Guest guest Posted September 13, 2008 Report Share Posted September 13, 2008 Philosophy is good, data is better Dr g Sent from my iPhone On Sep 11, 2008, at 12:36 PM, jwwright <jwwright@...> wrote: > Pardon me for confusing CR with the LEF org. Before I get flamed by > either. > I believe more in the CR philosophy for life extension which is > simply eating less food. Some do more than that. > > LEF deals with a lot of supplements and as far as I know they are > good quality supplements. I like to read their articles but I peruse > many more before following any " health " pundits. > > Regards > > Re: Calcium supplement? > > The name Life Extension Foundation makes me nervous. > > What sort of long term trials do they have that their stuff does > extend life? > > CE Grim MD > > On Sep 10, 2008, at 11:12 PM, Steve wrote: > > > 4000 IU of D3 per day brought me up to 33 ng/mL. I now take 7000 IU/ > > day > > and get a blood level of 63 ng/mL summer and winter. The lab > reference > > range is 32-100 ng/mL but who knows what it would be in the tropics > > among healthy hunter gathers. > > > > I get some calcium in a multivitamin put out by the Life Extension > > Foundation, otherwise I don't take any supplemental calcium. My > blood > > level of calcium remain relatively unchanged regardless of if I > > supplement with calcium or not. > > > > Steve > > > > Valarie wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi , > > > > > > Dave on this list often posted that calcium acts like salt in a > > PA's body. > > > Others have mentioned that calcium increases aldosterone. I don't > > believe > > > we've seen any credible studies on the issue. > > > > > > I've been taking 1,000 IU of Vitamin D for several months. My > > Vitamin D > > > came up from 23.4 to 25.6 ng/mL - still way too low. > > > > > > Val > > > > > > From: hyperaldosteronism > > > <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40> > > > [mailto:hyperaldosteronism > > > <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>] On Behalf Of em5704 > > > I'm confused about whether taking calcium supplements are > harmful or > > > not in PA. I've been taking a run of the mill calcium/Vit D > > combination > > > supplement, 1000 mg daily with 800 IU of Vitamin D. When last > > measured, > > > my blood calcium was normal. (I also take 100 mg of spiro daily.) > > > Should people with PA take or not take calcium? I'm a 51-year old > > woman > > > and there is osteoporosis in my family. Thanks, Em > > > > > -- > > > > Steve - dudescholar4@... > > > > Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at > > http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html > > > > " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march > > to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford > > > > > > May your pressure be low! > >  > > CE Grim BS, MS, MD > > High Blood Pressure Consulting > > Clinical Professor of Internal Medicine Medical and Cardiology > Medical College of Wisconsin > > Board certified in Internal Med, Geriatrics and Hypertension. > > Interests: > 1. Difficult to control high blood pressure. > 2. The effect of recent evolutionary forces on high blood pressure > in human populations. > 3. Improving blood pressure measruement in the office and home. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2008 Report Share Posted September 13, 2008 Interesting you say that. Since I've been taking 1,000 IU of Vitamin D3, my calcium has risen up into the 10's. Having suffered high calcium for years and hyperparathyroidism, that got my attention. I will continue to watch it. Val From: hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of jwwright There's indications that vit D has many hormonal properties, but that doesn't mean to me I should start taking a lot more Vit D, especially D3. Not until there is good experience. I want more than a serum level increase when I take more D3 - I want all the other hormones documented the changes, apoptosis, eg, MEASURED. That they cannot do at our level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2008 Report Share Posted September 13, 2008 CR is an experiment. They won't have human data for many years. And then only the ones doing the experiment. That will be confounded by the fact that the number of centenarians is growing. Regards Re: Calcium supplement? > > Very little. Mainly mice/rat/elegans experiments. > The part that makes me nervous is some folks insist on reducing > their weight to what I would call extremes. > I'm comfortable that a " normal " BMI is good for me. I base that on > the fact I did not start CR in childhood. > > Best advice, IMO, is follow what your Dr says. > > What a person can do is get the book by Dr Pearson, read it and try > to find a suggestion in there that is still relevant. > We still must rely on basic medicine for cures/treatment. > > Look at www.livingto100.com and evaluate your expected lifespan. > Also realize the number of centenarians is growing and analysis of > foods/supplements does not give any good reasons. > > Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2008 Report Share Posted September 13, 2008 I had that too, several years ago. Slightly over limit. The Dr immediately thought I might have cancer since that's an indicator. At the same time my PSA was high. I was concerned. I had gone in 2 weeks before the appointment to get the blood test, so she retested the Ca that day, because it's often in error. The Ca was back down. Later, I reduced my Ca supplements. Now I'm sure a lot of variation occurs in blood tests because of our medications - BP meds alter the fluid. That means I'm often dehydrated. On alternate 6 mo tests for PSA, I see a lower reading, because the annual tests are fasted. In May this year, a new Dr did a metabolic panel and the lab quoted I was < 60 for calculated GFR. I took it to my Urologist because I thought it was a urinary problem. It was a misinterpretation of the calculated GFR - not intended for people > 70. And I said you mean the lab doesn't consider my age that is written right on the page to avoid making a silly error? " No, that's the role of the Dr to interpret the results. I can tell you were dehydrated by looking at albumin and urea, etc. I'll rerun the test and specify the right conditions. " Results " mild decline " . I went home and found a better GFR calc from BMJ. Applying that to the data back to 1992, I found I was < 60 then (and I haven't died in 16 yrs). It went up to 80, when I