Guest guest Posted June 29, 2001 Report Share Posted June 29, 2001 I have read a lot about these flushes, and various " complimentary " practitioners say that the flushes (ie. olive oil, lemon, Coke, etc.) make your liver go into peristalsis, and expels these " stones " that (according to The Encyclopedia of Natural Medicine) Murray, ND, and ph Pizzorno, ND state on page 481 " ...what they think are gallstones are simply a soft saponified complex of minerals, olive oil, and lemon juice produced within the gastrointestinal tract. The olive oil liver flush is probably undesirable for patients with gallstones for several reasons...a large quantity of any oil (will) result in contraction (which) may increase the likelihood of a stone blocking the bile duct...requiring immediate surgery. ...(O)leic acid ...has been shown to increase the development of gallstones in rabbits...by increasing the content of cholesterol in the gallbladder...This does not mean that the liver flush is invalid as a method of (detoxification)....(but) not recommended for individuals with gallstones. " They are pretty well respected in their field, but you can still do research, and, preferably act wisely, and appropriately! In Health, Steve -------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, I have purchased the 'Cure for all Diseases' book and should have it Monday. After 10 days on the parasite program I may be experiencing some benefit, but I'll leave it for the time being until I get solid evidence that this is working for me. I have jumped the gun many times in the past regarding other techniques and therapies. After noticing the parasite program hasn't helped certain problems, and after a few months of net research, I am coming to the conclusion that I must have 'something' wrong with my liver. I think it has to do with fat metabolism, but there are probably many other aspects of my health that the liver deals with (as Chinese medicine says). So the thing that intrigues me the most about the Hulda program is the liver flush. I'll wait 'till I get the book before trying. But I would appreciate some 'definite' comments on the following. Are the liver flush 'stones' simply olive oil, as is stated by certain people on the net? If not, has anyone categorically proven this not to be the case? Has ever analysed the stones and published the data? Regarding people using the flush, I said before that the parasite program 'may' be having an effect. But has anybody had a really 'big' effect from the liver flush, or is it again a slight improvement of conditions. And finally, regarding the flush history, Hulda says master herbalists are to credit for the flush. Does anyone has references to the flush in earlier books or even ancient literature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2001 Report Share Posted June 30, 2001 Enter liver flush in the archives section, and you will see extensive discussion about its effectiveness, plus first hand accounts about results. Leo -------------------------------- > Hi, > > I have purchased the 'Cure for all Diseases' book and should have it > Monday. After 10 days on the parasite program I may be experiencing > some benefit, but I'll leave it for the time being until I get solid > evidence that this is working for me. I have jumped the gun many times > in the past regarding other techniques and therapies. > > After noticing the parasite program hasn't helped certain problems, > and after a few months of net research, I am coming to the conclusion > that I must have 'something' wrong with my liver. I think it has to do > with fat metabolism, but there are probably many other aspects of my > health that the liver deals with (as Chinese medicine says). > > So the thing that intrigues me the most about the Hulda program is the > liver flush. I'll wait 'till I get the book before trying. But I would > appreciate some 'definate' comments on the following. > > Are the liver flush 'stones' simply olive oil, as is stated by certain > people on the net? If not, has anyone categorically proven this not to > be the case? Has ever analysed the stones and published the > data? > > Regarding people using the flush, I said before that the parasite > program 'may' be having an effect. But has anybody had a really 'big' > effect from the liver flush, or is it again a slight improvement of > conditions. > > And finally, regarding the flush history, Hulda says master herbalists > are to credit for the flush. Does anyone has references to the flush > in earlier books or even ancient literature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2001 Report Share Posted June 30, 2001 Learn from other people: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2001 Report Share Posted June 30, 2001 >>>>Are the liver flush 'stones' simply olive oil, as is stated by certain people on the net? If not, has anyone categorically proven this not to be the case? Has ever analysed the stones and published the data?>>>> 1) If they were olive oil, you would get the same amount of stones out each time because you take the same amount of olive oil each flush. Yet my hubby got out 3,000 stones the first time, and several hundred the second time; I got out about 1,000 the first time, and around 100 the second. 