Re: Polyps found in gallbladder......

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

You did OK until you wrote this:

<<

" Steve Barrett >>

This man is against all alternative, and doesn't have proof for much of what

he spews. He was called on stating that more info. would follow.(on the

bottom of his websites) He NEVER followed through, now he has taken that

down. He only reports the studies that he agrees with. You would do well to

quote most anyone other that QUACK Bar..RAT. I know very little about

cancer, however I do know all about mercury poisoning. I nearly died, then I

had the metal removed from my mouth and alive and doing well. I can only

attest to the methods I have tried of Dr 's. They work EXACTLY as she

has stated, and she sure is correct about the teeth.

There are many others here that she has helped. Yes I would like her methods

proven, that takes time. I would suggest you are on the wrong group, since

most of us have been helped by Dr . Had I not read her books and taken

her advice, I would most likely be six foot under.

When you have search for an answer for years (while your health is

deteriorating) and spent $20,000, and your bowels have nearly shut down, you

know you must read, research and yes try <gasp> something that hasn't been

proven yet. That's what I did.....THANK GOD. When conventional can't find

your problem, what do you suggest ? There is plenty of evidence

concerning metal in the mouth, the *ONLY* reason it hasn't been proven is

because of the lies of the ADA.....and people like QUACK

Bar...RAT..........So say what you will but leave out this man...because he

is a QUACK of the worst kind..............:-(((

Jan

[Guest guest]

The following two messages I will comment on below:

Polyps found in gallbladder......

> I was just getting ready to do a flush and an ultrasound found I have

> some small polyps(cysts) in the gallbladder. I was told I am

> gallstone free.

>

> From reading Dr. 's book, am I to assume that the cysts are from

> a fluke? And I can get rid of them by zapping or doing the parasite

> cleansing procedure?

>

> I would really like to be able to take matters into my own hands

> before going back to the doc for more tests. I would like to be able

> to prove that Dr. 's methodoligy really works. I would also

> like to abstain from having any type of surgery.

>

> Also, is there any chance that I DO have gallstones but they are too

> small for the ultrasound to pick up?

>

> Thanks for any help!

>

> from IL

>

********************************'

Hi ,

There are several things you should know. Real gallstones are visible on x-rays

and ultrasound. If the operator of the ultrasound is very inept, extreeeeeemely

small stones could get overseen, but I really doubt it. Which brings up the most

simple way to prove or disprove (not that that interests most true believers)

Hulda Regehr 's claims regarding the flushing of gallstones: take an x-ray

before and after.

This must be done by someone who doesn't believe in Hulda 's claims to

avoid interpretation bias. And to make it at least a single-blinded test (better

than nothing, but far from the gold standard), the one taking the x-rays should

not know that an experiment is going on.

We already know that the " gallstones " produced after her flushing procedure are

just saponified fats (*). That's why they float. Real gallstones sink. What goes

in, does come out! So all those " gallstones " that come out between the before

and after x-rays are just so much BS! Just like Hulda's theories.

(*) Epsom salts and olive oil saponify into " stones " . You can do your own

experiment by making soap using vegetable shortening, muriatic (hydrochloric)

acid, and household lye. In principle the same thing happens.

Your assumptions " that the cysts are from a fluke? And I can get rid of them by

zapping or doing the parasite cleansing procedure? " are just that: assumptions

based upon multiple delusions served up by Hulda . And she sells these

delusions for a lot of money.

Zapping has no proven effect on parasites, gallstones or polyps, just as the

procedure for flushing of the liver/gallbladder has no proven effect on real

gallstones. (Well, I'll have to modify my statement. If you put a parasite

between the plates, it might suffer some damage. But not in your body.)

We're still waiting for those who claim these things to prove it. They still

haven't produced anything but anecdotes based on circular reasoning,

accusations, evasions, lies, death threats and the like so far. They use (on

this list) anything, especially non-replies, to silence anyone that casts any

doubt on Hulda's unverified claims. But that doesn't stop them from selling

books, zappers and trips to Mexico that can cost real lives.

It would be interesting to know what kind of money those selling 's stuff

bring in. The cartel runs a very profitable business. There's Hulda's son

Geoffrey and her brother Leo Regehr in on the action, there are the syncrometer

seminars, there's the Scientologist Amrein, Tim Bolen (her " publicist " ,

" public relations manager " , " Hulda 's war leader (media expert) " ,

" consultant for the Hulda campaign " ) and Jan Bolen, the Tijuana clinic

setup, Tony Brown Productions and the videos they

offer, and then the dozens (maybe hundreds...thousands?) of people on their own

selling zappers, syncrometers, herbs, tooth removals and tooth replacements.

If people with serious diseases really were being healed by her, then she could

make millions on it and I'd think she deserved it. (I am American, after all!)

But she's making millions without that happening. Those who are really sick die.

And many others become convinced that they really are sick, when they aren't.

And then they get " healed " by a zapper: a new, unverified anecdote of a Hulda

miracle......:-(( Hogwash! She's a quack in the worst sense of the word.

The following excerpts are taken from CancerGuide

http://www.cancerguide.org/hulda_clark.html

" Hulda 's " Cure for All Cancers "

" I'm going to admit to you right up front that I haven't carefully researched

Hulda 's theories. In fact, I've spent a total of about fifteen minutes

looking over her book, The Cure For All Cancers, in a local health food store.

That's all the time I needed to figure out if there is anything worthwhile

there, but take my advice for what it's worth...... "

(You should read his apology further down, for only taking 15 minutes.....)

" Hulda 's cases are classic examples of rotten methodology. She doesn't

provide good documentation of the diagnosis of her cases .....Her cases validate

her tests and her tests validate her cases. The snake swallows its tail! There

is no excuse whatever for her not to monitor her patients with standard methods

such as X-Rays, MRI's and valid antigen marker tests.

" In addition to her bogus tests, the follow-up times she reports for her

patients are absurdly short, often just a few days or weeks. As too many of us

know by hard experience, cancer is a disease that can recur years after

apparently definitive treatment. But Hulda declares her patients cured in a few

days on the basis of her quack tests. There is no data.

" If there's no data, I don't believe it. And neither should you. In fact, I

wouldn't believe anything from someone who, based on these case reports,

apparently has as poor a grasp on what constitutes evidence as Hulda does.

I have to say that I find the popularity of this therapy extremely disheartening

evidence of a low level of critical thinking. If you have no rational skeptism,

you'll fall for the first alternative therapy you encounter. And since there is

so much nonsense out there, you'll very likely pay the price. In this country,

the price of relying on nonsense can be very, very high.

