RE: Ergopharm 6-OXO

[Guest guest]

> If DIM lowers DHT, do you know by how much (is it a lot, or

negligible)?

Here's a summary of my blood tests up to January 2003.

T E2 DHT

708 39 39

782 55 44

798 68 49

895 40 35

696 55 46

921 87 44

889 30 29

1202 71 46

534 38 36

1115 80 48

The pattern I noticed is that my E2 and DHT go up and down together as

long as my E2 is in the normal range (<50). When my E2 goes above the

normal range, my DHT stays just below in the middle of the normal range

(DHT range is 25 to 75). This pattern shows up better if we only look

at the results when my E2 was < 50:

T E2 DHT

708 39 39

895 40 35

889 30 29

534 38 36

And then we only look at the results when my E2 was > 50:

T E2 DHT

782 55 44

798 68 49

696 55 46

921 87 44

1202 71 46

1115 80 48

Interesting, eh? But what does it all mean? I discovered this pattern

in January 2003, but didn't have any explanation. Now it occurs to me

that DIM/Indolplex may have something to do with it. If that's the

case, the strange thing is that DIM doesn't impact DHT until E2 is

reduced to about 50, then E2 and DHT go down together from there in

equal amounts.

> Does this 6-OXO stuff also lower DHT in a similar way?

I dunno, but I'd be curious to learn more about how 6-OXO works.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Z,....very interesting information.

>

> > If DIM lowers DHT, do you know by how much (is it a lot, or

> negligible)?

>

> Here's a summary of my blood tests up to January 2003.

>

> T E2 DHT

>

> 708 39 39

> 782 55 44

> 798 68 49

> 895 40 35

> 696 55 46

> 921 87 44

> 889 30 29

> 1202 71 46

> 534 38 36

> 1115 80 48

>

> The pattern I noticed is that my E2 and DHT go up and down together

as

> long as my E2 is in the normal range (<50). When my E2 goes above

the

> normal range, my DHT stays just below in the middle of the normal

range

> (DHT range is 25 to 75). This pattern shows up better if we only

look

> at the results when my E2 was < 50:

>

> T E2 DHT

>

> 708 39 39

> 895 40 35

> 889 30 29

> 534 38 36

>

> And then we only look at the results when my E2 was > 50:

>

> T E2 DHT

>

> 782 55 44

> 798 68 49

> 696 55 46

> 921 87 44

> 1202 71 46

> 1115 80 48

>

> Interesting, eh? But what does it all mean? I discovered this

pattern

> in January 2003, but didn't have any explanation. Now it occurs to

me

> that DIM/Indolplex may have something to do with it. If that's the

> case, the strange thing is that DIM doesn't impact DHT until E2 is

> reduced to about 50, then E2 and DHT go down together from there in

> equal amounts.

>

> > Does this 6-OXO stuff also lower DHT in a similar way?

>

> I dunno, but I'd be curious to learn more about how 6-OXO works.

[Guest guest]

> > Does this 6-OXO stuff also lower DHT in a similar way?

>

> I dunno, but I'd be curious to learn more about how 6-OXO works.

According to the website :

.. It is what science refers to as a " suicide inhibitor " of aromatase.

Specifically this means that it will irreversibly bind to the aromatase

enzyme and permanently deactivate it. With prolonged use of 6-OXO the result

will be a very substantial reduction in the production of estrogen in the

body, along with a coinciding up-regulation of natural (testicular)

testosterone production.

Another quote that might interest you:

This is the first proven aromatase inhibitor, not some ineffective herb like

chrysin or indole-3-carbinol that never delivered results.

Isn't Indole-3-carbinol the same thing as DIM?

[Guest guest]

> > I'd be curious to learn more about how 6-OXO works.

>

> According to the website :

> . It is what science refers to as a " suicide inhibitor " of aromatase.

> Specifically this means that it will irreversibly bind to the

aromatase

> enzyme and permanently deactivate it. With prolonged use of 6-OXO the

result

> will be a very substantial reduction in the production of estrogen in

the

> body, along with a coinciding up-regulation of natural (testicular)

> testosterone production.

