Guest guest Posted October 2, 2004 Report Share Posted October 2, 2004 > What do you think of this product? Looks impressive. > > http://www.ergopharm.net/?productID=1 ---------------------------------------------- I ordered a couple of bottles about a year ago and took them as per directions. I could tell no change in anything, waste of money. norton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2004 Report Share Posted October 2, 2004 Seems overhyped to me. > What do you think of this product? Looks impressive. > > http://www.ergopharm.net/?productID=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2004 Report Share Posted October 2, 2004 The guy who makes the stuff ( Arnold) has a pretty religious group of followers in the bodybuilding groups - they rave about his other big product (1-Testosterone), so I tried a bottle of 6-OXO. I noticed perhaps a very small effect, but it may very well have been a placebo effect. I'd stay away from the stuff just because of the price. I posted a thread in this forum entitled " E2 Economics " on 8/21/04 that I think you should read before laying out your cash for the stuff. Here's a direct link to that thread: /interrupt?st=2 & m=1 & done=% 2Fgroup%2F %2Fmessage%2F16888 To summarize, though, you'll spend $50 to $100 per month for 6-OXO (no chance of insurance coverage), which may or may not work, or you can spend $15 to $30 per month (possibly covered by insurance) for Arimidex from Dr. or from a no-prescription Mexican pharmacy and get something that will definitely work. Seems like a no-brainer to me. > Ergopharm 6-OXO > > > What do you think of this product? Looks impressive. > > http://www.ergopharm.net/?productID=1 > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2004 Report Share Posted October 2, 2004 I am not sure but it could be the same thing as DIM how much does it cost. I am thinking about trying this instad of Arimidex that I am now using. http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html This one is $29.90. for 60 tablets you can cut into parts and take like Dave does. /files/%20Z%27s%20Primer%\ 20Articles/ Phil invest99_2000 <no_reply > wrote: What do you think of this product? Looks impressive. http://www.ergopharm.net/?productID=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2004 Report Share Posted October 2, 2004 No 6-OXO is not DIM, in fact, it's ads specifically state that DIM doesn't work! > Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO > > > I am not sure but it could be the same thing as DIM how much > does it cost. I am thinking about trying this instad of > Arimidex that I am now using. > http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html > This one is $29.90. for 60 tablets you can cut into parts and > take like Dave does. > /files/ > %20Z%27s%20Primer%20Articles/ > Phil > > invest99_2000 <no_reply > wrote: > What do you think of this product? Looks impressive. > > http://www.ergopharm.net/?productID=1 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2004 Report Share Posted October 2, 2004 > No 6-OXO is not DIM, in fact, it's ads > specifically state that DIM doesn't work! Well, then, its ads are wrong! Indolplex (a patented form of DIM that greatly improves its bioavailability) does work for some men (including me) but not for others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2004 Report Share Posted October 2, 2004 > To summarize, though, you'll spend $50 > to $100 per month for 6-OXO (no > chance of insurance coverage), which > may or may not work, or you can spend > $15 to $30 per month (possibly covered > by insurance) for Arimidex from Dr. > or from a no-prescription Mexican > pharmacy and get something that will > definitely work. > > Seems like a no-brainer to me. Not quite. Arimidex doesn't " work " in the sense that it doesn't yield the improvements in lean body mass, fatigue, libido, etc. that one would expect from the reductions in E2 that it produces. My question is - does 6-OXO produce better results? Lastly, please note that I spend about $5/month since a $30 bottle of Indolplex lasts me about 6 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2004 Report Share Posted October 2, 2004 Dave what was the post number I can't get there it keeps telling me I am not excepting cookies. Yey I am. Phil Dave <daultman@...