" Why I Should Have Spent More than Fifteen Minutes: A Modest Apology

" I have gotten more critical email about this article than anything else in

CancerGuide, and almost all of it takes me to task for spending only fifteen

minutes looking at the cases in The Cure for All Cancers. I must apologize, for

of all these complaints are quite correct. I have missed some of the truth due

to my failure to spend enough time. As it turns out, had I invested the time, I

would have had very good reason to be even more skeptical!

" Ralph Moss (see below) reviews The Cure for All Cancers in his book Herbs

Against Cancer: History and Controversy and he is positively scathing. .....You

should know that Ralph Moss is one of the foremost advocates of alternative

therapies. He is also a true scholar. If there were value to be found in Hulda

's " cure " , Ralph Moss would be about the last person on the planet to shy

away from it.

" Steve Barrett is a tireless alternative therapies skeptic, and the founder of

QuackWatch http://www.quackwatch.com/ . Dr. Barrett also spent more than 15

minutes on The Cure for All Cancers. In fact, he analyzed the cases

individually, and by his count, in at least 59 of the 100 cases there wasn't a

reliable diagnosis of cancer! Get the details in his very informative (and

properly skeptical) article on Hulda

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/clark.html .

" When Quackbuster, Steve Barrett, and alternative therapies scholar and

proponent, Ralph Moss, actually agree on something it's surely a remarkable

event! To get agreement between these two must take something rather cut and

dried - like the absurdity of Hulda 's Cure for All Cancers. "

END OF EXCERPTS

****************

Ralph Moss, PhD

" I also want to say that there's a lot of outrageous behavior on the side of

alternative medicine. We have seen crazy, from my point of view, crazy stuff. We

had a tape, Dead Doctors Don't Lie. Supposedly doctors die at the age of 58. I

did the math. Doctors die at the age of 73, just like every other male dominated

group in America.

" We had a book, Hulda , The Cure for All Cancers. I'd love somebody to

point out to me one case in that book, not 100, but just one of somebody with a

biopsy-proven case of cancer who truly was cured. Supposedly every case of

cancer is caused by parasite infestation with fasciolopsis buski. The Center for

Infectious Diseases found only 1 out of 216,000 people infested with

fasciolopsis buski. "

http://www.cmbm.org/Conference98/transcripts/moss.html

**************

Another quote:

" Operators of electrodiagnostic devices are well known for pronouncing the

detection of a laundry-list of Diseases Du Jour, and can therefore achieve

reasonable inter-operator repeatability by simply making sure they include as

many as possible of the usual suspects - focal infection, mercury poisoning from

fillings, lupus, Lyme disease, candida albicans overgrowth, chemical

sensitivity, leaky gut syndrome, chronic fatigue syndrome, parasites, you name

it. Some of these diseases have at least a reasonable grounding in reality, but

the mark of the electrodiagnostic quack is that he'll find a goodly selection of

them in whoever he sees, the precise combination being determined by the guru he

happens to follow. This is a common feature of alternative medicine; take a

patient, sick or not, to a Hulda fan and you'll find he's got parasites.

Take the same person to an acupuncturist and you'll get a diagnosis of chi

imbalance, with nary a mention of those elusive little worms. An orthodox

chiropractor will find subluxations galore; a fan of Betty i's Mission

Possible International will be convinced it's aspartame poisoning. "

http://www.fromorbit.com/drutter/legal2.htm

******************

People Against Cancer

An Open letter to anyone dealing with cancer from the son of a cancer victim.

June 29, 1998

By Bill Ross

http://www.hcrc.org/contrib/ross/pac.html

********************

Another link

http://bcn.net/~stoll/archives/cancer/23750.html

****************

A Special Message for Cancer Patients

http://www.familyinternet.com/quackwatch/00AboutQuackwatch/altseek.html

******************

You are welcome to contact me.

If you respond to this on the list, PLEASE notify me privately as well.

Sincerely,

Lee, PT

Denmark

The Quack-Files - http://www.geocities.com/healthbase

HF List Intro. - http://www.hcrc.org/wwwboard/messages/197.shtml

E-mail - pglee@...

********************************************************************************\

***

" Mankind's capacity for deception and self-deception knows no limits. "

" Mundus vult decipi " (the world wants to be deceived)

" If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. " Reebok ad.

" Manipulation isn't all it's cracked up to be! "

********************************************************************************\

***

[Guest guest]

PHEW..............feel better ?

<snip>

> He is not against all alternative

Uh huh.........name several that he isn't against.

, just against the exploitation of unproven

> methods. He only asks for proof.

While many thing used in conventional medicine *aren't* proven.

If the proof were forthcoming, it wouldn't

> be " alternative " anymore, but would be accepted by him and the rest of the

> medical and scientific community as evidence-based medicine.

BULL. Several alternative methods that have had over 1000 cases histories of

good results are being discussed..............and NOT accepted by

conventional MD's. Don't try to tell me how easy it is........it's like

beating your head against a stone wall.

Look , I am on a lot of newsgroups and I have heard it all before. I am

totally convinced that this conventional verus alternative has become an all

out argument to see who can win. I am on a private list with several MD's who

wouldn't accept *ANYTHING* alternative if it hit them smack dab in the

face.............PERIOD

> It has come to light that the FDA and the Pharmaceutical Advertising

> Counsel ( " PAC " ), which represents some 35 major drug companies, have

> formed and co-funded a corporation under a joint letterhead, calling itself

> the National Council Against Health Fraud ( " NCAHF " ). Under this

> questionable aegis, Jarvis, MD, and Barrett, MD, and

others,

> are paid to publicly discredit as unscientific or unknown any or all viable

> herbs, vitamins, homeopathic remedies or non-allopathic therapies,

> particularly

> those that are proven to have the most promise and present the greatest

> threat to the PAC members. "

>

>

> Who is the author of this " forwarded " piece of garbage? I'd like to know.

> Send me the link.

I just saw that tonight on misc health alternative newsgroup.. Many topics

there, but you can take a look, it's there.

In the meantime, you might want to read this one also.

<A HREF= " http://www.usatoday.com/news/washdc/ncssun06.htm " >

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washdc/ncssun06.htm</A>

> This contains libel, punishable by law, and is a misrepresentation of the

> facts:

>

> 1. The FDA and PAC have nothing to do with NCAHF.