Yes, I have read that. My question is - Why don't they promote 6-OXO

for men's health (ie, anti-aging for non-bodybuilders) and for men on

TRT? Do they believe that the bodybuilding market is so much larger

that they can ignore these markets?

Also, why haven't more men who aren't bodybuilders tried 6-OXO? The

problem with bodybuilders and 6-OXO is that they don't take blood tests.

Anecdotal evidence without blood tests is of very little value. If men

on TRT tried 6-OXO, we would have some blood test results to better

evaluate the performance of this supplement.

> Another quote that might interest you:

>

> This is the first proven aromatase inhibitor, not some ineffective

herb like

> chrysin or indole-3-carbinol that never delivered results.

This is just marketing hype. Chrysin and IC3 don't produce results.

DIM/Indolplex does, but not for some men. Did you notice they didn't

list DIM/Indolplex?

> Isn't Indole-3-carbinol the same thing as DIM?

Almost. IC3 converts to DIM in your gut. The problem is that the DIM

converted from IC3 in your gut is not bioavailable because it's digested

before it gets to the liver. Also, IC3 is not very stable which means

that it goes bad while sitting on your shelf.

[Guest guest]

Couldn't this be dangerous? After all, we need estrogen, and if you

lose some of the aromatase enzyme naturally (say, though lowering body

fat) in addition to that " killed " by this, couldn't you risk not being

able to produce enough estrogen?

Just an uneducated SWAG,

Mark

>

> According to the website :

> . It is what science refers to as a " suicide inhibitor " of aromatase.

> Specifically this means that it will irreversibly bind to the aromatase

> enzyme and permanently deactivate it. With prolonged use of 6-OXO

the result

> will be a very substantial reduction in the production of estrogen

in the

> body, along with a coinciding up-regulation of natural (testicular)

> testosterone production.

>

[Guest guest]

No if this were the case then a lot of breast cancer would be gone. Just my

thoughts.

Phil

mdw1000 <mdw1000@...> wrote:

Couldn't this be dangerous? After all, we need estrogen, and if you

lose some of the aromatase enzyme naturally (say, though lowering body

fat) in addition to that " killed " by this, couldn't you risk not being

able to produce enough estrogen?

Just an uneducated SWAG,

Mark

>

> According to the website :

> . It is what science refers to as a " suicide inhibitor " of aromatase.

> Specifically this means that it will irreversibly bind to the aromatase

> enzyme and permanently deactivate it. With prolonged use of 6-OXO

the result

> will be a very substantial reduction in the production of estrogen

in the

> body, along with a coinciding up-regulation of natural (testicular)

> testosterone production.

>

[Guest guest]

> Couldn't this be dangerous?

> After all, we need estrogen, and if you

> lose some of the aromatase enzyme

> naturally (say, though lowering body

> fat) in addition to that " killed " by this,

> couldn't you risk not being

> able to produce enough estrogen?

Good question.

For men who are NOT on TRT, according to the manufacturer 6-OXO has an

excellent mechanism for avoiding low E2. When the h/p axis see less E2,

it responds by making more T. As a result, the studies cited by the

manufacturer say that E2 stays about the same, but T goes up!

For men on standard TRT (shots, gels, patches, etc.), 6-OXO would

probably have the same risk of low E2 as Arimidex or DIM.

For men on HCG, I suspect that the answer would be somewhere in between

the two above depending upon the responsiveness of one's h/p axis.

[Guest guest]

Fascinating! So, what then of good ol' DHT? This discussion has revealed the

possibility (?) that DIM, and possibly even zinc, have an adverse effect on DHT.

The description of the 6-OXO mechanism disabling aromatase makes sense for

lowering E2. Does anyone know though whether 6-OXO might also attack the

5-alpha reductase enzyme in a similar fashion? Also, someone mentioned being

able to buy 6-OXO at GNC, but my visit yesterday came up empty and they didn't

seem to know about it.

Thanks.../Dale

Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO

> Couldn't this be dangerous?

> After all, we need estrogen, and if you

> lose some of the aromatase enzyme

> naturally (say, though lowering body

> fat) in addition to that " killed " by this,

> couldn't you risk not being

> able to produce enough estrogen?

Good question.