changed diets and reduced meds. But it too assumes I fit a standard profile which has large variances. Maybe I'm one of the points ABOVE the curve? I agree we must be proactive but I'm losing a lot of confidence in the blood tests. Regards RE: Calcium supplement? Interesting you say that. Since I've been taking 1,000 IU of Vitamin D3, my calcium has risen up into the 10's. Having suffered high calcium for years and hyperparathyroidism, that got my attention. I will continue to watch it. Val From: hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of jwwright There's indications that vit D has many hormonal properties, but that doesn't mean to me I should start taking a lot more Vit D, especially D3. Not until there is good experience. I want more than a serum level increase when I take more D3 - I want all the other hormones documented the changes, apoptosis, eg, MEASURED. That they cannot do at our level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2008 Report Share Posted September 13, 2008 Not really an experiment of quality as there is no randomized control group Sent from my iPhone On Sep 13, 2008, at 12:52 PM, jwwright <jwwright@...> wrote: > CR is an experiment. They won't have human data for many years. > And then only the ones doing the experiment. > That will be confounded by the fact that the number of centenarians is > growing. > > Regards > > Re: Calcium supplement? > > > > Very little. Mainly mice/rat/elegans experiments. > > The part that makes me nervous is some folks insist on reducing > > their weight to what I would call extremes. > > I'm comfortable that a " normal " BMI is good for me. I base that on > > the fact I did not start CR in childhood. > > > > Best advice, IMO, is follow what your Dr says. > > > > What a person can do is get the book by Dr Pearson, read it and try > > to find a suggestion in there that is still relevant. > > We still must rely on basic medicine for cures/treatment. > > > > Look at www.livingto100.com and evaluate your expected lifespan. > > Also realize the number of centenarians is growing and analysis of > > foods/supplements does not give any good reasons. > > > > Regards. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2008 Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 That's true. The ad-libbers must suffice. Just for kicks, how many of the CRONies would have to live to say 120, recognizing that there will be by 2035 (when I'm 100), a S/L of centenarians? There is another centi in my area this year. A city of maybe 23,000 now has at least 3 centi's. Two of them have been married 81 yrs. I'll bet they did not do CR, at least not by choice, probably ate what my neighbors eat, chicken and dumplins. The last of the surviving olders on my block is 87 yo and mean enough to tell salesmen and seekers what for. She's had HTN for many years, medicated for at least 18 yrs. Recently, she started losing weight, so she is less obese. She doesn't drink or smoke. But she's almost Gayelord Hauser's age http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gayelord_Hauser and I doubt she ever ate black strap molasses and wheat germ bread. Regards Re: Calcium supplement? > > > > Very little. Mainly mice/rat/elegans experiments. > > The part that makes me nervous is some folks insist on reducing > > their weight to what I would call extremes. > > I'm comfortable that a " normal " BMI is good for me. I base that on > > the fact I did not start CR in childhood. > > > > Best advice, IMO, is follow what your Dr says. > > > > What a person can do is get the book by Dr Pearson, read it and try > > to find a suggestion in there that is still relevant. > > We still must rely on basic medicine for cures/treatment. > > > > Look at www.livingto100.com and evaluate your expected lifespan. > > Also realize the number of centenarians is growing and analysis of > > foods/supplements does not give any good reasons. > > > > Regards. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2008 Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 All measurements have errors random and systematic The first we can't contol Sent from my iPhone On Sep 13, 2008, at 3:09 PM, jwwright <jwwright@...> wrote: > I had that too, several years ago. Slightly over limit. The Dr > immediately > thought I might have cancer since that's an indicator. At the same > time my > PSA was high. > I was concerned. > > I had gone in 2 weeks before the appointment to get the blood test, > so she > retested the Ca that day, because it's often in error. The Ca was > back down. > Later, I reduced my Ca supplements. > > Now I'm sure a lot of variation occurs in blood tests because of our > medications - BP meds alter the fluid. That means I'm often > dehydrated. On > alternate 6 mo tests for PSA, I see a lower reading, because the > annual > tests are fasted. > > In May this year, a new Dr did a metabolic panel and the lab quoted > I was < > 60 for calculated GFR. > I took it to my Urologist because I thought it was a urinary > problem. It was > a misinterpretation of the calculated GFR - not intended for people > > 70. > And I said you mean the lab doesn't consider my age that is written > right on > the page to avoid making a silly error? > " No, that's the role of the Dr to interpret the results. I can tell > you were > dehydrated by looking at albumin and urea, etc. I'll rerun the test > and > specify the right conditions. " Results " mild decline " . > > I went home and found a better GFR calc from BMJ. Applying that to > the data > back to 1992, I found I was < 60 then (and I haven't died in 16 > yrs). It > went up to 80, when I changed diets and reduced meds. > But it too assumes I fit a standard profile which has large > variances. Maybe > I'm one of the points ABOVE the curve? > > I agree we must be proactive but I'm losing a lot of confidence in > the blood > tests. > > Regards > > RE: Calcium supplement? > > Interesting you say that. Since I've been taking 1,000 IU of Vitamin > D3, my > calcium has risen up into the 10's. Having suffered high calcium for > years > and hyperparathyroidism, that got my attention. I will continue to > watch > it. > > Val > > From: hyperaldosteronism > [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of jwwright > > There's indications that vit D has many hormonal properties, but that > doesn't mean to me I should start taking a lot more Vit D, > especially D3. > Not until there is good experience. > I want more than a serum level increase when I take more D3 - I want > all the > other hormones documented the changes, apoptosis, eg, MEASURED. > That they cannot do at our level. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 I found this interesting even though one must wear a fur coat when reading. Every time I've tried to take a tiny dose of T3 thyroid (with my T4), I feel very well for a while and then start retaining water terribly and BP shoots up. Each time (since 2002), the effect has been worse and I've remained unwell for a longer period. I have to assume that the T3 was causing more Na retention. Now that I'm on ultra-low sodium and spiro and have normal K, I'm trying it again with only 1.12 mcg T3. Will see how it goes. Val Title Potassium deficiency enhances the effect of thyroid hormone on NaK-ATPase in liver and kidney. Author Shishiba Y; Ozawa Y; Takaishi M; Eguchi N; Shimizu T Source Endocrinol Jpn, 27(3):329-36 1980 Jun Abstract In order to examine the possibility that the changes in electrolytes in tissue alter the effect of thyroid hormone on NaK-ATPase, rats were fed either synthetic K-deficient diet or synthetic K-normal diet. K-deficient diet induced a reduction in K content in serum or kidney, while that of the liver remained unchanged. When a daily dose of 2.5 micrograms T3 was administered for 7 days to k-deficient rats, both Mg- and NaK-ATPase of the homogenate of liver and kidney were elevated, while the same dose failed to influence those enzymes in K-normal rats. Furthermore, T3 dose increased the Na content of liver and kidney in K-deficient rats, resulting in a significant decrease in the K/Na ratio in those tissue. Based on the estimation from chloride space, the decrease in K/Na was deemed to have occurred mainly in the intracellular space. As the levels of serum thyroid hormone and liver T3 were not influenced by K-deficiency, the effect of K depletion is likely to be mediated not through the alteration in thyroid hormone kinetics, but through some other mechanism such as the elevation of intracellular Na. The present study demonstrates that K deficiency may sensitize NaK-ATPase to the effect of thyroid hormone. Val Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 Would be good to follow up with new study testing aldo-high salt induced low k Sent from my iPhone On Sep 18, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Valarie <val@...> wrote: > I found this interesting even though one must wear a fur coat when > reading. > Every time I've tried to take a tiny dose of T3 thyroid (with my > T4), I feel > very well for a while and then start retaining water terribly and BP > shoots > up. Each time (since 2002), the effect has been worse and I've > remained > unwell for a longer period. I have to assume that the T3 was causing > more > Na retention. Now that I'm on ultra-low sodium and spiro and have > normal K, > I'm trying it again with only 1.12 mcg T3. Will see how it goes. > > Val > > Title > Potassium deficiency enhances the effect of thyroid hormone on NaK- > ATPase in > liver and kidney. > Author > Shishiba Y; Ozawa Y; Takaishi M; Eguchi N; Shimizu T > Source > Endocrinol Jpn, 27(3):329-36 1980 Jun > Abstract > In order to examine the possibility that the changes in electrolytes > in > tissue alter the effect of thyroid hormone on NaK-ATPase, rats were > fed > either synthetic K-deficient diet or synthetic K-normal diet. K- > deficient > diet induced a reduction in K content in serum or kidney, while that > of the > liver remained unchanged. When a daily dose of 2.5 micrograms T3 was > administered for 7 days to k-deficient rats, both Mg- and NaK-ATPase > of the > homogenate of liver and kidney were elevated, while the same dose > failed to > influence those enzymes in K-normal rats. Furthermore, T3 dose > increased the > Na content of liver and kidney in K-deficient rats, resulting in a > significant decrease in the K/Na ratio in those tissue. Based on the > estimation from chloride space, the decrease in K/Na was deemed to > have > occurred mainly in the intracellular space. As the levels of serum > thyroid > hormone and liver T3 were not influenced by K-deficiency, the effect > of K > depletion is likely to be mediated not through the alteration in > thyroid > hormone kinetics, but through some other mechanism such as the > elevation of > intracellular Na. The present study demonstrates that K deficiency may > sensitize NaK-ATPase to the effect of thyroid hormone. > Val > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 Don't understand what you're saying. Val From: hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Lowerbp2 Would be good to follow up with new study testing aldo-high salt induced low k Sent from my iPhone On Sep 18, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Valarie <val@... <mailto:val%40wyosip.com> > wrote: > I found this interesting even though one must wear a fur coat when > reading. > Every time I've tried to take a tiny dose of T3 thyroid (with my > T4), I feel > very well for a while and then start retaining water terribly and BP > shoots > up. Each time (since 2002), the effect has been worse and I've > remained > unwell for a longer period. I have to assume that the T3 was causing > more > Na retention. Now that I'm on ultra-low sodium and spiro and have > normal K, > I'm trying it again with only 1.12 mcg T3. Will see how it goes. > > Val > > Title > Potassium deficiency enhances the effect of thyroid hormone on NaK- > ATPase in > liver and kidney. > Author > Shishiba Y; Ozawa Y; Takaishi M; Eguchi N; Shimizu T > Source > Endocrinol Jpn, 27(3):329-36 1980 Jun > Abstract > In order to examine the possibility that the changes in electrolytes > in > tissue alter the effect of thyroid hormone on NaK-ATPase, rats were > fed > either synthetic K-deficient diet or synthetic K-normal diet. K- > deficient > diet induced a reduction in K content in serum or kidney, while that > of the > liver remained unchanged. When a daily dose of 2.5 micrograms T3 was > administered for 7 days to k-deficient rats, both Mg- and NaK-ATPase > of the > homogenate of liver and kidney were elevated, while the same dose > failed to > influence those enzymes in K-normal rats. Furthermore, T3 dose > increased the > Na content of liver and kidney in K-deficient rats, resulting in a > significant decrease in the K/Na ratio in those tissue. Based on the > estimation from chloride space, the decrease in K/Na was deemed to > have > occurred mainly in the intracellular space. As the levels of serum > thyroid > hormone and liver T3 were not influenced by K-deficiency, the effect > of K > depletion is likely to be mediated not through the alteration in > thyroid > hormone kinetics, but through some other mechanism such as the > elevation of > intracellular Na. The present study demonstrates that K deficiency may > sensitize NaK-ATPase to the effect of thyroid hormone. > Val > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 Low k diet studies lower also so don't likely Reflect what goes on in PA =hi also and high salt Sent from my iPhone On Sep 18, 2008, at 9:00 PM, Valarie <val@...