>

> 2. Jarvis, Barrett, et al, are not " paid to publicly discredit as ..... "

>

> 3. Any " viable herbs, vitamins, homeopathic remedies or non-allopathic

> therapies, ... " would be accepted by them, IF they really were viable.

>

> 4. The non-viable products are not a " threat to the PAC members " , since

they

> don't work, and can even be dangerous. That's one reason why they are

> increasingly being called " complementary " (CAM). They are usually used " in

> addition to " proven medicine, not instead of, except in certain cases with

> tragic outcomes, such as some of the cases which Hulda treats.

Proof please.

> The important point is that scientific medicine is moving FORWARD and AWAY

> from earlier superstition, quackery, etc., while alt. med. is digging in

the

> garbage heap of what modern science has proven to be ineffective and has

> discarded. In fact, alt. med. is often moving BACK TOWARDS the

superstitions

> and ignorance of earlier times.

Really now. If conventional was all that good, there would be no need for

alternative. 50% of people are turning to alternative.............can you

tell us *why*??? And don't give me the old gullible routine................As

for me it was because conventional didn't have an answer, my condition wasn't

in the recipe book.............therefore they couldn't find it. I found it

through *several* alternative methods, and I am regaining my health.

And all in the name of health freedom. Modern

> science is trying to sort out the chaff from the wheat, while alt. med.

doesn'

> t seem to care at all about the question of proof or efficacy.

I can tell you why , it's because of people like *you*. They are busy

helping people get well, they don't have time to *wrangle* with those who

have their minds make up.

> Here's the kind of trouble Hulda has been in and the suffering she's caused:

>

> " In September 1999, was arrested in San Diego, California, based on

a

> fugitive warrant from Indiana, where she faces charges of practicing

medicine

> without a license. In November, a former patient filed suit accusing her of

> negligence and fraud.

>

> " The criminal case originated when lived and practiced in Indiana

[5,6]

> . In 1993, after a former patient complained to the Indiana attorney

general,

> a health department official visited accompanied by a deputy attorney

general

> visited her office and was diagnosed with AIDS and sent to a laboratory for

a

> blood test [7]. -- apparently tipped off by the lab -- found out she

> was being investigated and left Indiana a few days later. In 1999,

was

> apprehended in California and returned to Indiana to stand trial. However,

in

> April 2000, an Indiana judge dismissed the charges on grounds that too much

> time had elapsed between the filing of the charges and 's arrest. The

> judge's verdict did not address the merits of the charges but only the

issue

> of whether the delay had compromised 's ability to mount a defense [8].

No kidding............NEWS FLASH: I was there, in Nashville in court. I live

in Bloomington, IN. (I knew Hulda years ago and had her son in my daycare.) I

also know Amy who visited her office, and her newly elected husband who

wanted to make a name for himself. As a matter of fact Amy goofed up in court

and said she knew where Hulda was and could have found her in no

time.............so I don't need you to tell me what you *think* the story

was................because I know all about it first hand.

> It is not " Medicine " , but is usually against the practice of medicine. The

> opposition is often bitter, outspoken, derogatory and nasty. There can be

no

> question as to the real intent of the practitioners of CAM and the enormous

> industries supporting them: the total eradication/domination of EBM. But

just

> as long as they can get their fingers in Federal moneys, they'll be quite

> satisfied to work alongside EBM.

HOGWASH! Let me tell you a little secret . I know Hulda, I saw her

everyday for two years. I've been in her home and her office. She lives very

plain and simple and couldn't care less about money. She wouldn't live one

bit different if she owned the whole world. I have been to several

alternative practitioners, ALL of them became alternative because they had a

problem themselves THAT CONVENTIONAL COULDN'T FIND. I have yet to met any who

were just interested in money. Quite the contrary, they are interested in

helping people regain their health.

How much experience have you had with alternative practitioners . Let me

guess.........NONE.......this is all just your assumptions and opinions.

I've been there and done that.............and nearly died...........and

prayed to die. Until you have.......don't even try to tell me about something

you know nothing about!!

Now it's late and I must get some sleep, as I take care of my parents (in

their home) on the weekends. They both have alzheimers. It's a very humbling

experience.

So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Jan

[Guest guest]

Re: Polyps found in gallbladder......

> Dear ,

>

> You did OK until you wrote this:

>

> << " Steve Barrett >>

Nice to hear you'll even admit that much. The problem is the diversionary ploy

you now use to undermine what I wrote and lead attention away from it, which is

the result (and probably the intention) of what you write below about Dr.

Barrett. Whether the rest of the readers on this list will fall for it is a good

question. You write:

> I would suggest you are on the wrong group, since

> most of us have been helped by Dr ......

> Yes I would like her methods proven, that takes time.

I am not on this group to learn something that has not been proven as yet, a

fact which you do concede. Such " knowledge " is not true knowledge. I'm here to

shed some light on that fact, so that hopefully some may be saved from this

dangerous delusion. It would seem that you and certain others are not interested

in them hearing the other side of the story. The glaring non-answers to my

serious queries for evidence of any efficacy are embarrasingly (if you have any

shame at all) clear to everyone but the true believers. Those questions are

still not answered. It's because there aren't any good answers. The real reason

is not because it " takes time " . That's a lame excuse. There's been plenty of

time and far too many excuses.

As I wrote to Leo & the whole list:

" Here they are again. I'm just interested in some answers to some simple

questions.

" 1. Which laboratories are you referring to? Names and addresses please.

" 2. When did this take place? Dates please.

" 3. Can you give us even one PubMed, MedLine link to the research?

" Just to make it easy, here's the link:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/databases/freemedl.html

" And here's a fourth question:

" 4. Are you Leo Regehr, Hulda 's brother? "

His silence is deafening. My suspicion that he in fact is Hulda's brother, with

a substantial financial and personal interest in this scam, has not been

lessened. On the contrary. His absence from this aspect of the discussion has

been quite noticeable.

This list is unfortunately no different than many other discussion lists, where

a large percentage of the members are people with various ailments. These lists

are being infiltrated by " members " who are seeking victims to whom they can sell

their products. They are ambulance chasers and exploiters of people in distress.

It's despicable that she, her family and the rest of the official and unofficial

members of the cartel, take advantage of people's unfortunate situation,

desperation and ignorance, playing with their very lives for money, when nothing

is proven. In every conceivable way they fit every definition of the proponents

of quackery I've ever heard of:

They promote unproven methods

They use anecdotes and testimonials to support their claims

They use circular logic to first diagnose an illness and then pronounce the cure

using the same device (the worthless syncrometer).