For men who are NOT on TRT, according to the manufacturer 6-OXO has an

excellent mechanism for avoiding low E2. When the h/p axis see less E2,

it responds by making more T. As a result, the studies cited by the

manufacturer say that E2 stays about the same, but T goes up!

For men on standard TRT (shots, gels, patches, etc.), 6-OXO would

probably have the same risk of low E2 as Arimidex or DIM.

For men on HCG, I suspect that the answer would be somewhere in between

the two above depending upon the responsiveness of one's h/p axis.

[Guest guest]

> Fascinating! So, what then of good ol' DHT? This discussion has

revealed the possibility (?) that DIM, and possibly even zinc, have an

adverse effect on DHT. The description of the 6-OXO mechanism disabling

aromatase makes sense for lowering E2. Does anyone know though whether

6-OXO might also attack the 5-alpha reductase enzyme in a similar

fashion?

I dunno. That why I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has

tried it. Heck, I might even try it myself!

I should also note that DIM/Indolplex should theoretically work that way

too for men NOT on TRT (i.e. raise T), but I have not heard of anyone

claiming this. But then, if they're not on T they probably can't get a

doctor's script for blood tests either. :-(

[Guest guest]

-

I'm planning on trying DIM after my next doctor's appointment later

this month. I'm not on any TRT at all, just Arimidex. I'm going to

try to get tested every month or so to see what effect it has on T/E2

ratio. My endo has been great so far so I don't see this as a problem.

Dave K.

>

> > Fascinating! So, what then of good ol' DHT? This discussion has

> revealed the possibility (?) that DIM, and possibly even zinc, have

an

> adverse effect on DHT. The description of the 6-OXO mechanism

disabling

> aromatase makes sense for lowering E2. Does anyone know though

whether

> 6-OXO might also attack the 5-alpha reductase enzyme in a similar

> fashion?

>

> I dunno. That why I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has

> tried it. Heck, I might even try it myself!

>

> I should also note that DIM/Indolplex should theoretically work

that way

> too for men NOT on TRT (i.e. raise T), but I have not heard of

anyone

> claiming this. But then, if they're not on T they probably can't

get a

> doctor's script for blood tests either. :-(

[Guest guest]

> -

>

> I'm planning on trying DIM after my next doctor's appointment later

> this month. I'm not on any TRT at all, just Arimidex. I'm going to

> try to get tested every month or so to see what effect it has on T/E2

> ratio. My endo has been great so far so I don't see this as a problem.

>

> Dave K.

Great! What are you going to get tested? I would suggest T (total &

free), E2 and DHT.

[Guest guest]

-

My doctor will test for T, Free T, E2. I will mention DHT to him.

I'm getting tested on 10/21, a week before my appointment to see

what effect Arimidex has had after one month of treatment. I'm

expecting my E2 to be significantly lower than the 49.3 I tested at

before treatment. I'm going to suggest trying DIM to maintain the E2

levels, and I'm hoping my libido/sensitivity problems will improve

with this treatment as opposed to Arimidex.

My suspicion is that I obtained high E2 levels through long term use

of the anti-depressant Celexa. I think it caused problems with my

liver's metabolism. I've read several studies/articles on this as

well. Which is why I think DIM might be better because hopefully it

will help my liver to get rid of excess estrogens quicker. I need to

attack the source of the problem rather than doing it in a

roundabout way which is what I think Arimidex is doing.

Anyway, once I get my results in a few weeks I'm sure I'll need help

figuring out the dosing for DIM. Thanks

Dave K.

>

> > -

> >

> > I'm planning on trying DIM after my next doctor's appointment

later

> > this month. I'm not on any TRT at all, just Arimidex. I'm going

to

> > try to get tested every month or so to see what effect it has on

T/E2

> > ratio. My endo has been great so far so I don't see this as a

problem.

> >

> > Dave K.

>

> Great! What are you going to get tested? I would suggest T

(total &

> free), E2 and DHT.

[Guest guest]

I'd be interested in knowing if whether Erogpham 6-OXO and Arimidex

lower DHT as well as E2.

I would like my DHT to be higher, but would like to lower my E2 (59

range 10-51)

If anyone has information on this, it would be appreciated.