> wrote: > Don't understand what you're saying. > > Val > > From: hyperaldosteronism > [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Lowerbp2 > > Would be good to follow up with new study testing aldo-high salt > induced low k > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 18, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Valarie <val@... > <mailto:val%40wyosip.com> > wrote: > > > I found this interesting even though one must wear a fur coat when > > reading. > > Every time I've tried to take a tiny dose of T3 thyroid (with my > > T4), I feel > > very well for a while and then start retaining water terribly and BP > > shoots > > up. Each time (since 2002), the effect has been worse and I've > > remained > > unwell for a longer period. I have to assume that the T3 was causing > > more > > Na retention. Now that I'm on ultra-low sodium and spiro and have > > normal K, > > I'm trying it again with only 1.12 mcg T3. Will see how it goes. > > > > Val > > > > Title > > Potassium deficiency enhances the effect of thyroid hormone on NaK- > > ATPase in > > liver and kidney. > > Author > > Shishiba Y; Ozawa Y; Takaishi M; Eguchi N; Shimizu T > > Source > > Endocrinol Jpn, 27(3):329-36 1980 Jun > > Abstract > > In order to examine the possibility that the changes in electrolytes > > in > > tissue alter the effect of thyroid hormone on NaK-ATPase, rats were > > fed > > either synthetic K-deficient diet or synthetic K-normal diet. K- > > deficient > > diet induced a reduction in K content in serum or kidney, while that > > of the > > liver remained unchanged. When a daily dose of 2.5 micrograms T3 was > > administered for 7 days to k-deficient rats, both Mg- and NaK-ATPase > > of the > > homogenate of liver and kidney were elevated, while the same dose > > failed to > > influence those enzymes in K-normal rats. Furthermore, T3 dose > > increased the > > Na content of liver and kidney in K-deficient rats, resulting in a > > significant decrease in the K/Na ratio in those tissue. Based on the > > estimation from chloride space, the decrease in K/Na was deemed to > > have > > occurred mainly in the intracellular space. As the levels of serum > > thyroid > > hormone and liver T3 were not influenced by K-deficiency, the effect > > of K > > depletion is likely to be mediated not through the alteration in > > thyroid > > hormone kinetics, but through some other mechanism such as the > > elevation of > > intracellular Na. The present study demonstrates that K deficiency > may > > sensitize NaK-ATPase to the effect of thyroid hormone. > > Val > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 Ohhh, that would be interesting! I'm quite convinced at this point, that T3 thyroid lowers my K and that's what causes the swelling and increased BP. Now that I am " innoculated " with spiro, I'm trying it again. I'm taking 1/8 grain of Armour thyroid. That has just a tiny touch of T3 in it. I'm feeling pretty well right now but had a bad week last week after eating 1,500 mg Na for two days. Val From: hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Lowerbp2 Low k diet studies lower also so don't likely Reflect what goes on in PA =hi also and high salt Sent from my iPhone > From: hyperaldosteronism <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40> > [mailto:hyperaldosteronism <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40> ] On Behalf Of Lowerbp2 > > Would be good to follow up with new study testing aldo-high salt > induced low k > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 18, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Valarie <val@... <mailto:val%40wyosip.com> > <mailto:val%40wyosip.com> > wrote: > > > I found this interesting even though one must wear a fur coat when > > reading. > > Every time I've tried to take a tiny dose of T3 thyroid (with my > > T4), I feel > > very well for a while and then start retaining water terribly and BP > > shoots > > up. Each time (since 2002), the effect has been worse and I've > > remained > > unwell for a longer period. I have to assume that the T3 was causing > > more > > Na retention. Now that I'm on ultra-low sodium and spiro and have > > normal K, > > I'm trying it again with only 1.12 mcg T3. Will see how it goes. > > > > Val > > > > Title > > Potassium deficiency enhances the effect of thyroid hormone on NaK- > > ATPase in > > liver and kidney. > > Author > > Shishiba Y; Ozawa Y; Takaishi M; Eguchi N; Shimizu T > > Source > > Endocrinol Jpn, 27(3):329-36 1980 Jun > > Abstract > > In order to examine the possibility that the changes in electrolytes > > in > > tissue alter the effect of thyroid hormone on NaK-ATPase, rats were > > fed > > either synthetic K-deficient diet or synthetic K-normal diet. K- > > deficient > > diet induced a reduction in K content in serum or kidney, while that > > of the > > liver remained unchanged. When a daily dose of 2.5 micrograms T3 was > > administered for 7 days to k-deficient rats, both Mg- and NaK-ATPase > > of the > > homogenate of liver and kidney were elevated, while the same dose > > failed to > > influence those enzymes in K-normal rats. Furthermore, T3 dose > > increased the > > Na content of liver and kidney in K-deficient rats, resulting in a > > significant decrease in the K/Na ratio in those tissue. Based on the > > estimation from chloride space, the decrease in K/Na was deemed to > > have > > occurred mainly in the intracellular space. As the levels of serum > > thyroid > > hormone and liver T3 were not influenced by K-deficiency, the effect > > of K > > depletion is likely to be mediated not through the alteration in > > thyroid > > hormone kinetics, but through some other mechanism such as the > > elevation of > > intracellular Na. The present study demonstrates that K deficiency > may > > sensitize NaK-ATPase to the effect of thyroid hormone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 I think that says: Low k diet studies lower {ALDOsterone} so don't likely Reflect what goes on in PA = hi {ALDOsterone} and high salt ?? Regards Re: Calcium supplement? Low k diet studies lower also so don't likely Reflect what goes on in PA =hi also and high salt Sent from my iPhone On Sep 18, 2008, at 9:00 PM, Valarie <val@...