see how that

>works.

>

>I have tried Restandol (testosterone undecanoate) which is a oral. This is

>one of the best

>types of testosterone i have tried. It is in a 40mg pill, but less then

>10mg gets into your

>system, and it slow release. Very very nice, but not used in the USA.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi , I imagine reactions vary depending on a man's individual

> physiology. Body weight and other factors can have a bearing on

> testosterone converting to estrogen. You must be one of the lucky

> ones.

I seem to have low estrogn and don't take anything to reduce it. It is very odd.

> Why are you planning to switch if the current regimen works well?

> Just wondering.. Will be interesting to know if the daily smaller

> doses work better.

Just to test it out, no other reason.

> I just can't agree with you on oral hormones. For many, 0 mgs or

> very few survive the trip through the digestive system. Even if you

> are able to utilize 10 mg of T, what is the other 30 mg doing to your

> liver??

Restandol does not go through the liver. it is very safe and yes only 10mg out

of 40mg

gets into the system.

> The researchers left out the androgen group altogether. There is now

> emerging evidence from trials of DHEA and testosterone replacement

> currently under way, that adding androgens to the standard protocol

> of estrogen and progesterone replacement therapy will remove the risk

> factors.

My wife's HRT has testosterone and DHEA. She is interested in trying out the

non-oral

route for these two. There is even some research for transdermal thyroid.

>

[Guest guest]

They are not to common I tryed pellets 15 yrs ago and it only lasted for a month

and the Dr. could not give me more for 3 more months. So I will not try them

again.

Phil

Summers <rsummers@...> wrote:

I had a pellet implantation fail for unknown reasons. I suspect if I

try it again it will work.----

Thanks for the reply, Bruce. Sorry the pellets didn't work. Wonder

how common these failures are..

[Guest guest]

Hi , I'd say a failure like mine is extremely rare. My doc's done a lot of

these & this is his only failure, he was shocked. We checked everything, the

cause remains unknown.

Someone here had a failure due to dosage miscalculation. Phil just posted a

problem from the past, maybe techniques are better now. I think someone

here also linked to a news story where a guy had accidentally received

estrogen pellets...

I think pellets from a good pharmacy implanted by a good doc should work

well. Possibility of failure is so remote it shouldn't be a major concern.

Bruce

> Thanks for the reply, Bruce. Sorry the pellets didn't work. Wonder

> how common these failures are..

[Guest guest]

>

> -

>

> I would watch the oral with your liver. That type goes through the liver

> twice.

Here is some info on Testosterone undecanoate

17-[(1-Oxoundecyl)oxy]-androst-4-en-3-one

Testosterone undecanoate is able to bypass the liver via the lymphatic system

and is

therefore orally active.

This compound contains 40 mg of testosterone undecanoate, based in oil (oleic

acid) and

sealed inside a capsule. Subtracting the ester weight, this equates to a dosage

of

approximately 25mg of raw testosterone per cap.

There are many studies on TU and none have shown a change in liver values, also

TU has

been show to decrease SHBG.

In 35 men treated with testosterone undecanoate (TU) at a dosage of 80-200

mg/day,

liver function was measured every 6 months for a period of 72 months. None of

the

parameters changed.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

As I understand it, pharmaceutical houses can not make money on

hormone pellets so they are only provided by compounding pharmacies

who do not advertise much as the profit margine does not allow it.

What pharmaceutical companies do want is profit and they have found

ways of getting into the hormone therapy area by a introducing other

products that do not work as well. The gels, creams are more expensive

than injections which are relatively cheap but painful. They do not

let doctors know that 10-25% of women do not benefit correctly from

their products because the liver does not metabolize the hormone into

the blood stream efficiently.

The pellets were available in the 50's and are a superior form of T

and E therapy which have been used successfully by Dr. Gambrell in

women for decades in Augusta GA.

The one person that did not have any benefit from the pellets was the

first I have heard of and one of a very few that have been seen by my

doctor. He feels something is causing this effect and he was not able

to treat him long enough to solve the problem as I remember the event.

ernestnolan

Ernest, how do the pellets allow the body to reach high T

> levels without the conversion to E2?------

>

> I'm not Ernest <G> but I can answer that: *gradually* via time

> release. They dissolve slowly under the skin.

>

> I was going to suggest the pellet method that Ernest has so widely

> publicized as a very helpful public service.

>

> I was also thinking of asking if you guys who inject a couple times a

> week couldn't break the injection amounts down into smaller amounts

> and inject *every* day. Apart from feeling like a pin cushion, the

> amount of testosterone would be more evenly administered and less

> likely for your bodies to go " yikes testosterone overload! " and

> convert the excess to estrogen.

>

> Hormones need to be taken consistently at a constant dose or things

> can get totally out of wack.

>

> And btw, any woman could have told you guys about the water weight

> gain! LOL We endured this every month for many years - it's called

> PMS and yes it's caused by estrogen! Be glad you don't have the

> cramps that (for us) accompanied it! ;-)

>

> But the vague aches and pains, lack of energy, worsening of arthritis

> etc - these are (or can be) from testosterone deprivation. (I had

> these symptoms until I added androgens to my estrogen/progesterone

> HRT mix. In a lesser quantity of course, but same identical icky

> symptoms.)

>

> Maybe if enough of you guys start requesting pellets, the

> pharmaceutical cos would drop their grudge against the doctor who

> invented the pellets and develop t-pellets for widespread marketing.