There is no attempt at blinding of any kind, neither single-blinding nor

double-blinding.

They ensnare people into their camp by filling them with paranoia and

conspiratorial theories

They take money for worthless products, books filled with unproven ideas,

seminars and treatments with no proven merit

They slander and threaten anyone who questions them

AND THEN have the temerity to use faulty logic to try to turn things on their

heads:

Remember: Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Hulda's claims are

certainly extraordinary and completely without legitimate evidence!

They use the same logic revealed (no doubt tongue-in-cheek) in the following

quote:

" Though it is fiction, no scientist has ever been able to prove it wrong. " Jules

Verne

(in " 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea " , regarding the book " Journey to the Center of

the Earth " )

In the case of Hulda and her theories, they are not even logical and break with

all known facts.

The burden of proof is on her and her henchmen to prove what they claim, without

the use of anecdotes & circular reasoning.

Jan, Philip and Leo, among others, are conspicuously silent. They have no

evidence, so they can only come up with non-answers or attempts to change the

subject or focus of attention away from the questions to be answered.

I fear that these people are seriously immune to cognitive dissonance.

WE'RE STILL WAITING FOR ANSWERS!!! Is that really too much to expect? If I buy a

product, I have a right to know what's in it.

What's " in " Hulda's " product " other than BS?

Here's the kind of trouble Hulda has been in and the suffering she's caused:

" In September 1999, was arrested in San Diego, California, based on a

fugitive warrant from Indiana, where she faces charges of practicing medicine

without a license. In November, a former patient filed suit accusing her of

negligence and fraud.

" The criminal case originated when lived and practiced in Indiana [5,6].

In 1993, after a former patient complained to the Indiana attorney general, a

health department official visited accompanied by a deputy attorney general

visited her office and was diagnosed with AIDS and sent to a laboratory for a

blood test [7]. -- apparently tipped off by the lab -- found out she was

being investigated and left Indiana a few days later. In 1999, was

apprehended in California and returned to Indiana to stand trial. However, in

April 2000, an Indiana judge dismissed the charges on grounds that too much time

had elapsed between the filing of the charges and 's arrest. The judge's

verdict did not address the merits of the charges but only the issue of whether

the delay had compromised 's ability to mount a defense [8].

" The civil case was filed by Esther and Figueroa of New York City against

, the Dr. Research Association, Century Nutrition, and several

associated individuals. Mrs. Figueroa, who had been medically diagnosed with

breast cancer, sought treatment in September 1998. The court papers state that

she was told:

Dust from her apartment was responsible for her breast cancer.

Returning to her apartment would place her at special risk to develop

leukemia because of her blood type.

She had asbestos, lead, and a lot of copper in her system.

The Syncrometer detected a parasite called " rabbit fluke " inside her breast.

She also had E. coli, asbestos, and salmonella due to improper food

sterilization.

Several teeth should be removed and " cavitations " in her lower jaw should be

scraped out.

" subsequently arranged for all of Mrs. Figueroa's front and molar teeth to

be removed, prescribed more than 30 dietary and herbal supplements to be taken

during a 12-week period, and badly burned her breast while administering

treatment with a " Zapper " device. During the 3-month period of treatment, the

tumor increased from 1.5 cm to 14 cm. Despite this fact, Mrs. Figueroa was

falsely told that she was getting better, that tests for " cancer markers " were

negative, and that pain she was experiencing did not reflect persistence of her

cancer. "

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/clark.html

Yes, I've quoted Barrett again! Try and refute what he's written. A lot of us

would like to hear some truth from someone on this list for once, instead of the

outright conspiratorial lies spewed forth, such as this piece of trash,

forwarded by " Duncan Crow " , on Oct. 14, 2000:

" A REVELATION ABOUT MODERN MEDICINE IN THE USA

" It has come to light that the FDA and the Pharmaceutical Advertising

Counsel ( " PAC " ), which represents some 35 major drug companies, have

formed and co-funded a corporation under a joint letterhead, calling itself

the National Council Against Health Fraud ( " NCAHF " ). Under this

questionable aegis, Jarvis, MD, and Barrett, MD, and others,

are paid to publicly discredit as unscientific or unknown any or all viable

herbs, vitamins, homeopathic remedies or non-allopathic therapies, particularly

those that are proven to have the most promise and present the greatest

threat to the PAC members. "

Who is the author of this " forwarded " piece of garbage? I'd like to know. Send

me the link.

This contains libel, punishable by law, and is a misrepresentation of the facts:

1. The FDA and PAC have nothing to do with NCAHF.

2. Jarvis, Barrett, et al, are not " paid to publicly discredit as ..... "

3. Any " viable herbs, vitamins, homeopathic remedies or non-allopathic

therapies, ... " would be accepted by them, IF they really were viable.

4. The non-viable products are not a " threat to the PAC members " , since they

don't work, and can even be dangerous. That's one reason why they are

increasingly being called " complementary " (CAM). They are usually used " in

addition to " proven medicine, not instead of, except in certain cases with

tragic outcomes, such as some of the cases which Hulda treats.

CAM should be called SAT:

CAM (Complementary and Alternative Medicine) cannot do what it claims to do, and

is anything but what it claims to be. It claims to be holistic, but in fact

treats specific symptoms using specific therapies. In that sense it is no

different than many accepted forms of treatment for illnesses without cures. It

claims to treat the cause of the disease, but treats the symptoms. It claims to

be without side effects, without proving this to be the case, or for that

matter, being able to prove its claims of effectiveness. It claims to be better

than evidence-based medicine (EBM), but does not produce any proof for this

claim either.

CAM is a misleading, oxymoronic misnomer, consciously or unconsciously created

to give a false impression, get political clout and win undeserved confidence

and respect. Although it lacks convincing proof of efficacy, it seeks to win

acceptance without meeting the usual criteria demanded of EBM for gaining and

deserving the acceptance it seeks.

It is not truly " Complementary " to EBM, but is competitive to it. When

practitioners of so-called " alternative medicine " speak of EBM, they usually do

it derogatorily, thus revealing their true motives. Any talk of cooperation is a

smoke screen for a Trojan horse mentality. They would love nothing better than

to see CAM replace EBM.

It is not " Alternative " to EBM, but is used supplementary to it. Users of CAM

nearly always use it in addition to EBM. And when they don't, they resort to EBM

when all else (CAM) fails.