Thanks!!!

>

> > Fascinating! So, what then of good ol' DHT? This discussion has

> revealed the possibility (?) that DIM, and possibly even zinc, have

an

> adverse effect on DHT. The description of the 6-OXO mechanism

disabling

> aromatase makes sense for lowering E2. Does anyone know though

whether

> 6-OXO might also attack the 5-alpha reductase enzyme in a similar

> fashion?

>

> I dunno. That why I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has

> tried it. Heck, I might even try it myself!

>

> I should also note that DIM/Indolplex should theoretically work

that way

> too for men NOT on TRT (i.e. raise T), but I have not heard of

anyone

> claiming this. But then, if they're not on T they probably can't

get a

> doctor's script for blood tests either. :-(

[Guest guest]

I've purchased it at GNC. The Vitamin Shoppe also carries it. It's hit and

miss, though, as to when it's in stock.

> Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO

>

>

> Fascinating! So, what then of good ol' DHT? This discussion

> has revealed the possibility (?) that DIM, and possibly even

> zinc, have an adverse effect on DHT. The description of the

> 6-OXO mechanism disabling aromatase makes sense for lowering

> E2. Does anyone know though whether 6-OXO might also attack

> the 5-alpha reductase enzyme in a similar fashion? Also,

> someone mentioned being able to buy 6-OXO at GNC, but my

> visit yesterday came up empty and they didn't seem to know about it.

>

> Thanks.../Dale

> Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO

>

>

>

> > Couldn't this be dangerous?

> > After all, we need estrogen, and if you

> > lose some of the aromatase enzyme

> > naturally (say, though lowering body

> > fat) in addition to that " killed " by this,

> > couldn't you risk not being

> > able to produce enough estrogen?

>

> Good question.

>

> For men who are NOT on TRT, according to the manufacturer

> 6-OXO has an

> excellent mechanism for avoiding low E2. When the h/p axis

> see less E2,

> it responds by making more T. As a result, the studies cited by the

> manufacturer say that E2 stays about the same, but T goes up!

>

> For men on standard TRT (shots, gels, patches, etc.), 6-OXO would

> probably have the same risk of low E2 as Arimidex or DIM.

>

> For men on HCG, I suspect that the answer would be

> somewhere in between

> the two above depending upon the responsiveness of one's h/p axis.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I tried a bottle, posted here twice about it, even in this thread...you all

have short memories.

Okay, Z, go ahead and shoot back that one bottle without blood tests

isn't a good test and you want hard facts and blah blah blah...

My one bottle conclusions, Z's anticipated protestations aside, is

that the stuff has some effect (I noticed slightly harder erections, a bit

more libido), which may have been a placebo-effect, but bottom line is that

the stuff is far too expensive at around $100 per month at recommended

dosages to gamble on a " supplement " with little published data on its

efficacy. But I'm cheap. Actually, if I could get T up with the stuff, the

savings on Androgel would offset the expense of this stuff. Price is

relative I guess, and I'm not quite yet willing to be part of a clinical

trial for the stuff where I am footing the bill on the supplement, and the

lab work to see if has the desired affect.

> Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO

>

>

>

> > Fascinating! So, what then of good ol' DHT? This discussion has

> revealed the possibility (?) that DIM, and possibly even

> zinc, have an adverse effect on DHT. The description of the

> 6-OXO mechanism disabling aromatase makes sense for lowering

> E2. Does anyone know though whether 6-OXO might also attack

> the 5-alpha reductase enzyme in a similar fashion?

>

> I dunno. That why I'd be interested in hearing from someone

> who has tried it. Heck, I might even try it myself!

>

> I should also note that DIM/Indolplex should theoretically

> work that way too for men NOT on TRT (i.e. raise T), but I

> have not heard of anyone claiming this. But then, if they're

> not on T they probably can't get a doctor's script for blood

> tests either. :-(

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

How much did it you pay for it. At this link it is $28.25.

http://store./vitanet/6ox60caper.html

Phil

Dave <daultman@...> wrote:

I've purchased it at GNC. The Vitamin Shoppe also carries it. It's hit and

miss, though, as to when it's in stock.

> Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO

>

>

> Fascinating! So, what then of good ol' DHT? This discussion

> has revealed the possibility (?) that DIM, and possibly even

> zinc, have an adverse effect on DHT. The description of the

> 6-OXO mechanism disabling aromatase makes sense for lowering

> E2. Does anyone know though whether 6-OXO might also attack

> the 5-alpha reductase enzyme in a similar fashion? Also,

> someone mentioned being able to buy 6-OXO at GNC, but my

> visit yesterday came up empty and they didn't seem to know about it.

>

> Thanks.../Dale

> Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO

>

>

>

> > Couldn't this be dangerous?

> > After all, we need estrogen, and if you

> > lose some of the aromatase enzyme

> > naturally (say, though lowering body

> > fat) in addition to that " killed " by this,

> > couldn't you risk not being

> > able to produce enough estrogen?

>

> Good question.

>

> For men who are NOT on TRT, according to the manufacturer

> 6-OXO has an

> excellent mechanism for avoiding low E2. When the h/p axis

> see less E2,

> it responds by making more T. As a result, the studies cited by the

> manufacturer say that E2 stays about the same, but T goes up!

>

> For men on standard TRT (shots, gels, patches, etc.), 6-OXO would

> probably have the same risk of low E2 as Arimidex or DIM.

>

> For men on HCG, I suspect that the answer would be

> somewhere in between

> the two above depending upon the responsiveness of one's h/p axis.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I tried a bottle...

Interesting.

> Okay, Z, go ahead and shoot back

> that one bottle without blood tests

> isn't a good test and you want hard facts...

Hey, anecdotal evidence is better that no evidence at all!

> ...the stuff has some effect (I noticed

> slightly harder erections, a bit

> more libido), which may have been

> a placebo-effect, but bottom line is that

> the stuff is far too expensive at around

> $100 per month at recommended dosages...

You need to think outside the box a little. Here are some examples:

- Some people (like me) react to very low dosages of things,

- What about taking say 1 or 2 pills a day and supplementing it with

another E2 management tool (Indolplex, Arimidex, etc.)

- What if you're a millionaire and money's not tight? Wouldn't you pay

$1,000 a year if you thought a supplement was the superior solution?

> to gamble on a " supplement "

> with little published data on its efficacy.

What's the gamble? If you do before and after blood tests (which I do

anyway), you'll know for sure. No gamble involved except for the same

risk you take with any drug or supplement

> Price is relative I guess..

Exactly. What price do you put on your health? One's answer depends on

a lot of different factors including one's circumstances.

> and I'm not quite yet willing to be part of a clinical

> trial for the stuff where I am footing

> the bill on the supplement, and the

> lab work to see if has the desired affect.

OK. But some people would.

[Guest guest]

$35 for the bottle.

> Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO

> >

> >

> > Fascinating! So, what then of good ol' DHT? This discussion has

> > revealed the possibility (?) that DIM, and possibly even

> zinc, have an

> > adverse effect on DHT. The description of the 6-OXO mechanism

> > disabling aromatase makes sense for lowering E2. Does anyone know

> > though whether 6-OXO might also attack the 5-alpha

> reductase enzyme in

> > a similar fashion? Also, someone mentioned being able to

> buy 6-OXO at

> > GNC, but my visit yesterday came up empty and they didn't

> seem to know

> > about it.

> >

> > Thanks.../Dale

> > Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO

> >

> >

> >

> > > Couldn't this be dangerous?

> > > After all, we need estrogen, and if you

> > > lose some of the aromatase enzyme

> > > naturally (say, though lowering body

> > > fat) in addition to that " killed " by this,

> > > couldn't you risk not being

> > > able to produce enough estrogen?

> >

> > Good question.

> >

> > For men who are NOT on TRT, according to the manufacturer

> 6-OXO has

> > an

> > excellent mechanism for avoiding low E2. When the h/p

> axis see less

> > E2,

> > it responds by making more T. As a result, the studies

> cited by the

> > manufacturer say that E2 stays about the same, but T goes up!

> >

> > For men on standard TRT (shots, gels, patches, etc.), 6-OXO would

> > probably have the same risk of low E2 as Arimidex or DIM.