2) If they were olive oil you wouldn't notice any major changes in health after doing one, yet my husband noticed a pain in his right side went away, I noticed my face looks softer, I lost 10 pounds since the flush and kept it off without any effort, my irritable bowel syndrome went completely away the same day of the flush, and hasn't returned. 3) I let my stones set in a covered plastic container for a week afterwards, and they melted, and so I rinsed out the container with hot water and soap, but noticed a thick, waxy pure white substance in the bottom of the dish. I tried to use really hot water but it wouldn't melt. So I dug it our with a spoon and it was still really hard to get out- it was like softened wax. This is cholesterol. Gallstones are made of cholesterol, bile, particles of junk from your liver, etc. If they stay in you long enough they can get real hard. Anyway, if they were just olive oil blobs they wouldn't have had all that cholesterol in them. My husband originally had an ultrasound that showed multiple gallstones in his gallbladder. I plan to ask the doc to do one more ultrasound after he does a few more flushes and see if stones still show up in his gallbladder. When we do this I'll post the results. >>>>Regarding people using the flush, I said before that the parasite program 'may' be having an effect. But has anybody had a really 'big' effect from the liver flush, or is it again a slight improvement of conditions.>>>> Well, I don't know exactly which of the several things we've been doing has done this, because we are also taking parasite herbs, olive leaf extract and colloidal silver for virus killing, milk thistle for repairing the liver, and making our own juices fairly often now. But my husband has hepatitis c, and just got his most recent lab results back, and his liver enzymes (ALT & AST- that show the extent of liver damage a person has, and indicate possible cirrhosis, and should be 0-40, but were 761 and 691 in January of this year) are now 179 & 178. That's a really 'big' effect to me, but may be from all the things we've done and not just the flushes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2001 Report Share Posted June 30, 2001 I would doubt seriously that two naturopathic doctors (one a professor) from the prestigious Bastyr University would have any reason to keep people scared into waiting on surgery, or keeping them in business, except for the reason of the small, but possible chance that they (the stones) do create a obstruction; which, as a doctor, they would be totally irresponsible in suggesting self treating w/o supervision if there is any chance in a billion!! Second, self experience does account for something, but (to play devils advocate) your body makes and needs cholesterol, and according to their accusation, stones. If that's the case, you're adjustment in living habits, etc., after the original flush " could be due to cleared stones, or less cholesterol accumulation, which is normal in the liver, as it is stored, and converted there! I have not tried the flush, so I gave one side of it to give the explanation for what's " on the internet " , and advise to search both sides, and do the flush supervised by a knowledgeable doctor, naturopath, etc., in case the 1 in whatever chance of blockage DOES occur! Also, unless you've had a more professional analysis than playing with a spoon, don't so adamantly dispel possibilities, as if there's only one answer. I know people who have tried, and swear by these alternatives, are, and should be very supportive, and want to spread the word, but I would hate to be the one that set someone up for that 1 in whatever chance to have major (perhaps) life threatening complications! Also, firing out accusations about someone's beliefs that are more educated than mine, puts me down on the level that I was accusing them of! I hate what most of the medical establishment stands for, too, but I am not foolish enough to think that we need no doctors, and that doctors who push only all natural lifestyles, supplements, etc., are stupid, or crooked because they tell you that there are chances (no matter how small) that you MIGHT shouldn't take; at least, on your own!! I am not trying to belittle, or berate your oppinions, as I'm far from an expert, on any of this stuff; plus that puts me on the level with the " other side " that DOES have an axe to grind!! In Health, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2001 Report Share Posted June 30, 2001 This proves nothing, but, in traveling with Dr. to a symposium about her methods, there was a table on which a couple had laid out their collection of 'stones' from their liver flushes. These were hard, of various sizes, and definitely stones. Jan __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2001 Report Share Posted June 30, 2001 Steve, These stones that people get from flushes, of which there are numerous pictures on the internet, match perfectly the appearance and composition of the stones which are surgically removed along with their accompanying gall bladders. So, you have stones that are removed surgically prior to any flushes, and identical stones being flushed out without surgery. Vince >From: Jan Bolen <jurimed@...