> wrote: The guy who makes the stuff ( Arnold) has a pretty religious group of followers in the bodybuilding groups - they rave about his other big product (1-Testosterone), so I tried a bottle of 6-OXO. I noticed perhaps a very small effect, but it may very well have been a placebo effect. I'd stay away from the stuff just because of the price. I posted a thread in this forum entitled " E2 Economics " on 8/21/04 that I think you should read before laying out your cash for the stuff. Here's a direct link to that thread: /interrupt?st=2 & m=1 & done=% 2Fgroup%2F %2Fmessage%2F16888 To summarize, though, you'll spend $50 to $100 per month for 6-OXO (no chance of insurance coverage), which may or may not work, or you can spend $15 to $30 per month (possibly covered by insurance) for Arimidex from Dr. or from a no-prescription Mexican pharmacy and get something that will definitely work. Seems like a no-brainer to me. > Ergopharm 6-OXO > > > What do you think of this product? Looks impressive. > > http://www.ergopharm.net/?productID=1 > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2004 Report Share Posted October 2, 2004 You know Z has been using it for a long time and it works for him. So who do we beleve. Phil Dave <daultman@...> wrote: No 6-OXO is not DIM, in fact, it's ads specifically state that DIM doesn't work! > Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO > > > I am not sure but it could be the same thing as DIM how much > does it cost. I am thinking about trying this instad of > Arimidex that I am now using. > http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html > This one is $29.90. for 60 tablets you can cut into parts and > take like Dave does. > /files/ > %20Z%27s%20Primer%20Articles/ > Phil > > invest99_2000 <no_reply > wrote: > What do you think of this product? Looks impressive. > > http://www.ergopharm.net/?productID=1 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2004 Report Share Posted October 2, 2004 Well, Z isn't trying to sell you something, but P Arnold usually has studies to back his claims. We're all different, just like shots vs cream vs gel, maybe DIM works for some and not for others. > Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO > > > > > > I am not sure but it could be the same thing as DIM how > much does it > > cost. I am thinking about trying this instad of Arimidex that I am > > now using. > > http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html > > This one is $29.90. for 60 tablets you can cut into parts and take > > like Dave does. > > /files/ > > %20Z%27s%20Primer%20Articles/ > > Phil > > > > invest99_2000 <no_reply > wrote: > > What do you think of this product? Looks impressive. > > > > http://www.ergopharm.net/?productID=1 > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2004 Report Share Posted October 2, 2004 Msg 16888 > Ergopharm 6-OXO > > > > > > What do you think of this product? Looks impressive. > > > > http://www.ergopharm.net/?productID=1 > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2004 Report Share Posted October 2, 2004 Thanks Dave so now that I reread the cost what are you doing now to keep you E2 under contorl. Phil Dave <daultman@...> wrote: Msg 16888 > Ergopharm 6-OXO > > > > > > What do you think of this product? Looks impressive. > > > > http://www.ergopharm.net/?productID=1 > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2004 Report Share Posted October 2, 2004 Too many " Dave's " and too many posts to keep track of folks! I'm the Dave who who had T of 1500 on 5g of Androgel after 5 months, but had some serious E2 symptoms and skyhigh E and E2 blood labs. I got sent to an Endo who told me to stop all treatment for everything except my thyroid for 6 weeks, and then to re-test all measurements (my original PCP didn't test anything before putting me on Androgel). I'm not even taking zinc other than what little bit is in my multi vitamin. I'm on the 5th week of no treatment and will blood test this Tuesday. I have symptoms of low T: extremely low libido, less firm erections (though no ED), no nocturnal erections or morning wood that I know of, some general run-downness. I don't have the symptoms of high E2 I had that made me seek the Endo in the first place: my nipples aren't super sensitive (which I actually miss, felt damn good having them rubbed), and no weepiness like I was having. I'll post blood results when they come in. > Ergopharm 6-OXO > > > > > > > > > What do you think of this product? Looks impressive. > > > > > > http://www.ergopharm.net/?productID=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2004 Report Share Posted October 2, 2004 Yep it is a good name I sure hope your Dr. finds something. All I ever got from doing that was sicker. Phil Dave <daultman@...