> wrote: > Don't understand what you're saying. > > Val > > From: hyperaldosteronism > [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Lowerbp2 > > Would be good to follow up with new study testing aldo-high salt > induced low k > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 18, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Valarie <val@... > <mailto:val%40wyosip.com> > wrote: > > > I found this interesting even though one must wear a fur coat when > > reading. > > Every time I've tried to take a tiny dose of T3 thyroid (with my > > T4), I feel > > very well for a while and then start retaining water terribly and BP > > shoots > > up. Each time (since 2002), the effect has been worse and I've > > remained > > unwell for a longer period. I have to assume that the T3 was causing > > more > > Na retention. Now that I'm on ultra-low sodium and spiro and have > > normal K, > > I'm trying it again with only 1.12 mcg T3. Will see how it goes. > > > > Val > > > > Title > > Potassium deficiency enhances the effect of thyroid hormone on NaK- > > ATPase in > > liver and kidney. > > Author > > Shishiba Y; Ozawa Y; Takaishi M; Eguchi N; Shimizu T > > Source > > Endocrinol Jpn, 27(3):329-36 1980 Jun > > Abstract > > In order to examine the possibility that the changes in electrolytes > > in > > tissue alter the effect of thyroid hormone on NaK-ATPase, rats were > > fed > > either synthetic K-deficient diet or synthetic K-normal diet. K- > > deficient > > diet induced a reduction in K content in serum or kidney, while that > > of the > > liver remained unchanged. When a daily dose of 2.5 micrograms T3 was > > administered for 7 days to k-deficient rats, both Mg- and NaK-ATPase > > of the > > homogenate of liver and kidney were elevated, while the same dose > > failed to > > influence those enzymes in K-normal rats. Furthermore, T3 dose > > increased the > > Na content of liver and kidney in K-deficient rats, resulting in a > > significant decrease in the K/Na ratio in those tissue. Based on the > > estimation from chloride space, the decrease in K/Na was deemed to > > have > > occurred mainly in the intracellular space. As the levels of serum > > thyroid > > hormone and liver T3 were not influenced by K-deficiency, the effect > > of K > > depletion is likely to be mediated not through the alteration in > > thyroid > > hormone kinetics, but through some other mechanism such as the > > elevation of > > intracellular Na. The present study demonstrates that K deficiency > may > > sensitize NaK-ATPase to the effect of thyroid hormone. > > Val Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 ! Sent from my iPhone On Sep 19, 2008, at 8:40 AM, jwwright <jwwright@...> wrote: > I think that says: > > Low k diet studies lower {ALDOsterone} so don't likely > Reflect what goes on in PA = hi {ALDOsterone} and high salt > ?? > Regards > > Re: Calcium supplement? > > Low k diet studies lower also so don't likely > Reflect what goes on in PA =hi also and high salt > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 18, 2008, at 9:00 PM, Valarie <val@...> wrote: > > > Don't understand what you're saying. > > > > Val > > > > From: hyperaldosteronism > > [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Lowerbp2 > > > > Would be good to follow up with new study testing aldo-high salt > > induced low k > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Sep 18, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Valarie <val@... > > <mailto:val%40wyosip.com> > wrote: > > > > > I found this interesting even though one must wear a fur coat when > > > reading. > > > Every time I've tried to take a tiny dose of T3 thyroid (with my > > > T4), I feel > > > very well for a while and then start retaining water terribly > and BP > > > shoots > > > up. Each time (since 2002), the effect has been worse and I've > > > remained > > > unwell for a longer period. I have to assume that the T3 was > causing > > > more > > > Na retention. Now that I'm on ultra-low sodium and spiro and have > > > normal K, > > > I'm trying it again with only 1.12 mcg T3. Will see how it goes. > > > > > > Val > > > > > > Title > > > Potassium deficiency enhances the effect of thyroid hormone on > NaK- > > > ATPase in > > > liver and kidney. > > > Author > > > Shishiba Y; Ozawa Y; Takaishi M; Eguchi N; Shimizu T > > > Source > > > Endocrinol Jpn, 27(3):329-36 1980 Jun > > > Abstract > > > In order to examine the possibility that the changes in > electrolytes > > > in > > > tissue alter the effect of thyroid hormone on NaK-ATPase, rats > were > > > fed > > > either synthetic K-deficient diet or synthetic K-normal diet. K- > > > deficient > > > diet induced a reduction in K content in serum or kidney, while > that > > > of the > > > liver remained unchanged. When a daily dose of 2.5 micrograms T3 > was > > > administered for 7 days to k-deficient rats, both Mg- and NaK- > ATPase > > > of the > > > homogenate of liver and kidney were elevated, while the same dose > > > failed to > > > influence those enzymes in K-normal rats. Furthermore, T3 dose > > > increased the > > > Na content of liver and kidney in K-deficient rats, resulting in a > > > significant decrease in the K/Na ratio in those tissue. Based on > the > > > estimation from chloride space, the decrease in K/Na was deemed to > > > have > > > occurred mainly in the intracellular space. As the levels of serum > > > thyroid > > > hormone and liver T3 were not influenced by K-deficiency, the > effect > > > of K > > > depletion is likely to be mediated not through the alteration in > > > thyroid > > > hormone kinetics, but through some other mechanism such as the > > > elevation of > > > intracellular Na. The present study demonstrates that K deficiency > > may > > > sensitize NaK-ATPase to the effect of thyroid hormone. > > > Val > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 hi question re: this statement in the study: " When a daily dose of 2.5 micrograms T3 was administered for 7 days to k-deficient rats, both Mg- and NaK-ATPase of the homogenate of liver and kidney were elevated, while the same dose failed to influence those enzymes in K-normal rats. " what is it saying ? that if a hypothyroid rat is also low in body (vs blood) potassium, it elevates MG and NaK ATPase levels to try to Compensate ? would that be a bad or good stop-gap/ fix in the long run? (thyroid supposedly directly affects all ATPase and if low thyroid one will -generally- have worse ATPase production, and less energy and health,, right? and why don't they mention CA-ATPase? how is that affected? -- i have hashis,longterm lowt3 levels, and only slightly high aldosterone and renin and my Pre-existing ankle swelling (ptting edema) got worse when i first started adding armour to looongterm t4-only thyroid meds. i believe my body's (extracellulalr vs intracellular ratios and levels of the Electrolytes) have not been balanced for the length of time i was left hypothyroid/low t3. i think evening ankle swelling/ pitting edema and also the morning foot pain and achilles tendon tightness is related to this electrolyte " imbalance " btw, the only abnormal electrolyte blood test i have ever had was NA being only a couple of points low (repeatedly year after year) (potassium was always in lower 1/3 too ) now on all-armour they are both in upper 1/2 of Normal range. and my muscles hurt less -Carol > > I found this interesting even though one must wear a fur coat when reading. > Every time I've tried to take a tiny dose of T3 thyroid (with my T4), I feel > very well for a while and then start retaining water terribly and BP shoots > up. Each time (since 2002), the effect has been worse and I've remained > unwell for a longer period. I have to assume that the T3 was causing more > Na retention. Now that I'm on ultra-low sodium and spiro and have normal K, > I'm trying it again with only 1.12 mcg T3. Will see how it goes. > > Val > > Title > Potassium deficiency enhances the effect of thyroid hormone on NaK- ATPase in > liver and kidney. > Author > Shishiba Y; Ozawa Y; Takaishi M; Eguchi N; Shimizu T > Source > Endocrinol Jpn, 27(3):329-36 1980 Jun > Abstract > In order to examine the possibility that the changes in electrolytes in > tissue alter the effect of thyroid hormone on NaK-ATPase, rats were fed > either synthetic K-deficient diet or synthetic K-normal diet. K- deficient > diet induced a reduction in K content in serum or kidney, while that of the > liver remained unchanged. When a daily dose of 2.5 micrograms T3 was > administered for 7 days to k-deficient rats, both Mg- and NaK- ATPase of the > homogenate of liver and kidney were elevated, while the same dose failed to > influence those enzymes in K-normal rats. Furthermore, T3 dose increased the > Na content of liver and kidney in K-deficient rats, resulting in a > significant decrease in the K/Na ratio in those tissue. Based on the > estimation from chloride space, the decrease in K/Na was deemed to have > occurred mainly in the intracellular space. As the levels of serum thyroid > hormone and liver T3 were not influenced by K-deficiency, the effect of K > depletion is likely to be mediated not through the alteration in thyroid > hormone kinetics, but through some other mechanism such as the elevation of > intracellular Na. The present study demonstrates that K deficiency may > sensitize NaK-ATPase to the effect of thyroid hormone. > Val > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 Swelling means you are eating too much salt Don't know about rats only treat the ultimate experimental Animal home sapiens Cegmd Sent from my iPhone On Sep 24, 2008, at 3:28 PM, ms_sisyphus_00 <ms_sisyphus_00@...> wrote: > hi > question re: this statement in the study: > " > When a daily dose of 2.5 micrograms T3 was administered for 7 days to > k-deficient rats, both Mg- and NaK-ATPase of the homogenate of liver > and kidney were elevated, while the same dose failed to influence > those enzymes in K-normal rats. > " > > what is it saying ? that if a hypothyroid rat is also low in body (vs > blood) potassium, it elevates MG and NaK ATPase levels to try to > Compensate ? > would that be a bad or good stop-gap/ fix in the long run? > (thyroid supposedly directly affects all ATPase and if low thyroid > one will -generally- have worse ATPase production, and less energy > and health,, right? > > and why don't they mention CA-ATPase? how is that affected? > > -- > i have hashis,longterm lowt3 levels, and only slightly high > aldosterone and renin > > and my Pre-existing ankle swelling (ptting edema) got worse when i > first started adding armour to looongterm t4-only thyroid meds. > > i believe my body's (extracellulalr vs intracellular ratios and > levels of the Electrolytes) have not been balanced for the length of > time i was left hypothyroid/low t3. i think evening ankle swelling/ > pitting edema and also the morning foot pain and achilles tendon > tightness is related to this electrolyte " imbalance " > > btw, the only abnormal electrolyte blood test i have ever had was NA > being only a couple of points low (repeatedly year after year) > (potassium was always in lower 1/3 too ) > > now on all-armour they are both in upper 1/2 of Normal range. > and my muscles hurt less > > -Carol > > > > > > I found this interesting even though one must wear a fur coat when > reading. > > Every time I've tried to take a tiny dose of T3 thyroid (with my > T4), I feel > > very well for a while and then start retaining water terribly and > BP shoots > > up. Each time (since 2002), the effect has been worse and I've > remained > > unwell for a longer period. I have to assume that the T3 was > causing more > > Na retention. Now that I'm on ultra-low sodium and spiro and have > normal K, > > I'm trying it again with only 1.12 mcg T3. Will see how it goes. > > > > Val > > > > Title > > Potassium deficiency enhances the effect of thyroid hormone on NaK- > ATPase in > > liver and kidney. > > Author > > Shishiba Y; Ozawa Y; Takaishi M; Eguchi N; Shimizu T > > Source > > Endocrinol Jpn, 27(3):329-36 1980 Jun > > Abstract > > In order to examine the possibility that the changes in > electrolytes in > > tissue alter the effect of thyroid hormone on NaK-ATPase, rats were > fed > > either synthetic K-deficient diet or synthetic K-normal diet. K- > deficient > > diet induced a reduction in K content in serum or kidney, while > that of the > > liver remained unchanged. When a daily dose of 2.5 micrograms T3 was > > administered for 7 days to k-deficient rats, both Mg- and NaK- > ATPase of the > > homogenate of liver and kidney were elevated, while the same dose > failed to > > influence those enzymes in K-normal rats. Furthermore, T3 dose > increased the > > Na content of liver and kidney in K-deficient rats, resulting in a > > significant decrease in the K/Na ratio in those tissue. Based on the > > estimation from chloride space, the decrease in K/Na was deemed to > have > > occurred mainly in the intracellular space. As the levels of serum > thyroid > > hormone and liver T3 were not influenced by K-deficiency, the > effect of K > > depletion is likely to be mediated not through the alteration in > thyroid > > hormone kinetics, but through some other mechanism such as the > elevation of > > intracellular Na. The present study demonstrates that K deficiency > may > > sensitize NaK-ATPase to the effect of thyroid hormone. > > Val > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 i don't think i was eating too much salt. in fact i eat more (sea) salt nowadays, not less. and my swelling/ pitting edema has improved so much. so has my once slightly-high blood pressure.. before they were all the time, now its when i have " stress " . there is something significant going on related to proper thyroid levels, the adrenals and the electrolytes and *where the electrolytes are . IE) proper placement (intra and extracellular) as well as ofcourse proper levels and ratios (na to k etc ca to mg) i have read some alternative drs say that hypot/adrenal types have a problem with calcium " handling " .. that instead of going into our bones and teeth,, it goes ON our soft tissues,, (tendonitis, arthereoschlerosis, and even more tartar on teeth and white bumps on skin and Cataracts.) - the Research cited below interested my because old Dr Gerson noted that his cancer patients were very sensitive to iodine and armour until he put them on a No-salt and extremely high Potassium diet/supplement nutrition plan. NOT saying anyone should do that diet or take high-potassium- concoctions he made. just saying its very interesting he noted the sensitivity to iodine and armour went away, once they had done his high potassium/no salt diet for a short period of time. -Carol my BP normalized all the time (and no postural hypOtension), ankles swelling, feeling of thirst all Became Normal, when i was taking a supplement that is used to LOwer cortisol. phosphatydilserine. the scores in my teeth also filled in, and i no longer had foot/ankle/achilles tendon pain and tightness. how nice! and my Eye Floaters went away! yes i get my eyes tested every year since a child) and already ahve a brother with cataracts (and mother) however the PS did make me startle awake every morning ! what a rotton trade off. > > > > > > I found this interesting even though one must wear a fur coat when > > reading. > > > Every time I've tried to take a tiny dose of T3 thyroid (with my > > T4), I feel > > > very well for a while and then start retaining water terribly and > > BP shoots > > > up. Each time (since 2002), the effect has been worse and I've > > remained > > > unwell for a longer period. I have to assume that the T3 was > > causing more > > > Na retention. Now that I'm on ultra-low sodium and spiro and have > > normal K, > > > I'm trying it again with only 1.12 mcg T3. Will see how it goes. > > > > > > Val > > > > > > Title > > > Potassium deficiency enhances the effect of thyroid hormone on NaK- > > ATPase in > > > liver and kidney. > > > Author > > > Shishiba Y; Ozawa Y; Takaishi M; Eguchi N; Shimizu T > > > Source > > > Endocrinol Jpn, 27(3):329-36 1980 Jun > > > Abstract > > > In order to examine the possibility that the changes in > > electrolytes in > > > tissue alter the effect of thyroid hormone on NaK-ATPase, rats were > > fed > > > either synthetic K-deficient diet or synthetic K-normal diet. K- > > deficient > > > diet induced a reduction in K content in serum or kidney, while > > that of the > > > liver remained unchanged. When a daily dose of 2.5 micrograms T3 was > > > administered for 7 days to k-deficient rats, both Mg- and NaK- > > ATPase of the > > > homogenate of liver and kidney were elevated, while the same dose > > failed to > > > influence those enzymes in K-normal rats. Furthermore, T3 dose > > increased the > > > Na content of liver and kidney in K-deficient rats, resulting in a > > > significant decrease in the K/Na ratio in those tissue. Based on the > > > estimation from chloride space, the decrease in K/Na was deemed to > > have > > > occurred mainly in the intracellular space. As the levels of serum > > thyroid > > > hormone and liver T3 were not influenced by K-deficiency, the > > effect of K > > > depletion is likely to be mediated not through the alteration in > > thyroid > > > hormone kinetics, but through some other mechanism such as the > > elevation of > > > intracellular Na. The present study demonstrates that K deficiency > > may > > > sensitize NaK-ATPase to the effect of thyroid hormone. > > > Val > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 Sea salt is real salt just as swelling Read then label on everything u eat for a week and tell us how many my of Na u get per day U want less than 1500 mg Na per day to get rid of swelling and htn Sent from my iPhone On Sep 24, 2008, at 6:31 PM, ms_sisyphus_00 <ms_sisyphus_00@...> wrote: > i don't think i was eating too much salt. in fact i eat more (sea) > salt nowadays, not less. > and my swelling/ pitting edema has improved so much. > so has my once slightly-high blood pressure.. > before they were all the time, now its when i have " stress " . > > there is something significant going on related to proper thyroid > levels, the adrenals and the electrolytes and *where the electrolytes > are . IE) proper placement (intra and extracellular) as well as > ofcourse proper levels and ratios (na to k etc ca to mg) > > i have read some alternative drs say that hypot/adrenal types have a > problem with calcium " handling " .. that instead of going into our > bones and teeth,, it goes ON our soft tissues,, (tendonitis, > arthereoschlerosis, and even more tartar on teeth and white bumps on > skin and Cataracts.) > > - > the Research cited below interested my because old Dr Gerson noted > that his cancer patients were very sensitive to iodine and armour > until he put them on a No-salt and extremely high Potassium > diet/supplement nutrition plan. > > NOT saying anyone should do that diet or take high-potassium- > concoctions he made. > > just saying its very interesting he noted the sensitivity to iodine > and armour went away, once they had done his high potassium/no salt > diet for a short period of time. > > -Carol > > my BP normalized all the time (and no postural hypOtension), ankles > swelling, feeling of thirst all Became Normal, when i was taking a > supplement that is used to LOwer cortisol. phosphatydilserine. > > the scores in my teeth also filled in, and i no longer had > foot/ankle/achilles tendon pain and tightness. how nice! > and my Eye Floaters went away! yes i get my eyes tested every year > since a child) and already ahve a brother with cataracts (and mother) > > however the PS did make me startle awake every morning ! > > what a rotton trade off. > > > > > > > > > > I found this interesting even though one must wear a fur coat > when > > > reading. > > > > Every time I've tried to take a tiny dose of T3 thyroid (with my > > > T4), I feel > > > > very well for a while and then start retaining water terribly > and > > > BP shoots > > > > up. Each time (since 2002), the effect has been worse and I've > > > remained > > > > unwell for a longer period. I have to assume that the T3 was > > > causing more > > > > Na retention. Now that I'm on ultra-low sodium and spiro and > have > > > normal K, > > > > I'm trying it again with only 1.12 mcg T3. Will see how it goes. > > > > > > > > Val > > > > > > > > Title > > > > Potassium deficiency enhances the effect of thyroid hormone on > NaK- > > > ATPase in > > > > liver and kidney. > > > > Author > > > > Shishiba Y; Ozawa Y; Takaishi M; Eguchi N; Shimizu T > > > > Source > > > > Endocrinol Jpn, 27(3):329-36 1980 Jun > > > > Abstract > > > > In order to examine the possibility that the changes in > > > electrolytes in > > > > tissue alter the effect of thyroid hormone on NaK-ATPase, rats > were > > > fed > > > > either synthetic K-deficient diet or synthetic K-normal diet. K- > > > deficient > > > > diet induced a reduction in K content in serum or kidney, while > > > that of the > > > > liver remained unchanged. When a daily dose of 2.5 micrograms > T3 was > > > > administered for 7 days to k-deficient rats, both Mg- and NaK- > > > ATPase of the > > > > homogenate of liver and kidney were elevated, while the same > dose > > > failed to > > > > influence those enzymes in K-normal rats. Furthermore, T3 dose > > > increased the > > > > Na content of liver and kidney in K-deficient rats, resulting > in a > > > > significant decrease in the K/Na ratio in those tissue. Based > on the > > > > estimation from chloride space, the decrease in K/Na was deemed > to > > > have > > > > occurred mainly in the intracellular space. As the levels of > serum > > > thyroid > > > > hormone and liver T3 were not influenced by K-deficiency, the > > > effect of K > > > > depletion is likely to be mediated not through the alteration in > > > thyroid > > > > hormone kinetics, but through some other mechanism such as the > > > elevation of > > > > intracellular Na. The present study demonstrates that K > deficiency > > > may > > > > sensitize NaK-ATPase to the effect of thyroid hormone. > > > > Val > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Carol, I can't answer your questions but continue to be intrigued. There is some relationship between T3 and aldosterone. Here is an article that might interest you, but please put your fur coat on to read it. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=424149 <http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=424149 & blobtype=pdf> & blobtype=pdf Val From: hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of ms_sisyphus_00 hi question re: this statement in the study: " When a daily dose of 2.5 micrograms T3 was administered for 7 days to k-deficient rats, both Mg- and NaK-ATPase of the homogenate of liver and kidney were elevated, while the same dose failed to influence those enzymes in K-normal rats. " what is it saying ? that if a hypothyroid rat is also low in body (vs blood) potassium, it elevates MG and NaK ATPase levels to try to Compensate ? would that be a bad or good stop-gap/ fix in the long run? (thyroid supposedly directly affects all ATPase and if low thyroid one will -generally- have worse ATPase production, and less energy and health,, right? and why don't they mention CA-ATPase? how is that affected? -- i have hashis,longterm lowt3 levels, and only slightly high aldosterone and renin and my Pre-existing ankle swelling (ptting edema) got worse when i first started adding armour to looongterm t4-only thyroid meds. i believe my body's (extracellulalr vs intracellular ratios and levels of the Electrolytes) have not been balanced for the length of time i was left hypothyroid/low t3. i think evening ankle swelling/ pitting edema and also the morning foot pain and achilles tendon tightness is related to this electrolyte " imbalance " btw, the only abnormal electrolyte blood test i have ever had was NA being only a couple of points low (repeatedly year after year) (potassium was always in lower 1/3 too ) now on all-armour they are both in upper 1/2 of Normal range. and my muscles hurt less -Carol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2008 Report Share Posted October 3, 2008 I am wondering if anyone has a good calcium supplement. I drinking bone broth and trying to cook more with it as well as eating some good calcium-containing foods (minus dairy), but I know it is not enough for me! (And I know I definitely need a bigger stock pot!) When I was nursing and had dairy out of my system, I began to have problems that led me to realize I was certainly experiencing some bone decalcification. Once I added the raw dairy back in, the problems went away and even my nails became stronger. So, I definitely need to find something and I’m just wondering if anyone has already done the research and found one? As for my frustration over the weekend, I should have been slower to speak in my response to the group. It is an awkward thing for me to feel analyzed in front of a group anyway, so I confess that I am certainly more sensitive because I find it to be a bit of an uncomfortable forum in the first place. I am used to asking questions concerning my son’s health, but I am not used to dealing with questions concerning myself! I do appreciate your responses and I will try to get used to the open forum, though if a topic is more sensitive for me I’ll just ask up front that you answer off-line. Thank you for being understanding! Traci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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