> >

> > For men on HCG, I suspect that the answer would be somewhere in

> > between

> > the two above depending upon the responsiveness of one's h/p axis.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

, you're right. Like I suggested at the end of the message, it becomes

more cost effective if it actually boosts T to the point of not needing

Androgel.

I'm actually curious how fast any of this stuff works. I see the endo again

in a week to get the resultss of my labs earlier this week. If I had a clue

about what her treatment plan is going to be, I'd be willing to take another

bottle of the stuff and run an E2 test just to see the results; but I don't

want to skew anything she might have in mind for next week (ie., and HCG

stim test).

Take care.

> Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO

>

>

>

> > I tried a bottle...

>

> Interesting.

>

> > Okay, Z, go ahead and shoot back that one bottle

> without blood

> > tests isn't a good test and you want hard facts...

>

> Hey, anecdotal evidence is better that no evidence at all!

>

> > ...the stuff has some effect (I noticed slightly harder

> erections, a

> > bit more libido), which may have been a placebo-effect, but bottom

> > line is that the stuff is far too expensive at around $100

> per month

> > at recommended dosages...

>

> You need to think outside the box a little. Here are some examples:

>

> - Some people (like me) react to very low dosages of things,

> - What about taking say 1 or 2 pills a day and supplementing

> it with another E2 management tool (Indolplex, Arimidex, etc.)

> - What if you're a millionaire and money's not tight?

> Wouldn't you pay $1,000 a year if you thought a supplement

> was the superior solution?

>

> > to gamble on a " supplement "

> > with little published data on its efficacy.

>

> What's the gamble? If you do before and after blood tests

> (which I do anyway), you'll know for sure. No gamble

> involved except for the same risk you take with any drug or supplement

>

> > Price is relative I guess..

>

> Exactly. What price do you put on your health? One's answer

> depends on a lot of different factors including one's circumstances.

>

> > and I'm not quite yet willing to be part of a clinical

> trial for the

> > stuff where I am footing the bill on the supplement, and

> the lab work

> > to see if has the desired affect.

>

> OK. But some people would.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Old topic again, but after looking through Ergopharm's literature on 6-OXO, I

have decided to give it a try. Unless others can suggest otherwise, I will also

stop the DIM (have been using DIM Plus...yea, I know). I recently dropped my

DIM dosage to 1 capsule/day, from 4, after reading some info that suggested that

at high dosages it was also an 5AR inhibitor. I did not notice any E2 symptom

increases with 1 capsule. I'd like to see if 6-OXO can lower E2, and/or raise

DHT, on its own as they claim (I'm inherently cynical of supplement claims until

proven otherwise). If you want, I'll post my findings once I have a sense of

what effect(s) it does have.

Dale

Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO

> Fascinating! So, what then of good ol' DHT? This discussion has

revealed the possibility (?) that DIM, and possibly even zinc, have an

adverse effect on DHT. The description of the 6-OXO mechanism disabling

aromatase makes sense for lowering E2. Does anyone know though whether

6-OXO might also attack the 5-alpha reductase enzyme in a similar

fashion?

I dunno. That why I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has

tried it. Heck, I might even try it myself!

I should also note that DIM/Indolplex should theoretically work that way

too for men NOT on TRT (i.e. raise T), but I have not heard of anyone

claiming this. But then, if they're not on T they probably can't get a

doctor's script for blood tests either. :-(

[Guest guest]

Hi Dale,

Where did you get the information that 6-OXO raises DHT?

I would be interested in it.

Thanks!!!

> Old topic again, but after looking through Ergopharm's literature

on 6-OXO, I have decided to give it a try. Unless others can suggest

otherwise, I will also stop the DIM (have been using DIM Plus...yea,

I know). I recently dropped my DIM dosage to 1 capsule/day, from 4,

after reading some info that suggested that at high dosages it was

also an 5AR inhibitor. I did not notice any E2 symptom increases

with 1 capsule. I'd like to see if 6-OXO can lower E2, and/or raise

DHT, on its own as they claim (I'm inherently cynical of supplement

claims until proven otherwise). If you want, I'll post my findings

once I have a sense of what effect(s) it does have.