> wrote: Too many " Dave's " and too many posts to keep track of folks! I'm the Dave who who had T of 1500 on 5g of Androgel after 5 months, but had some serious E2 symptoms and skyhigh E and E2 blood labs. I got sent to an Endo who told me to stop all treatment for everything except my thyroid for 6 weeks, and then to re-test all measurements (my original PCP didn't test anything before putting me on Androgel). I'm not even taking zinc other than what little bit is in my multi vitamin. I'm on the 5th week of no treatment and will blood test this Tuesday. I have symptoms of low T: extremely low libido, less firm erections (though no ED), no nocturnal erections or morning wood that I know of, some general run-downness. I don't have the symptoms of high E2 I had that made me seek the Endo in the first place: my nipples aren't super sensitive (which I actually miss, felt damn good having them rubbed), and no weepiness like I was having. I'll post blood results when they come in. > Ergopharm 6-OXO > > > > > > > > > What do you think of this product? Looks impressive. > > > > > > http://www.ergopharm.net/?productID=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2004 Report Share Posted October 3, 2004 > > Seems like a no-brainer to me. > > Not quite. > > Arimidex doesn't " work " in the sense that it doesn't yield > the improvements in lean body mass, fatigue, libido, etc. > that one would expect from the reductions in E2 that it > produces. My question is - does 6-OXO produce better results? > > Lastly, please note that I spend about $5/month since a $30 > bottle of Indolplex lasts me about 6 months. DIM didn't work for me, but I hadn't tried Indoleplex, and I maybe didn't even give DIM a long enough trial. I doubt 6-OXO produces better results at the advertised/labelled doses, it's pretty common for these pro-hormones and other supplements to label at fairly useless doses just to avoid legal action, isn't it. At the labelled dose, the stuff is pretty darn expensive, at theraputic doses I'd guess the price would be prohibitive. A google search for 6-OXO in the mfw group would probably yield better information. 6-OXO's target audience is really weightlifters coming off a T cycle, if that makes a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2004 Report Share Posted October 3, 2004 I have a request: Could people please be careful about using abbreviations unless they first define them in their post? For example: " DIM " What, exactly, is 'DIM'? Once you define it then you can use it with impunity! :-) thanks, J In a message dated 10/2/04 12:50:54 PM, davidzxxx2004@... writes: > > No 6-OXO is not DIM, in fact, it's ads > > specifically state that DIM doesn't work! > > Well, then, its ads are wrong! > > Indolplex (a patented form of DIM that greatly improves its > bioavailability) does work for some men (including me) but not for > others. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2004 Report Share Posted October 3, 2004 " Testy " ?? Who got " testy " ? My " use-with-impunity " was a bit of a light-hearted comment. You know, a " joke " . ANYTHING BUT " testy " . So sorry it was interpreted that way. J In a message dated 10/3/04 8:32:30 AM, davidzxxx2004@... writes: > > Once you define it then you can use it with impunity! > > Exactly. The reason I wrote these primer articles was to elevate the > discussion. If we're constantly answering questions about the basics, > then we're not discussing the good stuff. It's that simple. > > So, if you don't understand something, just ask. There are lots of > helpful folks here to answer. No need to get testy about it. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2004 Report Share Posted October 3, 2004 > DIM didn't work for me, but I hadn't tried Indoleplex... DIM alone (i.e, NOT manufactured under BioResponse's patent) doesn't work. Period. It gets digested before it get a chance to work. That's why so many manufacturer's use Zelig's (BioResponse's) patent. He's figured out a way to make DIM bioavailable. > ...and I maybe didn't even give DIM a long enough trial. If you didn't use the right product, it wouldn't matter how long you took it. It still wouldn't work. > I doubt 6-OXO produces better results > at the advertised/labelled doses, it's > pretty common for these pro-hormones > and other supplements to label at > fairly useless doses just to avoid legal > action, isn't it. At the labelled > dose, the stuff is pretty darn expensive, > at theraputic doses I'd guess the > price would be prohibitive. I prefer to go on facts, rather than vague impressions. Also, I have a great respect for the developer's ( Arnold's) knowledge. > A google search for 6-OXO in the mfw group > would probably yield better information. The relatively small amount of anecdotal evidence I read about 6-OXO on the net a while back is generally positive, but not conclusive. > 6-OXO's target audience is really weightlifters > coming off a T cycle, if that makes a difference. I don't think so. Except, you need to read the stories in context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2004 Report Share Posted October 3, 2004 > What, exactly, is 'DIM'? Read my primer article 5 of 8 in the files section (a portion of which is reproduced below). > Once you define it then you can use it with impunity! Exactly. The reason I wrote these primer articles was to elevate the discussion. If we're