It is not " Medicine " , but is usually against the practice of medicine. The

opposition is often bitter, outspoken, derogatory and nasty. There can be no

question as to the real intent of the practitioners of CAM and the enormous

industries supporting them: the total eradication/domination of EBM. But just as

long as they can get their fingers in Federal moneys, they'll be quite satisfied

to work alongside EBM.

It would be more correct to use the term SAT (Supplementary and Additional

Therapies) than CAM.

It is " Supplementary " to existing EBM.

It is in " Addition " to existing EBM.

It is many " Therapies " opposed to the use of EBM.

As such it is an unnecessary additional expense and risk.

The important point is that scientific medicine is moving FORWARD and AWAY from

earlier superstition, quackery, etc., while alt. med. is digging in the garbage

heap of what modern science has proven to be ineffective and has discarded. In

fact, alt. med. is often moving BACK TOWARDS the superstitions and ignorance of

earlier times. And all in the name of health freedom. Modern science is trying

to sort out the chaff from the wheat, while alt. med. doesn't seem to care at

all about the question of proof or efficacy.

It's been said that there's more between heaven and earth than meets the eye.

Maybe. But most of it is free fantasy. And when free fantasy gets run through

the alt. med. spinning wheel, it becomes an elaborate, sometimes enticingly

beautiful fabric, which can be sold. It's no longer free. Now fantasy costs! And

since nobody in their right mind would dream of paying for fantasy, their

cognitive dissonance plays them a trick. They excuse themselves for doing

something so dumb, with the rationalization: " It worked for me. That's proof

enough " .

>

> <<

> " Steve Barrett >>

> ......

>

> This man is against all alternative, and doesn't have proof for much of what

> he spews.

He is not against all alternative, just against the exploitation of unproven

methods. He only asks for proof. If the proof were forthcoming, it wouldn't be

" alternative " anymore, but would be accepted by him and the rest of the medical

and scientific community as evidence-based medicine.

Just as in any court of law, logic demands that the original claimee (Hulda)

bears the burden of proof, and that legitimate accusations be dealt with, not

evaded.

> ..........So say what you will but leave out this man...because he

> is a QUACK of the worst kind..............:-(((

>

> Jan

>

This way of using the word " quack " , used often by Tim Bolen, is quite unique to

this list. This use fits with no definiton accepted by reasonable people. Tim

Bolen likes to make things mean just the opposite of what they actually do. He

calls Barrett and others " Quackbusters " in the same breath as he calls them

" quacks " . He is an expert at the art of pathological projection in the

psychiatric sense.

Instead of wishfully trying to make a word mean the opposite of what it does, be

truthful and try to prove that Hulda doesn't fit all the classical

definitions of a quack. Try to prove that she is not worthy of being " busted " by

the " Quackbusters " . IOW, Try to defend her. But since she is indefensible, you

use offense as your only defense. But we won't be fooled by non-answers.

Your opinion of Dr. Barrett is not new to me. Your beef is not with me, but with

" CancerGuide " , from which I happened to quote. What you don't like about him, is

that what he (and a lot of others without connection to him) writes about Hulda

happens to be contrary to your false experience and wishes. But it is true. No

one has refuted it yet. You've all just evaded it. You'd rather shoot the

messenger than heed his warning.

This list is exquisite proof of my saying: " Mankind's capacity for deception and

self-deception knows no limits. "

If what I've said has offended you, my apologies. That is not my intent. I'd

much rather engage in a friendly dialogue, examining the evidence which you

haven't presented yet. But speaking against your views can of course be

considered offensive.....;-)) And I do stand by my sentiments without apology.

Lee, PT

Denmark

PS: Please excuse any grammatical and spelling faults. My English is rusty after

17 years in Denmark, the tax hell of the world.

The Quack-Files - http://www.geocities.com/healthbase

HF List Intro. - http://www.hcrc.org/wwwboard/messages/197.shtml

E-mail - pglee@...

********************************************************************************\

***

" Mankind's capacity for deception and self-deception knows no limits. "

" Mundus vult decipi " (the world wants to be deceived)

" If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. " Reebok ad.

" Manipulation isn't all it's cracked up to be! "

********************************************************************************\

***

[Guest guest]

Re: Polyps found in gallbladder......

> PHEW..............feel better ?

>

> <snip>

>

>

> How much experience have you had with alternative practitioners . Let me

> guess.........NONE.......this is all just your assumptions and opinions.

>

>

> I've been there and done that.............and nearly died...........and

> prayed to die. Until you have.......don't even try to tell me about something

> you know nothing about!!

>

>

> Now it's late and I must get some sleep, as I take care of my parents (in

> their home) on the weekends. They both have alzheimers. It's a very humbling

> experience.

>

> So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

>

> Jan

>

I have experience with them every day. My patients can tell me of the failings

of alt. med. We all know that " conventional " medicine has failings. No one has

ever denied that. The problem is that alt. med. produces no good research

regarding efficacy, in contrast to the constant research proving better and

better efficacy of many conventional medical procedures. Alt. med. only produces

very little poor research and a lot of anecdotes without follow-up.

As far as my personal experiences with alt. med.? My mother died of breast

cancer after following the advice of quacks like Hulda. Diet, fraudulent

electrical devices (Hulda is not the first), etc. That included visits to

Mexican clinics. (I come from LA). My mother-in-law also died from breast cancer

after putting off conventional treatment. First she tried homeopathy, diet, and

shark cartilage, among other things.

In both cases they were a LOT poorer and the cancer was too advanced for even

conventional medicine to help. They might not have been saved anyway, but would

have had a better chance.

No, I just have a different experience than yours. This question is not black

and white. Just don't try to paint all conventional medicine as a conspiracy, or

alt. med. as a cure-all. Hulda's " Cure for ALL Diseases " is just that, the claim

to cure ALL diseases. Its not even logical. No one in their right mind would

believe that their is " one cause, one cure " , except for the likes of D.D.Palmer

and many others, who were definitely NOT in their right minds.

I too have my experiences.

Good-bye for now,

Lee, PT

Denmark

The Quack-Files - http://www.geocities.com/healthbase

HF List Intro. - http://www.hcrc.org/wwwboard/messages/197.shtml

E-mail - pglee@...

********************************************************************************\

***

" Mankind's capacity for deception and self-deception knows no limits. "

" Mundus vult decipi " (the world wants to be deceived)

" If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. " Reebok ad.

" Manipulation isn't all it's cracked up to be! "

********************************************************************************\

***

[Guest guest]

Is anybody else sick of hearing from Lee? I know nobody listens to

him, because we are all here to get help. Better help than the medical

profession can give us. There cure is to slice and dice. I believe God

gave us organs to keep not to cut out.