>

> Dale

> Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO

>

>

>

> > Fascinating! So, what then of good ol' DHT? This discussion

has

> revealed the possibility (?) that DIM, and possibly even zinc,

have an

> adverse effect on DHT. The description of the 6-OXO mechanism

disabling

> aromatase makes sense for lowering E2. Does anyone know though

whether

> 6-OXO might also attack the 5-alpha reductase enzyme in a similar

> fashion?

>

> I dunno. That why I'd be interested in hearing from someone who

has

> tried it. Heck, I might even try it myself!

>

> I should also note that DIM/Indolplex should theoretically work

that way

> too for men NOT on TRT (i.e. raise T), but I have not heard of

anyone

> claiming this. But then, if they're not on T they probably can't

get a

> doctor's script for blood tests either. :-(

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I got that after cruising through the Avant Labs forum

(http://forum.avantlabs.com), as advised by member jasonangus2 about a month

ago. Essentially what they are suggesting is that as T levels increase, there

is a parallel rise in DHT since the 6-OXO (supposedly) reduces the activity of

the aromatase enzyme, allowing more T to convert to DHT. Snake oil? Yea,

maybe.

Cheers.../Dale

Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO

>

>

>

> > Fascinating! So, what then of good ol' DHT? This discussion

has

> revealed the possibility (?) that DIM, and possibly even zinc,

have an

> adverse effect on DHT. The description of the 6-OXO mechanism

disabling

> aromatase makes sense for lowering E2. Does anyone know though

whether

> 6-OXO might also attack the 5-alpha reductase enzyme in a similar

> fashion?

>

> I dunno. That why I'd be interested in hearing from someone who

has

> tried it. Heck, I might even try it myself!

>

> I should also note that DIM/Indolplex should theoretically work

that way

> too for men NOT on TRT (i.e. raise T), but I have not heard of

anyone

> claiming this. But then, if they're not on T they probably can't

get a

> doctor's script for blood tests either. :-(

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I *imagined* (no blood tests to back up the claim) that I felt harder

erections and other benefits when I tried a bottle of 6 OXO last August. I

also decided that it was too expensive to use long term.

> Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO

>

>

> Old topic again, but after looking through Ergopharm's

> literature on 6-OXO, I have decided to give it a try. Unless

> others can suggest otherwise, I will also stop the DIM (have

> been using DIM Plus...yea, I know). I recently dropped my

> DIM dosage to 1 capsule/day, from 4, after reading some info

> that suggested that at high dosages it was also an 5AR

> inhibitor. I did not notice any E2 symptom increases with 1

> capsule. I'd like to see if 6-OXO can lower E2, and/or raise

> DHT, on its own as they claim (I'm inherently cynical of

> supplement claims until proven otherwise). If you want, I'll

> post my findings once I have a sense of what effect(s) it does have.

>

> Dale

> Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO

>

>

>

> > Fascinating! So, what then of good ol' DHT? This discussion has

> revealed the possibility (?) that DIM, and possibly even

> zinc, have an

> adverse effect on DHT. The description of the 6-OXO

> mechanism disabling

> aromatase makes sense for lowering E2. Does anyone know

> though whether

> 6-OXO might also attack the 5-alpha reductase enzyme in a similar

> fashion?

>

> I dunno. That why I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has

> tried it. Heck, I might even try it myself!

>

> I should also note that DIM/Indolplex should theoretically

> work that way

> too for men NOT on TRT (i.e. raise T), but I have not heard

> of anyone

> claiming this. But then, if they're not on T they probably

> can't get a

> doctor's script for blood tests either. :-(

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dave,

What dosages were you using?

Thanks!!!

> I *imagined* (no blood tests to back up the claim) that I felt

harder

> erections and other benefits when I tried a bottle of 6 OXO last

August. I

> also decided that it was too expensive to use long term.

>

> > Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO

> >

> >

> > Old topic again, but after looking through Ergopharm's

> > literature on 6-OXO, I have decided to give it a try. Unless

> > others can suggest otherwise, I will also stop the DIM (have

> > been using DIM Plus...yea, I know). I recently dropped my

> > DIM dosage to 1 capsule/day, from 4, after reading some info

> > that suggested that at high dosages it was also an 5AR

> > inhibitor. I did not notice any E2 symptom increases with 1

> > capsule. I'd like to see if 6-OXO can lower E2, and/or raise

> > DHT, on its own as they claim (I'm inherently cynical of

> > supplement claims until proven otherwise). If you want, I'll

> > post my findings once I have a sense of what effect(s) it does

have.