>

> Because it sure sounds like delivery methods are a problem for a lot

> of men. Perhaps " thick skinned " is more than a metaphore when it

> comes to transdermal delivery! (At least they haven't tried

> peddling testosterone in pill form as they have done with female

> HRT. If they do, 'just say no!')

>

> Cheers,

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I have talked with you many times before and am very impressed with

your taking on this subject and bringing yourself a good solution

using a blend of both T and E.

It is not commonly known that Dr. Greenblatt who taught hormone

therapy in Georgia Medical College in Augusta, GA trained many doctors

in hormone therapy using both estrogen and testosterone pellets since

the 50's. Dr. Gambrell is now in the same office as Dr. Greenblatt,

now deceased.

ernestnolan

> Well i am on sub-q injections 60mg every 3-4 days depending on how i

> feel. ...Even at 150mg every 7-10 days, i did not notice much of this

> peaks and valleys that some talk about.--

>

> Hi , I imagine reactions vary depending on a man's individual

> physiology. Body weight and other factors can have a bearing on

> testosterone converting to estrogen. You must be one of the lucky

> ones.

>

> ---- I plan to try Testosterone Suspension at some point in the

> future which would require daily sub-q injections of around 10mg. It

> will be interesting to see how that works.------

>

> Why are you planning to switch if the current regimen works well?

> Just wondering.. Will be interesting to know if the daily smaller

> doses work better.

>

> --- I have tried Restandol (testosterone undecanoate) which is a

> oral. This is one of the best types of testosterone i have tried. It

> is in a 40mg pill, but less then 10mg gets into your system, and it

> slow release. Very very nice, but not used in the USA.----

>

> I just can't agree with you on oral hormones. For many, 0 mgs or

> very few survive the trip through the digestive system. Even if you

> are able to utilize 10 mg of T, what is the other 30 mg doing to your

> liver??

>

> I'm incensed at the gyn research community. They ran all their

> clinical trials over the past 10 years using oral estrogens and

> progesterones, administering as much as 75% in excess of the amount

> these women needed, in the vain hope that some of the drugs would

> survive. When (very ambiguous) evidence of health risks cropped up,

> they stopped the test for the E & P group (although the estrogen only

> group is still being monitored) and created a frenzied backlash

> against HRT.

>

> These health risks could have been cut by at least a 3rd and probably

> considerably more, had the test subjects been given smaller doses of

> the more effective non-oral gels, patches, inserts, or sub-cutaneous

> capsules.

>

> The researchers left out the androgen group altogether. There is now

> emerging evidence from trials of DHEA and testosterone replacement

> currently under way, that adding androgens to the standard protocol

> of estrogen and progesterone replacement therapy will remove the risk

> factors.

>

> I followed their recommended HRT protocol for 10 yrs while my hormone

> levels sank down to nothing - I might as well have thrown the pills

> out the window for all the good they did. When I hit rock bottom I

> took matters into my own hands.

>

> You men are miles ahead of us women in effective treatment options,

> and it is only because of the success of non-oral TRT in males (and

> corresponding financial gains for the pharmaceutical cos) that they

> are now researching and developing female versions of non-oral HRT.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

CORRECTION

The oral forms of estorgen are not 100% effective as many women can

not metabolize the hormone in their liver. Heard it can be somewhere

between 10% to 25% of all women and those that complain about poor

results are told nothing about possible problems with their livers

ability to use it correctly. This leaves them suffering without any

solution which to me is poor medicine.

ernenstnolan

> Not because I fear the stick so much as the inconvenience of doing

> so.-----

>

> I can't blame you. From a practical point of view, daily injections

> are not something anyone would relish.

>

> ---I have found a doctor who regularly does pellet implants

> Testosterone in women, and he has agreed to stick them in me anytime,

> we have the dosage figured. ----

>

> This method does sound like the most effective, although more

> expensive and less convenient than the gels. But it seems

> transdermal absorption just doesn't work for a lot of guys.

>

> ---I do want to try this, certainly Ernest is very high on the idea.

> I recall one lister stating it did not work at all for him, was it

> Bruce? ----

>

> I can't remember the post, but one rule seems be that not everything

> works for everyone.

>

> ----On another subject, just curious, why do you need supplemental T

> ? My wife had her ovaries removed 15 years ago and tested out

> at zero T-----

>

> For the same reason as your wife, although in my case age-related

> menopause - hormone production ceasing due to old age <G>

>

> Prescribed estrogen & progesterone HRT pills never made it through my

> digestive system and in their infinite wisdom, the gyn research

> community's recommended HRT protocol does not address the need for

> replenishment of androgens.

> After enduring their botched treatment for 10 years, I did my own

> research and switched to gels, patches etc of all 3 hormone

> groups...and *finally* feel normal again. But that's another story..

>

> My question is why does the doctor you found implant women with

> testosterone pellets only? It seems he should also be implanting E

> and P pellets? But maybe he does and you just happened to mention T

> since that is the relevant hormone to this discussion?

>

> ------ and she does a daily 1/4 teaspoon T gel spread on delivers the

> roughly 2-3g of daily T a female needs is my understanding, and has

> helped her migraines and overal health a great deal as I previously

> posted.----

>

> Oh I'm sure she feels better! Like a new woman no doubt, thanks to

> her hubby's quick thinking.

>

> Nope, no one needs 2-3 grams of T daily, man or woman! You must mean

> 2-3 grams (maybe mgs?) of GEL which contain a miniscule amount of

> testosterone. (2 gram of 1% t gel = 2,000 mg of GEL which contains

> 10mg of T And that still sounds high, but I might be wrong.)

>

> Best of luck w/ the pellets and let us know if they work better.

> R