Vaccine Debate

[Guest guest]

" A hundred years from now, it will not matter what my bank-account was, the

sort of house I lived in, or the make of car I drove. But the world may be

different, because I was important in the life of a child. "

-Author Unknown

[Guest guest]

This annoys them no end http://www.whale.to/vaccine/point.html

and you can post some nasty adverse reactions from here

http://www.whale.to/vaccines/hepatitis.html

For a vaccine that doesn't prevent didly squat.

Risk MS or death incase your CHILD mainlines on sex or drugs

john

Vaccine Debate

I just hate those computer crashes that lose all that wonderful information I

save up just for these little debates. Unfortunately, I've had another crash

and I am in a debate on a message board over the Hep B vaccine. The lady

does not want to accept Belkin's testimoney before congress because

he's obviously a distraught father and refuses to accept any info from NVIC

because of their " anti-vaccine agenda " . She's giving me all these " peer

reviewed " papers from JAMA.

Does anyone have any of those articles about the pharmaceutical companies

paying ghost writers and what not? Or the people on the vaccine commitees

who have ties to the pharmaceutical companies? I would try searching the

archives but that's usually an excercise in frustration for me. only

wants to give me results from the past two weeks. Arrrrrghhhh!!!

[Guest guest]

Many, if not most, of them are on my website. Just use the search

engine. Also, look in the recommended list for " conflict of interest " .

Although it's not very up-to-date, there's a lot there.

Sandy from Alaska

http://www.vaccinationnews.com

http://www.whale.to

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

http://www.909shot.com

http://www.redflagsweekly.com

http://www.thinktwice.com

http://home.san.rr.com/via/

http://www.vaccine-info.com

ALL INFORMATION, DATA, AND MATERIAL CONTAINED, PRESENTED, OR PROVIDED

HERE IS FOR GENERAL INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT TO BE CONSTRUED

AS REFLECTING THE KNOWLEDGE OR OPINIONS OF THE PUBLISHER, AND IS NOT TO

BE CONSTRUED OR INTENDED AS PROVIDING MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE

DECISION WHETHER OR NOT TO VACCINATE IS AN IMPORTANT AND COMPLEX ISSUE

AND SHOULD BE MADE BY YOU, AND YOU ALONE, IN CONSULTATION WITH YOUR

HEALTH CARE PROVIDER.

Vaccine Debate

I just hate those computer crashes that lose all that wonderful

information I

save up just for these little debates. Unfortunately, I've had another

crash

and I am in a debate on a message board over the Hep B vaccine. The

lady

does not want to accept Belkin's testimoney before congress

because

he's obviously a distraught father and refuses to accept any info from

NVIC

because of their " anti-vaccine agenda " . She's giving me all these " peer

reviewed " papers from JAMA.

Does anyone have any of those articles about the pharmaceutical

companies

paying ghost writers and what not? Or the people on the vaccine

commitees

who have ties to the pharmaceutical companies? I would try searching

the

archives but that's usually an excercise in frustration for me.

only

wants to give me results from the past two weeks. Arrrrrghhhh!!!

[Guest guest]

you should find a lot of info on searching sandy's and

john's and sheri's websites.

http://www.vaccinationnews.com and

http://whale.to

hth,

claudia

--- wolfkty@... wrote:

> I just hate those computer crashes that lose all

> that wonderful information I

> save up just for these little debates.

> Unfortunately, I've had another crash

> and I am in a debate on a message board over the Hep

> B vaccine. The lady

> does not want to accept Belkin's testimoney

> before congress because

> he's obviously a distraught father and refuses to

> accept any info from NVIC

> because of their " anti-vaccine agenda " . She's

> giving me all these " peer

> reviewed " papers from JAMA.

>

> Does anyone have any of those articles about the

> pharmaceutical companies

> paying ghost writers and what not? Or the people on

> the vaccine commitees

> who have ties to the pharmaceutical companies? I

> would try searching the

> archives but that's usually an excercise in

> frustration for me. only

> wants to give me results from the past two weeks.

> Arrrrrghhhh!!!

>

>

>

=====

http://www.iven.org.uk

deutschsprachige impfkritikliste:

impfkritik_deutsch/

East Dorset Home Education: http://www.he-ed.org.uk

" The function of a civil resister is to provoke response. And we will continue

to provoke until they respond. They are not in control. We are. " (Mahatma

Gandhi)

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

<A HREF= " http://www.theforgotten.com/vaccines/collusion.htm " >Click here:

Collusion</A> This is for you

[Guest guest]

thank you!!! brilliant job.