I just wanted to know that anything I could possibly get from him via

email is automatically thrown out before I can read it. My email is set up

for that.

Thank you all for your information. I appreciate all the wonderful HELP

many of you are extending to everyone on this list.

Re: Polyps found in gallbladder......

>

> Re: Polyps found in gallbladder......

>

>

>> PHEW..............feel better ?

>>

>> <snip>

>>

>>

>> How much experience have you had with alternative practitioners . Let

me

>> guess.........NONE.......this is all just your assumptions and opinions.

>>

>>

>> I've been there and done that.............and nearly died...........and

>> prayed to die. Until you have.......don't even try to tell me about

something

>> you know nothing about!!

>>

>>

>> Now it's late and I must get some sleep, as I take care of my parents (in

>> their home) on the weekends. They both have alzheimers. It's a very

humbling

>> experience.

>>

>> So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

>>

>> Jan

>>

>

>

>I have experience with them every day. My patients can tell me of the

failings of alt. med. We all know that " conventional " medicine has failings.

No one has ever denied that. The problem is that alt. med. produces no good

research regarding efficacy, in contrast to the constant research proving

better and better efficacy of many conventional medical procedures. Alt.

med. only produces very little poor research and a lot of anecdotes without

follow-up.

>

>As far as my personal experiences with alt. med.? My mother died of breast

cancer after following the advice of quacks like Hulda. Diet, fraudulent

electrical devices (Hulda is not the first), etc. That included visits to

Mexican clinics. (I come from LA). My mother-in-law also died from breast

cancer after putting off conventional treatment. First she tried homeopathy,

diet, and shark cartilage, among other things.

>

>In both cases they were a LOT poorer and the cancer was too advanced for

even conventional medicine to help. They might not have been saved anyway,

but would have had a better chance.

>

>No, I just have a different experience than yours. This question is not

black and white. Just don't try to paint all conventional medicine as a

conspiracy, or alt. med. as a cure-all. Hulda's " Cure for ALL Diseases " is

just that, the claim to cure ALL diseases. Its not even logical. No one in

their right mind would believe that their is " one cause, one cure " , except

for the likes of D.D.Palmer and many others, who were definitely NOT in

their right minds.

>

>I too have my experiences.

>

>Good-bye for now,

>

> Lee, PT

>Denmark

>

>The Quack-Files - http://www.geocities.com/healthbase

>HF List Intro. - http://www.hcrc.org/wwwboard/messages/197.shtml

>E-mail - pglee@...

>

>***************************************************************************

********

> " Mankind's capacity for deception and self-deception knows no limits. "

> " Mundus vult decipi " (the world wants to be deceived)

> " If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. " Reebok ad.

> " Manipulation isn't all it's cracked up to be! "

>***************************************************************************

********

>

>

>

>

>Learn more from:

>http://home.online.no/~dusan/

>http://www.geocities.com/~mycleanse/

>http://home.online.no/~huldakli/

>http://www..net/

>http://home.online.no/~dusan/gallstones/

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I just wanted to know that anything I could possibly get from him via

> email is automatically thrown out before I can read it. My email is set up

> for that.

>

> Thank you all for your information. I appreciate all the wonderful HELP

> many of you are extending to everyone on this list.

>

>

Bravo -

I am not afraid of counter opinions when it comes to how I choose to

interact with my health but I sincerely wish that whoever moderates this

group would simply unsubscribe someone like when it's obvious after the

first 2-3 emails that the only reason he's here is to pick fights. - I

don't care if you don't see yourself in this light - please take your

intellectual jousting elsewhere.

Suggestion for the future:

Whenever someone starts to do what is doing, how about EVERYONE just

ignore him. These kinds of people thrive on being contested and if no one

even pays them the slightest attenmtion, they go somewhere else.

Also - lisa has done what I already did too. Just set up a mail rule that

automatically deletes messages when coming from a certain party.

michael

[Guest guest]

I think he asks pertinent questions.

I noticed that Leo never answered whether he was related to Hulda or not.

I'm not on his side, as I am always looking for alternative self-help answers,

but there is no use to burying your head in the sand.

A lot of his questions need answering.

I'm sure Jan is up for it!

Chuck

All I ask of life is a constant and exaggerated sense of my own importance!

On Sun, 15 Oct 2000 10:23:27 -0500, " Green " <LWeebs@...> wrote:

>Is anybody else sick of hearing from Lee? I know nobody listens to

>him, because we are all here to get help. Better help than the medical

>profession can give us. There cure is to slice and dice. I believe God

>gave us organs to keep not to cut out.

[Guest guest]

> Evaluating specific practices and the ideology of the promoters is

> useful. Not every word out of an alt practitioner's mouth is quackery

> and ideology. Discerning which are and which aren't is important.

> Same goes for Dr. Barrett's stuff.

>

> Regards,

> JAL

Yes, how well I know. That's exactly what I did in making my decision to

remove the metal from my mouth. Barrett and the ADA are still claiming that

mercury amalgams are safe. That is totally false. Many people may never have

a problem with them, but once the immune system is weakened they can and do

cause mercury poisoning. This information from Barrett and the ADA is causing

many people to suffer, and I *do* mean suffer. There are tons of evidence

that they are dangerous. There's also plenty of information that removing the

metal is restoring the health of many people.

So my message remains..........if you have a problem that conventional can't

find, CHECK THE TEETH.

Jan

[Guest guest]

> PHEW..............feel better ?

>

> <snip>

>

> > He is not against all alternative

>

>

> Uh huh.........name several that he isn't against.

Jan --

What is unproven may become mainstream conventional with research and

evaluation. But most of the stuff {note, please, this does not

say " all " } being promoted has a history of no, or poor research, or

basic evaluation of the info shows it is impalusible or impossible.

Then there is the stuff which is not really " alt. "

On to your gaunlet:

1. Dr. Barrett is not against all chiropractic manipulation.

2. Research shows that there are reasonable uses of accurate (real,

not pseudo) tests to identify and monitor homocysteine levels WRT

heart disease. There are appropriate supplements recommended to

treat abnormal homocysteine levels which are implicated in increased

risk for myocardial infarction. Niacin is also used in treating

certain types of of heart disease. The research is published. Look

it up.

2. Victor Herbert, who is probably more villified by the alt

community than Dr. Barrett, has for years promoted the use of

additional folic acid for women planning pregnancy to decrease the

incidence of spinal bifida. This is based on good research which has

been published. Look it up.

Dr. Barrett is not against appropriate nutritional supplementation

based on good science.

Eating more fresh vegetables by most people, especially the dark

green and cruciferous ones, has been promoted for years by the

nutrition science community.

These practices are being recognized as " mainstream, " reasonable and

prudent practices.

Evaluating specific practices and the ideology of the promoters is

useful. Not every word out of an alt practitioner's mouth is quackery

and ideology. Discerning which are and which aren't is important.

Same goes for Dr. Barrett's stuff.

Regards,

JAL

[Guest guest]

1. caustics (and a lot of heat!) and not acids are required to saponify

fats. With an acid you can get back soap into fats.

2. Soap actually sinks, does not float on water. Fats do float.

Thus, whatever may be " gallstones " you can flush with the Epsom salts and

olive oil, they definetly are not " soap "

Marco

>

> We already know that the " gallstones " produced after her flushing procedure

> are just saponified fats (*). That's why they float. Real gallstones sink.

> What goes in, does come out! So all those " gallstones " that come out between

> the before and after x-rays are just so much BS! Just like Hulda's theories.

>

> (*) Epsom salts and olive oil saponify into " stones " . You can do your own

> experiment by making soap using vegetable shortening, muriatic (hydrochloric)

> acid, and household lye. In principle the same thing happens.

[Guest guest]

Oh, and most gallstones are not detected by X-rays...

Marco

> From: " Lee " <pglee@...>

> Reply-Dregroups

> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 17:39:39 +0100

> <Dregroups>

> Cc: " Weebs " <LWeebs@...>

> Subject: Re: Polyps found in gallbladder......

>

> This must be done by someone who doesn't believe in Hulda 's claims to

> avoid interpretation bias. And to make it at least a single-blinded test

> (better than nothing, but far from the gold standard), the one taking the

> x-rays should not know that an experiment is going on.

[Guest guest]

Marco,

Are you saying that the pain I experience occasionally are from gallstones

that hadn't shown up on the Xray. The doc said I didn't have any

gallstones, but polyps instead. Most people don't have symptoms of anything

with just polyps. I take it that only the BIG ones show up on an Xray.

Debra,

I also am scheduled for a Hidascan, but am going to postpone it. Actually,

I would like to have a recheck down the road after following Hulda's advice,

and see if the polyps could be gone. I know there isn't any hurry, since

the doc said the polyps were small. Good luck to you.

[Guest guest]

Me too! I pitch Lee stuff w/o reading.

I just received my zapper, Beck silver pulser, ozonator, and magnetic pulser.

I'm not getting help from the doctors, so I am finally taking my health in my

own hands. I do have to live with it afterall. I have RA/Lyme since 1990. I

did notice results right away with the Beck silver pulser. Anyone know of a

good source for a Rife machine too?

<< Is anybody else sick of hearing from Lee? I know nobody listens to

him, because we are all here to get help. Better help than the medical

profession can give us. There cure is to slice and dice. I believe God

gave us organs to keep not to cut out.

I just wanted to know that anything I could possibly get from him via

email is automatically thrown out before I can read it. My email is set up

for that.

Thank you all for your information. I appreciate all the wonderful HELP

many of you are extending to everyone on this list.

>>

[Guest guest]

Re: Polyps found in gallbladder......

> 1. caustics (and a lot of heat!) and not acids are required to saponify

> fats. With an acid you can get back soap into fats.

>

> 2. Soap actually sinks, does not float on water. Fats do float.

>

> Thus, whatever may be " gallstones " you can flush with the Epsom salts and

> olive oil, they definetly are not " soap "

>

> Marco

>

>

> >

> > We already know that the " gallstones " produced after her flushing procedure

> > are just saponified fats (*). That's why they float. Real gallstones sink.

> > What goes in, does come out! So all those " gallstones " that come out between

> > the before and after x-rays are just so much BS! Just like Hulda's theories.

> >

> > (*) Epsom salts and olive oil saponify into " stones " . You can do your own

> > experiment by making soap using vegetable shortening, muriatic

(hydrochloric)

> > acid, and household lye. In principle the same thing happens.

>

1. I wrote " in principle " , not exactly. It was just an illustration. To make the

illustration " stand on all four legs " , follow Hulda's procedure and see what you

get: fat that floats. Real gallstones sink.

2. So you're right about fats: they do float, just like the so-called gallstones

produced by Hulda's flushing procedure. They are made up of fat that floats.

You're caught up in circular reasoning that only proves me right. You actually

admit it and can't see it.

Where have I said that they are soap? Read more carefully next time. See my

point 1.

*************

From your next mail. I may as well answer it here:

> Oh, and most gallstones are not detected by X-rays...

>

> Marco

Again, read more carefully. Here's what I wrote:

> Hi ,

>There are several things you should know. Real gallstones are

> visible on x-rays and ultrasound. If the operator of the ultrasound

> is very inept, extreeeeeemely small stones could get overseen,

> but I really doubt it. Which brings up the most simple way to

> prove or disprove (not that that interests most true believers)

> Hulda Regehr 's claims regarding the flushing of gallstones:

> take an x-ray before and after.

Very small stones can be overseen. It is not impossible. Although very small

stones usually don't cause many symptoms, there are cases where they can give

problems. It's not a black and white question.

There is still no question about this: these saponified fat " gallstones "

(produced by Hulda's procedure) float, whereas real gallstones sink. Period.

The unnaturally large volume of these so-called " gallstones " , produced in some

cases by the hundreds, no matter how many times, or how long you continue to do

her flushing procedure, can't be the real thing. Their volume is in direct

relation to the amount of olive oil & epsom salts consumed. What goes in Does

come out! Try saving them and see how many kilos you can produce in a year. The

body just can't produce real gallstones that fast! I'd like to see PubMed

references that show that it can happen!

Lee, PT

Denmark

The Quack-Files - http://www.geocities.com/healthbase

E-mail - pglee@...

********************************************************************************\

***

" Mankind's capacity for deception and self-deception knows no limits. "

" Mundus vult decipi " (the world wants to be deceived)

" If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. " Reebok ad.

" Manipulation isn't all it's cracked up to be! "

********************************************************************************\

***

[Guest guest]

There are frequency devices as well as a ton of info here:

http://web.idirect.com/~showcase/althealth/

and Bob Beck papers and lectures here:

http://healthalternative.freeyellow.com/bobbeck.htm#P02PAGE12

That ought to keep you going for a couple of days!

Chuck

Of course I despise money when I haven't got any.

It's the only dignified thing to do.

On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:15:24 EDT, Sjlane99@... wrote:

>I just received my zapper, Beck silver pulser, ozonator, and magnetic pulser.

>I'm not getting help from the doctors, so I am finally taking my health in my

>own hands. I do have to live with it afterall. I have RA/Lyme since 1990. I

>did notice results right away with the Beck silver pulser. Anyone know of a

>good source for a Rife machine too?

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I was just answering , I cannot tell what is the business with you. Most

gallstones are *not* detected by x-rays, the x-rays need calcified

gallstones for resulting in the test.

Maybe you will look for what Hulda writes about GI polyps (that is, GI

tumors).

Best,

marco

> From: " Green " <LWeebs@...>

> Reply-Dregroups

> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 16:02:33 -0500

> <Dregroups>

> Subject: Re: Polyps found in gallbladder......

>

> Marco,

>

> Are you saying that the pain I experience occasionally are from gallstones

> that hadn't shown up on the Xray. The doc said I didn't have any

> gallstones, but polyps instead. Most people don't have symptoms of anything

> with just polyps. I take it that only the BIG ones show up on an Xray.

>

> Debra,

>

> I also am scheduled for a Hidascan, but am going to postpone it. Actually,

> I would like to have a recheck down the road after following Hulda's advice,

> and see if the polyps could be gone. I know there isn't any hurry, since

> the doc said the polyps were small. Good luck to you.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Learn more from:

> http://home.online.no/~dusan/

> http://www.geocities.com/~mycleanse/

> http://home.online.no/~huldakli/

> http://www..net/

> http://home.online.no/~dusan/gallstones/

>

>

[Guest guest]

You need not to be right always, you may relax, all is OK!

you wrote:

" There is still no question about this: these saponified fat " gallstones "

(produced by Hulda's procedure) float, whereas real gallstones sink.

Period. "

" saponified fats (...) float " does mean " soap floats " , since " saponified

fats " *are* " soap " .

I am aware too of the heavy and hard gallstones they pull out of your

gallbladder, but that does *not* mean that soft and light ones cannot occur

too.

Maybe the soft ones are an intermediate stadium of the genesis of the heavy

ones, who knows?

maybe you are right: they are not " gallstones " but should be called

" liverstones " instead.

Again: if you can make in a bottle those round green floating things with

bile, muriatic acid, water, olive oil, epsom salts and grapefruit juice, you

will be able to tell exactly what they are. If you cannot, you can't be sure

they are *not* what Hulda says they are.

I am not trying to show you are wrong, I am interested in understanding the

facts. We have a fact that challenges our intellect: what are those floating

unidentified objects. HC says they are gallstones. We cannot answer they are

soap (because soap cannot stay in water in solid form for long and does not

float). If they are of fatty nature, as you suggest, maybe they are

cholesterol, as HC says.

best,

marco

> From: " Lee " <pglee@...>

> Reply-Dregroups

> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 03:06:14 +0100

> <Dregroups>

> Subject: Re: Polyps found in gallbladder......

>

> 2. So you're right about fats: they do float, just like the so-called

> gallstones produced by Hulda's flushing procedure. They are made up of fat

> that floats. You're caught up in circular reasoning that only proves me right.

> You actually admit it and can't see it.

>

> Where have I said that they are soap? Read more carefully next time. See my

> point 1.

[Guest guest]

>

> " There is still no question about this: these saponified

fat " gallstones "

> (produced by Hulda's procedure) float, whereas real gallstones sink.

> Period. "

>

> " saponified fats (...) float " does mean " soap floats " ,

since " saponified

> fats " *are* " soap " .

>

> I am aware too of the heavy and hard gallstones they pull out of

your

> gallbladder, but that does *not* mean that soft and light ones

cannot occur

> too.

>

> Maybe the soft ones are an intermediate stadium of the genesis of

the heavy

> ones, who knows?

Well, SOMEONE knows ... and since all over the United States,

Canada, ... and as a matter of fact, the rest of the world, people

are daily doing autopsies and taking anatomy classes which involve

dissecting cadavers, it would be startling if you were the only ones

who find these, right?

Isn't there anyone on this list who wonders why **nobody who is

familiar with the inside of the human body on a daily basis has ever

seen these things?** If you look in any of a hundred anatomy texts

you will find no written description or photographs of these things

which you see by the hundreds.

Why?

It is a creation of the solution of stuff you swallow to supposedly

dislodge these suckers. This is a rational, fairly easy to

understand, and *highly* likely possibility.

Why is this so hard to grasp? Because if this goes, maybe that would

mean there are other things Dr. may not be right about?

Repeat Point: For the thousands of " stones " you document within this

small group of people here, why do the folks who make a living

looking inside living and dead bodies never see them?

New idea.

JAL

[Guest guest]

....I've never done a flush, but why do people get relief from their painful

symptoms, if these are not gall stones?

Also, why -when a person does a series of flushes, are there less and less

'stones' each time and then finally none?

curious,

Jynene

[Guest guest]

I am happy to report that Timbull is much better. He was quite full of bull stuff and needed a good cleanin out.

Some of you foks are wonderin why you feel bettr after flushing out. Well maybe you are like Timbull. I was readin the label on the laxative stuff at the drugstore and it has got magnesum in it, I think. So maybe that is what does it.

If you keep doin laxativ stuff you end up with nothin so maybe that's why those soapy things is gone. I got one of them coloscope things a bit back and I was dry as a bone for a day or so after my cleanin stuff. boy was my bum sore.

Tri

[Guest guest]

>

> " There is still no question about this: these saponified

>fat " gallstones " (produced by Hulda's procedure) float, whereas real

>gallstones sink.

> Period. "

>

> " saponified fats (...) float " does mean " soap floats " ,

>since " saponified fats " *are* " soap " .

>

>I am aware too of the heavy and hard gallstones they pull out of your

>gallbladder, but that does *not* mean that soft and light ones

>cannot occur too.

>

>Maybe the soft ones are an intermediate stadium of the genesis of

>the heavy ones, who knows?

I don't know either, but there is a simple way to find out. Why not

take them to an independent laboratory and have them analyzed? Any

good laboratory analysis should be able to tell you if they are

gallstones. That would resolve the issue, once and for all, would it

not? I know it's a big hassle to go and have that done, but when

you're dealing with your one and only body, isn't it worth it to know

for sure?

Pignotti