> >Reply-Dr >Dr >Subject: Re: Liver Flush Validity >Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 07:51:32 -0700 (PDT) > >This proves nothing, but, in traveling with Dr. >to a symposium about her methods, there was a table on >which a couple had laid out their collection of >'stones' from their liver flushes. These were hard, of >various sizes, and definitely stones. > >Jan > >__________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2001 Report Share Posted June 30, 2001 The naturopaths, doctors, or whoever they are, do not (at least in the quote on this list) give the evidentiary basis for their conclusions. They just state their conclusions, based on some more assumptions. This is being very irresponsible for professional people. They furthermore, they talk irresponsibly about 1 in whatever chance of this procedure doing harm. What they fail to do is balance the probabilities of good v harm. This again is very irresponsible for professional people. It is very responsible to site observable facts which one has personally witnessed, then draw the most reasonable and probable conclusions based on those observations. The quotes from the educated people show how wrong headed our professionals can be (and are). Furthermore, to denigrate them is not automatically putting down their believers. Leo ------------------------------------------------- > Steve, > > These stones that people get from flushes, of which there are numerous > pictures on the internet, match perfectly the appearance and composition of > the stones which are surgically removed along with their accompanying gall > bladders. So, you have stones that are removed surgically prior to any > flushes, and identical stones being flushed out without surgery. > > Vince > > > >From: Jan Bolen <jurimed@y...> > >Reply-Dr@y... > >Dr@y... > >Subject: Re: Liver Flush Validity > >Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 07:51:32 -0700 (PDT) > > > >This proves nothing, but, in traveling with Dr. > >to a symposium about her methods, there was a table on > >which a couple had laid out their collection of > >'stones' from their liver flushes. These were hard, of > >various sizes, and definitely stones. > > > >Jan > > > >__________________________________________________ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2001 Report Share Posted June 30, 2001 It is healthy to banter, but also wise to research all sides; and also wise to do anything that you do under the supervision of a knowledgeable, open-minded practitioner, albeit conventional, alternative, nutritionist, homeopath, etc.. There's too many things that may go wrong (ie. allergic reactions, obstructions, overdosage, underdosage, contraindications, etc., etc.) for everyone to self medicate for anything, and everything; especially until you've got the feel for what you're doing! The book was on supplements, and lifestyle changes that would help with different ailments, not on gallstones, and liver flushes, so the space needed to elaborate on the pros or cons of any treatment was limited, and I touched briefly on the jest of what was said. (ie. the flush is a good detoxifier, but may be too dangerous to just have everyone that wants to see a stone go for it, especially if you've had notable complications/symptoms) If you've done this before, and it worked, maybe you can do a follow-up on your own, but if there's a 1 in whatever chance (my emphasis, not theirs) then (if this is truly legit) there has to be plenty of practitioners (alternative or otherwise) to assist you and play it safe. Besides, NSAIDS have their advantages in more than just quenching inflammation, but at least 20 -40% of long term users may get liver damage and/or bleeding ulcers! This too has it's positives and negatives, but you should research for best options, and have someone qualified to keep track of if you're a success, or if you're in the 20-40%! This is indirectly the same as what you were saying, in weigh the positives (60-80% is more positive than negative, but I wouldn't want to take the risk, unless it was my only, or by far, best option) and do it! I used to have an arrhythmia a few years back, and I ignored it (other than vitamins, etc.) knowing that in Virginia, there are no licensed (or insurance approved) alternative practitioners, though we do have a few open-minded and/or alternative thinking professionals, and not wanting to hear what I didn't want to, or be prescribed meds.. Finally, I went and had tests, and nobody could find anything that stood out, except my HDL was too low, so I upped my B6, B12, folic acid, and started taking Co-Q10, and it eventually righted itself! I self medicated, but had the test done first to make sure that I wasn't in-line to wake up dead one day from ignoring, and hoping that it would go away; and I researched! The bottom line research thoroughly, and have the support of someone that is knowledgeable in all aspects of, (ie gallbladder problems) and qualified to handle that 1 in whatever should it arise; as I don't think anyone wants anyone else's death or disability on their conscience! Then, if it does work, shout it from the rooftops!! In Health, Steve -------------------------------------------------------------- The naturopaths, doctors, or whoever they are, do not (at least in the quote on this list) give the evidentiary basis for their conclusions. They just state their conclusions, based on some more assumptions. This is being very irresponsible for professional people. They furthermore, they talk irresponsibly about 1 in whatever chance of this procedure doing harm. What they fail to do is balance the probabilities of good v harm. This again is very irresponsible for professional people. It is very responsible to site observable facts which one has personally witnessed, then draw the most reasonable and probable conclusions based on those observations. The quotes from the educated people show how wrong headed our professionals can be (and are). Furthermore, to denigrate them is not automatically putting down their believers. Leo ------------------------------------------------- --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 My earlier statement has not been challenged in any way. And this list is not for people who don't want a " 1 in something " risk. This list is about people sharing their experiences and offering suggestions without a risk assessment. As for consulting with a professional, that is for you to decide for yourself. Every person on this list decides for himself/herself what is " wise " . Leo ------------------------------------------------------ > It is healthy to banter, but also wise to research all sides; and also wise to do anything that you do under the supervision of a knowledgeable, open-minded practitioner, albeit conventional, alternative, nutritionist, homeopath, etc.. There's too many things that may go wrong (ie. allergic reactions, obstructions, overdosage, underdosage, contraindications, etc., etc.) for everyone to self medicate for anything, and everything; especially until you've got the feel for what you're doing! > > The book was on supplements, and lifestyle changes that would help with different ailments, not on gallstones, and liver flushes, so the space needed to elaborate on the pros or cons of any treatment was limited, and I touched briefly on the jest of what was said. (ie. the flush is a good detoxifier, but may be too dangerous to just have everyone that wants to see a stone go for it, especially if you've had notable complications/symptoms) > > If you've done this before, and it worked, maybe you can do a follow-up on your own, but if there's a 1 in whatever chance (my emphasis, not theirs) then (if this is truly legit) there has to be plenty of practitioners (alternative or otherwise) to assist you and play it safe. Besides, NSAIDS have their advantages in more than just quenching inflammation, but at least 20 -40% of long term users may get liver damage and/or bleeding ulcers! This too has it's positives and negatives, but you should research for best options, and have someone qualified to keep track of if you're a success, or if you're in the 20-40%! This is indirectly the same as what you were saying, in weigh the positives (60-80% is more positive than negative, but I wouldn't want to take the risk, unless it was my only, or by far, best option) and do it! > > I used to have an arrhythmia a few years back, and I ignored it (other than vitamins, etc.) knowing that in Virginia, there are no licensed (or insurance approved) alternative practitioners, though we do have a few open-minded and/or alternative thinking professionals, and not wanting to hear what I didn't want to, or be prescribed meds.. Finally, I went and had tests, and nobody could find anything that stood out, except my HDL was too low, so I upped my B6, B12, folic acid, and started taking Co-Q10, and it eventually righted itself! I self medicated, but had the test done first to make sure that I wasn't in-line to wake up dead one day from ignoring, and hoping that it would go away; and I researched! > > The bottom line research thoroughly, and have the support of someone that is knowledgeable in all aspects of, (ie gallbladder problems) and qualified to handle that 1 in whatever should it arise; as I don't think anyone wants anyone else's death or disability on their conscience! Then, if it does work, shout it from the rooftops!! > > In Health, > Steve > -------------------------------------------------------------- > The naturopaths, doctors, or whoever they are, do not (at least in the quote on this list) give the evidentiary basis for their conclusions. They just state their conclusions, based on some more assumptions. This is being very irresponsible for professional people. > > They furthermore, they talk irresponsibly about 1 in whatever chance of this procedure doing harm. What they fail to do is balance the probabilities of good v harm. This again is very irresponsible for professional people. > > It is very responsible to site observable facts which one has personally witnessed, then draw the most reasonable and probable conclusions based on those observations. > > The quotes from the educated people show how wrong headed our professionals can be (and are). Furthermore, to denigrate them is not automatically putting down their believers. > Leo > ------------------------------------------------- > --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 Thank you , for your timely and valuable sharing of your experience. Your kind of information makes this list so valuable. Leo ------------------------------------ > I understand what you are saying and your concerns. I just think that them > saying what they said is an over-reaction, based on what I've read online > from others who have done it and what I and friends have experienced, as > I've never heard of even one time where the flush caused a blockage, and > many times where it unblocked one. And I've been a nurse for 24 years (not > bragging- just saying I've seen a lot), and just in the past few months I've > seen several gallbladder surgeries gone bad, to where it makes me think that > ther doctors ways are much more dangerous than the flushes. One patient who > had the surgery had a doctor who nicked her main artery, and she lost 1500ml > of blood in surgery, and the doctors sent her to our regular floor as if she > was okay, she went into shock and we had to rush her to intensive care, and > she had to have blood. Another one had the surgery and doc nicked her bowel, > and she got peritonitis real bad, had about 10 different drains coming out > of her, a huge open wound on her abdomen, and has been in the hospital for > several months trying to heal, having repeated surgeries to try and drain > the poison out of her. Another one was an old lady who came in in pretty > good shape but had a medical problem (not a real serious one) and when they > scanned her they found she had gallstones (most people do) and even though > she wasn't having any pain they took out her gallbladder, and the surgery > drained her so much that she became unresponsive. Her daughter was crying in > her room trying to figure out how she got this bad, and the doctor told me > he was going to come in in the morning and tell the daughter that she was > probably going to die and there is nothing we can do for her. So when > someone (especially a doctor) tells people that the flushes, or herbs, or > natural treatment are dangerous I think about how dangerous being treated by > a doctor is, and tend to laugh at that statement. Those you spoke of as > being naturopathic doctors surprised me, as it surprises me that they would > say that. Oh well! But needing supervision because of a possible chance of > one in a billion- I don't agree with that. There is a chance that taking an > aspirin could cause you to bleed internally and get in trouble, but we take > them anyway, and taking an enema at home could possibly cause a bowel > perforation, or some other problem, but people don't think twice about doing > it without supervision, etc. I think a flush is too safe to worry about such > a slight possibility. And even if a stone did get stuck, it really doesn't > become life threatening unless it stays there for perhaps a few days and > causes an infection that could poison the body. It mainly causes a lot of > pain. But seldom do they do emergency gallbladder surgeries- they give pain > meds and do them the next day, except in rare occasions, from what I've > experienced at work. > > re: Liver flush validity > > > > I would doubt seriously that two naturopathic doctors (one a professor) > from the prestigious Bastyr University would have any reason to keep people > scared into waiting on surgery, or keeping them in business, except for the > reason of the small, but possible chance that they (the stones) do create a > obstruction; which, as a doctor, they would be totally irresponsible in > suggesting self treating w/o supervision if there is any chance in a > billion!! Second, self experience does account for something, but (to play > devils advocate) your body makes and needs cholesterol, and according to > their accusation, stones. If that's the case, you're adjustment in living > habits, etc., after the original flush " could be due to cleared stones, or > less cholesterol accumulation, which is normal in the liver, as it is > stored, and converted there! > > > > I have not tried the flush, so I gave one side of it to give the > explanation for what's " on the internet " , and advise to search both sides, > and do the flush supervised by a knowledgeable doctor, naturopath, etc., in > case the 1 in whatever chance of blockage DOES occur! Also, unless you've > had a more professional analysis than playing with a spoon, don't so > adamantly dispel possibilities, as if there's only one answer. I know people > who have tried, and swear by these alternatives, are, and should be very > supportive, and want to spread the word, but I would hate to be the one that > set someone up for that 1 in whatever chance to have major (perhaps) life > threatening complications! Also, firing out accusations about someone's > beliefs that are more educated than mine, puts me down on the level that I > was accusing them of! I hate what most of the medical establishment stands > for, too, but I am not foolish enough to think that we need no doctors, and > that > > doctors who push only all natural lifestyles, supplements, etc., are > stupid, or crooked because they tell you that there are chances (no matter > how small) that you MIGHT shouldn't take; at least, on your own!! > > > > I am not trying to belittle, or berate your oppinions, as I'm far from an > expert, on any of this stuff; plus that puts me on the level with the " other > side " that DOES have an axe to grind!! > > > > In Health, > > Steve > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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