:-)

claudia

--- lovthatlea@... wrote:

> <A

>

HREF= " http://www.theforgotten.com/vaccines/collusion.htm " >Click

> here: Collusion</A> This is for you

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

=====

http://www.iven.org.uk

deutschsprachige impfkritikliste:

impfkritik_deutsch/

East Dorset Home Education: http://www.he-ed.org.uk

" The function of a civil resister is to provoke response. And we will continue

to provoke until they respond. They are not in control. We are. " (Mahatma

Gandhi)

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

,

This was recently posted on this list. It specifically talks about conflict

of interest in JAMA papers.

One of the worlds medical journals has put itself and it's

>competitors under the microscope with research showing that published

>studies are sometimes misleading and frequently fail to mention weaknesses.

>Full article:

>http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/06/04/medical.journals.ap/index.html

>

>

>From: wolfkty@...

>Reply-Vaccinations

>Vaccinations

>Subject: Vaccine Debate

>Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:48:35 EDT

>

>>

>Does anyone have any of those articles about the pharmaceutical companies

>paying ghost writers and what not? Or the people on the vaccine commitees

>who have ties to the pharmaceutical companies?

_________________________________________________________________

Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the help guys. Here is the I was answering. I'll go dig up my

answer in a minute.

<<No problem. Will Belkin's testimony before congress do?

<A HREF= " http://66.70.140.217/vaccines/belkin.html " >MICHAEL BELKIN testimony</A>

Here is a press release from NVIC that's rather enlightening.

<A HREF= " http://909shot.com/PressReleases/prhepb012799.htm " >NVIC Press

Release</A> >>

Unfortunately, Wolf, neither of those citations will " do " . Mr. Belkin is

dealing with the loss of a daughter, and whether he intends it to or not,

that is going to bias his testimony. While it is gratifying to see that he

appears to have done some solid research on the subject (though I wish he

would have been a bit more organized in his source citations), there is no

way for the reader to determine the manner in which his own emotional

involvement

in the subject has impacted his research methodology. Did his own daughter's

death and his decision that it was related to the vaccine (something he

supports with no specific citations to academic sources, disturbingly enough)

impact his selection of source material? Did it predispose him, even

unconsciously, to select evidence that would support his case over evidence

that would refute it? What impact does his own lack of epidemiological

training

have on his interpretation of the evidence? Did his analysis of the

statistical data account for the presence of asymptomatic carriers of Hep B

or for the under-reporting of cases (something that is often a chronic

problem in public health)? No where in his testimony are these questions

answered, and that is a major problem.

The second site is worse than useless. Data gleaned from an organization

with the agenda of promoting non-vaccination? How can anyone expect that to

be accepted as an unbiased source?

A citation from a peer-reviewed journal would be far more compelling and far

more likely to effectively make your case. And peer-reviewed information and

articles regarding Hepatitis B vaccination practices aren't that hard to find

(though from what I've found so far, they don't appear to support either your

or Mr. Belkin's claims). Here are a few things I turned up in just a few

minutes of searching.

<A HREF= " http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v285n12/ffull/jwr0328-1.html " >Impact of

the 1999 AAP/USPHS Joint Statement ...</A>

This is particularly interesting, as it reveals a potential weakness in Mr.

Belkin's case. If his daughter's death was caused by a Hep B vaccine, it

would have, because of the date when it occured, been caused by a vaccine

which is no longer in use, a vaccine containing the preservative thimerasol.

If you'll note, the article details the medical community's recommendation,

which seems to have been followed by birthing hospitals, that infant

vaccination be suspended until a thimerasol-free vaccine was available. (It

has been for a few years now.) The data on re-implementation of infant

vaccination is far more disturbing, especially given the current lack of

effective methodology for screening high-risk infants.

Here are some more articles that may be of interest.

<A HREF= " http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v284n8/abs/joc00272.html " >Association

Between Administration of Hepatit...</A>

Unfortunately, I was only able to pull up an abstract of this article, though

if you look at the upper-left hand corner of the screen, you'll note that the

volume and issue number are provided, so if there's a library near you, it

should be pretty easy to find the full text (I can't think of any library

that wouldn't carry JAMA).

I think the implications of the conclusion are clear, especially when

considered in conjunction with the inherent protections offered by herd

immunity to those who cannot, either for medical (e.g. allergies) or

religious reasons, be vaccinated.

<A HREF= " http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/issues/v153n12/abs/poa9078.html " >Neonatal

Deaths After Hepatitis B Vaccine: Th...</A>

Again, this is just the abstract rather than the full article (I would access

the full text, but as I'm not a subscriber to this particular database, I

don't have extensive full-text access rights.) In any case, the volume and

issue numbers are provided, and while a public library might not keep copies

of the Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine, a University library

certainly would. This article is one that I would particularly

urge you to read, as it directly refutes Mr. Belkin and NVIC's claims of a

causal correlation between infant administration of the Hepatitis B vaccine

and an increase in neo-natal deaths.

<A HREF= " http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v282n1/ffull/jmn0707-3.html " >Debate

Revived on Hepatitis B Vaccine Value</A>

This links to the full-text of a piece in JAMA. Again, it directly refutes

Mr. Belkin, and interestingly enough, directly discusses the hearings in

which he testified, citing his testimony directly, as well as citing the

testimony of a parent whose child was infected with Hepatitis B (testimony

that I note you didn't bother to include).

If you'd like, I can keep going. There is a plethora of material available

via just this one database.

<<I will not go on my informed choice rant. I will not go on my informed

choice rant. I will not.....ah, hell you get the picture. <g>>>

Informed choice in medical care is of critical importance, but that choice

must include information from both sides of the debate. One also must ask

oneself, at what point does my informed choice become a violation of someone

else's rights? Do I have a right to put someone else's health at risk to

save myself some worry?

[Guest guest]

And here was my answer. It was late and I was tired...but hopefully I didn't

do too badly....unfortunately, everything I have posted is from before the

thimerasol removal. She is now saying that it's a moot point. I've got to

dig up more recent info. <sigh>

è Unfortunately, Wolf, neither of those citations will " do " .

Alrighty then, how about a molecular biologist?

<A HREF= " http://www.house.gov/reform/cj/hearings/99.5.18/Dunbar.htm " >Dunbar

Testimony</A>

Here is testimony from a Dr.

<A HREF= " http://www.house.gov/reform/cj/hearings/99.5.18/Waisbren.htm " >Waisbren

Testimony</A>

Another Dr.

<A HREF= " http://66.70.140.217/m/incao.html " >Incao testimony re hepatitis b

vaccination</A>

And a nurse <A HREF= " http://66.70.140.217/vaccines/fluck.html " >Testimony of

Betty D Fluck (Hepatitis B vaccine)</A>

The second site is worse than useless. Data gleaned from an organization

with the agenda of promoting non-vaccination? How can anyone expect that to

be accepted as an unbiased source?

I'm as likely to accept their conclusions as anything in JAMA.

<A

HREF= " http://www.guardian.co.uk/medicine/story/0,11381,646078,00.html " >Guardian

Unlimited | Special reports | Scientists take money for ghostwritten

papers</A>

<A

HREF= " http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v284n17/ffull/jed00080.html#r18 " >Conflict

of Interest and the Public Trust</A>

<A

HREF= " http://www.vaccinationnews.com/DailyNews/February2002/StudyClinicaGuideslT\

iesInd.htm " >Study Says Clinical Guides Often Hide Ties of Doctors</A>

<A HREF= " http://www.redflagsweekly.com/nasspubhlth.html " >Meryl Nass, MD - WHO'S

PROTECTING PUBLIC HEALTH?</A>

<A

HREF= " http://www.transnationale.org/anglais/forums/sante__influence_profits/show\

message.asp?messageID=378 " >The tightening grip of big pharma</A>

This links to the full-text of a piece in JAMA. Again, it directly refutes

Mr. Belkin, and interestingly enough, directly discusses the hearings in

which he testified, citing his testimony directly, as well as citing the

testimony of a parent whose child was infected with Hepatitis B (testimony

that I note you didn't bother to include).

I have now included testimony from sources you might find more believable.

And perhaps I " didn't bother " to include this mother's testimony because I

didn't see it. Even linking directly to the House website, you'll find her

name listed but not her testimony.

<A HREF= " http://www.vaccinationnews.com/Scandals/March_29_02/Scandal10.htm " >Home

page</A>

Here is my answer to the stats they list. I'm sure you'll object to her as

an unbiased source as well but Regush and RedFlagsWeekly.com think

highly enough of her and this article to link it from their website.

Informed choice in medical care is of critical importance, but that choice

must include information from both sides of the debate.

Exactly, but most people aren't exposed to the downside of vaccination. So,

I pipe up every now and then to show people that there can be a downside.

What they do with the information is up to them.

One also must ask oneself, at what point does my informed choice become a

violation of someone else's rights? Do I have a right to put someone else's

health at risk to save myself some worry?

If the vaccines work then how is a non-vaccinated person putting you at risk?

And do others have the right to force vaccination on me and my children to

save themselves some worry?

<A HREF= " http://66.70.140.217/vaccines/topp2.html " >Our families story about the

devastating effects of the Hepatitis B vaccine

law June 1999</A>

I'm sure I can list just as many personal stories of vaccine damage as you

can peer reviewed articles. Of course, yours will carry more weight than the

hysterical ramblings of the distraught parents of injured children or of

injured adults themselves. But you see, there have never been any long term,

independent, double blind studies done on any vaccine. There have been no

studies comparing non-vaccinated to vaccinated children. Until this is

done, it's left to each of us to draw our own conclusions.

[Guest guest]

go laura!!! good job!

:-)

claudia

--- wolfkty@... wrote:

> And here was my answer. It was late and I was

> tired...but hopefully I didn't

> do too badly....unfortunately, everything I have

> posted is from before the

> thimerasol removal. She is now saying that it's a

> moot point. I've got to

> dig up more recent info. <sigh>

>

>

> è Unfortunately, Wolf, neither of those citations

> will " do " .

>

> Alrighty then, how about a molecular biologist?

> <A

>

HREF= " http://www.house.gov/reform/cj/hearings/99.5.18/Dunbar.htm " >Dunbar

> Testimony</A>

>

> Here is testimony from a Dr.

> <A

>

HREF= " http://www.house.gov/reform/cj/hearings/99.5.18/Waisbren.htm " >Waisbren

> Testimony</A>

>

> Another Dr.

> <A HREF= " http://66.70.140.217/m/incao.html " >Incao

> testimony re hepatitis b vaccination</A>

>

> And a nurse <A

>

HREF= " http://66.70.140.217/vaccines/fluck.html " >Testimony

> of Betty D Fluck (Hepatitis B vaccine)</A>

>

>

> The second site is worse than useless. Data gleaned

> from an organization

> with the agenda of promoting non-vaccination? How

> can anyone expect that to

> be accepted as an unbiased source?

>

> I'm as likely to accept their conclusions as

> anything in JAMA.

> <A

>

HREF= " http://www.guardian.co.uk/medicine/story/0,11381,646078,00.html " >Guardian

> Unlimited | Special reports | Scientists take money

> for ghostwritten

> papers</A>

> <A

>

HREF= " http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v284n17/ffull/jed00080.html#r18 " >Conflict

> of Interest and the Public Trust</A>

> <A

>

HREF= " http://www.vaccinationnews.com/DailyNews/February2002/StudyClinicaGuideslT\

iesInd.htm " >Study

> Says Clinical Guides Often Hide Ties of Doctors</A>

>

> <A

>

HREF= " http://www.redflagsweekly.com/nasspubhlth.html " >Meryl

> Nass, MD - WHO'S PROTECTING PUBLIC HEALTH?</A>

>

> <A

>

HREF= " http://www.transnationale.org/anglais/forums/sante__influence_profits/show\

message.asp?messageID=378 " >The

> tightening grip of big pharma</A>

>

> This links to the full-text of a piece in JAMA.

> Again, it directly refutes

> Mr. Belkin, and interestingly enough, directly

> discusses the hearings in

> which he testified, citing his testimony directly,

> as well as citing the

> testimony of a parent whose child was infected with

> Hepatitis B (testimony

> that I note you didn't bother to include).

>

> I have now included testimony from sources you might

> find more believable.

> And perhaps I " didn't bother " to include this

> mother's testimony because I

> didn't see it. Even linking directly to the House

> website, you'll find her

> name listed but not her testimony.

>

> <A

>

HREF= " http://www.vaccinationnews.com/Scandals/March_29_02/Scandal10.htm " >Home

> page</A>

> Here is my answer to the stats they list. I'm sure

> you'll object to her as

> an unbiased source as well but Regush and

> RedFlagsWeekly.com think

> highly enough of her and this article to link it

> from their website.

>

> Informed choice in medical care is of critical

> importance, but that choice

> must include information from both sides of the

> debate.

>

> Exactly, but most people aren't exposed to the

> downside of vaccination. So,

> I pipe up every now and then to show people that

> there can be a downside.

> What they do with the information is up to them.

>

>

> One also must ask oneself, at what point does my

> informed choice become a

> violation of someone else's rights? Do I have a

> right to put someone else's

> health at risk to save myself some worry?

>

> If the vaccines work then how is a non-vaccinated

> person putting you at risk?

>

>

> And do others have the right to force vaccination on

> me and my children to

> save themselves some worry?

>

> <A

> HREF= " http://66.70.140.217/vaccines/topp2.html " >Our

> families story about the devastating effects of the

> Hepatitis B vaccine

> law June 1999</A>

>

> I'm sure I can list just as many personal stories of

> vaccine damage as you

> can peer reviewed articles. Of course, yours will

> carry more weight than the

> hysterical ramblings of the distraught parents of

> injured children or of

> injured adults themselves. But you see, there have

> never been any long term,

> independent, double blind studies done on any

> vaccine. There have been no

> studies comparing non-vaccinated to vaccinated

> children. Until this is

> done, it's left to each of us to draw our own

> conclusions.

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

=====

http://www.iven.org.uk

deutschsprachige impfkritikliste:

impfkritik_deutsch/

East Dorset Home Education: http://www.he-ed.org.uk

" The function of a civil resister is to provoke response. And we will continue

to provoke until they respond. They are not in control. We are. " (Mahatma

Gandhi)

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Vaccine Debate

XETV FOX6 San Diego, CA

May 1, 2007

http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=uyxan4bab.0.ltcln4bab.oblmlwbab.7906 & ts=S0240 & p=http%3A%\

2F%2Fwww.fox6.com%2Fmostpopular%2Fstory.aspx%3Fcontent_id%3D0cea6486-478d-4bc5-b\

036-17ca3d00c896:

Watch this video:

A Poway mother is suing the drug companies, accusing their vaccines of

contributing to her son's autism.

" My baby was developing typically. He was a normal child, and then something did

happen, " said Becky Estepp.

What happened, Estepp insists, was a viral assault on her baby boy, .

At 9 months old, he went in for his MMR and Chickenpox vaccines. Estepp says

within hours, had developed horrible diarrhea, which lasted 10 days. He

also battled chronic fevers and sinus infections.

" Those are live viruses, " said Estepp. " I theorize that his immune system was

assaulted at 9 months, and it compromised it. "

Estepp continued with 's vaccines. She says her son's body couldn't handle

it, and she watched her baby slip away.

" He wouldn't look at us when I called his name. He'd rather just be by himself, "

said Estepp.

Just before his third birthday, was diagnosed with autism. He is now 9 and

his younger brother Jack is 7. Jack was not vaccinated and shows no signs of

autism.

Today, 1 in 150 children are diagnosed with autism. Most agree that the disorder

is caused by both genetic and environmental factors. For the Estepps, they

believe the genetic cause for was a family history of weakened immune

systems, and the environmental was the vaccinations.

The Estepps and 4800 other families with autistic children filed a lawsuit

against the drug companies in June, 2002. This June, 3 federal judges will begin

to hear their cases in Washington, DC.

" This has been looked at in different countries, by governmental agencies and by

academic people and they really can't find a link behind vaccines and autism, "

counters Dr. Mark Sawyer, a pediatrician at Rady Children's Hospital.

In fact, the American Academy of Pediatrics continues to recommend that all

children receive all 36 vaccinations.

" What parents need to keep in mind is that the diseases we are trying to protect

through immunization are still out there, " said Dr. Sawyer. " We still have

whooping cough here in San Diego. There was an outbreak of mumps in 2006. "

But Doctor Kurt Woeller, who treats autistic children thinks pediatricians

should look at each child, and their family history, before recommending how

many vaccines they receive.

" What I know personally, as a physician, is the stories parents tell me, over

and over again. How their kids regressed into autism sometimes a day after

getting a series of shots. I believe that we are looking at an overuse and

indiscriminate use of vaccines. "