constantly answering questions about the basics, then we're not discussing the good stuff. It's that simple. So, if you don't understand something, just ask. There are lots of helpful folks here to answer. No need to get testy about it. ******************************************** Diindolylmethane (DIM) is a naturally occurring substance found primarily in cruciferous vegetables (e.g., cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, etc.) that helps the liver digest/metabolize Estradiol into more benign/healthy estrogens. DIM is also not very bioavailable when taken orally; however, Indolplex (a.k.a., Di-indolin) is a proprietary formulation that increases DIM's oral bioavailability. For more information about DIM see www.dimfaq.com. This website was written by Dr. Zeligs of BioResponse who owns the patent on the proprietary DIM formulation. I experienced a tremendous surge in erectile function during the first 2 or 3 months on a very low dosage of Indoplex (25 to 50 mg/day). Unlike the fade that occurred after 2 or 3 weeks on Chrysin gel, the effect of Indoplex remains at about 80% of the surge effect level at about 6 months after starting. The recommended dosage for Indolplex is about 300 mg/day. This dosage is way too much for me, but I'm highly responsive to it. I would suggest starting at 100 mg/day at dinner for 2 or 3 weeks and see how it goes. Depending upon your response, adjust your dosage from there. I prefer the tablets to the capsules because they break easily in half or smaller quantities so I can adjust my dosage more precisely. This is important because the window of optimal dosage is small. You can buy Indolplex/DIM over the Internet. If you do a web search on " diindolylmethane " or " Indolplex " you'll find a number of brands of DIM in tablets and capsules. Many of these websites are not consistent as to whether the product is in tablets or capsules. You might want to email the website to confirm before your buy. If you want capsules, you can but them directly from BioResponse by calling 303-447-3841. (3) Arimidex is a prescription drug that is very effective in lowering blood levels of E by inhibiting the action of the aromatase enzyme. While some men report clinical benefits from Arimidex, the results overall do not match what one would expect from this treatment. The reason for this discrepancy is unknown. Both Chrysin and DIM are relatively benign supplements (no prescription required) with no side effects (unless you take very large amounts). In contrast, Arimidex is a prescription drug with a long list of side effects. I suspect that elevated E in men results more from insufficient metabolization rather than excess aromatization. For a number of reasons/causes the P450 system in the liver declines in function as men age. Therefore, we probably don't make more E as we get older; rather we don't metabolize it as well as we did when we were younger. That's why I think DIM is a much superior estrogen management tool to Arimidex. In addition to being a food supplement rather than a drug, it supports a deficient system in our bodies to do what it was designed to do rather than blocking a well functioning system from doing what it was meant to do. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2004 Report Share Posted October 3, 2004 > > 6-OXO's target audience is really weightlifters coming off > a T cycle, > > if that makes a difference. > > I don't think so. Except, you need to read the stories in context. Direct from Ergopharm's (Pat Arnold's company) website regarding 6-OXO: " WHO: Any athlete interested in achieving a hard, lean physique. For those individuals who are coming off a prohormone/pro-steroid cycle, 6-OXO is the perfect product to restore balance to the hormonal environment. " PA markets prohormones and posts frequently in the mfw usenet. When read in context, it's clear that he's marketing this stuff as part of a (pro)-hormone cycling product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2004 Report Share Posted October 3, 2004 > > > 6-OXO's target audience is really weightlifters > > > coming off a T cycle, if that makes a difference. > > > > I don't think so. Except, you need to read the stories in context. > > Direct from Ergopharm's (Pat Arnold's company) website regarding 6-OXO: > > " WHO: Any athlete interested in achieving a hard, lean physique. For those > individuals who are coming off a prohormone/pro-steroid cycle, 6-OXO is the > perfect product to restore balance to the hormonal environment. " > > PA markets prohormones and posts frequently in the mfw usenet. When read in > context, it's clear that he's marketing this stuff as part of a > (pro)-hormone cycling product. Correct. But that doesn't mean that it won't work, or is inappropriate, for men on TRT. In fact, it is very common for a drug to be used by doctors for purposes other than the manufacturer's stated purpose. A good example of this is Arimidex which is manufactured for women, but some doctors prescribe it for men, too. If 6-OXO reduces E2 for bodybuilders (men who deliberately overdose on T or steroids, etc.), then I don't see why it wouldn't work for men on TRT. Further, as I've stated many times, Arimidex doesn't really " work " in the sense that it doesn't yield the benefits that are expected from reduced E2, namely - lean body mass, more energy, libido, etc. If 6-OXO yields these benefits (if bodybuilders experience success with it, then one would expect that it does), then 6-OXO is an attractive option if DIM/Indolplex doesn't work for you and you can afford the high cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2004 Report Share Posted October 3, 2004 > I doubt 6-OXO produces better results > at the advertised/labelled doses... The only way to know is to try it and get before and after blood tests to validate the results. > it's pretty common for these pro-hormones > and other supplements to label at fairly > useless doses just to avoid legal action, isn't it. Are you aware that I get extremely good results from Indolplex using 15% of the recommended daily dosage? See my primer article 7 of 8 entitled " Adjusting DIM Dosage " in the files section of this group for details. I don't think you can generalize about dosages. Everyone's different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2004 Report Share Posted October 3, 2004 I think you **CAN** generalize about doses with supplements and especially pro-hormones and their kin. While unregulated, they're still open to lawsuit and I believe most intentionally understate the dosages. Most users of Pat Arnold Products I know and read of use far more than the labelled dose; and I'm sure I've read something along those lines from the great PA himself. That doesn't mean everyone's not different: Were you aware that I went from T of ~115 to T of 1500+ on just 5grams of Androgel. Others here don't get half that boost on twice the dosage. I would certainly never argue that everyone's body reacts differently. If they didn't we wouldn't be here talking about titrating doses, etc, etc. > Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO > > > > > I doubt 6-OXO produces better results > > at the advertised/labelled doses... > > The only way to know is to try it and get before and after > blood tests to validate the results. > > > it's pretty common for these pro-hormones and other supplements to > > label at fairly useless doses just to avoid legal action, isn't it. > > Are you aware that I get extremely good results from > Indolplex using 15% of the recommended daily dosage? See my > primer article 7 of 8 entitled " Adjusting DIM Dosage " in the > files section of this group for details. > > I don't think you can generalize about dosages. Everyone's different. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 > Most users of Pat Arnold Products I know and > read of use far more than the labelled dose... Interesting. But keep in mind that these are guys that are boosting their T way over the top of the normal range and, thereby, producing way too much E2. I suspect that, in general, a man on TRT who gets his T up to say 800 would need a lot less 6-OXO to control E2 than a bodybuilder who routinely puts his T up to 1500 or so. I'd be very interested to hear about the experience (blood tests and clinical response) of men on TRT who use 6-OXO for E2 management. In particular, I'd like to hear from men who've tried both 6-OXO and Arimidex and can describe the difference in clinical response (i.e., fatigue, libido, ED, etc.) and the problem of adjusting E2 too low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 Hhhhmmm. If DIM lowers DHT, do you know by how much (is it a lot, or negligible)? Does this 6-OXO stuff also lower DHT in a similar way? Thanks.../Dale Re: Ergopharm 6-OXO > Most users of Pat Arnold Products I know and > read of use far more than the labelled dose... Interesting. But keep in mind that these are guys that are boosting their T way over the top of the normal range and, thereby, producing way too much E2. I suspect that, in general, a man on TRT who gets his T up to say 800 would need a lot less 6-OXO to control E2 than a bodybuilder who routinely puts his T up to 1500 or so. I'd be very interested to hear about the experience (blood tests and clinical response) of men on TRT who use 6-OXO for E2 management. In particular, I'd like to hear from men who've tried both 6-OXO and Arimidex and can describe the difference in clinical response (i.e., fatigue, libido, ED, etc.) and the problem of adjusting E2 too low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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