> >

> > Dale

> > Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO

> >

> >

> >

> > > Fascinating! So, what then of good ol' DHT? This discussion

has

> > revealed the possibility (?) that DIM, and possibly even

> > zinc, have an

> > adverse effect on DHT. The description of the 6-OXO

> > mechanism disabling

> > aromatase makes sense for lowering E2. Does anyone know

> > though whether

> > 6-OXO might also attack the 5-alpha reductase enzyme in a

similar

> > fashion?

> >

> > I dunno. That why I'd be interested in hearing from someone

who has

> > tried it. Heck, I might even try it myself!

> >

> > I should also note that DIM/Indolplex should theoretically

> > work that way

> > too for men NOT on TRT (i.e. raise T), but I have not heard

> > of anyone

> > claiming this. But then, if they're not on T they probably

> > can't get a

> > doctor's script for blood tests either. :-(

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Whatever was on the bottle...I think it was 6 capsules per day. Here's a

quote from a message I posted a few months ago about it...the whole thread

was titles " E2 Economics " and was rather lengthy.

" Anyways, desperate to get this E2 down, I bought a bottle of 6-OXO

(Ergopharm), which is supposed to lower E2 by permanently bonding to

aromatase enzymes. It may be psychological, but I think it has some effect,

erections have been slightly firmer and easier to maintain the last few

days.

Here's the downside, though, economics:

1 bottle of the stuff (60 capsules), costs $35. Daily dose is 3 to 6

capsules per day depending on if you're body builder coming off a

Testosterone cycle, or just someone trying to increase T without steroids.

So, figure 3 caps per day, one bottle is a 20 day supply, but I'm on TRT, so

6 is probably more likely. Either way, I'm looking at $50 to $100 per month

to use this stuff, if it even really works.

Arimidex, on the other hand, without insurance, can be bought in Mexico

without a prescription, or from Dr. , for about $9 per 1gm pill. It

seems the typical dose peopel on Arimidex in this group are taking is

somewhere around 0.5g every 5 to 10 days. Depending on what actually works

for me, I can get something that is sure to work, much more effective, and

at a cost of somewhere between $15 and $30 per month. "

> Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO

> > >

> > >

> > > Old topic again, but after looking through Ergopharm's

> literature on

> > > 6-OXO, I have decided to give it a try. Unless others

> can suggest

> > > otherwise, I will also stop the DIM (have been using DIM

> Plus...yea,

> > > I know). I recently dropped my DIM dosage to 1

> capsule/day, from 4,

> > > after reading some info that suggested that at high

> dosages it was

> > > also an 5AR inhibitor. I did not notice any E2 symptom increases

> > > with 1 capsule. I'd like to see if 6-OXO can lower E2,

> and/or raise

> > > DHT, on its own as they claim (I'm inherently cynical of

> supplement

> > > claims until proven otherwise). If you want, I'll post

> my findings

> > > once I have a sense of what effect(s) it does

> have.

> > >

> > > Dale

> > > Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > Fascinating! So, what then of good ol' DHT? This discussion

> has

> > > revealed the possibility (?) that DIM, and possibly even zinc,

> > > have an

> > > adverse effect on DHT. The description of the 6-OXO mechanism

> > > disabling

> > > aromatase makes sense for lowering E2. Does anyone know though

> > > whether

> > > 6-OXO might also attack the 5-alpha reductase enzyme in a

> similar

> > > fashion?

> > >

> > > I dunno. That why I'd be interested in hearing from someone

> who has

> > > tried it. Heck, I might even try it myself!

> > >

> > > I should also note that DIM/Indolplex should theoretically work

> > > that way

> > > too for men NOT on TRT (i.e. raise T), but I have not heard of

> > > anyone

> > > claiming this. But then, if they're not on T they

> probably can't

> > > get a

> > > doctor's script for blood tests either. :-(

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >