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Re: Andy (et. al.) - HELP! - Increase In Lead on Hair Test (and other issues) -

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Posted

Hi Anne,

I looked at all of Asher's test results. What a big difference

between the hair tests of April and Aug, 2007! The trends seem the

same, at least copper was going up in April, and the adrenal signs are

there on both tests.

I don't have anything helpful to say. I wonder what you are doing

now, as far as diet or supplementation, about the copper.

What are you doing for adrenal support?

I wonder if he might have been swimming somewhere that was

contaminated with copper and lead.

If it was me I would order another hair test. And I would ask the

doctor to do the CBC plus differential (to get all the liver enzyme

tests) and anything else that they can think of.

J

>

> Andy,

>

> I started drafting this will the simple hope that you might shed some

> light on the most recent hair test I ran on my son Asher (5.6 years

> old, 40 lbs), which showed a very significant increase in lead on the

> Potentially Toxic Elements portion of this test over his prior

> tests. This is the 8th hair test I have run on Asher. We have

> chelated approximately 70 rounds on your protocol with ALA and DMSA

> (currently at 16 mgs/13 mgs, respectively, every 2.5 hours during the

> day, 3-3.5 at night).

>

> In case you are willing to have a look, I have created a folder in

> the files section titled " Asher Malitsky Test Results " which contains

> his last seven hair tests and a chart detailing his blood labs. I

> have requested a copy of the first hair test, done in May of 2005.

>

> Of course, as I was trying to give you a bit of background, I got

> confused as to what might be helpful and what might not be, so

> probably included too much and/or very scattered information. I seem

> to be having a problem seeing the forest for the trees in this

> endeavor these days..... My apologies in advance.

>

> We began chelating Asher in late May or early June of 2005. The lead

> on his first seven hair tests made some kind of sense relative to the

> other lead measurements. The lead on the most recent hair test is in

> the red. I am not sure how to read this.

>

> Asher has made lots and lots of progress since we began chelating him

> on your protocol, and has made the most progress since the end of

> December, 2006. He is verbal, though we have to pull stuff out of

> him like crazy, and would probably qualify with a phonological

> disorder or something of that type. He is no longer hypotonic, most

> of his eye stims are gone, and lots of other good has come of all of

> this. He can read lots of words, do lots of smart stuff, be around

> lots of other people, etc., but he is still pretty affected.

>

> While my initial reaction to the most recent test was sheer horror,

> his progress during the period represented by these tests does make

> we wonder how I should interpret them. I am almost thinking there is

> lots of good in this if I can just go the right direction from here.

> It is very clear that we are very far from being done. That is in

> some ways a blessing. I guess the burning question right now for me

> is how to understand the lead / copper issues that present on Asher's

> most recent hair tests.

>

> Things are the things that I can identify that changed between hair

> tests:

>

> 1. I reduced his calcium supplementation somewhat because he

> started back on cow milk products, though it is only in the last two

> weeks that we got under 500 mgs per day;

>

> 2. Vitamin D3 is higher (up to 600 mgs/day in divided doses);

>

> 3. K2 is higher (5-6 mgs/day in divided doses);

>

> 4. Magnesium is higher (about 650 mgs per day in divided doses, up

> from 450 mgs);

>

> 5. Dropped CLO (seemed very likely to me that we might have

> Vitamin A toxicity issues - before getting the CLO onboard, we had

> dabbled somewhat with higher dose Mycellized A and saw some signs of

> vitamin A toxicity that we couldn't attribute directly to anything

> else);

>

> 6. Added transfer factor (I saw a nice move towards being a more

> social being with this, which despite other issues, remains with us);

>

> 7. I chelated Asher somewhat more frequently than we ordinarily

> manage.

>

> A Little Background:

>

> Asher was born full term, induced with pitocin. I had an epidural.

> He nursed easily and exclusively for 3 months. After his third month

> shots (he got the full load), about which time I introduced some

> formula to supplement breast milk, he got thrush pretty badly and

> started on the long road of constipation we followed for several

> years. His fourth month he stopped gaining skills at an appropriate

> rate. He went down early. Much to my dismay, he is fully vaccinated

> through his three year vaccinations (though we did skip the flu

> shots).

>

> Constipation ruled our lives for a while and he was put on everything

> to try to manage that. He was on Lactulose for a while (and a soy

> formula - YUCK), then on Miralax for about six months until I pulled

> the plug on that stuff (I am just thankful his pediatrician was

> hesitant about the Miralax to start). After the Miralax, we used

> glycerine suppositories, mag and C, and whatever else was needed to

> get him to go after that (Senna, digestive enzymes, etc).

>

> On your recommendation we got Asher on Armour Thyroid, though we have

> had a hard time titrating his dose. He has also had major

> adrenal/hypoglycemia issues, which have made it hard to get the

> thyroid stuff manageable/managed. Per the hair testing, his adrenals

> appear to be improving. Hypoglycemic reactions are at an all time

> low now.

>

> Armour helped enormously with Asher's constipation, though it has

> been more of an issue again now that yeast is somewhat more under

> control (with Diflucan, up to 200 mgs per day, which tends to

> constipate him). This timing also concides with his lead being up on

> the hair test, so I don't know whether whatever is going on there is

> encouraging the constipation.... Again, he has made a tremendous

> amount of progress in the last 6 months. He was on 1.5 grains of

> Armour on his last blood test. We have moved him up to 2 grains as

> well since then. He seems to be handling it pretty well. I am

> thinking that perhaps having him on the higher armour is helping his

> yeast. Hard to tell sometimes what is doing what..... We had him up

> to 3 grains at one point, but the adrenal stress was too much to

> bear, even though I am as easy on him when I sense stress as almost

> any parent could be...

>

> Back to the gut.... Asher has always been a gut-disaster kid. We

> had a DDI CDSA from early 2005 that I don't have handy, but I

> remember that we had no good stuff, mild bad stuff, and lots of

> the " gamma strep " class stuff, which we were told by our former DAN

> not to do anything about. I also remember that SIgA was low (maybe

> 20?), which is one reason it took me many trials to be convinced that

> Asher might actually be vitamin A toxic.

>

> I got Asher up and running on HNI enzymes early, but it took us a

> long time to be able to get Asher to tolerate probiotics (I suspect I

> couldn't handle the fact that the probiotics were doing what they

> were supposed to be doing, not that he wasn't tolerating them), but

> as of December, 2006, he has been really up and running with VSL-#3

> and while it may not be perfect, I think this has been a big key to

> his progress of late. I also have him on a supplement that contain

> NAG. There seems to be some relationship there between him taking

> that (also happened when I started him on L-Glutamine) and his breath

> and poops smelling sweet-like, but distinctive. Could this be

> yeast/yeast die-off? Too many dimensions to this puzzle, but he and

> his poops overall seem better with the NAG than without, so I have

> left it in for the moment.

>

> The VSL seemed to bring out strep in his throat (I had previously had

> him tested because of his OCDish/perseverative behaviors and he had

> always tested negative. Perhaps VSL helps shift to T2 and we were

> terribly lacking?) which got him two rounds of amoxicillin, which in

> turn diminished the OCD behaviors enormously. Despite all of that,

> we still don't have normal poops. More often than not they are

> lightish green. I still think some of this is yeast, since it seems

> to more diflucan we give him the more brown his poops get (I just

> sent a DDI CDSA with parasitology x3 off today to see if I can't

> identify any specific problem), but in light of this most recent hair

> test, I can't avoid the copper issue, and liver issues scare me. I

> have always wondered whether bile production or gall stones were an

> issue for Asher. I was hoping you might comment on that. I have

> always found this very confusing. Taurine didn't seem to help the

> poops turn a better color and did seem to aggravate the

> hypoglycemia. I have had him off the Taurine for about two months.

> He does have a history of some serious oxalate poops (very grainy)

> but those don't seem to be happening anymore since yeast is somewhat

> more managed that before (it was at its worse when Asher was on

> Valtrex, though he did potty train himself within 6 hours of his

> first dose).

>

> Asher's two most recent hair tests are the only two tests where

> copper has been high save for the first test in May of 2005. After

> the first hair test, I had Asher on 1000 mcgs of molybdenum (per your

> recommendation). Once it came down, I dropped the extra molybdenum

> and he was getting between 100 and 400 mgs per day, in divided

> doses. Asher's copper levels stayed pretty steady per hair testing

> for the next 5 tests, Asher's copper levels didn't go up much, so I

> did not give Asher a lot of molybdenum after the first while.

>

> I have almost always had Asher at about weight + 20 of zinc, though I

> have increased in response to the most recent test and observations

> of his behavior. When his zinc is low he tends to put his fingers in

> his mouth. Giving him 115 mgs of zinc per day in divided doses seems

> to have quenched most of this behavior. We do seem to have better

> success with opti-zinc (zinc monomethionine). Is there any reason

> not to use this form of zinc? I do have reservations about having

> him on so much zinc, but he really does seem to need it. Coming off

> our last round of ALA/DMSA, Asher actually got a cold, which he

> hasn't done for eons, especially not without the help of some

> specific immune boosting supplement. I am pretty sure this kid is

> pretty viral.

>

> Based on the most recent hair tests, I am considering continuing the

> DMSA, but stopping using ALA for a while to see if the copper won't

> come down. My biggest concern is that we might have undiagnosed

> liver issues (which is one of the reasons I have always wanted to use

> ALA - ALA is generally good for the liver, right?). Is this a

> reasonable concern? His liver enzymes have been in range for some

> time now (they came down initially with the introduction of OLE and

> Virastop, though we can't do much on the anti-viral front without a

> major yeast fallout), but I know from Hair Test Interpretation that

> this won't show problems from copper issues. And he does clearly

> have digestive issues. How does this all fit in the picture?

>

> So, I guess my real questions are:

>

> A. What should I make, if anything, of Asher's lead result on the

> most recent hair test? I have ordered another. If you think it

> would be worthwhile to run it to see if there was some contamination

> or other abberation, please let me know. It should be here within

> the week;

>

> B. What should I do about chelation based on our test results? I

> am prepared to drop the ALA, but am not keen to stop chelation. We

> see most of our wows with immune system stuff, but I think chelation

> is the key. And it appears from the most recent test that our lead

> issues might even have been more significant than I thought;

>

> C. I need to request an Rx for a blood draw from Asher's doctor

> soon. Aside from the basics (including TSH, Free T3, Free T4), do

> you have tests you recommend we run? Should we redo ferritin?; and

>

> D. Do you have any other insight you might to share with me about

> how I might best move forward with Asher's recovery?

>

> I know this is a lot of information and most of it may be irrelevant

> in case, but I thought I would go ahead and get most of it out there

> for you to see in case you had a time to take a look. And if you do

> and want more information, just let me know. Surprising, perhaps,

> but there is actually a lot I left out :-)

>

> Thanks in advance.

>

> Anne

>

> P.S. Anyone else want to chime it on this stuff? I would love to

> hear it!

>

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Posted
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J.,

Thanks for answering. Comments interspersed....

>

>

> Hi Anne,

>

> I looked at all of Asher's test results. What a big difference

> between the hair tests of April and Aug, 2007! The trends seem the

> same, at least copper was going up in April, and the adrenal signs

> are there on both tests.

>

> I don't have anything helpful to say. I wonder what you are doing

> now, as far as diet or supplementation, about the copper.

>

> What are you doing for adrenal support?

>

> I wonder if he might have been swimming somewhere that was

> contaminated with copper and lead.

Asher has always had adrenal issues, but in terms of how he seems day-

to-day, they are much less significant now than in the past. He

really is a fun-loving kid with lots of energy and very, very little

anxiety. I am pretty soft on him though....

As far as adrenal support goes, he is on lots of adrenal cortex

extract (250 mgs 3 x per day), vitamin C (2000 mgs spread out

throughout the day), B2 (300 mgs per day in divided doses), B5 (250

mgs in divided doses), B6 (p-5-p form, 150 mgs per day in divided

doses), and then a co-enzyme B complex (KAL brand) equal to between a

B-75 or B-100).

The copper thing I almost thought would prove to be contamination,

but that is looking unlikely. Asher did do a lot of swimming between

the April and August tests, but not prior to the April one. As far

as I can tell, his only significant source of copper (besides the

pool - he went in my FIL's hot tub once this summer, does that count

too?) is avocadoes. There is none in his supplements and he doesn't

eat nuts or chocolate. We don't have copper pipes, and he drinks RO

H2O. We had a new water filter installed last December and I used

that for Asher until I saw his April hair test, assumed that was it

if the test was not contaminated, and went back to RO for the

summer.

The lead is what really freaked me out, though the copper came in a

close second. I can't imagine what that lead value means if it is

real (and I have no reason to think it is not). We were gone from

our home for about 6 weeks this summer.

We spent 3 weeks in Charlotte, NC, in a 12 year old house (we swam in

the pool there every day, I never let Asher take a shower in the

ceramic tubs), then 2 weeks on an island off the east coast (we took

outdoor showers there the whole time and only swam in the ocean),

then spent time in NH in a old house (1720's or so), but I really

tried to be super careful there. Asher was pretty much kept to the

new part of the house, showered in the new showers, etc. That said,

he did sleep in the old part of the house. But we were only there

for one week, and he certainly did not lick the paint or play with

paint chips or bathe in a lead tub.

What kinds of swimming places are contaminated with lead?

And, almost most bizarre to me, is that Asher has made more progress

this summer than in any comparable period before, and he looks

healthier. Still a little scrawny, but.... Yasko says that viruses

bind metals, or something like that, and although I don't have any

reason to believe her and do have one reason not to (Andy has said

that she is wrong on that), I do know that we have had lots of nice

reactions to immune boosting stuff this summer.

>

> If it was me I would order another hair test. And I would ask the

> doctor to do the CBC plus differential (to get all the liver enzyme

> tests) and anything else that they can think of.

Thanks for those suggestions. I do have Asher's blood drawn every

three months and I get the basic AST and ALT tested. As of April,

everything came back looking fine (he does have a history of high AST

levels, but they have been within range for while). Are there more

enzymes to test? Or further tests to run? And I suppose it is time

for me to figure out how I get someone to do an ultrasound of the

gall bladder and biliary stuff. Anyone know anyone who has ever had

to go down this path who might be a good resource?

Thanks again, J. :-)

>

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Anne,

There is a more definitive liver test that our ped ran once for us, sorry can't

remember the name and my labs are back where she is sleeping, but I bet if you

ask, Dr. will know what it is, sorry not to be more help.

[ ] Re: Andy (et. al.) - HELP! - Increase In Lead on

Hair Test (and other issues) -

J.,

Thanks for answering. Comments interspersed....

>

>

> Hi Anne,

>

> I looked at all of Asher's test results. What a big difference

> between the hair tests of April and Aug, 2007! The trends seem the

> same, at least copper was going up in April, and the adrenal signs

> are there on both tests.

>

> I don't have anything helpful to say. I wonder what you are doing

> now, as far as diet or supplementation, about the copper.

>

> What are you doing for adrenal support?

>

> I wonder if he might have been swimming somewhere that was

> contaminated with copper and lead.

Asher has always had adrenal issues, but in terms of how he seems day-

to-day, they are much less significant now than in the past. He

really is a fun-loving kid with lots of energy and very, very little

anxiety. I am pretty soft on him though....

As far as adrenal support goes, he is on lots of adrenal cortex

extract (250 mgs 3 x per day), vitamin C (2000 mgs spread out

throughout the day), B2 (300 mgs per day in divided doses), B5 (250

mgs in divided doses), B6 (p-5-p form, 150 mgs per day in divided

doses), and then a co-enzyme B complex (KAL brand) equal to between a

B-75 or B-100).

The copper thing I almost thought would prove to be contamination,

but that is looking unlikely. Asher did do a lot of swimming between

the April and August tests, but not prior to the April one. As far

as I can tell, his only significant source of copper (besides the

pool - he went in my FIL's hot tub once this summer, does that count

too?) is avocadoes. There is none in his supplements and he doesn't

eat nuts or chocolate. We don't have copper pipes, and he drinks RO

H2O. We had a new water filter installed last December and I used

that for Asher until I saw his April hair test, assumed that was it

if the test was not contaminated, and went back to RO for the

summer.

The lead is what really freaked me out, though the copper came in a

close second. I can't imagine what that lead value means if it is

real (and I have no reason to think it is not). We were gone from

our home for about 6 weeks this summer.

We spent 3 weeks in Charlotte, NC, in a 12 year old house (we swam in

the pool there every day, I never let Asher take a shower in the

ceramic tubs), then 2 weeks on an island off the east coast (we took

outdoor showers there the whole time and only swam in the ocean),

then spent time in NH in a old house (1720's or so), but I really

tried to be super careful there. Asher was pretty much kept to the

new part of the house, showered in the new showers, etc. That said,

he did sleep in the old part of the house. But we were only there

for one week, and he certainly did not lick the paint or play with

paint chips or bathe in a lead tub.

What kinds of swimming places are contaminated with lead?

And, almost most bizarre to me, is that Asher has made more progress

this summer than in any comparable period before, and he looks

healthier. Still a little scrawny, but.... Yasko says that viruses

bind metals, or something like that, and although I don't have any

reason to believe her and do have one reason not to (Andy has said

that she is wrong on that), I do know that we have had lots of nice

reactions to immune boosting stuff this summer.

>

> If it was me I would order another hair test. And I would ask the

> doctor to do the CBC plus differential (to get all the liver enzyme

> tests) and anything else that they can think of.

Thanks for those suggestions. I do have Asher's blood drawn every

three months and I get the basic AST and ALT tested. As of April,

everything came back looking fine (he does have a history of high AST

levels, but they have been within range for while). Are there more

enzymes to test? Or further tests to run? And I suppose it is time

for me to figure out how I get someone to do an ultrasound of the

gall bladder and biliary stuff. Anyone know anyone who has ever had

to go down this path who might be a good resource?

Thanks again, J. :-)

>

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Posted
Posted

This may be totally off-base, but the other thing that I forgot I had

done was to introduce melatonin. Could this be related? If anyone

wants to teach me to make one of those little links, that would be

much appreciated:

Abstract

" The nervous system is the primary target for low-levels of lead (Pb)

exposure and the developing brain appears to be especially vulnerable

to Pb neurotoxicity. Chronic low-level Pb exposure causes growth

retardation and intellectual impairment. In the present study the

protective effect of melatonin during exposure to low-levels of Pb in

human SH-SY5Y neuroblastoma cell cultures was assessed. The cells

were exposed to Pb (0.01 to 10 M) for 48 h. Pb inhibited the

proliferation of neuroblastoma cells significantly in a concentration-

dependent manner. A 50% inhibition (IC50) of cell proliferation was

observed at about 5 M Pb. Pb decreased (16% to 62%) the levels of

total cellular glutathione (GSH) in a concentration (0.1 to 10 M)-

dependent manner. Exposure of cells to Pb (5 M) for 48 h resulted in

an eightfold increase in caspase-3 activity and prostaglandin E2

(PGE2) level. Pretreatment with melatonin (10 M) blocked the effects

of Pb on GSH content and caspase-3 activity, and showed significant

improvement in reducing the level of PGE2. The results suggest that

some of the neurotoxic effects of Pb may be partly mediated by

apoptosis and pretreatment with melatonin can prevent these effects.

The present study asserts the neuroprotective effect of melatonin in

conditions of Pb-induced toxicity in neuroblastoma cell cultures. "

Published in: International Journal of Toxicology, Volume 25, Issue

6 September 2006 , pages 459 - 464

> >

> >

> > Hi Anne,

> >

> > I looked at all of Asher's test results. What a big difference

> > between the hair tests of April and Aug, 2007! The trends seem

the

> > same, at least copper was going up in April, and the adrenal

signs

> > are there on both tests.

> >

> > I don't have anything helpful to say. I wonder what you are doing

> > now, as far as diet or supplementation, about the copper.

> >

> > What are you doing for adrenal support?

> >

> > I wonder if he might have been swimming somewhere that was

> > contaminated with copper and lead.

>

>

> Asher has always had adrenal issues, but in terms of how he seems

day-

> to-day, they are much less significant now than in the past. He

> really is a fun-loving kid with lots of energy and very, very

little

> anxiety. I am pretty soft on him though....

>

> As far as adrenal support goes, he is on lots of adrenal cortex

> extract (250 mgs 3 x per day), vitamin C (2000 mgs spread out

> throughout the day), B2 (300 mgs per day in divided doses), B5 (250

> mgs in divided doses), B6 (p-5-p form, 150 mgs per day in divided

> doses), and then a co-enzyme B complex (KAL brand) equal to between

a

> B-75 or B-100).

>

> The copper thing I almost thought would prove to be contamination,

> but that is looking unlikely. Asher did do a lot of swimming

between

> the April and August tests, but not prior to the April one. As far

> as I can tell, his only significant source of copper (besides the

> pool - he went in my FIL's hot tub once this summer, does that

count

> too?) is avocadoes. There is none in his supplements and he

doesn't

> eat nuts or chocolate. We don't have copper pipes, and he drinks

RO

> H2O. We had a new water filter installed last December and I used

> that for Asher until I saw his April hair test, assumed that was it

> if the test was not contaminated, and went back to RO for the

> summer.

>

> The lead is what really freaked me out, though the copper came in a

> close second. I can't imagine what that lead value means if it is

> real (and I have no reason to think it is not). We were gone from

> our home for about 6 weeks this summer.

>

> We spent 3 weeks in Charlotte, NC, in a 12 year old house (we swam

in

> the pool there every day, I never let Asher take a shower in the

> ceramic tubs), then 2 weeks on an island off the east coast (we

took

> outdoor showers there the whole time and only swam in the ocean),

> then spent time in NH in a old house (1720's or so), but I really

> tried to be super careful there. Asher was pretty much kept to the

> new part of the house, showered in the new showers, etc. That

said,

> he did sleep in the old part of the house. But we were only there

> for one week, and he certainly did not lick the paint or play with

> paint chips or bathe in a lead tub.

>

> What kinds of swimming places are contaminated with lead?

>

> And, almost most bizarre to me, is that Asher has made more

progress

> this summer than in any comparable period before, and he looks

> healthier. Still a little scrawny, but.... Yasko says that

viruses

> bind metals, or something like that, and although I don't have any

> reason to believe her and do have one reason not to (Andy has said

> that she is wrong on that), I do know that we have had lots of nice

> reactions to immune boosting stuff this summer.

> >

> > If it was me I would order another hair test. And I would ask the

> > doctor to do the CBC plus differential (to get all the liver

enzyme

> > tests) and anything else that they can think of.

>

> Thanks for those suggestions. I do have Asher's blood drawn every

> three months and I get the basic AST and ALT tested. As of April,

> everything came back looking fine (he does have a history of high

AST

> levels, but they have been within range for while). Are there more

> enzymes to test? Or further tests to run? And I suppose it is

time

> for me to figure out how I get someone to do an ultrasound of the

> gall bladder and biliary stuff. Anyone know anyone who has ever

had

> to go down this path who might be a good resource?

>

> Thanks again, J. :-)

> >

>

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Posted
Posted

Thanks, . I will look into that.

Anne

> >

> >

> > Hi Anne,

> >

> > I looked at all of Asher's test results. What a big difference

> > between the hair tests of April and Aug, 2007! The trends seem

the

> > same, at least copper was going up in April, and the adrenal

signs

> > are there on both tests.

> >

> > I don't have anything helpful to say. I wonder what you are

doing

> > now, as far as diet or supplementation, about the copper.

> >

> > What are you doing for adrenal support?

> >

> > I wonder if he might have been swimming somewhere that was

> > contaminated with copper and lead.

>

> Asher has always had adrenal issues, but in terms of how he seems

day-

> to-day, they are much less significant now than in the past. He

> really is a fun-loving kid with lots of energy and very, very

little

> anxiety. I am pretty soft on him though....

>

> As far as adrenal support goes, he is on lots of adrenal cortex

> extract (250 mgs 3 x per day), vitamin C (2000 mgs spread out

> throughout the day), B2 (300 mgs per day in divided doses), B5

(250

> mgs in divided doses), B6 (p-5-p form, 150 mgs per day in divided

> doses), and then a co-enzyme B complex (KAL brand) equal to

between a

> B-75 or B-100).

>

> The copper thing I almost thought would prove to be

contamination,

> but that is looking unlikely. Asher did do a lot of swimming

between

> the April and August tests, but not prior to the April one. As

far

> as I can tell, his only significant source of copper (besides the

> pool - he went in my FIL's hot tub once this summer, does that

count

> too?) is avocadoes. There is none in his supplements and he

doesn't

> eat nuts or chocolate. We don't have copper pipes, and he drinks

RO

> H2O. We had a new water filter installed last December and I used

> that for Asher until I saw his April hair test, assumed that was

it

> if the test was not contaminated, and went back to RO for the

> summer.

>

> The lead is what really freaked me out, though the copper came in

a

> close second. I can't imagine what that lead value means if it is

> real (and I have no reason to think it is not). We were gone from

> our home for about 6 weeks this summer.

>

> We spent 3 weeks in Charlotte, NC, in a 12 year old house (we

swam in

> the pool there every day, I never let Asher take a shower in the

> ceramic tubs), then 2 weeks on an island off the east coast (we

took

> outdoor showers there the whole time and only swam in the ocean),

> then spent time in NH in a old house (1720's or so), but I really

> tried to be super careful there. Asher was pretty much kept to

the

> new part of the house, showered in the new showers, etc. That

said,

> he did sleep in the old part of the house. But we were only there

> for one week, and he certainly did not lick the paint or play

with

> paint chips or bathe in a lead tub.

>

> What kinds of swimming places are contaminated with lead?

>

> And, almost most bizarre to me, is that Asher has made more

progress

> this summer than in any comparable period before, and he looks

> healthier. Still a little scrawny, but.... Yasko says that

viruses

> bind metals, or something like that, and although I don't have

any

> reason to believe her and do have one reason not to (Andy has

said

> that she is wrong on that), I do know that we have had lots of

nice

> reactions to immune boosting stuff this summer.

> >

> > If it was me I would order another hair test. And I would ask

the

> > doctor to do the CBC plus differential (to get all the liver

enzyme

> > tests) and anything else that they can think of.

>

> Thanks for those suggestions. I do have Asher's blood drawn every

> three months and I get the basic AST and ALT tested. As of April,

> everything came back looking fine (he does have a history of high

AST

> levels, but they have been within range for while). Are there

more

> enzymes to test? Or further tests to run? And I suppose it is

time

> for me to figure out how I get someone to do an ultrasound of the

> gall bladder and biliary stuff. Anyone know anyone who has ever

had

> to go down this path who might be a good resource?

>

> Thanks again, J. :-)

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Posted
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I have to agree with after looking at that test. I would redo

it. It seems odd that his lead would be that high. He does have 10

in the middle white/green that are short bars. But yeah, redo this.

Also, you need to treat the adrenals, or you will not control the

thyroid. As you treat the thyroid you will see the adrenals get

worse unless they are supported also. (I can personally attest to

that) The adrenals will get further stressed using Armour or T

whatever's without treating them with hydrocortisone. I have not

known of the adrenals just correcting themselves without any help in

toxicity. That is likely why you cannot get his Armour dose

perfected. It would also help him tolerate chelation and everyday

much better if it was treated. You might want to visit the

stopthyroidmaddness website on how to treat those adrenals. And

confer with your doc. I have also been told by my hormone friends on

the other board, that when the adrenals are treated the dose of

needed armour will go down a bit. Also, untreated adrenals will

cause the hypoglycemic problem, it will not get better until the

adrenals are regulated. Chromium picolinate helps if taken with

each meal for this.

The fact that diflucan improves his stools, indicates a fungal

issue.

Is he on liver support? He needs this to deal with copper and for

chelation.

At best redo the hair test, get adrenal help, continue the minerals,

probiotics, and some antifungal and hold on until the hair test

comes back. Try to pinpoint possible external contamination source

for his hair at the time of testing, or near it. A few days prior

etc.

> >

> > Andy,

> >

> > I started drafting this will the simple hope that you might shed

some

> > light on the most recent hair test I ran on my son Asher (5.6

years

> > old, 40 lbs), which showed a very significant increase in lead

on the

> > Potentially Toxic Elements portion of this test over his prior

> > tests. This is the 8th hair test I have run on Asher. We have

> > chelated approximately 70 rounds on your protocol with ALA and

DMSA

> > (currently at 16 mgs/13 mgs, respectively, every 2.5 hours

during the

> > day, 3-3.5 at night).

> >

> > In case you are willing to have a look, I have created a folder

in

> > the files section titled " Asher Malitsky Test Results " which

contains

> > his last seven hair tests and a chart detailing his blood labs.

I

> > have requested a copy of the first hair test, done in May of

2005.

> >

> > Of course, as I was trying to give you a bit of background, I

got

> > confused as to what might be helpful and what might not be, so

> > probably included too much and/or very scattered information. I

seem

> > to be having a problem seeing the forest for the trees in this

> > endeavor these days..... My apologies in advance.

> >

> > We began chelating Asher in late May or early June of 2005. The

lead

> > on his first seven hair tests made some kind of sense relative

to the

> > other lead measurements. The lead on the most recent hair test

is in

> > the red. I am not sure how to read this.

> >

> > Asher has made lots and lots of progress since we began

chelating him

> > on your protocol, and has made the most progress since the end

of

> > December, 2006. He is verbal, though we have to pull stuff out

of

> > him like crazy, and would probably qualify with a phonological

> > disorder or something of that type. He is no longer hypotonic,

most

> > of his eye stims are gone, and lots of other good has come of

all of

> > this. He can read lots of words, do lots of smart stuff, be

around

> > lots of other people, etc., but he is still pretty affected.

> >

> > While my initial reaction to the most recent test was sheer

horror,

> > his progress during the period represented by these tests does

make

> > we wonder how I should interpret them. I am almost thinking

there is

> > lots of good in this if I can just go the right direction from

here.

> > It is very clear that we are very far from being done. That is

in

> > some ways a blessing. I guess the burning question right now

for me

> > is how to understand the lead / copper issues that present on

Asher's

> > most recent hair tests.

> >

> > Things are the things that I can identify that changed between

hair

> > tests:

> >

> > 1. I reduced his calcium supplementation somewhat because he

> > started back on cow milk products, though it is only in the last

two

> > weeks that we got under 500 mgs per day;

> >

> > 2. Vitamin D3 is higher (up to 600 mgs/day in divided doses);

> >

> > 3. K2 is higher (5-6 mgs/day in divided doses);

> >

> > 4. Magnesium is higher (about 650 mgs per day in divided

doses, up

> > from 450 mgs);

> >

> > 5. Dropped CLO (seemed very likely to me that we might have

> > Vitamin A toxicity issues - before getting the CLO onboard, we

had

> > dabbled somewhat with higher dose Mycellized A and saw some

signs of

> > vitamin A toxicity that we couldn't attribute directly to

anything

> > else);

> >

> > 6. Added transfer factor (I saw a nice move towards being a

more

> > social being with this, which despite other issues, remains with

us);

> >

> > 7. I chelated Asher somewhat more frequently than we

ordinarily

> > manage.

> >

> > A Little Background:

> >

> > Asher was born full term, induced with pitocin. I had an

epidural.

> > He nursed easily and exclusively for 3 months. After his third

month

> > shots (he got the full load), about which time I introduced some

> > formula to supplement breast milk, he got thrush pretty badly

and

> > started on the long road of constipation we followed for several

> > years. His fourth month he stopped gaining skills at an

appropriate

> > rate. He went down early. Much to my dismay, he is fully

vaccinated

> > through his three year vaccinations (though we did skip the flu

> > shots).

> >

> > Constipation ruled our lives for a while and he was put on

everything

> > to try to manage that. He was on Lactulose for a while (and a

soy

> > formula - YUCK), then on Miralax for about six months until I

pulled

> > the plug on that stuff (I am just thankful his pediatrician was

> > hesitant about the Miralax to start). After the Miralax, we

used

> > glycerine suppositories, mag and C, and whatever else was needed

to

> > get him to go after that (Senna, digestive enzymes, etc).

> >

> > On your recommendation we got Asher on Armour Thyroid, though we

have

> > had a hard time titrating his dose. He has also had major

> > adrenal/hypoglycemia issues, which have made it hard to get the

> > thyroid stuff manageable/managed. Per the hair testing, his

adrenals

> > appear to be improving. Hypoglycemic reactions are at an all

time

> > low now.

> >

> > Armour helped enormously with Asher's constipation, though it

has

> > been more of an issue again now that yeast is somewhat more

under

> > control (with Diflucan, up to 200 mgs per day, which tends to

> > constipate him). This timing also concides with his lead being

up on

> > the hair test, so I don't know whether whatever is going on

there is

> > encouraging the constipation.... Again, he has made a

tremendous

> > amount of progress in the last 6 months. He was on 1.5 grains

of

> > Armour on his last blood test. We have moved him up to 2 grains

as

> > well since then. He seems to be handling it pretty well. I am

> > thinking that perhaps having him on the higher armour is helping

his

> > yeast. Hard to tell sometimes what is doing what..... We had

him up

> > to 3 grains at one point, but the adrenal stress was too much to

> > bear, even though I am as easy on him when I sense stress as

almost

> > any parent could be...

> >

> > Back to the gut.... Asher has always been a gut-disaster kid.

We

> > had a DDI CDSA from early 2005 that I don't have handy, but I

> > remember that we had no good stuff, mild bad stuff, and lots of

> > the " gamma strep " class stuff, which we were told by our former

DAN

> > not to do anything about. I also remember that SIgA was low

(maybe

> > 20?), which is one reason it took me many trials to be convinced

that

> > Asher might actually be vitamin A toxic.

> >

> > I got Asher up and running on HNI enzymes early, but it took us

a

> > long time to be able to get Asher to tolerate probiotics (I

suspect I

> > couldn't handle the fact that the probiotics were doing what

they

> > were supposed to be doing, not that he wasn't tolerating them),

but

> > as of December, 2006, he has been really up and running with VSL-

#3

> > and while it may not be perfect, I think this has been a big key

to

> > his progress of late. I also have him on a supplement that

contain

> > NAG. There seems to be some relationship there between him

taking

> > that (also happened when I started him on L-Glutamine) and his

breath

> > and poops smelling sweet-like, but distinctive. Could this be

> > yeast/yeast die-off? Too many dimensions to this puzzle, but he

and

> > his poops overall seem better with the NAG than without, so I

have

> > left it in for the moment.

> >

> > The VSL seemed to bring out strep in his throat (I had

previously had

> > him tested because of his OCDish/perseverative behaviors and he

had

> > always tested negative. Perhaps VSL helps shift to T2 and we

were

> > terribly lacking?) which got him two rounds of amoxicillin,

which in

> > turn diminished the OCD behaviors enormously. Despite all of

that,

> > we still don't have normal poops. More often than not they are

> > lightish green. I still think some of this is yeast, since it

seems

> > to more diflucan we give him the more brown his poops get (I

just

> > sent a DDI CDSA with parasitology x3 off today to see if I can't

> > identify any specific problem), but in light of this most recent

hair

> > test, I can't avoid the copper issue, and liver issues scare

me. I

> > have always wondered whether bile production or gall stones were

an

> > issue for Asher. I was hoping you might comment on that. I

have

> > always found this very confusing. Taurine didn't seem to help

the

> > poops turn a better color and did seem to aggravate the

> > hypoglycemia. I have had him off the Taurine for about two

months.

> > He does have a history of some serious oxalate poops (very

grainy)

> > but those don't seem to be happening anymore since yeast is

somewhat

> > more managed that before (it was at its worse when Asher was on

> > Valtrex, though he did potty train himself within 6 hours of his

> > first dose).

> >

> > Asher's two most recent hair tests are the only two tests where

> > copper has been high save for the first test in May of 2005.

After

> > the first hair test, I had Asher on 1000 mcgs of molybdenum (per

your

> > recommendation). Once it came down, I dropped the extra

molybdenum

> > and he was getting between 100 and 400 mgs per day, in divided

> > doses. Asher's copper levels stayed pretty steady per hair

testing

> > for the next 5 tests, Asher's copper levels didn't go up much,

so I

> > did not give Asher a lot of molybdenum after the first while.

> >

> > I have almost always had Asher at about weight + 20 of zinc,

though I

> > have increased in response to the most recent test and

observations

> > of his behavior. When his zinc is low he tends to put his

fingers in

> > his mouth. Giving him 115 mgs of zinc per day in divided doses

seems

> > to have quenched most of this behavior. We do seem to have

better

> > success with opti-zinc (zinc monomethionine). Is there any

reason

> > not to use this form of zinc? I do have reservations about

having

> > him on so much zinc, but he really does seem to need it. Coming

off

> > our last round of ALA/DMSA, Asher actually got a cold, which he

> > hasn't done for eons, especially not without the help of some

> > specific immune boosting supplement. I am pretty sure this kid

is

> > pretty viral.

> >

> > Based on the most recent hair tests, I am considering continuing

the

> > DMSA, but stopping using ALA for a while to see if the copper

won't

> > come down. My biggest concern is that we might have undiagnosed

> > liver issues (which is one of the reasons I have always wanted

to use

> > ALA - ALA is generally good for the liver, right?). Is this a

> > reasonable concern? His liver enzymes have been in range for

some

> > time now (they came down initially with the introduction of OLE

and

> > Virastop, though we can't do much on the anti-viral front

without a

> > major yeast fallout), but I know from Hair Test Interpretation

that

> > this won't show problems from copper issues. And he does

clearly

> > have digestive issues. How does this all fit in the picture?

> >

> > So, I guess my real questions are:

> >

> > A. What should I make, if anything, of Asher's lead result on

the

> > most recent hair test? I have ordered another. If you think it

> > would be worthwhile to run it to see if there was some

contamination

> > or other abberation, please let me know. It should be here

within

> > the week;

> >

> > B. What should I do about chelation based on our test

results? I

> > am prepared to drop the ALA, but am not keen to stop chelation.

We

> > see most of our wows with immune system stuff, but I think

chelation

> > is the key. And it appears from the most recent test that our

lead

> > issues might even have been more significant than I thought;

> >

> > C. I need to request an Rx for a blood draw from Asher's

doctor

> > soon. Aside from the basics (including TSH, Free T3, Free T4),

do

> > you have tests you recommend we run? Should we redo ferritin?;

and

> >

> > D. Do you have any other insight you might to share with me

about

> > how I might best move forward with Asher's recovery?

> >

> > I know this is a lot of information and most of it may be

irrelevant

> > in case, but I thought I would go ahead and get most of it out

there

> > for you to see in case you had a time to take a look. And if

you do

> > and want more information, just let me know. Surprising,

perhaps,

> > but there is actually a lot I left out :-)

> >

> > Thanks in advance.

> >

> > Anne

> >

> > P.S. Anyone else want to chime it on this stuff? I would love

to

> > hear it!

> >

>

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I think this paper is saying that Melatonin is protective of current lead

exposure but it would do nothing for or to past lead exposure. " In the present

study the protective effect of melatonin " during " exposure to low-levels of Pb

in human....... " .

[ ] Re: Andy (et. al.) - HELP! - Increase In Lead on

Hair Test (and other issues) -

This may be totally off-base, but the other thing that I forgot I had

done was to introduce melatonin. Could this be related? If anyone

wants to teach me to make one of those little links, that would be

much appreciated:

Abstract

" The nervous system is the primary target for low-levels of lead (Pb)

exposure and the developing brain appears to be especially vulnerable

to Pb neurotoxicity. Chronic low-level Pb exposure causes growth

retardation and intellectual impairment. In the present study the

protective effect of melatonin during exposure to low-levels of Pb in

human SH-SY5Y neuroblastoma cell cultures was assessed. The cells

were exposed to Pb (0.01 to 10 M) for 48 h. Pb inhibited the

proliferation of neuroblastoma cells significantly in a concentration-

dependent manner. A 50% inhibition (IC50) of cell proliferation was

observed at about 5 M Pb. Pb decreased (16% to 62%) the levels of

total cellular glutathione (GSH) in a concentration (0.1 to 10 M)-

dependent manner. Exposure of cells to Pb (5 M) for 48 h resulted in

an eightfold increase in caspase-3 activity and prostaglandin E2

(PGE2) level. Pretreatment with melatonin (10 M) blocked the effects

of Pb on GSH content and caspase-3 activity, and showed significant

improvement in reducing the level of PGE2. The results suggest that

some of the neurotoxic effects of Pb may be partly mediated by

apoptosis and pretreatment with melatonin can prevent these effects.

The present study asserts the neuroprotective effect of melatonin in

conditions of Pb-induced toxicity in neuroblastoma cell cultures. "

Published in: International Journal of Toxicology, Volume 25, Issue

6 September 2006 , pages 459 - 464

> >

> >

> > Hi Anne,

> >

> > I looked at all of Asher's test results. What a big difference

> > between the hair tests of April and Aug, 2007! The trends seem

the

> > same, at least copper was going up in April, and the adrenal

signs

> > are there on both tests.

> >

> > I don't have anything helpful to say. I wonder what you are doing

> > now, as far as diet or supplementation, about the copper.

> >

> > What are you doing for adrenal support?

> >

> > I wonder if he might have been swimming somewhere that was

> > contaminated with copper and lead.

>

>

> Asher has always had adrenal issues, but in terms of how he seems

day-

> to-day, they are much less significant now than in the past. He

> really is a fun-loving kid with lots of energy and very, very

little

> anxiety. I am pretty soft on him though....

>

> As far as adrenal support goes, he is on lots of adrenal cortex

> extract (250 mgs 3 x per day), vitamin C (2000 mgs spread out

> throughout the day), B2 (300 mgs per day in divided doses), B5 (250

> mgs in divided doses), B6 (p-5-p form, 150 mgs per day in divided

> doses), and then a co-enzyme B complex (KAL brand) equal to between

a

> B-75 or B-100).

>

> The copper thing I almost thought would prove to be contamination,

> but that is looking unlikely. Asher did do a lot of swimming

between

> the April and August tests, but not prior to the April one. As far

> as I can tell, his only significant source of copper (besides the

> pool - he went in my FIL's hot tub once this summer, does that

count

> too?) is avocadoes. There is none in his supplements and he

doesn't

> eat nuts or chocolate. We don't have copper pipes, and he drinks

RO

> H2O. We had a new water filter installed last December and I used

> that for Asher until I saw his April hair test, assumed that was it

> if the test was not contaminated, and went back to RO for the

> summer.

>

> The lead is what really freaked me out, though the copper came in a

> close second. I can't imagine what that lead value means if it is

> real (and I have no reason to think it is not). We were gone from

> our home for about 6 weeks this summer.

>

> We spent 3 weeks in Charlotte, NC, in a 12 year old house (we swam

in

> the pool there every day, I never let Asher take a shower in the

> ceramic tubs), then 2 weeks on an island off the east coast (we

took

> outdoor showers there the whole time and only swam in the ocean),

> then spent time in NH in a old house (1720's or so), but I really

> tried to be super careful there. Asher was pretty much kept to the

> new part of the house, showered in the new showers, etc. That

said,

> he did sleep in the old part of the house. But we were only there

> for one week, and he certainly did not lick the paint or play with

> paint chips or bathe in a lead tub.

>

> What kinds of swimming places are contaminated with lead?

>

> And, almost most bizarre to me, is that Asher has made more

progress

> this summer than in any comparable period before, and he looks

> healthier. Still a little scrawny, but.... Yasko says that

viruses

> bind metals, or something like that, and although I don't have any

> reason to believe her and do have one reason not to (Andy has said

> that she is wrong on that), I do know that we have had lots of nice

> reactions to immune boosting stuff this summer.

> >

> > If it was me I would order another hair test. And I would ask the

> > doctor to do the CBC plus differential (to get all the liver

enzyme

> > tests) and anything else that they can think of.

>

> Thanks for those suggestions. I do have Asher's blood drawn every

> three months and I get the basic AST and ALT tested. As of April,

> everything came back looking fine (he does have a history of high

AST

> levels, but they have been within range for while). Are there more

> enzymes to test? Or further tests to run? And I suppose it is

time

> for me to figure out how I get someone to do an ultrasound of the

> gall bladder and biliary stuff. Anyone know anyone who has ever

had

> to go down this path who might be a good resource?

>

> Thanks again, J. :-)

> >

>

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,

I know, but the fact that melatonin has anything to do with lead made

me wonder whether it wasn't behind the hair test peculiarities. I am

going to go ahead and do a new test, though I suspect it will come

back looking equally wierd.

Anne

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi Anne,

> > >

> > > I looked at all of Asher's test results. What a big difference

> > > between the hair tests of April and Aug, 2007! The trends

seem

> the

> > > same, at least copper was going up in April, and the adrenal

> signs

> > > are there on both tests.

> > >

> > > I don't have anything helpful to say. I wonder what you are

doing

> > > now, as far as diet or supplementation, about the copper.

> > >

> > > What are you doing for adrenal support?

> > >

> > > I wonder if he might have been swimming somewhere that was

> > > contaminated with copper and lead.

> >

> >

> > Asher has always had adrenal issues, but in terms of how he

seems

> day-

> > to-day, they are much less significant now than in the past. He

> > really is a fun-loving kid with lots of energy and very, very

> little

> > anxiety. I am pretty soft on him though....

> >

> > As far as adrenal support goes, he is on lots of adrenal cortex

> > extract (250 mgs 3 x per day), vitamin C (2000 mgs spread out

> > throughout the day), B2 (300 mgs per day in divided doses), B5

(250

> > mgs in divided doses), B6 (p-5-p form, 150 mgs per day in

divided

> > doses), and then a co-enzyme B complex (KAL brand) equal to

between

> a

> > B-75 or B-100).

> >

> > The copper thing I almost thought would prove to be

contamination,

> > but that is looking unlikely. Asher did do a lot of swimming

> between

> > the April and August tests, but not prior to the April one. As

far

> > as I can tell, his only significant source of copper (besides

the

> > pool - he went in my FIL's hot tub once this summer, does that

> count

> > too?) is avocadoes. There is none in his supplements and he

> doesn't

> > eat nuts or chocolate. We don't have copper pipes, and he

drinks

> RO

> > H2O. We had a new water filter installed last December and I

used

> > that for Asher until I saw his April hair test, assumed that

was it

> > if the test was not contaminated, and went back to RO for the

> > summer.

> >

> > The lead is what really freaked me out, though the copper came

in a

> > close second. I can't imagine what that lead value means if it

is

> > real (and I have no reason to think it is not). We were gone

from

> > our home for about 6 weeks this summer.

> >

> > We spent 3 weeks in Charlotte, NC, in a 12 year old house (we

swam

> in

> > the pool there every day, I never let Asher take a shower in

the

> > ceramic tubs), then 2 weeks on an island off the east coast (we

> took

> > outdoor showers there the whole time and only swam in the

ocean),

> > then spent time in NH in a old house (1720's or so), but I

really

> > tried to be super careful there. Asher was pretty much kept to

the

> > new part of the house, showered in the new showers, etc. That

> said,

> > he did sleep in the old part of the house. But we were only

there

> > for one week, and he certainly did not lick the paint or play

with

> > paint chips or bathe in a lead tub.

> >

> > What kinds of swimming places are contaminated with lead?

> >

> > And, almost most bizarre to me, is that Asher has made more

> progress

> > this summer than in any comparable period before, and he looks

> > healthier. Still a little scrawny, but.... Yasko says that

> viruses

> > bind metals, or something like that, and although I don't have

any

> > reason to believe her and do have one reason not to (Andy has

said

> > that she is wrong on that), I do know that we have had lots of

nice

> > reactions to immune boosting stuff this summer.

> > >

> > > If it was me I would order another hair test. And I would ask

the

> > > doctor to do the CBC plus differential (to get all the liver

> enzyme

> > > tests) and anything else that they can think of.

> >

> > Thanks for those suggestions. I do have Asher's blood drawn

every

> > three months and I get the basic AST and ALT tested. As of

April,

> > everything came back looking fine (he does have a history of

high

> AST

> > levels, but they have been within range for while). Are there

more

> > enzymes to test? Or further tests to run? And I suppose it is

> time

> > for me to figure out how I get someone to do an ultrasound of

the

> > gall bladder and biliary stuff. Anyone know anyone who has ever

> had

> > to go down this path who might be a good resource?

> >

> > Thanks again, J. :-)

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

Anne,

Either I'm not getting what you mean or I'm not smart enough to follow, either

is a possibility.

[ ] Re: Andy (et. al.) - HELP! - Increase In Lead on

Hair Test (and other issues) -

,

I know, but the fact that melatonin has anything to do with lead made

me wonder whether it wasn't behind the hair test peculiarities. I am

going to go ahead and do a new test, though I suspect it will come

back looking equally wierd.

Anne

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi Anne,

> > >

> > > I looked at all of Asher's test results. What a big difference

> > > between the hair tests of April and Aug, 2007! The trends

seem

> the

> > > same, at least copper was going up in April, and the adrenal

> signs

> > > are there on both tests.

> > >

> > > I don't have anything helpful to say. I wonder what you are

doing

> > > now, as far as diet or supplementation, about the copper.

> > >

> > > What are you doing for adrenal support?

> > >

> > > I wonder if he might have been swimming somewhere that was

> > > contaminated with copper and lead.

> >

> >

> > Asher has always had adrenal issues, but in terms of how he

seems

> day-

> > to-day, they are much less significant now than in the past. He

> > really is a fun-loving kid with lots of energy and very, very

> little

> > anxiety. I am pretty soft on him though....

> >

> > As far as adrenal support goes, he is on lots of adrenal cortex

> > extract (250 mgs 3 x per day), vitamin C (2000 mgs spread out

> > throughout the day), B2 (300 mgs per day in divided doses), B5

(250

> > mgs in divided doses), B6 (p-5-p form, 150 mgs per day in

divided

> > doses), and then a co-enzyme B complex (KAL brand) equal to

between

> a

> > B-75 or B-100).

> >

> > The copper thing I almost thought would prove to be

contamination,

> > but that is looking unlikely. Asher did do a lot of swimming

> between

> > the April and August tests, but not prior to the April one. As

far

> > as I can tell, his only significant source of copper (besides

the

> > pool - he went in my FIL's hot tub once this summer, does that

> count

> > too?) is avocadoes. There is none in his supplements and he

> doesn't

> > eat nuts or chocolate. We don't have copper pipes, and he

drinks

> RO

> > H2O. We had a new water filter installed last December and I

used

> > that for Asher until I saw his April hair test, assumed that

was it

> > if the test was not contaminated, and went back to RO for the

> > summer.

> >

> > The lead is what really freaked me out, though the copper came

in a

> > close second. I can't imagine what that lead value means if it

is

> > real (and I have no reason to think it is not). We were gone

from

> > our home for about 6 weeks this summer.

> >

> > We spent 3 weeks in Charlotte, NC, in a 12 year old house (we

swam

> in

> > the pool there every day, I never let Asher take a shower in

the

> > ceramic tubs), then 2 weeks on an island off the east coast (we

> took

> > outdoor showers there the whole time and only swam in the

ocean),

> > then spent time in NH in a old house (1720's or so), but I

really

> > tried to be super careful there. Asher was pretty much kept to

the

> > new part of the house, showered in the new showers, etc. That

> said,

> > he did sleep in the old part of the house. But we were only

there

> > for one week, and he certainly did not lick the paint or play

with

> > paint chips or bathe in a lead tub.

> >

> > What kinds of swimming places are contaminated with lead?

> >

> > And, almost most bizarre to me, is that Asher has made more

> progress

> > this summer than in any comparable period before, and he looks

> > healthier. Still a little scrawny, but.... Yasko says that

> viruses

> > bind metals, or something like that, and although I don't have

any

> > reason to believe her and do have one reason not to (Andy has

said

> > that she is wrong on that), I do know that we have had lots of

nice

> > reactions to immune boosting stuff this summer.

> > >

> > > If it was me I would order another hair test. And I would ask

the

> > > doctor to do the CBC plus differential (to get all the liver

> enzyme

> > > tests) and anything else that they can think of.

> >

> > Thanks for those suggestions. I do have Asher's blood drawn

every

> > three months and I get the basic AST and ALT tested. As of

April,

> > everything came back looking fine (he does have a history of

high

> AST

> > levels, but they have been within range for while). Are there

more

> > enzymes to test? Or further tests to run? And I suppose it is

> time

> > for me to figure out how I get someone to do an ultrasound of

the

> > gall bladder and biliary stuff. Anyone know anyone who has ever

> had

> > to go down this path who might be a good resource?

> >

> > Thanks again, J. :-)

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Posted
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Anne,

I'm a little late on this, but just want to suggest that if he seems

to be doing well symptom-wise, I would not be too concerned. If he

had a massive copper and lead exposure recently, I think symptoms

would indicate something.

I would wonder about all the swimming possibly causing the elevation

in copper. I believe the algacides in pools can cause contamination

and they can also be absorbed. Or it could be that his liver has

healed to a point where he is better able to dump copper that has

been there all along. Either way, I think the copper reduction

supplements would help. You could retest in a couple of months and

see if the copper goes back down. I don't think it is necessary to

drop the ALA - maybe try every other round?

As to lead, if you are using DMSA then you are doing what you can

to remove the lead - you might consider increasing his dose, though.

I suppose hair contamination with lead is possible. I would think it

would have to be something fairly consistent that got the lead more

embedded into the hair (so it wouldn't be washed off at the lab).

Ocean water could be pretty polluted with lead (and lots of other

toxins). If symptoms do not reflect a lead problem, hair contamination

just seems more likely. Or maybe his body is releasing more lead

from bones right now (due to current or imminent growth spurt?) than

you are getting rid of with chelation. Did you chelate less often

during travel? Just trying to think of possibilities.

If it is hair contamination only, from recent swimming in pools and

ocean, then another hair test 3 months after exposure ends should show

both back to normal.

Really interesting to see the hair test results along with the thyroid

lab results. The hair tests aren't always at the same time as the

thyroid labs, but there does seem to be some rough correlation of

adrenal signs to higher free T3.

His adrenals really need more support. Licorice could be helpful.

I know parents worry about a blood pressure side effect, but I really

don't think this happens when it is needed, and other symptoms would

indicate a problem (fluid retention). In Amalgam Illness, Andy

suggests licorice for 1 week per month.

Another idea is electrolytes. I notice his sodium tends to run on

the low end of the range. So does mine. I needed a lot of salt for

awhile and it really helped with adrenal support. In my case it was

very calming (also reduced my urine output somewhat, which was a good

thing for me). (The low sodium would also suggest licorice could

be a good thing.)

The counting rules were met only on the first test. The other

tests don't even come close to meeting rules. I think that is a

good indication that you are addressing some issues with whatever

diet and supplements you are giving - except for the adrenal sign

which I would say is still under-treated.

--

>

> Andy,

>

> I started drafting this will the simple hope that you might shed some

> light on the most recent hair test I ran on my son Asher (5.6 years

> old, 40 lbs), which showed a very significant increase in lead on the

> Potentially Toxic Elements portion of this test over his prior

> tests. This is the 8th hair test I have run on Asher. We have

> chelated approximately 70 rounds on your protocol with ALA and DMSA

> (currently at 16 mgs/13 mgs, respectively, every 2.5 hours during the

> day, 3-3.5 at night).

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,

Thanks for your response. Comments interspersed.

> >

> > Andy,

> >

> > I started drafting this will the simple hope that you might shed

some

> > light on the most recent hair test I ran on my son Asher (5.6

years

> > old, 40 lbs), which showed a very significant increase in lead

on the

> > Potentially Toxic Elements portion of this test over his prior

> > tests. This is the 8th hair test I have run on Asher. We have

> > chelated approximately 70 rounds on your protocol with ALA and

DMSA

> > (currently at 16 mgs/13 mgs, respectively, every 2.5 hours

during the

> > day, 3-3.5 at night).

>

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> >

> > Anne,

> >

> > I'm a little late on this, but just want to suggest that if he

> seems

> > to be doing well symptom-wise, I would not be too concerned. If

> he

> > had a massive copper and lead exposure recently, I think symptoms

> > would indicate something.

>

> That is kind of my thinking too, but Andy has advised not to chelate

> until he has gotten a chance to look at stuff. I am kind of freaked

> out and not chelating is okay with me for a short while. I am

Great to hear Andy is looking at this. You have so much information

with all the hair tests and the labs - I'm sure that will help.

> taking the opportunity to get more liver support in place. He has

> been on milk thistle (185 mgs per day) and phoschol (1260 mgs per

> day) for a while now, but I just put in the ox bile (I guess I will

> give him one cap every time he eats), and glycine is to follow. He

> has been back on taurine (500 mgs per day) for a week (we stopped

> because it seemed to be causing some blood sugar issues) and some of

> the blood sugar issues are back. I am considering putting in some

> more chromium (he already gets 200 mgs per day in divided doses),

> but have been warned about some pros and cons there.

More liver support makes sense to me.

Amalgam Illness says taurine helps make more insulin which can

lower blood sugar. Getting enough adrenal support should help

with blood sugar balance.

The whole picture around blood sugar balance is so complicated

(at least it is in my mind). I don't kow how you decide what

to tinker with. If the chromium works, that sounds reasonable to

a point, but I saw it really elevated on the January hair test.

Were you supplementing a lot and then took it out?

> > I would wonder about all the swimming possibly causing the

> elevation

> > in copper. I believe the algacides in pools can cause

> contamination

> > and they can also be absorbed.

>

> The only problem with this hypothesis is that he hadn't been

> swimming much at all prior to his April hair test.

So much for my wild speculation :)

> Or it could be that his liver has

> > healed to a point where he is better able to dump copper that has

> > been there all along.

>

> I am hoping this is the case. His poops are certainly much better

> than ever, but we have had him on some pretty high Rx antifungals,

> so I don't know which way the wind is blowing on this.

>

> Either way, I think the copper reduction

> > supplements would help. You could retest in a couple of months

> and

> > see if the copper goes back down. I don't think it is necessary

> to

> > drop the ALA - maybe try every other round?

>

> I am pretty happy to do that, but again, waiting for Andy's okay,

> especially as his usual response is " chelate, chelate, chelate " . If

> he said to wait, I am quite sure he has a good reason, though we

> are getting the signs that he needs to be chelated again.

No question - that is an unusual statement from Andy.

> > just seems more likely. Or maybe his body is releasing more lead

> > from bones right now (due to current or imminent growth spurt?)

> than

> > you are getting rid of with chelation.

>

> I think this really might be it. He has grown a lot lately, to the

> point where everyone is kind of turning their heads. He always

> looked young. Now he pretty much looks like a 5 year old. I am

> thinking this is tied to the Vitamin K, Vitamin D stuff we have been

> doing to help regulate calcium.

I think there is a post in archives where Andy mentions this can

happen with bone growth.

> > Really interesting to see the hair test results along with the

> thyroid

> > lab results. The hair tests aren't always at the same time as the

> > thyroid labs, but there does seem to be some rough correlation of

> > adrenal signs to higher free T3.

>

> Yup. I have decided to strike a balance with him, since I can't

> seem to get the adrenals really where they need to be.

Hopefully Andy will offer something on this front, too.

I could tell from the thyroid labs you were trying to home in

on the right dose. Seemed like the January hair test was good in

terms of no adrenal sign, but that's where the chromium was pretty

elevated.

> > His adrenals really need more support. Licorice could be helpful.

> > I know parents worry about a blood pressure side effect, but I

> really

> > don't think this happens when it is needed, and other symptoms

> would

> > indicate a problem (fluid retention). In Amalgam Illness, Andy

> > suggests licorice for 1 week per month.

>

> I have some deglyccerized (sp?) licorice here. Is this a good

> option?

I am fairly sure it is the glycerrhizin that is important for the

adrenal benefits. I doubt if DGL would hurt, though.

> > Another idea is electrolytes. I notice his sodium tends to run on

> > the low end of the range. So does mine. I needed a lot of salt

> for

> > awhile and it really helped with adrenal support. In my case it

> was

> > very calming (also reduced my urine output somewhat, which was a

> good

> > thing for me). (The low sodium would also suggest licorice could

> > be a good thing.)

>

> Okay, this is a dumb question, but what form of electrolytes should

> I consider? Just add more salt? Heck, I can probably get the kid

> to just eat it straight if I want....

Does he crave salt? That is probably a sign he needs it. I am not

sure what is best with kids, but I would think using more salt in

foods would be fine if he likes the taste. Maybe homemade soups

or stews would be good and you can vary the amount of salt to see

what level tastes better to him. (Soups/stews with meat and fat

might also mask the taste of some extra veggies.)

There are lots of electrolyte drink recipes around. Taste is a

good guide to what he would need. If he won't drink it, it is

probably not the right thing.

One thing you could try is something ready-made like Alka-Seltzer

Gold. I have found there are times when this tastes absolutely

horrible to me and is not the right thing, and other times when it

tastes refreshing and good.

I used to go through 2-3 teaspoons of salt per day in electrolyte

drinks. It tasted good, not too salty. Now I don't need so much

and that concentration of salt tastes horrible to me - I make a

face after just one sip and have to dump it out.

> > The counting rules were met only on the first test. The other

> > tests don't even come close to meeting rules. I think that is a

> > good indication that you are addressing some issues with whatever

> > diet and supplements you are giving - except for the adrenal sign

> > which I would say is still under-treated.

>

> I agree, still undertreated. His very first hair test (which I

> don't have and didn't post) also didn't meet the counting rules, but

> he was pretty well supplemented by then. It did have copper in the

> red, but Andy said the hair test was suspicious and I went ahead and

> chelated.

>

> As for his diet, we have gone through a number of manipulations, but

> now we are basically meat (organic, grass fed, etc.), fruits

> (organic), vegetables (though he doesn't eat a ton of them) cow milk

> yogurt (grass fed, whole milk, not homemade), some juice with mostly

> water.

Does he seem to feel satisfied with this diet?

For me, eating a small amount of GF whole grains or starchy veggies

with my protein works better. Otherwise, I feel hungry and

unsatisfied on the kind of diet you describe. I don't think I have

the right level of adrenal support (still figuring that out), which

may explain my need for a bit of carbs.

I realize some people really are better off without grains, but just

sharing my own experience. Both in terms of feeling satisfied and

dealing with dysbiosis, the best thing for me is a bit of grains vs.

a bit of fruit.

--

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Posted
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> > >

> > > Anne,

> > >

> > > I'm a little late on this, but just want to suggest that if he

> > seems

> > > to be doing well symptom-wise, I would not be too concerned.

If

> > he

> > > had a massive copper and lead exposure recently, I think

symptoms

> > > would indicate something.

> >

> > That is kind of my thinking too, but Andy has advised not to

chelate

> > until he has gotten a chance to look at stuff. I am kind of

freaked

> > out and not chelating is okay with me for a short while. I am

>

>

> Great to hear Andy is looking at this. You have so much

information

> with all the hair tests and the labs - I'm sure that will help.

I hope so, though of course I didn't give him the full details of all

we have done and when. I wasn't sure what was relevant and was

hoping he would ask me to fill in whatever blanks he needs filled in.

>

>

>

>

> > taking the opportunity to get more liver support in place. He

has

> > been on milk thistle (185 mgs per day) and phoschol (1260 mgs per

> > day) for a while now, but I just put in the ox bile (I guess I

will

> > give him one cap every time he eats), and glycine is to follow.

He

> > has been back on taurine (500 mgs per day) for a week (we stopped

> > because it seemed to be causing some blood sugar issues) and some

of

> > the blood sugar issues are back. I am considering putting in

some

> > more chromium (he already gets 200 mgs per day in divided doses),

> > but have been warned about some pros and cons there.

>

>

> More liver support makes sense to me.

>

> Amalgam Illness says taurine helps make more insulin which can

> lower blood sugar.

That was one of the reasons I pulled it, and the fact that poops

hadn't turned brown with it.

> Getting enough adrenal support should help

> with blood sugar balance.

There are times we have that balance struck, then the thyroid stuff

seems to kick up, and we are back in a never ending circle....

>

> The whole picture around blood sugar balance is so complicated

> (at least it is in my mind).

Mine too.

> I don't kow how you decide what

> to tinker with. If the chromium works, that sounds reasonable to

> a point, but I saw it really elevated on the January hair test.

> Were you supplementing a lot and then took it out?

Asher has always had the 200 mgs in his multimineral formula. I have

never supplemented it separately. So, what he was getting on that

hair test was the same he has been getting all along.

>

> > > I would wonder about all the swimming possibly causing the

> > elevation

> > > in copper. I believe the algacides in pools can cause

> > contamination

> > > and they can also be absorbed.

> >

> > The only problem with this hypothesis is that he hadn't been

> > swimming much at all prior to his April hair test.

>

> So much for my wild speculation :)

>

I have been through every machination on this one. Lots of wild

speculations going on at this house, none of them likely rooted in

reality :-)

> > Or it could be that his liver has

> > > healed to a point where he is better able to dump copper that

has

> > > been there all along.

> >

> > I am hoping this is the case. His poops are certainly much

better

> > than ever, but we have had him on some pretty high Rx

antifungals,

> > so I don't know which way the wind is blowing on this.

> >

> > Either way, I think the copper reduction

> > > supplements would help. You could retest in a couple of months

> > and

> > > see if the copper goes back down. I don't think it is

necessary

> > to

> > > drop the ALA - maybe try every other round?

> >

> > I am pretty happy to do that, but again, waiting for Andy's okay,

> > especially as his usual response is " chelate, chelate, chelate " .

If

> > he said to wait, I am quite sure he has a good reason, though we

> > are getting the signs that he needs to be chelated again.

>

>

> No question - that is an unusual statement from Andy.

>

>

> > > just seems more likely. Or maybe his body is releasing more

lead

> > > from bones right now (due to current or imminent growth spurt?)

> > than

> > > you are getting rid of with chelation.

> >

> > I think this really might be it. He has grown a lot lately, to

the

> > point where everyone is kind of turning their heads. He always

> > looked young. Now he pretty much looks like a 5 year old. I am

> > thinking this is tied to the Vitamin K, Vitamin D stuff we have

been

> > doing to help regulate calcium.

>

>

> I think there is a post in archives where Andy mentions this can

> happen with bone growth.

Thanks for the tip. I will dig around to see if I can't find it.

>

>

> > > Really interesting to see the hair test results along with the

> > thyroid

> > > lab results. The hair tests aren't always at the same time as

the

> > > thyroid labs, but there does seem to be some rough correlation

of

> > > adrenal signs to higher free T3.

> >

> > Yup. I have decided to strike a balance with him, since I can't

> > seem to get the adrenals really where they need to be.

>

>

>

> Hopefully Andy will offer something on this front, too.

>

> I could tell from the thyroid labs you were trying to home in

> on the right dose. Seemed like the January hair test was good in

> terms of no adrenal sign, but that's where the chromium was pretty

> elevated.

>

Again, not sure why the chromium was high there, since

supplementation was exactly as it always has been on the chromium

front.

>

>

>

> > > His adrenals really need more support. Licorice could be

helpful.

> > > I know parents worry about a blood pressure side effect, but I

> > really

> > > don't think this happens when it is needed, and other symptoms

> > would

> > > indicate a problem (fluid retention). In Amalgam Illness, Andy

> > > suggests licorice for 1 week per month.

> >

> > I have some deglyccerized (sp?) licorice here. Is this a good

> > option?

>

>

> I am fairly sure it is the glycerrhizin that is important for the

> adrenal benefits. I doubt if DGL would hurt, though.

>

>

I will dig around a bit more for the licorice information. It has

been a while since I looked at that as an option. And stress seems

to be kicking up for him again in the last few days (possibly the

taurine?), so I do need to get this figured out.

> > > Another idea is electrolytes. I notice his sodium tends to run

on

> > > the low end of the range. So does mine. I needed a lot of salt

> > for

> > > awhile and it really helped with adrenal support. In my case

it

> > was

> > > very calming (also reduced my urine output somewhat, which was

a

> > good

> > > thing for me). (The low sodium would also suggest licorice

could

> > > be a good thing.)

> >

> > Okay, this is a dumb question, but what form of electrolytes

should

> > I consider? Just add more salt? Heck, I can probably get the

kid

> > to just eat it straight if I want....

>

>

> Does he crave salt? That is probably a sign he needs it.

I salt most stuff that can take salt, but he doesn't really ask for

it. This afternoon and tonight, however, I kept the salt next to us

at the table and put some on his hand for him to lick, and kept

asking for more. So, maybe that is an easy way to start attacking

this.

I am not

> sure what is best with kids, but I would think using more salt in

> foods would be fine if he likes the taste. Maybe homemade soups

> or stews would be good and you can vary the amount of salt to see

> what level tastes better to him. (Soups/stews with meat and fat

> might also mask the taste of some extra veggies.)

Asher comes from the land of texture aversion and though he doesn't

eat anything pureed now, he still doesn't do particularly well with

mixed textures. He was referred to an eating clinic where they

basically force feed kids (oversimplification, I know, but the stuff

sounded terrible to me) and I declined. I also hate cooking, so I

don't do it that much :-). Short version of this is that the kid is

not likely to get much in the way of stew or homemade soup for a

while.... :-)

>

> There are lots of electrolyte drink recipes around. Taste is a

> good guide to what he would need. If he won't drink it, it is

> probably not the right thing.

>

> One thing you could try is something ready-made like Alka-Seltzer

> Gold. I have found there are times when this tastes absolutely

> horrible to me and is not the right thing, and other times when it

> tastes refreshing and good.

>

That is an interesting approach. I will try it.

Apple/Cranberry/Salt juice... MMMMMMM

> I used to go through 2-3 teaspoons of salt per day in electrolyte

> drinks. It tasted good, not too salty. Now I don't need so much

> and that concentration of salt tastes horrible to me - I make a

> face after just one sip and have to dump it out.

>

>

> > > The counting rules were met only on the first test. The other

> > > tests don't even come close to meeting rules. I think that is

a

> > > good indication that you are addressing some issues with

whatever

> > > diet and supplements you are giving - except for the adrenal

sign

> > > which I would say is still under-treated.

> >

> > I agree, still undertreated. His very first hair test (which I

> > don't have and didn't post) also didn't meet the counting rules,

but

> > he was pretty well supplemented by then. It did have copper in

the

> > red, but Andy said the hair test was suspicious and I went ahead

and

> > chelated.

> >

> > As for his diet, we have gone through a number of manipulations,

but

> > now we are basically meat (organic, grass fed, etc.), fruits

> > (organic), vegetables (though he doesn't eat a ton of them) cow

milk

> > yogurt (grass fed, whole milk, not homemade), some juice with

mostly

> > water.

>

>

> Does he seem to feel satisfied with this diet?

Well, he would love to eat cookies/cupcakes and the like, but I only

give him a few GF animal cookies after meals. Sometimes I make him

GF waffles (homemade, actually) and he likes them (I think it is the

maple syrup) but we always seem to struggle after them.

>

> For me, eating a small amount of GF whole grains or starchy veggies

> with my protein works better. Otherwise, I feel hungry and

> unsatisfied on the kind of diet you describe. I don't think I have

> the right level of adrenal support (still figuring that out), which

> may explain my need for a bit of carbs.

Asher has appetite issues that go way back, so figuring out what I

need to do here is hard.

>

> I realize some people really are better off without grains, but

just

> sharing my own experience. Both in terms of feeling satisfied and

> dealing with dysbiosis, the best thing for me is a bit of grains

vs.

> a bit of fruit.

Thanks for all your help. Lots to think about. I really have been

trying to find a good balance for this kiddo on the diet front

knowing he probably doesn't really tolerate a lot, but hoping that he

will soon enough. This dysbiosis/liver/gall bladder thing, whatever

it is, is really problematic. Until I really get a better handle on

what it is I don't know what changes to make/consider. The new poop

test should be here this week, and hopefully out the following week,

so maybe that will give us a hint....

>

> --

Thanks again, .

Anne

>

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